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13:35:45 <DocPlatypus> is there an easy way in GNU Forth to see how much memory a word takes up after being compiled?
13:36:04 <DocPlatypus> or for that matter, an entire file
13:37:26 <ASau> unused : a-word ... ; unused - .
13:37:44 <ASau> Or something like.
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13:41:34 <DocPlatypus> wow. over 20k, most of it probably strings
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13:42:36 <DocPlatypus> it's a bunch of screen routines, spinners, throbbers, sliders, etc. (stuff a program displays to show it is still running and hasn't frozen)
13:49:01 <Quartus__> a single word?
13:49:15 <DocPlatypus> no, a collection of words
13:49:39 <Quartus__> then I'm not getting the 'wow'
13:50:15 <DocPlatypus> just seems to be rather big for what it does
13:50:37 <DocPlatypus> I'll pastebin one of the more exotic ones so you can see what I'm talking about
13:54:33 <DocPlatypus> http://forth.pastebin.ca/497410
13:55:58 <Quartus__> no wonder. That's ghastly.
13:56:57 <DocPlatypus> I know, I got really bored
13:57:41 <Quartus__> it's the longest, slowest implementation I can imagine to do that.
13:59:08 <DocPlatypus> probably the easiest to follow though
14:00:12 <Quartus__> no, I don't think it has any saving graces.
14:02:50 <DocPlatypus> maybe I'm not the great programmer I used to be
14:03:32 <Quartus__> I don't know.  It looks like you got stuck in BASIC, maybe.
14:03:58 <DocPlatypus> well for a while I did
14:04:51 <ASau> Have you ever heard of Dijkstra?
14:04:56 <ASau> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dijkstra
14:05:10 <ASau> Start factoring.
14:08:19 <ASau> See, you have regular patterns:
14:08:35 <ASau> a) "<", spaces, ">";
14:08:45 <ASau> b) ">", spaces, "<";
14:08:48 <DocPlatypus> yeah I know at least mod 0, 8, and 9 can be factored easily
14:09:23 <ASau> Why haven't you done it?
14:09:29 <DocPlatypus> it was a five minute hack
14:09:44 <ASau> Well, alright.
14:12:30 <DocPlatypus> got a "table overflow" when I tried to "see" it. that's definitely not a good sign
14:12:38 <Quartus__> I wouldn't factor the silly spinning strings. I'd use a table lookup.
14:13:47 <ASau> I wouldn't write these tables.
14:13:57 <slava> silly fixed-size tables
14:14:56 <sorear> silly forth and its culture of dictionary allocation
14:19:40 <DocPlatypus> damn...
14:20:07 <DocPlatypus> if I have another number on the stack when I enter a "case", can I just "swap" to get to it?
14:20:50 <ASau> You can.
14:20:52 <Quartus__> don't use case unless you have no other choice.
14:21:06 <sorear> case ... byech
14:22:23 <sorear> obviously, that table is one huge don't-care
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14:27:16 <Quartus__> hi tathi
14:27:19 <sorear> hello
14:27:51 <tathi> hi all
14:31:28 <Quartus__> you're likely to need indexed string arrays more than once; if you don't already have an implementation, now's the time.
14:32:09 <DocPlatypus> well, I needed a good rainy day programming project or three anyway :-)
14:32:43 <sorear>    http://forth.pastebin.ca/497472                                                                                                                                       
14:32:45 <Quartus__> should take you under a half-hour.
14:32:53 <sorear> there's my solution
14:33:18 <sorear> (I'm a novice too, so style critiquers should look)
14:33:36 <DocPlatypus> I'm taking a look since I'm morbidly curious
14:35:29 <DocPlatypus> not too bad
14:35:56 <Quartus__> doesn't solve the same problem.
