00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.05.02
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08:18:21 <gnomon> .
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12:58:21 <jacereda> hi
12:59:23 <jacereda> any x86 mac user out there willing to test a port of Xcolorforth?
13:04:15 <vatic> sorry, just PPC for me...
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14:09:55 <ttuttle> Argh: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/02/1839251
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14:22:25 <JasonWoof> ttuttle: that's stupid
14:22:36 <JasonWoof> the first comment is nice
14:22:39 <TreyB> jacereda: I have a Mini handy.
14:24:08 <JasonWoof> timlarson__: sorry, I spaced out yesterday... I usually write fractal-ish graphics generators and cgi scripts
14:25:59 <slava> well, i'm glad i'm not in high school.
14:27:01 <slava> but yeah, that's pretty dumb he got arrested for that.
14:28:48 <JasonWoof> I could see him getting in trouble if he made NPCs that looked like the teachers or something
14:28:51 <JasonWoof> but that's rediculous
14:32:53 <JasonWoof> I say if he did a good job, post screenshots of just the building and praise his art
14:33:53 <JasonWoof> and initiative. Some kids would know it's a quake level, but most people would just see that someone has digital modeling skills
14:36:22 * ttuttle hates this country so much.
14:36:39 <ttuttle> I mean, it's got its benefits, but so many people act like idiots.
14:36:53 <slava> there are better reasons to hate your coutnry than some nerd getting arrested
14:36:59 <ttuttle> slava: Yeah, I know.
14:37:06 <ttuttle> slava: But that one sorta strikes close to home.
14:37:16 <ttuttle> slava: I could have been him, if I made Quake levels instead of coding.
14:37:38 <ttuttle> slava: I mean, jeez, I might even play Counter-Strike, if I can get it to run under Wine...
14:37:47 <ttuttle> Valve = the worst company ever.
14:37:52 <slava> in elementary i made a doom map that somewhat resembled my school
14:37:58 <ttuttle> slava: Cool.
14:38:00 <slava> but dumb people didn't really use computers back then
14:38:24 <slava> i've had friends go to jail for offenses that strike closer to home than making quake maps, but i can't discuss that in a logged channel
14:39:30 <ttuttle> slava: I see.
14:42:22 <ttuttle> slava: See PM.
14:43:52 <ttuttle> slava: You there?
14:44:17 <slava> i can't talk about it, sorry
14:44:27 <ttuttle> slava: Okay.
14:45:26 * ttuttle was all ready to hear an exciting story, too...
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14:49:07 <slava> hey iano
14:49:25 <iano> hi
14:49:55 <iano> it is pretty cool how there will soon be millions of Forth systems loose in the wide world
14:50:10 <slava> what do you mean?
14:50:13 <iano> thanks to the #olpc folks using OpenFirmware
14:50:29 <slava> oh
14:50:35 <slava> well, powerpc macs have used openfirmware too
14:50:39 <slava> it's hardly something the user notices :)
14:50:44 <slava> what cpu do these machines have anyway?
14:50:53 <iano> an AMD Geode
14:50:57 <slava> x86?
14:51:12 <iano> yep, with some of AMD's flavor of vector ops
14:53:15 <slava> i used to think it was ARM for some reason.
14:54:20 <iano> the Geode is an all-in-one kind of part.
14:54:25 <TreyB> Heh.  The Geodes I worked on had a cheesey embedded graphics adapter with a RLE compression-and-cache scheme to keep the memory bandwidth of the DAC down to a dull roar.
14:54:53 <iano> They have definitely chosen to choose "cheap" for most design decisions.
14:55:28 <TreyB> They have a pretty low power budget, and "cheap" usually fits that bill better.
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14:55:45 <iano> Mitch Bradley is Mr. OFW, and he's a pretty funny guy
14:56:09 <iano> today he was finding bugs in X Window's RandR implementation (screen rotation)
14:56:29 <iano> so to debug it, he threatened to rewrite X Windows in about 20k of OFW
14:57:10 <iano> Mitch is also writing a great Forth/OFW tutorial for the other hardware folks
14:57:35 <iano> it is at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_Lessons
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15:06:39 <ttuttle> This is dumb, but in C, is it possible to write a for loop that runs through all the values 0 - 255, in an unsigned char variable?  Won't the condition "i < 256" always be true?
15:07:22 <Quartus> ##c
15:07:34 <slava> i <= 255?
15:07:41 <ttuttle> slava: Nah, that'll always be true too.
