00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.03.13 00:00:23 I guess what I really want is something to replace the spot in my heart previously occupied by LispMe. 00:00:57 And Quartus Forth. (not that I like it any less now than I did before, Quartus; it's just that my last Palm died on me a while back) 00:03:48 Anywoop, I'm out. Catch you all later. 00:04:01 slava, there isn't any chance that you'll be in Toronto on Wednesday, is there? 00:04:08 no, sorry 00:04:22 It was a long shot. I'm baking a bunch of pies and having people over. 00:04:30 pies, mmmm 00:05:03 I'm thinking apple, blueberry, either peach or pumpkin, and maybe pecan if I'm feeling decadent. 00:05:10 And, of course, pizza. 00:05:29 So I'll need many people to help with the eating. 00:05:30 (with salid) 00:05:37 *salad, even 00:05:38 i wish i could make it, i really do. i have a friend in toronto i'm meaning to visit too. 00:05:47 zpg, you don't make friends with salid! 00:05:50 unfortunately, wednesday is a no-go. 00:06:36 slava, no worries - I didn't expect that you'd be able to pack up and ship out in the middle of the week on forty hours of notice. I just figured I'd check on the odd chance. Some other time! :) 00:06:48 And speaking of time, I'm really out of it now. 00:06:49 i'd like to visit TO in apri 00:06:50 l 00:06:53 later. 00:28:09 --- quit: yumehito (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:57:56 --- nick: arke_ -> arke__ 00:58:03 --- nick: arke__ -> arke 00:58:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 01:04:00 --- quit: lyn ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]") 01:09:08 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:21:33 --- quit: zpg ("later") 01:44:25 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 01:49:10 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 01:50:01 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-182-190.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 02:02:11 --- quit: ecraven ("brb") 02:06:27 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:06:49 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 02:09:37 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 03:58:52 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 04:18:26 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 04:40:38 --- join: zpg (n=user@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 04:49:56 hey 04:50:12 hi 04:59:30 hi hyrax_ 05:03:23 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:43:51 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489E6DC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:52:59 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekepro@82.200.251.167) joined #forth 05:54:32 --- quit: ecraven ("brb") 06:20:52 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 06:53:23 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:54:38 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekepro@82.200.251.167) joined #forth 07:00:25 --- join: yumehito (n=yumehito@87.103.254.70) joined #forth 08:04:07 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:04:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 09:18:01 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@201.5.12.238) joined #forth 09:19:04 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@70.102.202.162) joined #forth 09:19:06 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 09:19:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 09:19:17 does anyone else here use eterm? 09:19:33 bah wrong channel lol 09:24:08 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 09:24:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 11:34:12 --- log: started forth/07.03.13 11:34:12 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:34:12 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 11:34:12 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Sat Nov 25 22:45:21 2006] 11:34:12 --- names: list (clog lyn ygrek @I440r neceve @Quartus_ @JasonWoof yumehito virsys Crest Snoopy42 @arke nighty-- ayrnieu Raystm2 @Quartus @slava madwork @hyrax_ timlarson__ TreyB warpzero unfy madgarden Baughn OrngeTide cmeme @crc gnomon juhaheinonen Shain) 13:12:52 --- quit: ygrek () 13:15:06 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@200.217.105.251) joined #forth 13:34:08 --- join: leontopod (i=leontopo@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 13:57:41 --- quit: leontopod (Client Quit) 14:04:49 does 'starting forth' correspond fairly closely to ans forth? 