00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.06.03 02:47:40 --- quit: sorear ("leaving") 03:10:32 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@host86-145-3-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 03:14:18 --- quit: Nostferka (Client Quit) 03:40:46 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@host81-129-252-135.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 03:59:33 --- quit: Nostferka (Connection timed out) 04:40:34 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:37:37 --- join: Nostferka (n=tinwell@host217-44-135-209.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 06:47:13 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-a23927f7cce1f150) joined #forth 06:50:34 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 07:27:02 --- nick: Nostferka -> Nostferka_ 07:28:21 --- nick: Nostferka_ -> Nostferka 08:10:25 --- quit: ygrek_ (Remote closed the connection) 08:11:17 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:04:08 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 09:04:45 hi crc 09:04:51 hi snowrichard 09:05:25 I got a snapshot of the toka, but the gz says unexpected end of input when I unpack it 09:05:40 the most recent one? 09:06:10 I didn't check the date. Anyway I've installed SVN and i'll try to get it 09:06:15 ok 09:06:42 I didn't even have GCC 09:08:01 googling toka childers turns up the site 09:08:33 just googling toka brings it up at #10 for me 09:09:41 I 09:10:06 I am on Centos 5 now, and have a centos 5 xen instance too 09:17:35 --- part: snowrichard left #forth 09:26:57 --- join: snowrichar1 (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 09:27:36 --- nick: snowrichar1 -> snowrichard 09:28:17 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 09:28:37 --- join: snowrichar1 (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 09:29:07 ok the svn checkout works fine 09:29:22 good :) 09:29:39 --- nick: snowrichar1 -> snowrichard 09:30:37 [ dup + ] is double 4 double . 8 something like that 09:30:49 that is valid code 09:36:39 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 09:48:53 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:11:48 --- quit: Nostferka () 10:31:10 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 10:45:23 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-dc56a5871fafbfbc) joined #forth 11:02:18 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 11:05:00 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 11:19:07 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-669268c6edd007f7) joined #forth 11:47:02 --- nick: JasonWoo1 -> JasonWoof 11:47:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 11:53:54 --- join: Line_Noise (n=Line_Noi@207.6.94.174) joined #forth 11:58:06 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 12:22:00 --- part: Line_Noise left #forth 12:30:26 --- quit: sorear ("Lost terminal") 12:31:17 --- join: sorear (n=stefan@ip68-6-133-142.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 12:32:25 --- join: yumehito_ (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 12:33:06 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:35:42 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-144-009.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:44:47 --- nick: yumehito_ -> yumehito 12:45:55 --- quit: segher__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:00:00 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0668.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 13:20:55 hello 13:21:22 Hello snowrichard. 13:21:34 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 13:23:30 hiya snowrichard and sorear 13:32:11 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 13:33:17 --- part: snowrichard left #forth 13:59:10 --- join: nighty^ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 14:19:22 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 14:20:29 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@65.125.86.66) joined #forth 14:29:59 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 14:30:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 14:39:08 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 15:10:32 --- part: snowrichard left #forth 15:19:24 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@pdpc/supporter/student/gentoo.contributor.ttuttle) joined #forth 15:20:37 --- join: Eleaf (n=ethan@70.218.201.205.brainstorminternet.net) joined #forth 15:20:41 ooo 15:20:47 Eleaf: Hey! 15:20:54 hi ttuttle 15:21:19 Eleaf: It's an ANSI-compliant (CORE only, obviously, with some EXTs) Forth interpreter that runs on J2ME-capable cell phones. 