00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.02.08 00:16:19 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:43:32 --- part: edrx left #forth 01:02:28 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 01:15:16 --- nick: arke__ -> arke 01:22:55 Guten Tag! 01:23:53 hey :) 01:24:09 Whats new? 01:27:16 not much 01:27:23 playing around with lightfeather (3d engine) 01:29:14 lightfeather engine? 01:29:20 googling.. 01:33:41 i played with it a few months ago, it seems very nice :) 01:36:08 I'm thinking about using pkgsrc engine for CFAN. 01:36:53 In my view, CFAN = pkgsrc engine + DVCS. 01:37:33 + all the Forth stuff you place there into. 01:44:08 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:44:48 CFAN? DVCS? 01:45:11 DVCS=distributed version control system. 01:45:33 CFAN=comprehensive Forth archive network. 01:46:20 cfan, ok, let's look on the net, euda ;-) 01:46:58 sick, cfan without forth context in google, leads to christus stuff. 01:47:54 The main problem is gathering critical mass of men who will 01:47:54 run network service and use it daily. 01:48:18 Maybe not daily, but regularly. 02:10:54 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:11:36 Anything new? 02:11:50 Dobry den. 02:12:07 How do you say there? 02:12:10 Salam? 02:13:00 --- join: charlese (n=charlese@61.9.139.165) joined #forth 02:13:41 Good afternoon! 02:13:47 hi 02:14:13 looking for freenode and saw forth, thought I would look in 02:14:13 I don't remember you, are you new to Forth? 02:14:21 No 02:14:31 but I have never been here before 02:14:37 Aha! 02:14:51 I wrote coldforth ( cvs.cx) 02:15:13 a subroutine threaded forth for the coldfire 02:15:21 and use it everyday 02:15:34 what about yourself 02:17:24 I'm writing Lisp now :) 02:17:37 Nice language 02:17:49 Trying to revive Gforth on NetBSD. 02:18:01 I'm looking in 02:18:05 PHP 02:18:06 I moved from Cygwin in nearest past. 02:18:39 I like linux 02:18:40 My Forth activity reduced to writing problem reports. 02:19:29 Yes it's a pity it's use has decreased 02:20:03 Had to be; best dam assembler there was 02:20:15 but there is very little need for assembler now days 02:20:39 We do vision system so we still use a bit of it 02:20:47 I'm trying various rather developed Forth systems, but they fail to build. 02:20:58 but the hard stuff is now moiving to FPGA's 02:21:25 Last time I tried GFORTH worked on Linux 02:21:56 I don't want bare 0.6.2, it's 4 years behind. 02:22:25 I need newer FFI, I've written useful code with it. 02:22:52 whats FFI? 02:23:32 Foreign Function Interface. 02:24:04 Yes that would be useful 02:24:11 reva, is good, makes also cleanup when it exits 02:24:17 I don't want implement everything from scratch instead of 02:24:17 starting using foreign tools immediatly. 02:24:20 also some really cool stuff 02:25:05 ftp http://www.cvs.cx/kernel3/tr.tar.gz 02:25:05 Requesting http://www.cvs.cx/kernel3/tr.tar.gz 02:25:05 ftp: Error retrieving file - `404 Not Found' 02:25:05 02:25:12 Broken link? 02:25:19 thanks 02:25:41 find out whats wronf tomorrow. 02:26:07 It is a forth that is all written in HTML so you can look at the source online 02:28:29 Is the FFI available under Cygwin 02:28:32 ? 02:28:41 Yes. 02:29:13 I say I worked under Cygwin. 02:29:27 Is anton still working on GFORTH 02:29:30 ? 02:30:35 I used his class and object code but I havn't emailed him for years 02:30:38 I don't understand, they accepted my changes to sockets, 02:30:38 but I get no reply from mailing list for a month. 02:32:38 well my next project is getting uCforth running under linux proper on the coldfire so I'm still using forth. 02:34:37 What is the need for new Forth for Linux? 02:34:42 the last time I saw him, he said he will do something perhaps for gforth, when he gets the time. 02:34:49 Why can't you use pForth? 02:35:13 We use the coldfire it's a processor similar to the 68k 02:35:23 Why not adapt pForth, if you want something more specific? 02:36:23 Ah, you cross-compile Forth... 02:36:59 Coldforth is a complete OS written in forth 02:37:06 TCT/IP stack and all 02:37:35 it is ansi forth so the applications are portable. 02:37:54 Real TCP/IP in Forth? 02:38:01 I could look at forth inc products again, that is a good idea. 02:38:17 there new forth is subroutine threaded 02:38:37 and I don't need a decent multitasking anymore. 