14:05:11 i.e only 'minor' diffs? 14:05:57 depends on which version 14:06:47 --- part: edrx left #forth 14:06:59 the old 'starting forth' is for figforth iirc 14:10:23 it's for an olde forth inc forth I think 14:10:30 antique anyway 14:10:57 there's a web version of sf that's somewhat ANSified 14:12:58 hmm! 14:14:05 you'll get along fine anyway, with starting forth. 14:19:23 Quartus: how's the book coming along? 14:54:03 --- join: ecraven (i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 15:03:05 --- join: ASau (n=user@ggsn3inet8.beelinegprs.ru) joined #forth 15:03:29 Good evening! 15:05:22 good evening 15:07:56 Any news? 15:09:20 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 15:14:33 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 15:17:45 --- join: timlarson___ (n=timlarso@user-12l325b.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 15:25:41 --- quit: timlarson__ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:10:25 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489E196.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:13:26 update nearly finished, reboot required brb. 16:13:52 MS is evil. 16:14:13 It is! :) 16:14:21 but then so am I so... 16:14:36 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 16:18:27 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-112-196.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:18:32 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:18:46 W/B! 16:19:25 --- quit: Raystm2 (Remote closed the connection) 16:19:48 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-112-196.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:20:57 --- quit: madgarden ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 16:22:43 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096668571.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 16:32:20 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@201.5.11.63) joined #forth 16:41:43 slava, slowly but surely. 16:41:52 Buenas noches! 16:43:17 Hola, que Paso? 16:43:36 yikes , hope i spelled that right. 16:43:40 * Raystm2 looking. 16:44:17 It looks like Octave does not help much. 16:44:39 Alright, let's stick to Maxima. 16:48:20 ASau: Octave, Maxima? I've missed the context. 16:48:40 It is out of context. 16:48:56 I'm gouing to take a look at FSL. 16:49:05 *going 16:50:16 Understood. :) 16:50:29 * Raystm2 reading about Haskell. 16:50:37 Seems to be the topic in ##forth 16:51:27 Any math/phys people here? 16:51:57 I want to solve hydrodyn. PDE's. 16:52:29 What tools could I use except writing my own ones. 16:52:33 ? 16:53:16 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 16:59:28 --- quit: slava () 17:06:28 ans standard is quite readable! 17:09:05 TECO code is readable too. 17:09:35 It just depends on what you call readable. 17:15:41 like i said! 17:32:56 hey lyn, how's things? 17:33:27 hey good, you? 17:33:44 you know lyn, it occurs to me that I didn't ask your programming backround, last night. Care to share? 17:33:50 Pretty good, thanks :) 17:34:21 * Raystm2 just learning about Haskell, after putting it off for years. 17:35:07 What I don't understand in Haskell, is why quite different 17:35:08 *** people want learn it. 17:35:23 It seems like hype. 17:36:19 Also, I find laziness-by-default to cause too many problems. 17:36:46 Maybe it even breaks intuition. 17:41:55 --- quit: arke ("Konversation terminated!") 17:47:00 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@70.102.202.162) joined #forth 17:47:20 Good morning, mark4 17:47:54 Raystm2: tough question! 