15:21:41 Eleaf: You can enter text into the console using the regular phone input system, and it emulates a console (smaller than usual, of course). 15:21:58 oh 15:22:03 so what is cool about forth? 15:22:12 Eleaf: It's easy to implement. 15:22:13 I'm at the wikipedia page, but it's so intense 15:22:14 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:22:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 15:22:25 Eleaf: And it's stack-based, like the HP calculators. 15:22:30 slava: Hey. 15:23:07 you are selling it? 15:23:20 Eleaf: No. It's free, if and when I release it. 15:23:28 oh 15:23:34 Eleaf: It's not a compiler, mind you. It's for writing apps *on the phone*. 15:23:44 my phone has a monochrome screen! 15:23:46 Eleaf: I was bored with having a programmable phone that required a computer to program. 15:23:51 Eleaf: It is a monochrome app ;-) 15:23:57 Eleaf: It only uses black and white text. 15:24:04 ah I see, but wouldn't it be hard using a phone's keypad to program? 15:24:11 Eleaf: It is hard ;-) 15:24:16 ;p 15:24:45 Eleaf: I considered a syntax-aware word completion system -- like T9, but keyed to the Forth dictionary so it only completed valid commands, unless freeform text was expected. 15:25:51 consider that while you may not necessarily program an app via the phone's keypad, you could test modules interactively with it via the Forth console. 15:26:13 Quartus: True. I could also give it the ability to load content from URL's. 15:26:34 Quartus: Plus, it's Forth! On a phone! <-- awesome! 15:26:55 Quartus: /me has a shiny new phone. I should write a new, better version of JavaForth. 15:27:07 Sure. 15:27:39 Quartus: Sure to which part? 15:28:15 I'd be suprised if there is any commercial processor with >256 bytes of ram and no Forth port. 15:28:21 they are just so easy 15:28:35 sorear: And it's fun. 15:28:44 Definately. 15:37:58 --- nick: sorear -> sorear_ 15:38:02 --- nick: sorear_ -> sorear 15:46:41 Sure to writing a new one. 15:47:03 Quartus: Okay. 15:47:16 Quartus: /me wishes Java mobile apps could load code at runtime. 15:47:21 Quartus: Then I could actually compile stuff. 15:47:36 Surely an app could query a URL and read in code that way. 15:47:40 Quartus: Maybe I'll make a site where people can submit forth code and get a custom version of JavaForth with their code implemented as primitives. 15:47:47 Quartus: Oh yeah, forth code. Not Java bytecode. 15:47:55 Quartus: Java bytecode would rock. 15:47:55 oh, well. 15:48:02 I'm sure that's a security breach. 15:48:23 Quartus: Yeah. Like being able to actually use your phone is a security breach :-b 15:48:25 ttuttle: Last time I checked, mobile phones were von-neumann machines 15:48:37 Code is data. Threaded code doubly so 15:48:46 sorear: Er, Java != reality. 15:49:24 you don't need to load bytecode to load code 15:49:29 sorear: My current JavaForth is implemented using a lightweight VM *on top of Java*! Most important Forth words are implemented as natives in this language. 15:49:30 just change the level 15:49:47 sorear: I know, but it's faster by at least an order of magnitude if it's bytecode. 15:49:58 Also it's not always quite that simple. 15:50:05 sorear: So there's a "machine code instruction" to add a word to the dictionary, and one to find one ;-) 15:50:10 loading bytecode in jse is pretty simple 15:50:21 you subclass ClassLoader 15:50:23 slava: J*SE != J2ME, by far ;-) 15:50:26 i'm aware 15:50:35 slava: J2ME code is preverified, too, so I'd need to implement that. 15:50:43 Quartus: eh? I'm not that familiar with Java, but surely it's turing strong 15:51:02 ttuttle: oh, ok. jse verifies at class load time 15:51:08 sorear: Nope. You need to jump through hoops to load code in Java. 15:51:11 sorear: Yeah. 15:51:16 sorear: Whoops. 15:51:17 slava: Yeah. 15:51:30 ttuttle: ...what! they can't be bothered to implement a stack effect inferencer? 15:51:36 sorear, the limitations imposed by the system have nothing to do with the completeness of the language. 15:51:40 sorear: that's what the verifier is 15:51:55 it type checks bytecode 15:51:59 slava: I have fully implemented ANSI forth. The problem is it's all implemented in my VM, which runs on the Java VM, which is already slow. 15:52:24 slava: I know ... type inference is really easy, probably easier than parsing class files ... I'm just very suprised they left it out of j2me 15:52:35 There's a "preverifier" for Java Mobile Edition, which (somehow) turns the complicated operation performed by the desktop VM's into an O(n=code size) operation. 