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I would watch it again and again. 17:42:26 we have two cats 17:42:40 I get boored watching them after a while though 17:42:51 it's an old joke about people giving reviews of a hypnotist's show 17:43:09 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57A7C4B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 17:43:20 SNL, back when it was funny 17:43:21 ah 17:43:27 :) 17:43:50 I'm sure I'll watch this one again, but probably not for a while 17:43:56 "\I loved it, it was much better than Cats. Im going to see it again and again." 17:44:01 "I loved it, it was much better than Cats. Im going to see it again and again." 17:44:05 etc. 17:44:13 heh 17:44:22 All done in monotone. Every review identical. 17:44:30 hehe 17:45:09 The title triggers my bullshit detector. What is 'neuro-hypnosis', and how does it differ from the common or garden-variety hypnosis? Is there another kind of hypnosis that doesn't involve the brain? 17:45:35 Elbow-hypnosis, perhaps? 17:46:50 Where your elbow hears a bell and thinks its a chicken? 17:47:15 is that what they did to poor Doty? 17:47:27 You need a brain to become hypnotized. 17:47:38 ah, sorry, I forgot, little details 17:48:59 I don't know how he comes up with the names 17:49:15 seems to be pretty straight-forward sensible stuff though 17:49:34 When my bullshit detector goes off I'm wary of somebody trying to sell something. 17:50:38 often-times naming has a lot to do with marketing 17:50:43 Right. 17:50:55 doesn't seem all that catchy to me though 17:51:01 more geeky 17:51:10 I know he was a computer programmer earlier in life 17:51:10 Geeks aim for accuracy. 17:51:15 --- quit: brx (Connection timed out) 17:51:40 I'm guessing he kept the neuro from neuro-linguistic programming 17:51:51 which doesn't have the redundancy you mentioned 17:52:02 Which is the other reason that it sets off my bullshit detectors. NLP is all bullshit. 17:52:28 although you could argue that there's a certain redundancy in that name too, since I consider programming to be done in language 17:52:40 how do you know NLP is bullshit? 17:52:44 And yes, neuro-linguistic programming does have the redundancy, unless there's some kind of language that, say, elbows have too. 17:53:09 I've had a few whackos try to sell it to me over the years. 17:53:24 every field has wackos 17:53:43 Sure. And some fields are pure bullshit. 17:53:58 yeah, but don't let the scientologists turn you off to science 17:54:02 it has it's uses 17:54:17 Scientology has its uses? 17:54:31 no, science has it's uses 17:54:43 sorry for the ambiguity 17:55:25 I haven't done any of the major thereputic change stuff from NLP (and probably won't) but I can certainly see accessing queues 17:55:29 If you want to talk bullshit, scientology is right up at the high end of the scale. 17:55:41 and I've noticed the effectiveness of the Meta Model in my own communication with people 17:56:42 I haven't talked about it with too many people, but I'm guessing that the most common reason that people think NLP is bullshit is the claims that it can effect change quickly 17:57:31 ie that they claim they can do things that science/medicine/psycologists have failed at for many years 17:57:46 And the proponents of it claim that its rejection by the larger scientific community is simply a negative reaction to something so wonderful. 17:58:05 heh 17:58:06 that's stupid 17:58:22 scientists don't like it because it's not science 17:58:28 scientists try to be objective 17:58:28 Scientologists make the same claim for their bullshit. 17:58:39 NLP is the study of _subjectivity_ 17:58:52 I have no patience for hip-pocket parlour psychology that comes with a price-tag on it. 17:59:07 what price tag? 17:59:28 Every glaze-eyed nutjob that has tried to sell me on NLP wanted me to buy books and tapes. 17:59:36 ahh 17:59:41 that's never happened to me 17:59:52 I bought a used book once 17:59:57 I've gotten stuff out of the library 18:00:04 and I just downloaded some videos 18:00:26 I also think that 'quick-fix' psychological techniques are unwise and potentially dangerous. 18:01:00 it's weird how we have this idea that change must take a long time and be hard 18:01:19 take phobias for example. 18:01:23 That's the trouble with something like dianetics, which is the cornerstone of the bullshit empire that is Scientology -- some of the stupid tricks in it have a kind of effect upon the gullible reader, leading them to believe that there's truth in it. 18:01:35 people learn a phobia very quickly. often in a few secconds 18:01:44 because something happened _once_ 18:01:55 why should it take long to learn to do something else instead? 18:03:08 Seriously? Because usually phobias are initally learned before the age of 5, at a time of maximum mental susceptibility, and the subsequent personality development builds on those fundamentals. The phobias are ingrained throughout. Learning to react differently does not remove the phobia, just masks it. 18:03:33 what's the problem then? 18:03:44 The problem? 18:03:59 I don't understand how you could mask a phobia 18:04:07 either you freak out or you don't 18:04:26 either you can comfortably drive accross bridges, or you can't 18:04:34 and it's pretty easy to tell the difference 18:05:12 From the perspective of the resulting external behaviour of the individual, that's true. 18:05:30 right 18:05:40 and what other perspective are you considering? 18:06:40 I can repeat what I said above. Because phobias are learned early, they are interwoven throughout the personality of the individual. The result of that isn't simply a single kind of stimulus reaction. That's just one aspect -- the one you can potentially quick-fix. 18:07:32 oh 18:07:51 * JasonWoof looks up phobia in the dictionary 18:08:23 Claustrophobia may result in panic-attacks in elevators; it may also lead to avoidance of certain thought patterns or emotional situations that give rise to a similar kind of feeling. 