17:49:14 Raystm2: 11 yrs of c, unix, lisp, web, language buff 17:49:38 ocaml, eifel, erlang, python 17:49:45 cool. cool. :) 17:50:08 just getting around to forth! how could i miss it so long? 17:50:15 We can help each other then. :) 17:50:24 ok 17:50:29 I know how you feel. 17:50:44 What applications do you want in Forth, lyn? 17:51:18 i want a personal hypertext/publishing system 17:51:26 Hmm. 17:51:30 Like what? 17:51:33 Who writes applications in forth? I thougth forth programmers only write forth systems. :) 17:51:33 personal publishing -- ha! 17:51:55 Oh hey lyn you should check out some of crc's work in his wiki in RetroForth 17:52:03 Do you mean blog? 17:52:05 Wiki? 17:52:18 ASau: like um....emacs + the web + rdf 17:52:24 Ya, RetroWiki, I believe. Getting link... 17:52:25 or something 17:52:45 mainly for my own use...journal + personal library? 17:52:47 I don't remember what's RDF. 17:52:55 still thinking about it, clearly 17:53:20 I think we could co-operate with text editor. 17:53:27 http://retroforth.net/wiki/ 17:53:35 rdf's like a logical notation for relatibg published urls 17:53:36 At least we both believe text editor is Emacs. 17:54:11 sorry, gotta dump emacs! 17:54:15 hehe 17:54:27 love it though...it hurts 17:54:43 I see 3 or 4 approaches to text editors. 17:54:49 What in it's place and what are the constraints that force you off of emacs? 17:54:50 like losing a brother 17:54:57 Emacs, vi/ex, ed, TECO. 17:55:30 i see colorforth as a chance to hack the editor...throw in a digital library 17:56:14 Raystm2: elisp is too slow to write a database in, gotta get around file sys! 17:56:21 I see. 17:56:21 I like Emacs (as unimodal/visual) and TECO (as bimodal/batch). 17:56:48 I never tried BBDB/LSDB. 17:56:59 Emacs is okay. I'm still using the help file so... not a lot of experiance here. 17:57:15 But I see where other editors get there function from. 17:57:51 sweet environment..very active module developers 17:58:24 lyn, you get a chance to look over any of those sites I pointed you to yesterday? 17:59:23 i think editors shouldnt exist! only content + actions..a machine! forth! 17:59:29 Raystm2: May I inquire, if the list is personal? 17:59:42 Raystm2: yeah 17:59:45 lyn: I don't believe in it. 18:00:17 Editor is a way of human-machine interaction. 18:00:57 so is a computer...computer without editor is nonsense. redefine computation! charge! 18:01:16 Computer without editor is real. 18:01:39 But it has very limited operation field. 18:02:08 (Probably, "domain" is better word.) 18:02:14 'the editor is the computer' -- what a vision! 18:02:25 it shines resplendently 18:02:44 * lyn slaps himself 18:02:48 too excited 18:03:20 I'm sorry, I haven't understood the word "resplendently". 18:04:01 splendidly 18:04:40 Aha. 18:05:01 Raystm2: i'm enjoying those readings...also reading ans spec 18:05:04 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 18:05:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 18:05:32 ray hi lol 18:05:40 sorry for dealy, still at work "hardly working" 18:05:54 no it was ASau that said hi this time lol 18:06:01 hi both of you :P 18:06:09 ok time to stop smokin crack, its messin with me 18:06:54 Raystm2: crc? 18:07:05 lol 18:07:22 Raystm2, is usually the one who greets me as i enter... 18:07:32 lyn what forth system are you using btw? 18:07:38 and how long have you been using it ? 18:08:14 playing with colorforth, win32forth 18:08:23 2 days 18:08:38 and counting! 18:08:41 ASau list? of sites? 18:08:50 Hi Mark! :) 18:08:59 cool 18:09:07 got any x86 based linux boxes??? :) 18:09:08 heh 18:09:50 lyn, colorforth is not just the computer is the editor, but the editor is the application and the language is the editor is the application and the system is the language is the editor is the application... 18:10:12 colorforth messes with my brain. i cant wrap my head arround it 18:11:00 yes!! 18:11:23 isforth.clss.net 18:11:24 hehe 18:11:27 it's just, all you got is pentium ops, so write a 32bit word packing editor with class tags and store sources as running bytecode with inline text. could be very literate in the right hands. 18:11:34 Oh yes. 18:11:55 lyn, meet I440r, author of isforth. :) 18:12:13 yo 18:12:26 lyn: Another shameless suggestion: spf.sf.net 18:12:31 hehe. 18:12:43 lol 18:12:49 im a heretic amongst heretics 18:12:53 lyn, I don't have my own forth so I took up an abandoned one. :) 18:13:00 yes!!! the text is all code! 18:13:11 it wasnt abandoned, it was forced on you 18:13:13 heh 18:13:37 Raystm2: which is yours 18:14:19 I guess i'm the colorforth's guy, to include Enth/Flux, Glypher, and various colorforths. 