15:52:47 sorear: they didn't leave it out 15:52:52 Oh! 15:53:14 does haskell run on mobile phones yet? 15:53:26 ttuttle: I thought a preverifier would be something that attaches Sun Microsystem's signature to bytecode! 15:53:46 no, a preverifier checks stack usage and types 15:53:57 in jse this is done when you start the applicaiton 15:54:04 in j2me they do it ahead of time 15:54:04 sorear: Nah, because it'd have to contain the signature, and you could fake it. 15:54:06 slava: there are at least three projects to implement a haskell->jvm compiler 15:54:15 and none of them are suitable for real-world use? 15:54:27 i asked about mobile phones, not jvm targetting 15:54:35 slava: I don't know, I don't use java and don't follow the projects 15:54:41 slava: But it's still "unhackable". How? Apparently it "helps" the mobile VM verify it, by simplifying the task. 15:54:42 mobile phones are not restricted to running java 15:54:59 ttuttle: well checking type declarations is easier than inferring types. 15:55:07 so maybe the pre-verifier annotates bytecode with type info. 15:55:12 slava: Hmm. 15:55:16 slava: I'll look it up later. 15:55:17 slava: Do any phone browsers support javascript? 15:55:26 sorear: you can run native code on most phones. 15:55:30 factor runs on windows ce 15:55:30 slava: there is a working haskell->javascript compiler 15:55:33 slava: Not true. 15:55:44 we might port to symbian one day 15:55:45 slava: Most phones (non-smartphones) are proprietary OS'es. 15:55:55 i'm talking about smartphones. 15:56:03 Most new phones are java all the way down, though they often have proprietary non-portable private Java libraries. 15:56:04 windows mobile, palm, symbian, etc 15:56:42 All new blackberry apps are java, for instance, including the built-ins -- though they call private libraries. 15:57:13 oh, really? 15:57:20 Does anyone know how Java got this position? 15:57:35 What ever happened to machine code + compiling from source? 15:57:47 sorear: Java is machine code, for a VM. 15:57:55 sorear: Sun lied and told everyone it would make things easier. 15:58:11 sorear: Besides, most Java VM's compile often-used bytecode to native code lately. 15:58:14 ttuttle: Java is machine code, but it was designed for software intepreters. 15:58:23 well, j2me lets one write programs which run on a variety of phones 15:58:31 ttuttle: Hardware interpreters impose very different tradeoffs 15:58:42 also the security model prevents programs from accessing your phone's features without permission 15:58:42 slava: C is portable too 15:58:54 sorear: C *source* is portable. 15:58:57 if you're writing games for a phone, do you want to recompile for 20 different handsets? 15:59:03 sorear: Many people don't want to share their source. 15:59:07 there's no standard portable C API for phone features, like there is for j2me 15:59:16 ttuttle: that's what obfuscators are for :) 15:59:21 slava: Someone could write one, but still you're targetting different CPU's. 15:59:34 sorear: /me slaps sorear with a large obfuscated trout. 15:59:36 if the haskell community got their ass in gear with stable implementations, libraries, etc, they could be in j2me's position as the preferred phone platform 16:00:22 no need to be jealous 16:00:25 slava: Er, that's a large amount of work. 16:00:28 slava: what iyo are we doing wrong? 16:00:55 slava: we already have a specified language, standard libraries, at least one portable bytecode implementation 16:00:59 i don't know, maybe you should find out, instead of lamenting java's popularity 16:01:17 i'm not lamenting it, I'm just curious 16:01:22 it seems kinda weird 16:01:29 kinda obvious really. 16:01:47 dynamic translation is a tool of last resort 16:01:49 the language is similar to C++ which was quite popuar at the time, prevents crappy programmers fro mdoing too much damage, lots of libraries and vendor support 16:02:22 Java-the-language makes sense to me. it fills the niche of secure language pretty well 16:02:32 but the JVM seems just silly 16:02:58 sorear: They go hand-in-hand. The JVM is specially equipped to ensure things are working right. 16:03:12 the JVM is the only semi-decent part of the whole shebang. 16:03:13 sorear: Ideally, a Java app can't ever be in a state like a segfault. Native code could. 