18:08:28 I think of a phobia as an intense unpleasant reaction to a stimulus. 18:08:35 so we're talking about different things 18:08:39 We're not. 18:09:37 you just said this "The result of that isn't simply a single kind of stimulus reaction." 18:09:51 which is basically my definition of a phobia 18:10:03 A phobia is an irrational fear. 18:10:12 a phobia is an intense reaction 18:10:28 which is triggered every time by a certain stimulus 18:10:41 despite the person's wishes 18:10:53 Sure. It's fear. And it's learned early. And that fear informs the further development of the individual's personality. 18:11:28 I agree that what you're describing does happen, I just wouldn't call it a phobia 18:11:32 but that doesn't really matter 18:11:56 if it really is something about how the person has developed, and their values and stuff, then sure, you can't just do a quick symptom fix 18:11:56 A visible symptom of, for instance, claustrophobia, is anxiety attacks. So perhaps you can make those go away with a quick-fix psychotherapy trick. 18:12:00 that wouldn't get you very far 18:12:26 Quartus: right. you could find out what they're doing in their head when they are in a small space, and teach them other things they could do instead 18:12:54 Quartus: once their brain gets the other options available when it needs them, it'll probably never choose to freak out, unless that is actually a useful response in that situation 18:12:55 Sure. And maybe you can positively affect that very obvious symptom -- but that isn't a cure. 18:12:57 It's a band-aid. 18:13:07 bandaid on what? 18:13:20 you're assuming that there's more to it? 18:13:28 Yes, as I've said repeatedly. 18:13:34 how do you know? 18:14:02 Because phobias are learned at such an early age, every aspect of the subsequent personality is affected by the fear-avoidance patterns set up by the phobia. 18:14:11 from the stories I've heard, it semes more likely that they would be claustrophobic because once when they were 5 they got locked in a chest for a couple hours 18:14:33 Sure. And because the phobia is thus established at such an early age... 18:15:09 that's not how I've heard phobias described at all. I've not heard about them affecting other areas of life. 18:15:48 to me, the typical phobia is some normal person that seems perfectly capable of dealing with life, just like most of us, except there's one seemingly harmless situation that sends him off the deep end 18:16:00 Ok. Then you're the right target audience for hip-pocket psychology. 18:16:20 I'm not. 18:16:26 we disagree on what "phobia" means 18:16:35 you're talking about something that affects all area of a person's life 18:16:49 I think "phobia" means a reaction that only effects one situation in a person's life 18:16:55 "A phobia (from the Greek f?ß?? "fear"), is an irrational, persistent fear of certain situations, objects, activities, or persons." 18:17:02 That's from wikipedia. 18:17:15 "certain situations" 18:17:43 I agree that if we're talking about a pervasive life value or fear that has shaped an individual, then just treating a symptom is not a great idea by itself 18:17:59 (although if you can improve a symptom easily, I can hardly say that's a bad thing) 18:18:13 if a bandaid makes it heal better, by all means use one 18:18:30 but, obviously don't only use a bandaid if it's more serious than a scratch or small cut 18:19:03 NLP doesn't advocate just solving surface issues 18:19:08 It can do that 18:19:25 and, the way I've heard phobias described, the do seem to me to be just surface issues 18:19:58 they aren't generally based on major elements of character, they're usually learned from one bad experience that the person is attempting to avoid 18:20:29 Really? How about homophobia, or xenophobia, or social phobia? 18:20:47 hmmm 18:20:55 yeah, those don't fit my definition 18:21:07 and might not be quick-fixable 18:21:20 and if they are, they're fixed by changing the way someone things about it 18:21:25 not just by changing their behavior 18:22:15 we say things like "get a new perspective on the issue" 18:22:32 Which also set off my bullshit detector. :) Sorry, I'm just not susceptible to this stuff. 18:22:51 susceptable to what? 18:23:10 New-age pyscho-mythological claptrap. 18:23:11 do you think it's impossible to help people change? 18:23:31 do you think it's impossible for people to change that quickly? 18:23:44 Is this the brochure? :) 18:24:05 or do you think that the changes are only cosmetic and that people will still be fucked up no matter what you do? 18:24:42 I think that each one of the questions you just asked warrants far more than a simple yes/no answer. 18:25:34 well, I've heard you say that you don't like the idea of fixing peoples problems by just glossing over or fixing the symptom, without solving the root cause 18:25:47 that is an understandable concern 18:25:55 that's largely why I'm unhappy with western medicine 18:26:54 I've read a lot about NLP, and they don't just treat the symptoms 18:27:08 they try to fix things at the level of cause, or process 18:27:28 --- part: skas_wk left #forth 18:27:40 Scientology purports to treat the root cause, as well, but it baits the hook with quick fixes and emotional manipulation. 