18:14:40 Someone had to do it, it was under represented. 18:14:40 we need a big genealogy doc 18:14:52 have you seen the philosophy family tree site? 18:14:55 there is one 18:15:01 lyn: Link? 18:15:02 Quartus of Quartus Forth fame, in this chat, is working on one but there is one. 18:15:08 google it 18:15:11 Hey Quartus :) 18:15:16 hey 18:15:29 goodie! 18:15:29 A forth one, a graphical tree of forths 18:15:35 yay!!!! 18:15:42 was dreaming about it 18:15:48 what's it do? 18:16:53 What if you could travel the tree and be writing in that forth. :) 18:17:08 Now THAT's an application. 18:17:33 yeah! it could handle code updates too 18:17:49 Right 18:17:56 Wikieven? 18:17:58 distributed database 18:18:04 ya 18:19:33 distributed editor computer 18:19:57 I always thougth that the way to handle colorforths "porting" would be to have a database online that included a probe of your machine and then assembles the proper version for your system. 18:20:00 and it was mostly just ideas when you inherited it 18:20:03 YOU developerd it 18:21:09 yeah..only thing in colorforth is a network driver then? 18:21:36 No. 18:21:45 CD/DVD-RW driver. 18:21:48 no there's lots of stuff, just all over the place. 18:21:52 cm also wrote an ide interface in cf 18:21:55 i mean ideally 18:22:03 Floppies are almost gone. 18:22:07 download everything else after probe 18:22:14 There is also USB. 18:22:27 You can save to a memorystick 18:22:38 USB boot devices are still rare. 18:22:41 sweet 18:22:43 You can switch between devices on the fly. 18:23:29 Tim Neitz was interested in quick cobbleing a IDEchain version that used a device that connected memsticks to the IDE chain. 18:23:45 Then you could switch between the stick and the HDD. 18:24:22 can you boot cf from cd? 18:24:23 But he's not said any more about it in over a year. 18:24:42 I don't see why not. But I don't know the cd process, myself. 18:24:47 lyn: Booting is not a problem. 18:24:57 The problem is saving the state. 18:25:05 yes 18:25:05 Can't be much different then the disks? 18:25:11 ya. 18:25:29 i suppose i could burn a cd per day 18:25:43 backup regime 18:25:50 If you don't overwrite the kernel, then saving state is just swaping from memory to memory on the hdd. 18:25:53 You need CF to support burning. 18:25:54 scatter copies all over the drive 18:26:02 ya. 18:26:29 kewl..just need a partition then 18:26:46 ya. prolly needs to be first, I bet. 18:26:55 hmm 18:27:24 I wouldn't risk my HDD. 18:27:38 Restoring gigabytes is too slow process. 18:27:41 i got a spare pentium! 18:28:44 ya lyn I've got one two. This could be a fun project. I've been dieing to get two pentium twos to communicate with colorforth. Been putting that off as well. 18:29:07 lyn what machine are you running? 18:30:01 not sure...really recent standard intel board though 18:30:15 OS? 18:30:19 Win. 18:30:33 I don't think he's running win32forth under WINE. 18:30:49 Or other emulator. 18:31:09 running debian 18:31:23 on my xp laptop now 18:31:28 cool. 18:31:48 Why the hell you're using win32forth then? 18:32:05 good ans forth on windows 18:32:15 laptop 18:32:20 lyn please goto "MyComputer/properties" and read any chip info. 18:34:02 hmm 18:34:24 laptop is amd 18:34:30 1.3ghz 18:34:45 debian box not running 18:34:50 okay. :) 18:35:15 just trying to figure out what you might beable to run. 18:35:18 gotta back it up, but first install wireless, but first install mouse! 18:35:29 I see. 18:35:42 need cheap mouse 18:35:55 craigslist? 18:36:30 Walmart? :) 18:36:40 hehe 18:36:48 indeed! 18:36:59 Neighbor, prolly. 18:37:48 so we find all the drivers out there, store em on a server, write an ip stack, program an update process 18:38:14 select a base cf system 18:39:03 what else 18:40:02 ya, and optional block concatenator that builds the bytecode source section with your choices of applications included, and properly sewn together. All completely self descriptive, litterate code. 18:40:02 We have TCP/IP in Forth. 