16:03:21 i don't know about mobile JVMs, but the desktop JVM is pretty decent 16:03:25 Quartus: Mmm, the language is too word and klunky, 16:03:28 Quartus: yes. the libraries and language are pretty mediocre 16:03:29 Quartus: s/word/wordy/; 16:03:31 --- part: Eleaf left #forth 16:03:38 ttuttle: Native code can be generated in a way to ensure safety. 16:03:41 Quartus: its amazing the JVM preforms like it does, actually, given how inefficient many libraries are 16:03:58 some hard work has gone into JIT, etc 16:03:59 sorear: If I hand you an executable, short of disassembly, can you verify that it is "same"? 16:04:28 ttuttle: No, because native code is a bad distribution platform. It doesn't have enough types. 16:04:40 sorear: "Native code can be generated in a way to ensure safety." 16:04:41 Javabytecode is reasonable to me. 16:04:48 sorear: ? 16:04:49 well you just answered your own question then 16:04:53 ttuttle: + if you have a trusted generator 16:05:02 so you're ok with java bytecode, but not with a vm to run it. 16:05:11 lol 16:05:13 Quartus: he evaluates it with pen and paper. 16:05:26 slava: Back in my day, we didn't even have pen and paper! We had to use sticks in the mud! 16:05:42 slava: And once the mud slid back into place, we had to start over. And God help you if it was raining! 16:05:44 Quartus: Correct. I want to know why they don't have a proper load-time compiler 16:05:56 sorear: WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!111eleventythousand! 16:06:04 Which is simply an optimization of a jvm. 16:06:05 sorear: You want it to compile *everything* when it *starts*? 16:06:12 sorear: Are you insane? 16:06:27 sorear: That's like having Gentoo compile apps whenever you start them, or maybe a little faster. 16:06:34 ttuttle: No, I want it to compile all code when it is loaded. 16:06:41 well, i don't think many VMs are implemented as pure interpreters 16:06:46 sorear: But classloading happens when the JVM starts. 16:06:49 they compile methods to native code as soon as they are called n times 16:07:04 slava: Well, some VM's. Others do compile at load time -- the "server" ones, IIRC. 16:07:05 ttuttle: The JVM starts at the factory and when you replace the batteries. 16:07:13 sorear: ? 16:07:17 huh? 16:07:25 sorear: Your phone never runs out of batteries? You never reboot your computer? The power never goes out? 16:07:34 ttuttle: iirc hotspot server just enables more expensive optimizations, it doesn't compile everything still 16:07:36 sorear: That's the attitude they take for the server VM's, which do, IIRC, compile at load time. 16:07:42 slava: Oh, okay. 16:07:52 server vm uses more accurate register allocation, etc 16:07:52 ttuttle: DRAM wastes power. They don't use it in embedded devices. 16:08:10 slava: Yum. /me wants to write a compiler. 16:08:12 ttuttle: Also, I don't have a phone. 16:08:16 slava: (I tried once, but it was just beyond me.) 16:08:21 sorear: :-n 16:08:24 sorear: s/n/b/; 16:08:30 sorear: (:-b) 16:08:38 i'm going to get a win ce smart phone at some point 16:08:42 and the type of RAM has something to do with when and how the JVM restarts? 16:09:12 slava: Eww. Get a Palm phone. (And buy Quartus Forth.) 16:09:16 Quartus: Yes. Memory that only forgets stuff when you replace the batteries 16:09:29 ttuttle: sorry, i don't want to run m68k code in emulation on an arm cpu. 16:09:33 Quartus: Why restart the VM if all your data structures are still there? 16:09:34 sorear: Hmm, sounds like battery-backed RAM. 16:09:37 and i don't need to buy anything, factor already runs on ce 16:09:39 how software is stored has nothing to do with when it is executed or restarted. 16:09:40 ;) 16:09:41 slava: The important parts are ARM code! 16:09:51 Quartus: (Right?) 16:09:54 ttuttle: still, win ce is more modern and has a nicer api 16:10:04 slava: But it's EEEEEEEEEEEvil! 16:10:04 and i already know a bit of win32, but nothing about palm os 16:10:06 ttuttle, it's a 68K app actually. 16:10:08 no it isn't evil 16:10:12 Runs fine under OS5 (arm) though. 16:10:15 slava: Microsoft = evil1 16:10:17 s/1/!/; 16:10:27 that's a moronic attitude 16:10:38 slava: I just don't like their stuff, and prefer other platforms. 16:10:42 slava: (I was joking about the evil.) 16:10:48 slava: (But I just distrust the quality of it.) 16:10:58 i prefer mac os x to windows, but i still make sure my stuff runs on windows 16:11:07 slava: (And, frankly, I do prefer to support companies that innovate rather than resting on their monopoly status.) 16:11:32 --- join: JoshGrams (n=josh@dsl-216-227-90-75.