02:39:07 Yep real TCP/IP in forth with a proper multitasker behind it 02:39:26 multiple channels telnet, NFS 02:39:44 But I want to swap to linux 02:40:06 I need multiple language support 02:40:37 ColdForth is GPL, is TCP/IP also GPL? 02:40:40 btw. why needs a visual company forth? 02:41:18 All the real time stuff is done in forth. 02:41:43 If you go to the site cvs.com.au you will see the machines. 02:42:03 We deal with images at 20 images a second. 02:42:19 Have dealtwith 10 images a second for 20 years now 02:42:36 10 images a secomd on a 68000K 02:42:53 There was a lot of dedicated hardware then 02:43:14 Lot of assembler and forth was used to provide structure to the code. 02:43:44 Hard to beleive now when you consider the biggest problem with forth now 02:43:58 is keeping structure in large projects 02:44:36 And even back then we had proper multitasking 02:45:17 Tasks had different priorities, and you could schedule tasks to cycle 02:45:17 charlese, what would be ideal for keeping structure in large projects? what are your problems? 02:46:03 The problem with large project is you get programmers with different skills 02:46:27 It takes a lot of care to write forth that can be maintained. 02:47:00 and with C it's easier to accomplish that? or C++? 02:47:02 How does it differ from any other language? 02:47:46 Two things are different; one is Reverse polish notation 02:48:00 a lot of programmers eeem to have trouble with that 02:48:19 And the second is and was the lack of good local variable support 02:48:38 The ANSI standard failed to provide good local variables. 02:48:48 ANd it is one area where I left the standard 02:49:02 IN coldeforth and ucforth the convention is 02:49:18 in other words: you have problems with their background of languages which are based on C Style languages. 02:49:32 : name { variable variable_name etc -- variable variable_name }{ 02:49:44 variable local_name etc } 02:50:18 and variable can be replaced with fvariable, value, dvariable bytes etc 02:51:01 I don't have nay problems with FORTH, I think it is a loverly language, unfortunalty I have to manage teams 02:51:23 I have to support code over long periods of time. 02:51:26 that seems to be the price that companies who use other languages except C or Co must pay. 02:52:07 Yes, the problem is the education. 02:52:08 I see that there're many projects in Common Lisp, maybe 02:52:08 much more than in Forth, if we assume that open source area 02:52:08 reflects true state. 02:52:35 Why do you think notation matters a lot? 02:53:01 I think the Lisp and the lisp derived languages are becoming more popular 02:53:25 There are lisp ideas in PHP and Ruby I beleive. 02:53:47 I am looking hard at PHP 02:54:02 i had a look ah php, and i definitely prefer rails 02:54:10 and one of the things I like is to be able to put functions in arrays at run time 02:54:49 I haven't looked hard at rails yet 02:55:00 I think that's unexplored area in Forth. 02:55:13 At the moment I am taking a hard look at glade, that looks like a good thing 02:55:18 At least, I have not seen any code using that. 02:55:43 Forth it's easy. 02:56:02 ' function_name %data_area ! 02:56:10 %data_area @execute 02:56:34 Structure the data area as you like. 02:57:05 Thats the nice thing about forth you can do anything 02:57:49 But if you try and be too smart you write code you can't understand in 6 months 02:58:32 Going back to virl point, it is not only the programming education but the maths education 02:58:50 we learn 6+2=8 02:59:06 not 6 2 + 02:59:18 In preps 02:59:40 i'd infix and parens really helps people 02:59:54 I can't see how it differs from any other language. You 02:59:54 write the code you don't understand in 6 months in any 02:59:54 language, if you don't take special care about it. 02:59:59 3 5 3 4 5 1 2 + - * - / * is a lot less readable 03:00:38 -3 I think 03:00:45 i have no idea :) 03:01:05 but gforth says -3 03:01:19 Yes, even after years of using it you can't see it at a glance 03:02:16 But it does make a terrific embedded development system 03:02:49 i'm just saying we shouldn't start teaching post/prefix *exclusively* in schools ;) 03:02:54 ecraven: How does it differ from "3*5/(3-4*(5-(1+2)))"? 03:03:23 each operator is closer to its operands in the latter 03:03:35 i'd say its easier to read/understand for people 03:03:42 15/57 03:04:17 I say it is a matter of custom. 