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vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-83-233-103.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:22:17 Hey I'm stumped. I've got a piece of floating code that works on Quartus, but not I think on 32-bit forths like gforth or Carbon MacForth... 18:22:30 er, floating point code 18:39:34 what is it? 18:40:17 I'll post it, hang on... 18:46:38 and he was never heard from again 18:48:23 http://forth.pastebin.ca/430533 18:48:36 sorry, trying to write up the problem. 18:49:14 Dude. 136 lines. What's the problem? 18:49:15 If you have any suggestions, I'd be appreciative. You don't have to solve it for me! :-) 18:49:59 look at the output. bar returns -1 when fval and fmin are both -1.5, which is fine, 18:50:16 but when it's use in context (foo) 18:50:45 it doesn't produce a true value (-1) until fval reaches -1.7. 18:51:10 Which means I now have to fully understand two and half pages of code to figure out which step is behaving differently on one system than on another. 18:51:20 I don't have this problem with Quartus, but seem to with Carbon MacForth, and I believe gforth on OSX. 18:51:46 well, perhaps you're treating a float as two cells somewhere, which is true on quartus but not macforth? 18:51:48 eg, swap -vs- rot... 18:52:00 separate float stack on Quartus Forth, and on gforth 18:52:12 yeah, but what about reading to/from memory? 18:52:12 I know. Any thoughts on how to approach such a thing? I'm stumped. single stepped though all the code... 18:52:18 f! and f@ 18:52:20 write unit tests for each word 18:52:41 Yes, that's a good first step. See if you can't whittle it down to a short piece of code that illustrates the problem. 18:53:11 That's what the "debug code" demonstrates. Look at the bottom of the file. 18:53:19 ...and the output. 18:53:32 Am I misusing FALIGNED? 18:53:45 My addressing seems OK. 18:53:47 Yes, I'm sure this 136-line thing illustrates your problem, but I'm suggesting you whittle it down to, say, 10 lines that show the same problem. 18:54:28 OK, I'll do that. Thanks for you interest! :-) 18:54:41 It'll be tomorrow though... 18:55:08 For instance, I see you are using a f, to lay down four floats. Is reading them back the issue? A short word that just writes them, and reads them, would test that. 18:55:38 I wrote one of those a while back and all seems fine... 18:56:06 So you need to carry on and add the next step, and see if that works the same. And so on. 18:56:50 OK, will do... 18:56:56 Thx! 18:57:10 Until the problem evinces itself. 18:59:02 see quartus, type checking, compile or run time, helps with this type of problem. 18:59:24 I'm not at all sure what this type of problem is, yet. 19:03:47 The thing I find hard to grasp is that when I "print" the two values I'm comparing, FOO is comparing -1.5 with -1.5, but it's returning False 19:04:00 Oh, are you using f= ? 19:04:19 Where when I call FTRI-OOB? bye itself in BAR it returns True. 19:04:24 f< 19:05:06 I see. Different floating-point representations can give slightly different results when comparing values that print the same. 19:05:44 This is due to inherent limitations in the floating-point formats, cumulative rounding errors, etc. 19:05:44 I thought about that, but don't have any idea how to "reveal" it in my coding. 19:06:00 Change your test to allow a fudge factor in the comparison. 19:06:23 You mean like in F~? 19:06:33 Same idea. 19:06:38 : f~ tuck f- f* fudge f< ; 19:07:18 Ah, OK... So it's not likely I'll "see" that one value is -1.5 and the other is -1.5000001? 19:07:30 Relying on exact equality between two floating-point values is always risky. 19:07:36 well, try printing the bit patterns of the numbers and see if they differ. 19:07:59 slava: thanks, good point! 19:08:43 See- you all have been incredibly helpful already! :-) 19:10:44 ;) 19:25:34 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw1-fe8ade00-21.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 19:27:21 OK, so if I add 0.001e to my fmin (-1.5e) the code works as expected on carbon MacForth... 19:27:41 Good. 19:27:43 i wish there was an evaluation version of macforth available. 19:27:58 So this isn't the type of problem that typing would find, slava. :) 19:33:01 --- join: DocPlatypus (n=skquinn@adsl-75-62-70-203.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:33:57 slava: if you email Ward Chamberlain, I'm sure he'd send an evaluation copy... 19:34:14 He was kind enough to do it for me. ;-) 19:34:31 evaluation copy of...? 19:34:33 sorry missed it 19:34:50 Quartus: so you think it's just a "fudge" thing? 