18:27:55 does it work? 18:28:01 Absolutely not. 18:28:17 ok, doesn't sound so good 18:28:24 NLP seems to work though 18:28:40 I doubt you'd hear that opinion from a Scientologist, mind you; neither would I expect to hear it from a proponent of NLP. 18:29:20 my aunt did quite a bit of NLP training 18:29:31 she is the most organized, sensible person I know 18:29:51 and I've heard lots of stories about people she's helped 18:29:57 So now I'm attacking your auntie. 18:30:13 it usually doesn't take long, and people are able to make lasting changes in their life 18:30:20 they are happier, more confident, whatever 18:30:27 competant 18:30:47 I'm just saying, that my opinions are not solely from reading books and believing the claims 18:31:10 I've had a little direct experience, and I know people who have had more 18:31:13 people I trust 18:31:19 I've heard similar claims of homeopathic medicine, crystal power, Christianity, pyramid healing, you name it. 18:31:40 Magnets. Copper bracelets. 18:31:41 I talked to her once about an emotional dramma I was in with my girlfriend and she was quite helpful 18:31:58 right 18:32:14 generally with that stuff, I want to see it before I invest much time in it 18:33:00 Point is, your auntie's good advice notwithstanding, you can find all manner of people who will sincerily promote any given thing, backing it up with great sincerity and pointing at all the good it has done. 18:33:17 yeah, and if it works, it works 18:33:33 some things don't hardly work at all 18:33:35 I was innoculated early against such sales pitches. I need to see the numbers. 18:33:35 some work sometimes 18:33:39 and some work a lot 18:34:03 stick with science then 18:34:10 Always have. 18:34:33 I find that my world is quite subjective 18:34:41 so I appreciate some wisdom about subjectivity 18:34:55 I try things that they say in the books, and they work 18:36:10 and some of the stuff just seems freaking obvious once it's pointed out 18:36:23 like that people are imagining scenes in their head when they look up 18:36:50 people say "hmm, lets see" and look up (to the right or left usually) 18:37:17 seems to me that that's quite a literal statement 18:37:29 they're "seeing" something up there in their mind 18:38:11 sometimes you can get people to describe the image they saw up there 18:38:29 sometimes you don't even have to ask 18:38:58 you just ask them a question, they go "hmmm, lets see" look up, and then they answer you all in visual terms 18:41:28 There's nothing subjective about that. It's an objective observation of the usual behaviour of predominantly Western people. 18:43:06 and NLP guesses what sorts of things are going on inside their head when they do stuff like that 18:43:26 it doesn't matter if they are right about what's going on inside people's heads 18:43:32 what matters is whether their techniques work 18:43:48 (BTW, they admit flat out that they are guessing, and don't care if it's correct) 18:44:12 they measure the effectivenes in terms of what actual changes they can effect 18:45:00 in fact, I can think of one belief that they say in the books probably isn't actually true. 18:45:40 but that when they act as if it's true, they are much more effective in helping people make the changes that they (the clients) are asking for 18:46:39 oh, and some of these people have gone all over the world. everybody everywhere has all the same queues for internal dialog, visualization and feelings access 18:46:56 there is some variation, but it's not cultural. 18:47:14 eg most left-handed people look to the opposite side (left/right) 18:47:26 and some people stare straight ahead for visualizations 18:48:54 these are pretty easy to test 18:49:07 you just ask someone "what would your mother look like with purple hair" 18:49:10 and watch their eyes 18:49:32 I tried this yesterday, and accidentally said "red hair" 18:50:02 her eyes went a different place than I expected, and when I asked, she said that her mother did have red hair, and that she just remembered what she looked like 18:50:21 when I asked again, but said "purple" she looked up and right 18:51:32 break time. bbl 18:52:44 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 19:13:49 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57A7AACA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:20:23 most people look to the left when remembering things, and to the right when making things up (or the other way around, i can't remember) 19:20:48 And once armed with that fact, can lie more convincingly. 19:21:08 hehe yeah 19:21:30 but it's statistically very significant, i was amazed 19:21:49 maybe it's just the same as left-right handedness 19:21:59 Maybe. 19:22:08 i.e., what part of the brain you use 19:22:50 Though left-handers are all over the map, as it's half reflex, half conditioning from adapting to a right-handed world 19:23:43 there is a correlation between lefthandedness and creativity 19:23:51 So they say. 19:24:00 too bad i'm righthanded :-) 19:24:24 there is a *correlation*. that's a fact. whether there's anything causal in there is something else of course 19:24:37 I'm left-handed. Evidently some left-handers have more communication between the two halves of the brain. 19:25:23 I don't know that the correlation is fact. It's possible to draw up a list of noteworthy creative people who were left-handed, but a longer list of right-handed ones. 19:25:56 there have been studies. with a few hundred thousand subjects, as those things go 19:26:06 I'm unaware of such a study. 19:26:15 oh ages ago already 19:26:30 60s or so 19:26:57 Back then left-handedness was still strongly discouraged. There'd be skew in the data for that reason, if no other. 19:26:57 not that any of this means anything, or is very useful ;-) 19:27:26 heh sure. flawed methodology, perhaps. but that's how those things go 19:27:43 the "soft sciences" aren't science you know 19:27:57 This isn't soft science, though. 