03:04:38 probably :) 03:04:44 You learn infix with parentheses in school for 7-8 years, 03:04:52 Yes it's a matter of custom and I went and brought a HP45 03:05:04 you learn postfix in university, if you do at all. 03:05:09 last year because I just got fed up with infix calculators 03:05:57 otoh 5 3 5 1 2 + - 4 * - / 3 * is much better 03:06:05 so it might be a matter of interleaving operands and operators 03:07:21 like you can write a formular readable or you can write it not readable 03:08:33 a good thing about rpn/pn is that it's explicit, there isn't something like left or right associativity. 03:08:54 If you take a look at scientific or engineering articles 03:08:54 you can easily find infix formulae that are completely unreadable. 03:09:03 As my math teachers said, formulars can have mystifiers and demystifiers 03:09:43 Even when you understand designations, you may be unable to 03:09:43 say what it describes and why it is so. 03:10:09 In any approximation. 03:10:13 and a lot of scientific papers have a lot of mystifiers 03:11:35 In last ten years, probably, you see how these 03:11:35 approximations become more regular 03:12:06 they're replaced by linear combinations, polynomial series etc. 03:13:32 Just because the problem of readability became more required. 03:14:33 I fail to see why postfix matters so much. 03:15:11 I tend to think the problem is in "killer application" 03:15:28 or the code that's used daily. 03:15:34 define problem? 03:15:38 The thing is the killer application with C is reusable code 03:16:28 Problem is low popularity of Forth. 03:16:40 Yes 03:16:47 Problem is unavailability of Forth tools. 03:17:07 I've programmers say they don't want to use it because it will do nother for their 03:17:09 career 03:17:44 yeah, that's probably one problem of forth, that there isn't really a standard way to save generated code to disk. I think to solve that over syntax is idiotic, because everybody wan'ts his version of syntax in forth. 03:18:00 Yes I would agrre with that, now if the browser supported forth- 03:18:07 It happened to me to find Lisp job not Forth. 03:18:27 Or if there was a IDE for forth 03:19:10 If your leaning a language for employment it's Java or C# 03:19:16 virl: I look at LISP and see they've solved this pretty easily. 03:19:20 Almost in Forth way. 03:19:52 Have you looeked much at ruby 03:19:55 So, the problem is not in Forth itself, but in availability 03:19:55 of daily used code. 03:20:38 well, lisp is a bit more popular. I know that even about the fact that I planned a forth workshop in the place where I live, but nobody was interessted on the other side a lot more people were interested in a lisp workshop. 03:20:44 I run Gforth scripts with #!, the same way as it's done by 03:20:44 Perl, Python etc. 03:22:14 everytime I read that I ask myself if I should start working again on my xell project or not. 03:22:14 I use my own Forth-written 'iconv' for "religious" reasons. 03:22:46 what is iconv 03:23:07 Recoding text tool. 03:23:27 Traslating between different character sets. 03:24:50 virl what does your xell project do? 03:28:00 it's a small bytecode vm, which should be portable and a nice tool chain. I haven't written anything yet to improve it and I only did a C implementation of the vm which hasn't yet much. so it's quite dead. 03:28:31 virl: I don't see the need for it. 03:29:02 that's why it's dead, because a lot of people everytime say when I mention that it's not needed. 03:29:04 I've seen several such projects. 03:29:37 All of them died because the result is not needed. 03:29:50 Fcode by sun does a noice job of this 03:30:02 At most one user, who is the developer. 03:30:57 I repeat, Forth interested programmers should start writing 03:30:57 applications, not system-level software. 03:32:28 There's problem with unavailability of simplest tools, like awk/sed. 03:32:43 applications based on forths which don't get supported. 03:32:56 Do you know ones? 03:33:26 If I find anything useful for me, I'm ready to maintain it, 03:33:40 in case I succede running it. 03:34:02 ok, for example the game starflight. back in 1986 03:34:18 URL? 03:34:36 I don't like it's a game. 03:34:49 It's completely unuseful to me. 03:35:38 yeah, and it's not open. whatever it was the first application which came into my mind. 03:36:40 I think forth applications when someone did it, then it was produced properitary. 03:36:41 What I want now, is mail client I could run with Gforth. 03:37:11 gforth really needs some lifting 03:37:13 I spared time for improving socket library for this. 03:37:33 I don't know why it's not standard that you can have ffi 03:38:24 I asked them to release intermediate version with newer FFI on the list, 03:38:28 they refused. 