19:37:41 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekepro@88.204.194.30) joined #forth 19:38:44 vatic, it's a language-independent issue; comparing floating-point values for equality is unwise. 19:42:26 Or exact inequality? 19:45:30 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57A79DD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:53:20 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:11:19 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 20:14:52 heh 20:15:08 you can't even rely on a floating point value to stay below a certain integer when converted to integer 20:15:53 in C on x86 linux, it would sometimes happen that we'd check that a float was less than a certain integer (the height of the screen) 20:16:15 store it to memory, and when we used that float later as an integer it would not be instead rounded up to that integer 20:16:25 this didn't happen on our PPC boxes... 20:16:36 add that to my list of things about x86 to be annoyed about 20:24:26 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 20:34:08 all of a sudden... 20:34:17 i have this urge to create a metacompinling forth. :> 20:34:29 yet another forth? 20:34:43 not necessarily 20:34:59 either new or taking an existing one and making it metacompiled 20:35:20 what's the benefit of meta-compiling? 20:35:53 (1) creating customized executeables (2) fort written in forth (3) fun and nostalgia and general all-around sillyness 20:37:07 arke: I think GNU Forth is metacompiled isn't it? 20:37:19 nope 20:37:22 its written in C 20:38:06 I've been really drawn to meta-compiling, because then everything can be in forth 20:38:40 but if you really take advantage of that and diverge from your other-language (C, asm, whatever) sources, then you have the problem of basically having a binary-only forth 20:38:48 since you have to run the binary to interpret the source 20:39:07 or you can maintain two compatible cores, one in C or asm or whatever and one in the forth itself 20:39:12 ciforth metacompiles, as does Enth/Flux, and Pygmy (used to? On DOS?) 20:39:29 Pygmy metacompiles, yeah. 20:39:34 Pygmy is mazing. <3 20:39:38 JasonWoof - or you can generate forth compilable by gforth and such. 20:39:51 ayrnieu: true 20:39:54 that's another option 20:40:11 my meta-compiling forths have been far to weird to work with gforth 20:40:20 they don't even use ascii source 20:40:44 herkforth and fronds both use a binary representation of source code 20:43:04 is Pygmy portable? I'm guessing not 20:43:13 no, it's written in x86 assembly and runs on DOS 20:45:24 my current favorite solution is to run on a VM which is written in portable C 20:45:41 and have a meta-compiling forth that runs on that virtual-machine 20:46:13 that way I can have just one set of sources for my forth kernel 20:46:20 (which is in my weird language) 20:46:30 and it's still easy as pie to port to other platforms 20:47:01 especially if those platforms have SDL 20:47:49 i had to dive into the SDL source the other day to see how they implemented XIM support. they're not that bad actually 20:51:17 what's xim? 20:51:26 X input method protocol 20:51:38 replacement for XLookupString() 20:52:13 you create a per-window input context then use Xutf8LookupString() to translate KeyPressedEvent into input 20:53:17 ahh 20:53:29 I haven't gone beyond ascii at this point 20:53:47 nor have I, really 20:53:56 just starting to play around with that stuff 20:54:15 i figured out utf8 title bar strings, input, and clipboard on x11 20:54:28 i was amazed that these things are pretty standardized by now 20:58:18 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 20:58:35 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:58:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 20:58:43 hmm 20:58:49 might be cool to target .NET CLR or JVM 20:58:54 eew :) 20:59:11 slava: you've done it, i was about to ask about your experiences ... im guessing not so good :) 20:59:45 it is hard to generate efficient JVM bytecode unless your language is very close to Java 21:00:12 I see 21:00:19 which rules out dynamic typing, for instance 21:00:32 is JVM typed? 