19:28:11 psychology? sure is 19:28:33 I've known quite a few lefties. Roughly half were what I'd consider above average in terms of creativity or intelligence; the other half below average. I think it's a pretty mixed bag. 19:29:10 Stastistics isn't soft science, unless you're setting out to deliberately lie. You can't do a study with a few hundred thousand subjects without some fixed criteria against which to measure. 19:29:17 sure. there is a *correlation*. it's not a 100-100 thing, heh 19:29:30 yeha 19:29:32 yeah 19:29:54 yeeeeeeeeee haaaaa! :) 19:29:57 except your input data isn't "measurements" already 19:30:05 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:30:08 (well, the left/right handedness is, heh) 19:30:20 If it isn't measurements, you can't check for correlation. 19:30:35 let me put it some other way 19:30:55 there isn't a fixed scale or a known error interval 19:31:08 for measuring" 19:31:09 There has to be, or the study is a complete waste of several hundred thousand people's time. 19:31:18 for "measuring" creativity 19:31:27 sure, you make up some scale 19:31:33 There's no absolute scale, but you'd have to come up with some criteria for the purpose of your study. 19:31:38 yes 19:31:51 So that's your fixed scale. 19:32:05 but it makes the data not easily comparable to other experiments' data 19:32:28 Right, which only matters if you need to. 19:33:05 but you should, if you want to call this science ;-) 19:34:40 Whether or not you can readily compare your measurements to those from another study doesn't determine whether it's science or not. How amazingly craptastic your criteria are would be a factor, of course. I've never heard of any large-scale study of left-handed people as regards any particular ability; there isn't even a record of the number of left vs. right-handed people. 19:35:06 10% is bandied about a lot, but with nothing to back it. The census doesn't ask. 19:35:28 it depends on geographical location 19:35:37 I've never heard that, either. 19:35:55 you need to read more ;-) 19:36:07 That's one possibility. 19:43:32 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 19:44:13 --- join: freeindex (n=blah@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net) joined #forth 19:48:55 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madgarden 19:49:34 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57A7A23E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:51:15 --- join: brx`` (n=brx@p57A7A1B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:53:05 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:57:22 --- quit: brx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:02:07 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 20:05:33 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57a79f2d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 20:06:07 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:09:49 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:13:04 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:13:30 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 20:14:09 --- quit: brx`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:17:46 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57a799a1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 20:28:07 --- join: brx`` (n=brx@p57a79807.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 20:33:22 --- quit: brx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:35:29 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:41:16 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:54:12 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 20:55:51 --- quit: nighty^ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 21:02:32 --- quit: freeindex ("After life is eternal death. May this be the salvation of your soul.") 22:07:12 --- join: yumehito (n=yumehito@b-internet.87.103.254.70.snt.ru) joined #forth 22:11:46 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57a78794.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 22:13:46 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:17:28 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 22:22:09 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57A787CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 22:26:29 --- quit: brx`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:29:32 --- quit: brx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:33:57 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 22:46:01 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:46:17 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57a782ad.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 22:46:26 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 22:54:41 --- quit: TreyB_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:01:36 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:05:02 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:07:10 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57A7808E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:11:13 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:14:49 --- quit: brx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:14:51 --- join: brx`` (n=brx@p57A795DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:31:01 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:37:10 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57A79D0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:44:58 --- quit: brx`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:53:10 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:55:24 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57A7C032.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.04.29