03:38:48 Try ask them, maybe you succede. 03:39:05 I don't know why in most forth systems ffi is a pita. in reva for example you have simply: " libsdl.so" lib SDL and you loaded a lib and then 1 func: SDL_Init and you loaded a function, why can't it be so easy in other forths? 03:39:33 for me gforth is a sinking ship, like bigforth. 03:39:53 I don't want this ship sunk. 03:40:12 Gforth is the only usable Forth for now. 03:40:40 bigforth would be nice, when it would be more maintained and even then it's too big to use. 03:40:54 If Gforth sink, it is the disaster to the whole Forth. 03:41:29 Gforth is the main representative of Forth systems. 03:41:29 I think when in the near future no new version of gforth comes out then this getting true. 03:41:34 It's like GCC. 03:41:47 Try write them. 03:42:12 gforth-subscribe@ChaosSolutions.org 03:42:14 when I would maintain gforth, then a lot of words would be deleted which are 'accepted by some people as nice' 03:42:17 GForth@ChaosSolutions.org 03:42:35 Just drop the idea of deleting. 03:42:45 It causes much more harm than good. 03:42:51 and I think there is another useable forth out there it's called reva. 03:43:23 I was really impressed, most of the thinks which I needed from a forth system was realized in reva. 03:43:24 If you don't use a tool, it does not mean nobody uses it. 03:44:47 why I shouldn't delete stuff? personally I think the ANS standard isn't my beer. 03:45:12 I think that's the next thing which will collapse besides gforth. 03:46:24 I think the collapse of ANS or Gforth causes collapse of 03:46:24 Forth in whole. 03:46:34 There're reasons for it. 03:46:36 whatever it's my opinion, so I use forths like reva, which make sense, do it a little bit different than standard. 03:46:57 The ANSI standard is quite nice with one or two exceptions 03:47:04 when the collapse of forth means collapse of ans forth, then I think it's good. 03:47:05 Of course, Forth may stay live at hobbyist level. 03:47:22 virl: The only Forth is ANS. 03:47:35 You just don't understand it, but it is true. 03:47:56 ASau, no. you don't know the saying: when you know one forth you know one forth 03:48:14 Any hobbyist Forth, be it Reva, Retro etc., is still hobbyist. 03:48:24 no, you don't understand it. and it's my opinion, so don't try to change it in any way. 03:48:30 You can't propagate such a thing. 03:48:33 --- quit: charlese ("Ex-Chat") 03:49:04 How could you oppose Perl or other people? 03:49:10 Assume I'm the one. 03:49:15 and what is wrong when some hobbyist did it right, what a big consortium failed to accomplish? 03:49:30 I say: Forth sucks strong because it does not run on *x. 03:49:41 I have P. on BSD. 03:49:45 I don't have Forth. 03:49:55 What's now? 03:50:33 Forth community consists of teens that cannot support major 03:50:33 platform of the Web. 03:51:10 BTW, how do I get _current_ Reva? 03:51:12 CVS? 03:51:13 SVN? 03:52:20 I get current pkgsrc collection with "ftp ftp://.../.../pkgsrc.tar.gz" command 03:52:34 and does not bother which version number it is. 03:52:47 I know it's 2 days old at most. 03:53:00 http://ronware.org/reva61.zip 03:53:16 Not http://ronware.org/reva615.zip? 03:53:56 Thus even you as user can't tell me what's the most recent version. 03:54:13 well, that's the stable version. 03:54:14 Either released or development. 03:56:04 I know that it works, compared to other forth systems which don't have the FFI I would need. 03:56:32 also it's in assembler and has some features I miss in gforth for example. 03:56:33 Now. 03:56:43 I've unpacked the stable version. 03:56:47 What do I see? 03:56:58 There're no installation instructions in README. 03:58:10 Second, I _need_ manually patch "build" script, because 03:58:10 that teenager hobbyist does not bother himself to obey 03:58:10 general rules of writing shell scripts. 03:58:11 ok, then not. it's my opinion not yours. 03:59:50 this is your so called teenager bobbyist: http://ronware.org/wiki/Pub:Resum%C3%A9 03:59:55 hobbyist 04:00:20 Allright, the dialogue with Reva ends with this: 04:00:21 $ bin/reva 04:00:21 words 04:00:21 words? 04:00:24 04:00:30 I'm back in shell. 04:00:48 What's now? 04:01:17 Is it the Forth style? 04:02:00 ASau, reva will not run under BSD 04:02:04 virl: I don't bother what's the length of resumee. 04:02:38 crc: I represent "P." (Perl/Python) programmer now. 04:03:06 If reva does not run under BSD so worse to reva, so worse 04:03:06 to Forth. 