21:00:33 or a static type system unlike java's 21:00:35 yes, it is 21:00:38 damn :/ 21:00:45 CLR probably is too then 21:00:48 JVM bytecode is essentially pre-tokenized java source 21:00:50 CLR is typed too 21:00:54 actually, yes it has to be 21:00:56 yeah 21:00:56 and has the same issue, w.r.t C# 21:01:14 maybe LLVM then 21:01:23 its untyped and runs on the kitchen sink 21:01:34 yes, LLVM is quite different from those two 21:01:43 it is a runtime compiler API 21:01:48 okay, pardon my complete ignorance here, but what's CLR? 21:01:57 DocPlatypus: common language runtime 21:01:57 microsoft's runtime for C# 21:02:00 part of the ".net framework" 21:02:12 What slava said, exept that its not just for C# 21:02:22 yes, there's also vb.net 21:02:29 and managed C++ 21:02:30 which is similar semantically 21:02:32 and that J# thing 21:02:40 they're all variations on a theme, arke 21:02:41 and DeltaForth :) 21:02:46 I know. 21:02:55 i wonder how close to Forth ∂Forth is 21:03:16 dunno, haven't tried it. 21:03:29 * arke hasn't done too much forth lately ... been too busy with other stuff 21:03:36 or should I say ΔForth. 21:03:42 * slava wonders if anybody sees those symbols. 21:03:47 slava: I do 21:03:59 i dont, but then again its irssi via ssh 21:03:59 congratulations, your irc client supports utf8. 21:04:31 is that what runs the ".exe" files that Mono spits out? 21:04:38 DocPlatypus: yes 21:04:40 ok 21:04:54 they're not PE executables, despite the extension. 21:04:55 see now we're getting somewhere, file doesn't know what they are 21:05:05 they're called 'assemblies'. 21:05:08 /usr/lib/tomboy/Tomboy.exe: MS-DOS executable PE for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly 21:05:36 it's 'assembly' as in a 'collection of resources', not 'machine code'. 21:05:41 the JVM equivalent is a JAR file 21:05:43 ok 21:06:28 * arke wonders if a Forth targeted to LLVM exists 21:06:42 arke: the LLVM distribution ships a small demo for a stack language targetting the LLVM. 21:06:50 it's not really a forth, though. 21:06:59 but it might give you ideas for how the real thing would look like. 21:07:26 LLVM's compiler generates good code; you should be able to make a forth competitive with the commercial systems. 21:07:28 oh yeah 21:07:33 put rather out of business -- doty's wet dream. 21:07:34 * arke remembers reading abou tit in LLVM docs 21:07:50 doty? 21:08:00 arsehole on c.l.f. 21:08:06 oh, thought so, hehe. 21:08:13 * arke should start reading clf again 21:08:16 rather == elizabeth rather. 21:08:21 arke: it's mostly a waste of time. 21:08:21 so Im guessing he's not fond of liz? 21:08:52 * arke takes a peek 21:08:52 there's this 'werty' guy, who's a complete loon, there's john doty, who thinks forth is unpopular because of ANS and that his LSE64 system offers the solution. 21:09:00 jeff fox posts there too, usually insulting people 21:09:11 nobody shares his unique life experiences and wisdom, you see 21:09:47 standardization is needed for any computing language to really thrive 21:10:06 we needed to evolve from K&R to ANSI C for C to remain viable 21:10:09 same here 21:13:51 heh, this werty guy is a loony :) 21:14:32 fox exhibits the symptoms of a schizoid paranoiac. Doty is a rampant ego-maniac. Werty's a loon. 21:15:04 arke: sadly, when werty ventures out into other groups such as comp.sys.arm, people conclude that he is representative of forth programmers 21:15:10 Haven't noticed Drake posting recently. 21:15:31 and he has a band of groupies on c.l.f, who post things like "I think what werty is getting at here is..." 21:15:49 That's especially sad. 21:16:07 * arke remembers talking to jdrake often 21:16:19 he's still on my aim, it seems ... 21:16:27 maybe i should im him someday and have a conversation 21:16:35 Quartus: he hasn't posted, he's been busy; filling in the missing words from his CF hello world 21:16:41 pacman 21:17:52 I like that, though --"How do you do x in cf?" and the answer is "do-x", with the definition being surely a trivial and obvious thing. :) 21:18:05 Hehe :) 21:18:26 did he ever post a complete 'hello world'? 21:18:41 i recall even the most recent attempt was missing some definitions. 21:18:49 substantially revised from his original, which couldn't work. it's on his blog somewhere 21:19:19 proof of concept hello world throwaway prototype. 21:19:40 if something trivial takes this much effort, you're either using Java or ColorForth. 21:19:47 a-yup 21:20:04 Hehe. :) 21:20:05 But it's all trivial -- after all, tetris is really easy in ColorForth. Here it is: 21:20:06 tetris 21:20:18 ... with the appropriate library code loaded, of course. 