14:36:08 <sorear> Quartus__: I think it does
14:36:24 <sorear> (stuff a program displays to show it is still running and hasn't frozen)
14:36:31 <DocPlatypus> well in that respect yes
14:36:39 <sorear> I don't recall any strings in the problem description :)
14:37:14 <Quartus__> at best it does something vaguely similar
14:38:42 <DocPlatypus> http://forth.pastebin.ca/497481 <-- these were the first two I made
14:38:44 <sorear> Quartus__: it doesn't give the same strings, of course
14:38:58 <DocPlatypus> then I got bored and started making the fancier ones
14:39:38 <sorear> : spinner  s" -/|\" drop + c@ emit ;
14:39:51 <sorear> : throbber  s" .oOo" drop + c@ emit ;
14:40:07 <sorear> er, need a 3 and
14:40:17 <DocPlatypus> (or 4 mod)
14:40:55 <ASau> 4 mod may give negative result.
14:41:14 <DocPlatypus> okay, abs 4 mod then
14:41:49 <sorear> : mkthrob  >r : r> s" sliteral rot abs swap mod + c@ emit" evaluate ;
14:42:04 <ASau> What about "min-int abs" on 2-complement CPU?
14:42:04 <sorear> s" -/|\" mkthrob spinner
14:42:40 <sorear> fm/mod
14:42:47 <DocPlatypus> oh now that's cute
14:43:42 <Quartus__> standard mod either has sm/rem or fm/mod behaviour. It isn't going to return a negative modulus for a positive input.
14:44:41 <ASau> Then you have to deal with integer overflow.
14:45:24 <DocPlatypus> the only way I get a negative from mod is by doing e.g. "7 -8 mod"
14:45:30 <DocPlatypus> on GNU Forth
14:45:53 <Quartus__> integer overflow is a complete non-issue here.
14:46:18 <ASau> Why?
14:46:28 <DocPlatypus> yeah I'm not worried at all about integer overflow... even on 16-bit archs it would take a lot of loops
14:46:43 <ASau> You can increase your number with 1+ and with "1+ ... mod".
14:54:27 <Quartus__> which is a bad idea because it means the number of cycles the spinner goes through has to be known by the caller.
14:55:40 <sorear> Or better yet, factor it out into an incrementing word.
14:55:41 <DocPlatypus> yeah I wrote these with the assumption the caller would just do something like "i throbber"
14:55:53 <sorear> 1 /spinner  or suchlike
14:56:23 <ASau> Auto-incrementig is much better, in this case.
14:56:37 <sorear> so 'spinner', like my 'blip'
15:00:33 <DocPlatypus> not auto-incrementing does allow for more flexibility in a few cases I have in mind
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15:02:29 <Quartus__> the next logical abstraction would be a 'show-progress' word that could be passed a percentage-complete value
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15:03:10 <DocPlatypus> but that isn't the same thing as something that shows the program is still working even if no known progress percentage has been made
15:03:52 <DocPlatypus> I'm thinking in particular of fsck and friends that spin the spinner even when just reading and analyzing but don't move the progress bar
15:03:54 <Quartus__> a trivial special-case.  0% complete could just be a spinner.
15:04:35 <DocPlatypus> right but GNU/Linux fsck.ext2 in particular spins the spinner even when not incrementing the progress bar
15:04:41 <Quartus__> or 101, or whatever floats your boat.
15:05:56 <Quartus__> uh, sure. So place your progress bar at one spot on the screen, the spinner at another.
15:06:21 <DocPlatypus> the comment you made implied that a progress bar replaces a spinner, and I was stating it does not necessarily
15:06:41 <DocPlatypus> at least that is how I read it
15:07:04 <Quartus__> a spinner is just a progress bar that doesn't know how far along you are.
15:15:27 <DocPlatypus> to me, they are two completely distinct things. certainly you could use a spinner that way but it's not the only way one could be used
15:15:57 <Quartus__> I'm not suggesting a limitation on the use of spinners.
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15:28:00 <DocPlatypus> and I didn't mention this before... I think Dijkstra is full of crap about programmers that started with BASIC
15:28:42 <ASau> You just don't get the clue.