18:40:10 You need port it only. 18:40:53 That's the use of CFAN which we lack. 18:41:10 CFAN? :) 18:41:50 Uhu. 18:42:01 but an application is just...a word? 18:42:17 "Application" is just a word. 18:42:24 heh 18:42:27 Application is more than a word. 18:43:06 can't we say that an app is a forth word which expects a subset of the universe's forth words already installed "here"? 18:43:31 app description is then a set of required words, each one universally unique 18:43:33 We can. 18:43:56 each programmer signs their own words and relies on others 18:44:01 That's what Ray means, when he speaks about "block concatenator". 18:44:09 in colorforth most applications are made of source blocks and a load statement to load, compile, and run that code. 18:44:35 Tippically the name of the application is the load statement. 18:44:39 It's like "make" applied to blocks and packaging. 18:44:45 but there are design challenges when going distributed... 18:44:46 right. 18:44:57 applications are re-compiled on the fly. 18:45:26 when you write a new application or fix a bug, you propogate the change to all subscribers? 18:45:28 the dictionary is constantly emptied and re-loaded depending on application. 18:45:54 this is very fast in most cases taking less the perceptable time. 18:46:02 the+n 18:46:53 ReBooting is often necessary, but there is a warmboot that will dump and reload the entire system in the order you wish. 18:47:10 cool 18:47:38 the system is in memory and that is what you are editing. 18:47:51 when you save, it writes back to disk. 18:48:15 hardboot will reload from disk. 18:48:25 warmboot from memory. 18:48:37 there is a 'mark' 18:48:43 I don't like frequent hard boot. 18:49:03 I means going through POST and the stuff. 18:49:07 things defined before the mark need to be bullet proof, well tested code, must play nice. 18:49:11 ya. 18:49:31 ah! 18:49:36 wow 18:50:24 ASau: I often have several boot configs for a machine so that the hard boot process is fast as possible, while still being able to run the normal os with a normal hard boot process. 18:50:57 I don't like rebooting at all. 18:51:12 It's a waste of time. 18:51:30 lyn: the developers process is pretty bondage-like. but in a way that simplifies development. 18:51:31 When you're thinking intensively, it's *very* bad. 18:51:57 Like I said earlier, the warmboot is the normal process and it is imperceptably fast. 18:53:02 Do you mean something like "RAM disk" when you speak about 18:53:03 *** "warm boot"? 18:53:08 Ya, you don't normally need to hard boot, you can read the disk back in over the current image, only needing to reboot if the floppy driver becomes currupt or if you aliased it for some funcionality and screwed it up. 18:53:25 Aha. 18:53:33 ya, the image in memory is the source AND the running code. 18:53:54 I misunderstood you then. 18:54:01 are hard to find memory bugs common for you? 18:54:08 The editor saves source as runnable bytecode and displays that byte code as text 18:55:06 comments included, no? 18:55:08 lyn, if you learn the system and what everything does, then only you and the code you add to it are the error, so look at what you just did because this is an incremental code-test-run-repeat system. 18:55:13 yes 18:55:44 and the bugs don't hide for a while before manifesting? 18:56:01 brb 18:56:17 This is where forth factoring techinics come in. 18:57:02 In a small system things are pretty intame. You get to know your blocks by name and number pretty well. 18:57:14 intimate even yikes. 18:57:14 I hope that reading the whole file into memory is faster 18:57:16 *** and won't cause problems... 18:57:43 Ray, there was trick like this: 18:57:55 : loads create , does> @ load ; 18:58:29 Forth-79 file system. 18:59:11 AFAIR it was in that standard, but I may be wrong as well. 19:00:05 Lets see, a colorforth equiv might look like this in forth 19:00:05 : dump 32 load ; 19:00:24 because you would give the actual block number. 19:00:52 the dump word would appear on a block very early in the block chain, in a grouping of such words that act like a menu. 19:01:28 the word to actually run the code would be the last word called in the chain of blocks that load the application, defined with-in those blocks. 