04:03:31 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 04:03:39 .. hail to gforth ... 04:03:46 My point is that Gforth is the only representative Forth 04:03:46 system now. 04:04:10 Good afternoon, ayrnieu. 04:04:12 for me it's reva. 04:04:42 virl: I've explained why you should not be counted. 04:05:05 Hobbyist Forth may live, but it's still hobbyist. 04:05:27 howdy. 04:05:35 P. is _real_ language, Forth is not. 04:05:59 and so nothing worth? sry, but this saying doesn't make forth generally useable as a real language. 04:06:33 when you can't count the hobbyist then the language is too arrogant to be serious 04:06:52 I'm explaining why death of Gforth means death of Forth as real language. 04:07:19 how has gforth died? 04:07:25 whatever, let it die. 04:07:26 Gforth is the only Forth that runs on all major platforms. 04:07:57 what does 'major' mean? 04:08:00 ayrnieu, how do you think if it is not death that we see no 04:08:00 release for 3 years. 04:08:22 oh, I only wondered if it was dead in some new and more interesting way. 04:08:26 "Major" means BSD, Linux, OSX, Windows. 04:09:00 "BSD" means all major BSDs: Free, Net, Open. 04:09:26 well, it does gforth no good to run on all of those, when it can't do anything interesting except by painstakingly ruining this fine portability. On windows you are better served by win32for, and likewise on OSX by MFR, or whatever that was. 04:09:36 AFAIK, Gforth runs on Suns, MIPSs etc. 04:09:39 any attempts to rescue forth didn't suceed so what? it will die, like other languages, it seems that the community isn't the right. 04:09:43 across unix, you also have PFE, for instance. 04:10:13 ayrnieu, do you know any good software for PFE? 04:10:30 if making gforth have regular releases and documented interfaces and portable and useful interfaces, then do it yourself. 04:10:30 ayrnieu, and you don't have PFE across UNIX. 04:10:50 asau - where do you not have PFE that you have gforth? 04:11:04 also, FICL, even if the repl is annoying. 04:11:13 ayrnieu, I'm even ready to take over. 04:11:14 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:11:16 --- join: Zarutian_ (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 04:11:38 Now, will I get support from original maintainers? 04:12:14 asau - do it! I recommend that you grab the last few releases, stuff them in ssome nice version system like svk, and then start your efforts from KnownProblems.html and then from documentation. 04:12:21 ayrnieu, I don't have neither PFE, nor FICL, under systems 04:12:21 where the only package system is pkgsrc. 04:13:04 uh, 'do it yourself' means 'do it yourself'. If Anton and such support you after to the fact -- fine, but asking the question now only delays the efforts you, by yourself, will need to do to see results. 04:13:07 ayrnieu, I'm not ready to fight the system, which I fail to build. 04:13:27 asau - under *whatÂ* systems? I get PFE on OpenBSD/zaurus, where gforth fails.. 04:13:50 ayrnieu, under *any* system where the only package system 04:13:50 is pkgsrc. 04:14:15 I don't consider installing from source when there is 04:14:15 package system. 04:14:37 what does that mean? Do you mean that you can't consider these other systems because you don't have ready-made packages in your particular package system? 04:14:42 Using package system distinguishes real software from 04:14:42 hobbyist one. 04:15:24 OK, you should forget entirely about maintaining gforth, or otherwise doing any of this yourself. You can't even make a package for this system. 04:15:38 I don't say "ready-made", I tell about "I can't" or "unable 04:15:38 to". 04:15:51 morever: you haven't started, and are instead asking irrelevant questions like 'will the maintainers support me?' 04:16:22 I've started and even got some positive results. 04:16:47 I mailed them to Gforth mailing list, but I don't recieve 04:16:47 any feedback. 04:16:53 OK, good. Post a link to your VCS repo and tell comp.lang.forth about it. 04:16:54 *Any* 04:17:07 uh, right, because that is the dead community you are replacing. 04:17:34 And more. 04:17:57 I'm not ready maintaining system without any feedback. 04:18:10 The only machine I have is NetBSD. 04:18:21 No even Linux box handy. 