15:29:03 <DocPlatypus> no, I get the clue, I just think he's full of crap
15:29:04 <ASau> Dijkstra is quite right in his opinion.
15:29:34 <ASau> Basic discourages many practices of good programming.
15:29:50 <sorear> why do you even want a spinner?
15:30:05 <ASau> Even in modern its incarnations.
15:30:13 <sorear> i believe in the unix philosophy - be quiet
15:30:49 <ASau> Religion is no good.
15:31:01 <DocPlatypus> not everything is run straight from the command line a la Unix ... sometimes there are needs for interactivity
15:31:26 <DocPlatypus> even some Unix programs need to provide progress information and/or feedback
15:36:46 <Quartus__> which part of his quote about BASIC programmers do you disagree with?
15:37:58 <DocPlatypus> that it's impossible for BASIC programmers to learn good programming practices
15:38:15 <DocPlatypus> and the bit about mental mutliation
15:38:24 <DocPlatypus> so essentially, the whole thing
15:38:35 <Quartus__> 'Practically impossible' is the actual phrase.
15:39:31 <Quartus__> you might consider the year he made the quote, the nature of BASIC up to that time, and his many years as a CS educator.
15:39:46 <DocPlatypus> sure, maybe that quote was accurate in 1980
15:40:01 <DocPlatypus> but today it's as dated as "640K ought to be enough for anybody"
15:40:19 <Quartus__> which is a bogus quote, actually
15:40:49 <DocPlatypus> so maybe it was but you get the idea
15:41:11 <DocPlatypus> okay, how about as dated as "the world is flat and you'll fall off the edge if you try to sail all the way around"
15:41:37 <DocPlatypus> which is probably not an exact quote but certainly represents what many thought in the 15th century before Christopher Columbus set sail
15:41:49 <Quartus__> I get the idea that you're calling Dijkstra an idiot based solely on your own ignorance of history and context.
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15:42:45 <DocPlatypus> on that quote I think he was full of crap... now that I look a few others are already dated too
15:44:58 <Quartus__> you're wrong about the awareness of the world being round in and well before Columbus' time, too.  
15:45:29 <DocPlatypus> okay, how about as dated as parachute pants and blue eyeshadow, the well known fashion fads of the 1980s?
15:46:08 <DocPlatypus> (and you're not going to convince me I'm wrong about those)
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15:47:29 <sorear> However low it may be, Dijkstra's IQ is probably not on topic.
15:47:34 <Quartus__> So you're saying you think Dijkstra was full of crap for making a statement that was entirely valid at least at the time he made it?
15:48:12 <Quartus__> low IQ. Dijkstra.  Ok.  You need to do some serious reading.
15:48:48 <DocPlatypus> a lot of things have changed with regard to computing since 1975
15:49:01 <ASau`> So?
15:49:22 <ASau`> BASIC hasn't changed to that extent.
15:49:23 <sorear> Quartus__: it's called mocking, or maybe sarcasm
15:50:00 <DocPlatypus> ASau`: in 1975 Microsoft either hadn't been founded yet, or was still in Bill Gates's garage
15:50:08 <ASau`> So?
15:50:26 <ASau`> BASIC hasn't changed to that extent.
15:50:30 <DocPlatypus> 32-bit computers were either damned expensive, or an engineer's wet dream.
15:50:43 <DocPlatypus> BASIC *has* changed big time
15:50:55 <ASau`> Not to *that* extent.
15:51:17 <DocPlatypus> for one, in 1975 it was primarily an interpeted language, today it is usually compiled
15:51:24 <ASau`> You still has nothing new in comparison with techniques of 70s.
15:51:42 <ASau`> So?
15:51:51 <DocPlatypus> that's a *huge* change
15:52:11 <ASau`> You may have it compiled or interpreted, semantics has not changed.