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 16:11:35 i prefer to support whatever can make me money 16:11:47 i don't pay attention to the gnu hippy zealots 16:11:51 --- quit: tathi (Nick collision from services.) 16:11:53 --- nick: JoshGrams -> tathi 16:11:54 slava: Okay, that's true. 16:12:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 16:12:16 slava: I'm not a GNU hippie zealot. I just like open source better. 16:12:35 slava: If someone pays me to code something on Windows that I can, I'll do it. But I prefer to learn the things I enjoy, like Linux. 16:13:22 tathi: Hey. 16:14:08 hey 16:14:13 slava: /me actually met RMS in person. He's cool, in the legendary sense, but he's actually quite a jerk. 16:14:35 He's not generally reported to be warm and fuzzy. 16:14:42 Well, fuzzy. 16:14:50 slava: He got into an argument with one of our history teachers (he spoke at an assembly at our high school) because she said "freeware" instead of "free software", and then he made a big deal out of it. 16:15:19 slava: I mean, that's to be expected, but she was actually interested before, and quite put off after. So he lost a potential convert. 16:15:28 Quartus: And he *ALWAYS* wants money. 16:15:49 Quartus: He could probably have squeezed $10 or $20 out of a few people, but instead he suggested we join the FSF as students, which costs $60/year. 16:16:14 Quartus: But on the plus side, he brought stickers! There's one that's a parody of the iPod dancer ads, with the earphones tying the dancer's wrists together like handcuffs ;-) 16:16:32 I'm afraid I find the whole debate fantastically uninteresting. 16:17:08 Quartus: I personally take a mostly practical approach. Linux works better for me, so I use it. I really don't care that much about the ethics, except as a philosophical idea. 16:19:18 Sure. I just can't imagine having so little to do that I'd sit and listen to someone lecture on software emancipation. 16:20:55 Quartus: 1. The school scheduled it. 2. I wanted to meet him anyway. 16:21:13 I'm not critcizing your choices, just describing my own. 16:21:16 Quartus: It was mostly the "celebrity" thing. Plus now I know he's a jerk, which is good. 16:21:22 Quartus: I'm saying I didn't have a choice. ;-) 16:23:55 :) 16:24:37 Quartus: Just out of curiosity, can you think of any sort of technology-related speaker that would be interesting to high-school students? We have faaaaar too many political speakers, and a large chunk of us are sick of it, and a small chunk of us are computer geeks who want to hear that kind of stuff. 16:24:52 hi Quartus hi ttuttle 16:25:07 Hi ray. ttuttle, I don't know; much depends on geography and budget 16:25:08 hi Raystm2 16:25:20 Plenty of lectures are filmed and available, that 16:25:22 Quartus: I don't know their budget, but it's in Boston. 16:25:38 that's probably a better educational bang for the buck than dragging somebody's ass out to actually breathe your air 16:25:40 Quartus: We probably only got RMS 'cause some alumni knew him. 16:25:57 Quartus: Yeah, but we bring in a speaker in every week. 16:26:20 You've got to choose from the list of people you think you can possibly get. 16:26:23 Quartus: Again, not my choice. So many of the speakers are boring, or arrogant, or just not very good speakers. 16:26:26 Quartus: True. 16:27:19 I would suggest bringing in people from other disciplines, to give your group perspective outside of their narrow computing focus. 16:27:37 Quartus: It's sorta annoying, we have so many political speakers, and a lot of them assume you have a deep knowledge of what they're talking about. One started by saying "normally I give this as a series of 5 one-hour lectures, but I'll try to do it in 45 minutes". Not a good sign. 16:27:51 Quartus: Yeah, things like computer privacy, or ethics, or the whole social thing have been good in the past. 16:28:09 Sounds like whoever plans your sessions is fascinated by the silly little political arguments that go on in the computing arena. 16:28:34 Quartus: Not really. Political as in world politics, not computer stuff. 16:28:39 the problem with having people come in to do talks is you often get people who are good at giving talks, but not so good at doing what it is they talk about 16:28:49 slava: It's usually the opposite for us. 16:29:15 slava: We often get our speakers through networking, so we get great people who are (or who are known by) alumni, but they aren't always that good at explaining things. 