19:02:43 I've developed some simple block navigation words to get around pretty fast, normally by name of application that i can look up on a block list in the editor. 19:03:00 Maybe it's possible to modify "loads" so it would run the 19:03:01 *** word with the same name but from loaded set. 19:03:08 It should be named "runs" then. 19:04:02 In DragonForth we use pre-formatted head line. 19:04:06 I find it convienient to have words that i am still working on defined as just the constant of the block number and then two words to access everything quickly... 19:04:37 : dump 32 ; 19:04:37 : de dup edit ; 19:04:37 : dl dup load ; 19:04:40 If you want load "block" which is memo record, you just 19:04:40 *** write head line of your memo as this: 19:05:22 CHAR ( BL name BL anything 19:05:59 INCLUDED loads memos by name. 19:06:34 I don't understand why you need "dup". 19:07:25 dup leaves the block number on the stack. 19:07:33 SF editors used ": l list ;" 19:07:50 I don't understand what for you need this number left. 19:08:13 it's harmless there, can be easily removed with 'c', and is accessable to allowing me to use stack manipulation words to jump from block to block as I edit words and include them in other blocks. 19:09:07 Don't you save current block number anywhere? 19:09:20 In editor itself maybe? 19:09:50 For instance, I might like to have the current working block number, the macros block number, and maybe the main listing block all on the stack and flip'em around to navigate. I can have a word that lists these anytime I call that word. 19:10:12 Yes, it is saved in the editor. but I'm using it say... 19:10:25 dump de 19:10:31 now i'm editing, 19:10:34 dl 19:10:39 now it's loaded and running 19:10:42 empty 19:10:55 now its stoped and de i can edit again. 19:10:58 very fast. 19:12:07 Hmm. 19:12:21 I'll think around it. 19:13:09 with the exception that in most other forths de is a hex number, colorforth doesn't have that problem, digits have string types as well. 19:13:22 Probably that's because you use command mode for running 19:13:23 *** less frequently than for editing commands. 19:14:27 It's not usual practice for me. 19:15:11 When a word has finished development as is well trusted, it's load word can be : dump 32 load ; and be above the mark meaning it remains in the dictionary, always available. 19:15:15 ya. 19:15:57 All I've seen is the recommendations to consume input parameters. 19:16:30 This agrees with my own practice, I find it's easier to 19:16:31 So should new code added be suspect of currupting code above the mark, the mark is easily moved above that point. 19:16:31 *** keep stack clean. 19:16:50 Your mark is called FENCE. 19:17:03 Well, when I run code I normally do keep the stack clean but you can see how it helps with development. 19:17:08 I see. cool. 19:17:09 It was cold so in early systems. 19:17:51 Nowadays "mark" has associations with dictionary operations. 19:17:56 Like in MARKER. 19:18:04 It may be confusing. 19:18:04 ya, this is a dictionary marker 19:18:37 empt empties the dictionary to the mark. 19:19:03 'empty' calls empt then runs the system display word 'logo', a default display. 19:19:27 In earlier systems there's been word "fence", you couldn't 19:19:27 *** "forget" words behind it. 19:19:38 Unless you told: 19:19:41 FENCE OFF 19:19:45 Most applications are an extention of this 'logo' and the editor. 19:20:43 Hm. 19:20:52 "Logo" is nice name. 19:21:24 Ya, lots of context in that name. 19:21:35 It fits well the drawing of things like this: 19:21:36 i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo 19:21:37 I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8 19:21:37 I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8 19:21:37 \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo 19:21:37 `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8 19:21:37 | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8 19:21:39 ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8 19:22:24 Great googly-moogly. 19:22:33 didn't quite translate here but looks like a manora. 19:22:47