15:52:16 <DocPlatypus> today, line numbers aren't even used, instead of using labels
15:52:28 <Quartus__> in fact that's a change in execution speed, nothing more
15:52:47 <ASau`> Alright, you've got labels back into BASIC.
15:53:04 <ASau`> You *did* return to FORTRAN II or IV.
15:53:05 <ASau`> So?
15:53:05 <DocPlatypus> err instead using labels.
15:53:55 <DocPlatypus> you know so much is different on a modern BASIC versus Atari BASIC circa 1980 that I am not even sure I can find the right places to begin
15:54:20 <Quartus> A great deal is the same, as well.
15:54:40 <DocPlatypus> how about most BASIC compilers now let you specify what should be an integer or floating point number, whereas back in the day one had to use arcane-looking shit like A$ or B% or C! or D#
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15:55:15 <DocPlatypus> modern BASICs have looping constructs (besides just FOR...NEXT)
15:55:24 <ASau`> So, you did return to good old FORTRAN IV.
15:55:26 <DocPlatypus> function and subroutine definitions that bear more resemblance to C
15:55:41 <ASau`> So?
15:55:55 <ASau`> What about passing procedures as parameters?
15:56:24 <DocPlatypus> I haven't looked that closely at FreeBASIC so I wouldn't know on that one, but maybe it lets you
15:56:32 <DocPlatypus> I'm not ruling it out
15:56:46 <ASau`> Maybe or maybe not, you're not sure yourself.
15:57:05 <ASau`> This cannot prove anything.
15:57:07 <DocPlatypus> and you say FORTRAN like it's something bad
15:57:09 <Quartus> And you continue to insult Dijkstra for making a statement which was entirely true in 1975, and arguably true to some degree right to the present day.
15:57:33 <DocPlatypus> okay, I didn't realize at first he made it in 1975
15:57:43 <sorear> And I still fail to see how this discussion has anything whatsoever to do with Forth.
15:57:50 <DocPlatypus> but until November of that year I wasn't even born so a lot has changed since then
15:57:59 <Quartus> Dijkstra has an interesting history as regards Forth.
15:58:38 <ASau`> I assure you, the changes in BASIC you talk about are much younger.
15:58:41 <DocPlatypus> how many people still use punch cards? paper tape? printing terminals?
15:58:55 <DocPlatypus> that alone gives you an idea how much computing in general has changed
15:59:20 <Quartus> What, based on improved I/O?
15:59:20 <DocPlatypus> hell, I'm using a CRT, not an LCD flat panel, and I feel out of date!
15:59:38 <ASau`> How many people still use C and derived languages?
15:59:53 <Quartus> COBOL and FORTRAN, for that matter.  APL.
15:59:55 <DocPlatypus> ASau`: Unix is written in C and has been improved over the years
16:00:13 <Quartus> C underwent a couple of standardization efforts that didn't change a whole lot.
16:00:16 <ASau`> How many people use non-relational DBMS'?
16:00:27 <ASau`> Nah!
16:00:29 <ASau`> UNIX!
16:00:52 <DocPlatypus> I would say the C standardization was a winner overall though you still have K&R diehards
16:00:52 <ASau`> Have you ever looked at BSD source?
16:00:57 <DocPlatypus> actually I have
16:01:15 <ASau`> And this code is still used.
16:01:15 <DocPlatypus> and I dared not go tinker with too much as my C is not that great
16:01:29 <Quartus> Nor your Forth, it shows signs of serious BASIC mental mutliation.
16:01:58 <DocPlatypus> as far as that code being easy to follow and see exactly what goes on, I don't think it's half bad
16:02:17 <Quartus> It would be bad code if directly transliterated back to BASIC.
16:02:19 <ASau`> You can't say for sure, but commercial unices are even
16:02:20 <ASau`> worse in this case, as you can find old bugs in, say Solaris awk.