15:07:51 <slava> oh right
15:08:25 <slava> i don't know, i don't devote brainpower to fixed-width integer types these days
15:08:29 <iano> I'd use an int; cast down to char when you need it
15:10:16 <Quartus> ttuttle, on systems where the char is 8 bits wide, I believe it'd loop forever, or at least it's allowed to.  You'd have to consult a pedantic C language lawyer for the definitive answer.
15:10:32 <ttuttle> Quartus: Ooh, I know one of thos... oh wait, he just thinks he is ;-)
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15:10:40 <Quartus> That's a for(i=0;i<256;i++) deal
15:11:04 <iano> too bad C doesn't expose carry/overflow flags
15:11:11 <slava> yeah
15:11:30 <zirpu> "thus endeth the lesson."
15:11:51 <iano> :)
15:12:27 <Quartus> oh, I see you asked in ##c.  And got several wrong answers.
15:12:32 <zirpu> MB's  tutorial is nice and short.
15:13:18 <zirpu> anyone know of homebrew computer projects?  ie. using something like FPGA's to build the cpu and such.
15:30:10 <Quartus> I don't know anybody personally who's fooling around with that stuff
15:39:28 <ttuttle> Sounds cool though.
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15:47:13 <zirpu> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/   is  the closest thing I've found so far.
15:54:01 <vatic> There's a great homebrew Forth CPU made entirely out of TTLlogic chips somwheres...
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16:03:19 <crest_> well the alu of this "great" forth cpu has one 8bit bus
16:03:37 <crest_> it takes 3 cycles to load an opcode and the operands
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16:44:34 <vatic> Crest: and your point is?
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17:39:36 <JasonWoof> zirpu: WOW
17:43:21 <JasonWoof> that's the best looking case and innards I've ever seen on a computer
17:43:33 <JasonWoof> love all the switches and leds
17:43:47 <JasonWoof> looks like you can hald the processor, and it'll display all the registers and stuff and you can change them
17:45:10 <JasonWoof> halt
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18:13:20 <zirpu> yeah, it's pretty neat and retro. :)
18:38:33 <TreyB> ttuttle left, but a C compiler *should* complain about "i < 256" when you've declared i as an unsigned char type.
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19:06:52 <segher> no, it shouldn't complain about it.  i can be a useful warning, sure, but it is perfectly legal C code
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20:14:20 <JasonWoof> segher: "complaint"/"useful warning"... what's the difference?
20:14:51 <JasonWoof> my compiler sometimes prints warnings that read something like "comparison always false due to limited range of data type"
20:15:57 <iano> ha, just saw that one today
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20:28:24 <AndyArmstrong> That means you're comparing against a value that the variable can never take. For example you might be doing something like unsigned x; if (x < 0) { blah }
20:28:41 <AndyArmstrong> Although it's usually more subtle than that...
20:28:45 <AndyArmstrong> Hello by the way :)
20:30:14 <Quartus> I've got gcc 2.95.4 here, and it doesn't let out a peep about it, with -Wall
20:32:00 <AndyArmstrong> No, it's a fairly new warning I think.
20:36:08 <AndyArmstrong> And actually that example /doesn't/ trigger the warning. But that's what the warning means - "this can't ever happen because the variable won't ever take the value you're testing against"
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20:54:40 <JasonWoof> main.c:4: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
20:55:17 <JasonWoof> #include <stdio.h>
20:55:17 <JasonWoof> int main() { unsigned char i; for(i=0;i<256;i++) { printf("%d\n"); } return 0;
20:55:17 <JasonWoof> }
20:55:40 <Quartus> what compiler?
20:55:42 <JasonWoof> oops, chat client merged the lines. but you get teh idea
20:56:00 <JasonWoof> gcc 4.1.1
20:56:04 <Quartus> ah ok
20:56:24 <JasonWoof> gcc learns new things to print warnings for every version
20:57:21 <JasonWoof> oops, I goofed the printf
20:57:24 <Quartus> I was thinking about that earlier.  Fine-grained factoring and testing is more difficult in C, I guess
20:58:21 <JasonWoof> hence the popularity of debuggers
20:58:32 <Quartus> and the plethora of warnings.
21:03:17 <madgarden> Add an interactive Forth test interface to your C applications.
21:03:38 <Quartus> yeah, or cut to the chase and use Forth
21:04:06 <madgarden> If you have the option. Otherwise, C + Forth works.
21:33:44 <JasonWoof> C is harder to test than forth (partially) because it's difficult to factor it as well
21:33:56 <Quartus> I agree.
21:34:08 <JasonWoof> Often in C it's a pain to factor something out because you'd have to pass so many variables
21:34:29 <JasonWoof> the other main reason being of course that forth can be interactive
21:38:10 <Quartus> True.
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23:36:28 <slava> who cares about C anyway>
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