04:20:14 uh, look: the community is dead, which is why you feel compelled to do this work. Now you whine that you won't do the work because the community is dead? Fucking do it, show interesting results, talk about your -- omgosh! -- *documented* multitasking and FFI interfaces; talk about your new easy networking and graphics interfaces, and tell comp.lang.forth about. Get deserved feedback from people who care because they're happy that you h 04:21:07 that probably got cut off: Get deserved feedback from people who care because they're happy that you have done something. 04:34:07 which forth btw. have a proper ability to get the information in which registers the stack pointer is or the TOS is? I know retroforth, reva and colorforth. are there any forths which have that too? except those I mentioned. 04:35:13 the remaining forths are mostly written in C and then there are problems with the registers. 04:36:05 --- nick: Zarutian_ -> Zarutian 04:36:30 imho, that's something which should be in the standard. 05:02:03 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.252.218) joined #forth 05:04:59 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54895A97.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:05:42 An optiizing forth may not keep the TOS in a single register over the entire life of a function, especially if it inlines code. 05:08:15 ayrnieu: This is the problem of community too. 05:08:19 The community does not seem to encourage such activity. 05:09:13 "Write your own" and "do it yourself" is not the best way. 05:09:35 How do I test the code I write under Linux? 05:09:42 I don't have one. 05:10:27 What do you have? 05:10:31 Do anyone on this channel checked CVS Gforth under Linux 05:10:31 when I asked? 05:10:35 NetBSD. 05:10:59 Hmmm. No VMWare for NetBSD, that I know of. 05:11:30 When I type "/names" I see about a dozen of humans, 05:11:37 when I ask, noone answers. 05:12:06 1) I just got up. 2) I don't have CVS Gforth on this box. 05:12:10 TreyB: That's not a problem, I run Linux version of 05:12:10 LispWorks and SP-Forth for Windows. 05:12:35 I don't address you personally, I don't address anyone personally, 05:12:53 but what about this? 05:13:06 Sorry, I overstated, tathi answered. 05:13:50 1/10? 1/20? 05:14:27 Do you write from Forth OSes where you don't have GNU tools? 05:15:24 All the OSes I use have GNU tools: WinXP, Linux, Mac OS X. 05:16:53 I no longer use BeOS or PalmOS (I worked on the dev team for both OSes), but BeOS had GNU tools native and PalmOS 6 did not. 05:17:22 Did that answer your question? 05:20:59 Are you able to bootstrap CVS Gforth? 05:21:14 I can provide you with instructions. 05:21:25 Maybe, even shell script. 05:21:57 I probably could. Instructions would make it go faster. 05:22:34 Alright, wait a bit. 05:23:19 /bin/sh script? 05:23:31 That'll work. 05:25:44 It seems I need CVS first. 05:26:08 * TreyB waits for the emerge to finish. 05:28:23 Ok, I have checke out a CVS copy of the gforth source. 05:31:22 http://forth.pastebin.ca/345365 05:31:22 Do you want something other than just ./BUILD-FROM-SCRATCH ? 05:31:29 No. 05:31:34 It worked under Cygwin 05:31:50 I.e. 3-5 monthes ago. 05:32:13 Maybe more, 5-8 monthes ago. 05:34:34 Does it still hang as described in the online docs? 05:36:39 I advanced as far as this: http://forth.pastebin.ca/327933 05:36:45 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:36:55 I don't have time to spare on this currently. 05:37:05 It involves thorough work. 05:45:35 ASau: The build hangs for me, and doing a 'killall gforth' as described on the web page (http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/cvs-public/) doesn't work. 05:46:11 killall -9 gforth 05:47:40 In my case build does not hang. 05:48:17 I have to patch source as described above 05:48:47 and I get Gforth that does not pass its self-tests. 05:49:04 Even when I switch part of them off. 05:51:18 I use their 'stable version' and it has some problems with the configuration file. whatever it is, I'm too lazy to look deeper into it. 05:53:04 0,6,2 does not support configuration file as it is stated 05:53:04 in documentation. 05:56:04 I wish you good luck when you want to maintain the behemoth of gforth 05:56:17 like bigforth. 05:57:48 That's not hard. 05:58:15 It seems you never tried to maintain anything. 06:02:08 well, we will see. 07:00:47 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 07:02:49 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 07:18:08 assembler is more popular than forth, bah even fortran has a bigger community. 07:18:20 I'm simply depressed. 07:19:56 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 07:20:36 Of course, Fortran is more popular! 