16:02:44 <DocPlatypus> especially for one of my five minute hacks ... though I would not say that's my best programming by a long shot
16:03:04 <DocPlatypus> I don't use proprietary Unices, only a GNU variant and OpenBSD
16:03:25 <Quartus> I'm serious, however.  To write such a thing, especially in Forth, with a huge nested conditional smacks strongly of BASIC thinking.
16:04:26 <ASau`> No matter, BSDs and GNU are still the same.
16:04:36 <DocPlatypus> Quartus: at least it compiled and woked
16:04:38 <DocPlatypus> worked*
16:04:47 <ASau`> Even when they fix some old bugs, it's the same plain old UNIX.
16:04:48 <Quartus> If that's your only criteria, then carry on.
16:04:51 <DocPlatypus> when I tried to factor it, I couldn't get that far
16:05:29 <DocPlatypus> apparently I'm running afoul of some hidden gotcha in case/of that's not documented
16:06:48 <Quartus> Completely ignoring any advice not to use it.
16:07:43 <sorear> DocPlatypus: you've also *completely* forgotten about don't care conditions
16:07:47 <DocPlatypus> it's easier to read than the corresponding if/else/then mess
16:07:53 <Quartus> So don't use that either.
16:08:00 <DocPlatypus> okay, so what does that leave?
16:08:14 <Quartus> Were you looking the other way when this conversation started? 
16:08:18 <Quartus> Scroll back.
16:08:38 <DocPlatypus> no, I remember what was said
16:08:40 <ASau`> T.F. advice: "Don't decide! Calculate!"
16:08:45 <Quartus> You very cleary don't remember.
16:09:01 <sorear> I can paste a line that contradicts you
16:09:23 <ASau`> Whom?
16:09:37 <DocPlatypus> whatever that's supposed to mean
16:09:39 <sorear> ASau`: DocPlatypus
16:10:28 <sorear> DocPlatypus: Why do you insist on using that specific set of markers, for instance?
16:10:43 <DocPlatypus> sorear: artistic value
16:11:01 <sorear> T.F. advice: "Take advantage of don't cares [unspecified spots in the problem]"
16:13:38 <DocPlatypus> I've read it
16:15:15 <sorear> Quartus: Do you think paying attention to artistic value is another good sign of mental mutilation?
16:15:32 <DocPlatypus> he probably does, I'll agree to disagree
16:17:34 <Quartus> artistic value?
16:17:47 <Quartus> Are you talking about the particular squiggles being used in this 'spinner'?
16:17:58 <DocPlatypus> of course he is
16:18:07 <Quartus> I think they're overworked and silly, but that has nothing to do with my comments about the code.
16:18:54 <sorear>  Quartus: But as I see it, working less-hard on the squiggles can greately simplify the code; eg in my paste
16:19:44 <Quartus> Simpler output often mean simpler code.
16:20:16 <Quartus> That's neither here nor there.  If the problem at hand is to output one of a dozen or two variable-length strings, however silly those strings are, the CASE approach is easily among the worst possible.
16:20:34 <DocPlatypus> they are fixed-length strings in this case
16:20:47 <Quartus> Even so.
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16:57:35 <DocPlatypus> okay, a 4.4% time savings by using a string array method, over 20000 runs... not even sure if that's that consistently repeatable because some tests indicated the old case/of code was faster
16:57:56 <sorear> paste it
16:58:00 <DocPlatypus> ok
16:58:24 <sorear> i think I've calmed down now :)
17:01:44 <DocPlatypus> http://forth.pastebin.ca/497641
17:02:54 <DocPlatypus> I calculated out the absolute time savings... it's something like 2.5 microseconds or so per call, seems huge but I doubt it would be an issue on all but the oldest PCs
17:03:46 <sorear> utime is probably a pretty expensive operation - 2.5us sounds about right for gettimeofday alone
17:04:01 <DocPlatypus> sorear: no, I only utime at beginning and end of loop
17:04:06 <Quartus> So instead of considering the advice for all of the various reasons it was given, you're looking for justifications to keep using your existing technique?