16:29:27 slava: Plus we only have a 45-minute time slot, which is usually too short. 16:29:47 Quartus: But yeah, our headmaster is a philosophy type. 16:30:25 ttuttle, I don't know. I would only see an unknown speaker if the subject really fascinated me. 16:30:56 And you crossrefed the speakers quals. 16:31:07 Quartus: Well, they make everyone go, so they need to find people who appeal at least somewhat to a wide audience. They expect that not everyone will find every assembly interesting. 16:31:11 Raystm2: ? 16:31:13 yikes, didn't hit italic on purpose there. 16:31:31 Raystm2: I don't get it. 16:32:15 ttuttle I was adding my 2 cents to what Quartus said. "really facinate" AND i'd still check the guys quals. 16:32:28 Raystm2: Oh, yeah. 16:32:58 Raystm2: Like I said, usually the people the school gets are good at what they do, either because we know that or an alum recommended them. It's just they're not always good speakers, or the topic doesn't interest everyone. 16:33:10 I suppose I could be ready to give a talk on colorforth. hehe :) 16:33:29 sure. 16:33:51 Quartus you could talk about prog'ing the Palm. 16:34:04 Raystm2: See the trouble with those is that everyone wouldn't understand them. 16:34:05 ( sounds nasty, put that way, sorry) 16:34:32 Raystm2: Frankly lately they've been picking political speakers almost as obscure, but they assume we know what they're talking about. 16:34:49 ttuttle only hahaSerious about offer. 16:34:50 so you want a speaker who appeals to stupid geeks as well as bright ones, on political and/or technical topics? Good luck. 16:35:02 Quartus: Oh, no. They're all bright. 16:35:29 Quartus: It doesn't have to be both political and technical. It can be somewhat technical, but it has to be understandable by students who are bright but who do not necessarily focus in that area. 16:36:02 Quartus: Think a Scientific American type of audience, but a little simpler, since it's only high school, and they're not all science types. 16:36:03 So whatever topic, it has to be generalized to the point where anybody can follow it, yet also of interest to those who are well-versed in it? 16:36:20 Quartus: Yeah. Nothing's a perfect fit. 16:36:40 Quartus: My favorite tech-ish ones have been mostly stuff I already knew, but where I really enjoyed the presentation and the points of view. 16:36:53 I'd say you'd be lucky to hold half your audience's interest at any given point, and that's with a talented speaker. 16:37:02 Quartus: Okay. 16:37:10 Quartus: That's probably not far from the truth. 16:38:05 Quartus: But it shouldn't be of interest to only 5 or 10%. 16:40:35 Give your audience a list, let them choose. 16:40:53 Quartus: Hmm, I never thought of that. 16:41:06 Quartus: I mean, it's the headmaster's choice, but maybe he would like to do it that way. 16:41:09 brb 16:44:20 Quartus: He usually asks us for suggestions. 16:45:53 I'm suggesting creating a list of speakers & the topics they are prepared to speak on, and having the group choose from that. 17:04:40 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:17:11 Ted Nelson, PappaVic, and that MINDForth guy, and get all of them out of the way in the first talk next season. 17:18:11 Wait. Does that much ego _fit_ in one room. 17:18:49 Sorry, forgot werty. But then he doesn't come to mind for me as much as others. 17:27:17 I thought you welcomed and embraced nonsensical blither. 17:27:30 * slava raises his hand 17:34:00 any new werties of late? 17:34:41 doesn't look like it. i think he's been busy with forthrite 17:34:53 is that what he's calling his genius? 18:07:50 I nether welcome nor embrace nonsensical blither. I do tolerate it. What can I say. I'm from a huge family and used to the 'noise'. 18:10:29 There is something about being shut in at sea with 300 other individuals that makes one a sconce more tolerant. 18:11:07 Unless you're a 'Channel Swimmer' type, well then, speak your mind. :) 18:32:47 --- join: skas_wk (n=skas@121.127.198.32) joined #forth 19:36:59 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 21:41:07 --- join: slava_ (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 21:49:40 --- quit: slava (Nick collision from services.) 21:50:02 --- nick: slava_ -> slava 21:50:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 23:19:45 --- quit: sorear ("zzz") 23:39:13 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:52:20 --- quit: ecraven (Remote closed the connection) 23:54:28 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.06.03