21:20:55 * arke finds it odd that he's having such a hard time with it though 21:20:57 ((TetrisFactory)TetrisServiceLocator.getInstance().getService("TetrisFactory")).newTetrisInstance(TetrisConfiguration.getDefaultTetrisConfiguration(null,false)) 21:21:13 i believe ray implemented a hello workd and it didnt take him very long 21:21:21 slava: welcome to the world of enterprise software *groan* 21:22:21 * arke strongly believes in the law of demeter 21:25:03 yes, a seven-line one that has strict limitations in terms of what it can display 21:25:25 There are some seriously questionable design choices in cf 21:25:51 works for what cm wants and thats all he cares about 21:25:57 anybody else is welcome to do whatever they want 21:26:06 but yeah, i agree, things like that should be a bit easier 21:27:02 It's an exercise in masochistic minimalism that goes so far over the line, it actually becomes complex in bad ways. 21:27:52 i think what people dont realize is that CF was written to write things like CAD stuff 21:27:55 Where's Ray been the last bit? 21:28:10 which is why its easy to write, say, a tetris in it 21:28:16 but hard to write a hello world 21:28:23 (i mean this in relative terms, of coure) 21:28:24 I don't think CF is any better suited to writing CAD than to writing anything else 21:28:28 Quartus: just busy with life 21:28:41 well, writing CAD in intercal, for instance, is challenging 21:29:33 its also a matter of taste 21:29:41 CF is chuck's taste and nobody else's 21:30:00 Java, C#, ANSI Forth, etc. are designed to accomodate many people 21:30:25 Yeah, it's a given than anyone's private effort is for their own ends. 21:30:30 C# design consisted of photocopying the Java spec :) 21:30:31 I'm not disputing that. 21:30:41 slava: I don't think so. ;) 21:30:56 lately it's been diverging. 21:31:09 adding closures, etc. stuff that freaks out the java crowd. 21:31:30 Delegates have been there since day 1 .. java still doesnt have that 21:31:49 java 7 might get something like anonymous delegates (which are really anonymous closures). 21:31:51 (although delegates are basically classes in a sense, just easier syntax) 21:32:15 although it depends -- the enterprisey crowd might stop that from going in. 21:32:16 (and fucking MS doesn't allow deriving from Delegate, which pisses me off to no end) 21:33:14 i wish gcc wasn't so slow on this arm board! 21:33:47 there's your problem, slava. :) You should be using a nice fast ARM Forth to write in. :) 21:33:56 :) 21:34:07 humor me -- what's a fast, free ARM forth? 21:34:22 wasn't frank seargent working on one? 21:34:26 I haven't surveyed the field for one lately. 21:34:31 he wrote one, yes. but it runs on bare hardware 21:34:36 let me add 'runs on linux and windows ce' to my requirements list 21:35:42 arke: http://www.cdiggins.com/ -- forth-like that runs on the CLR 21:35:42 surely a man of your considerable talents could knock one together in short order. 21:35:43 ah 21:37:14 if not, werty could do it in two days, though there'd be only a pictographic interface 21:40:20 * arke digs around in his old code pit 21:40:38 i remember having started converting pygmy to STC 21:40:41 useless, but fun 21:40:46 its been half of forever though 21:40:59 wasn't DTC chosen for pygmy because it happens to be faster than STC on a 8086? 21:41:04 Quartus was telling me about this the other day 21:41:09 he was? 21:41:28 yeah, but who still runs 8086? :) 21:41:43 * arke would actually assume that STC is faster than DTC even on 8086 21:42:10 STC may be slower than DTC on some arcane hardware, but if you just stop at STC you're daft. Simple inlining will easily win the speed race. 21:42:34 my plan exactly. :) 21:43:23 * arke wonders if this stuff still exists 21:44:10 doesnt look like it 22:15:59 slava - I only know of PFE, for works-on-ARM forths. 22:21:52 --- quit: DocPlatypus ("Leaving") 22:24:55 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 22:25:14 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 22:25:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 22:27:32 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/8798f80e5619bb6c 22:28:22 He really is disadvantaged. 22:48:09 --- quit: Quartus (Remote closed the connection) 22:48:28 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 22:48:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 23:05:59 --- join: brx` (n=brx@p57a79948.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:14:49 eeh 23:14:50 ok 23:14:56 maybe i should stay away from CLF :P 23:20:07 --- quit: brx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:24:29 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:31:39 --- join: brx (n=brx@p57a7bd78.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:32:58 --- join: jfr (n=jens@p57b0782e.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:38:43 --- quit: brx` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:45:03 --- join: Quartus (n=neal@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 23:45:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.04.08