17:04:44 <DocPlatypus> Quartus: no, I'm benchmarking the existing code versus a new version and analyzing the results
17:04:55 <DocPlatypus> and making a fully informed decision based on that analysis
17:05:13 <Quartus> Good grief.
17:05:37 <DocPlatypus> and yes, in a way, I feel kind of silly for going through the trouble, but I'll be that much more ready to do this for *real* code as well
17:14:26 <DocPlatypus> heck, it's nothing I did different from testing reads from /dev/urandom versus Brodie's PRNG
17:14:33 <DocPlatypus> differently*
17:15:40 <DocPlatypus> btw, Quartus, /dev/urandom wasn't significantly slower when I tried it, I don't know if you ever saw that
17:16:22 <DocPlatypus> now... /dev/random (without the u) *will* be slower, as it'll run out of bits every so often
17:16:28 <DocPlatypus> causing the program to *block*
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19:49:51 <Quartus> Hey Ray. Long time.
19:50:11 <Raystm2> Indeed. Missed you, missed you all.
19:50:21 <Quartus>    How've ya bin?
19:50:25 <Raystm2> Raystm2 Returneth. 
19:52:19 <Raystm2> I've been okay, health wise. Seem to be having a hard time seeing in day light. I get snowblind on sunny days.
19:52:31 <Quartus> Shades.
19:53:55 <Raystm2> Ya. Need to get a good pair. Something in a polarized.
19:54:03 <Raystm2> You are well?
19:54:11 <Raystm2> Book coming along?
19:54:21 <Quartus> Can't complain.  Book proceeds albeit slowly.
19:56:28 <Raystm2> Ya, mine too. Was a might harder to research with out internet access. I got pretty addicted to being online. Was interesting to take such a long break.
19:57:07 <Quartus> How goes it?
19:58:15 <Raystm2> The county workers have finished $25000.00 in repairs that we got thru a grant.
19:58:25 <Quartus> Good deal.
19:58:39 <Raystm2> Ya, central heat and air is a real requirement here.
19:59:11 <Raystm2> I'm selling fans and window units on the front porch. Got 50 bucks for one of the big fans today.
19:59:16 <Quartus> :)
20:01:35 <Raystm2> Well, needless to say, I'm not employed yet. I'm not even looking. I'm gonna make a go at trying to sell my organizer.
20:01:53 <Quartus> Good luck!
20:02:34 <Raystm2> Hehe. Thanks. I need all I can get. 
20:02:54 <Raystm2> Anything new in the forth world since i've been "away"?
20:03:04 <Raystm2> Seems like more names here.
20:03:10 <Quartus> Lurkers.
20:04:46 <Raystm2> Took the opertunity to finish Pelc, Thinking, and Starting, all over again.
20:05:06 <Quartus> Any new insights?
20:05:06 <Raystm2> I always get something new in that process.
20:05:18 <Raystm2> Ya. indeed and it's already showed up in my work,
20:05:29 <Raystm2> More usage of creation words. 
20:05:49 <Quartus> That's good. Leveraging one of the strengths of the language.
20:05:54 <Raystm2> Relying more on arrays then vars.
20:06:06 <Raystm2> ya.
20:06:37 <Raystm2> More at ease with number conversion, you know <# # sign hold #> stuff
20:07:53 <Quartus> Good.
20:08:29 <Raystm2> I was always making my own number conversion routines.
20:08:36 <Raystm2> Re-inventing.
20:09:07 <Quartus> The <# #> stuff is quite elegant and powerful.
20:09:25 <Raystm2> I like it.
20:28:25 * Raystm2 must catch up to the mailing list.
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20:57:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava
21:13:31 <Raystm2> Hi slava. 
21:14:34 <slava> yo
21:14:45 <Quartus> so heading off to Guadalajara, slava? :)
21:14:56 <slava> huh?
21:15:04 <Quartus> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/0f3a794d50fdd143
21:15:17 <slava> hah
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.05.19