07:20:53 There's plenty of useful Fortran source code. 07:21:01 More than in C. 07:25:26 aha, so why don't I stumble over fortran code every day? 07:39:33 Do you work with numeric analysis? 07:39:48 Ever heard of BLAS? 07:39:51 LAPACK? 07:40:27 Quantum chemistry? 07:40:32 Hydrodynamics? 07:42:41 no, I don't. 07:44:26 These are fields where Fortran has major applications. 07:44:41 There're no other players now. 07:51:11 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54895A97.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:55:00 --- quit: grub_booter (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:40:46 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@70.102.202.162) joined #forth 08:40:51 argh i found a bug in isforth 08:40:57 $800 17 << returns 0 08:50:09 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:01:23 lol 09:01:37 ok, i ws having a blond moment. what i needed to type was $800 11 << 09:01:41 i was in HEX haha 09:01:42 phew 09:01:43 no bug 09:02:37 HEX. Don't use hexadecimal. 09:04:36 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:04:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 09:46:04 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@200.217.105.108) joined #forth 09:47:45 --- part: edrx left #forth 09:57:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:57:32 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 10:26:22 hey 10:26:44 --- part: Quartus_ left #forth 10:26:56 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 10:26:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 10:28:59 Dobryj vecher! 10:38:44 how would that actually be pronounced? 10:39:03 is the J silent ? 10:42:13 "J" is short "i", it's not silent. 10:43:25 --- join: zpg (n=user@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 10:43:33 hi all. 10:52:33 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:53:32 "Y" is... 10:53:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yery 10:53:52 Good evening, zpg. 10:55:07 hi ASau 10:55:30 Wah! 10:55:46 I've realized that "quark" has Slavic roots. 11:11:53 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.0.4 $Revision: 1.726.2.19 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 11:39:13 --- join: grub_booter (n=charlie@d54C37C64.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 11:46:15 hi grub_booter 12:08:25 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 12:16:57 --- quit: grub_booter (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:49:03 --- join: grub_booter (n=charlie@d54C37C64.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 12:55:16 --- join: Snoopy17 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-144-116.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:03:27 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 13:03:41 --- nick: Snoopy17 -> Snoopy42 13:12:45 --- join: zarchne (n=michael@69.1.105.179) joined #forth 13:14:35 It seems that there is no easy way to dynamically-load C libraries into Forth, correct? 13:15:40 depends on the forth 13:15:41 many offer ffi's 13:17:56 virl: fortran is slowly dying though 13:18:03 very few people write new code in fortran 13:18:20 it will still be around for decades to come, but its heyday has passed 13:20:32 It looks like some variant of a functional language will take Fortran's place as the prefered language for number crunching. 13:20:48 i hope its ocaml 13:21:19 Well, of those that are in Debian (I see g, k, p, and y forth, and pfe), is there one that's especially good at it (I scanned the docs for gforth). 13:21:48 (Has a good C FFI, I mean.) 13:21:50 i haven't used either one's ffi, but i think gforth has a good ffi 13:22:52 I have no opinion on which one, slava. I only base my guess on the no-pointers-and-no-side-effects features of functional languages leading towards more aggressive optimization and automatic parallelization. 13:23:13 ocaml has side effects 13:23:19 but you're right 13:23:33 Monads don't count :-) 13:23:41 no, ocaml has real side effects 13:23:54 Really? I haven't studied it. 13:24:00 they're isolated, in a sense 13:24:04 * zarchne thought all languages have side effects, it's just a matter of how aware you are when you do it.... 13:24:06 but not to the extent that monads do 13:24:26 whatever gforths ffi is, it's not a real working ffi. my debian package version of gforth for example doesn't really work. 13:24:34 hmm 13:24:42 what about retrofforth then? 13:27:00 is reTROFForth related to PostScript? 13:27:07 retroforth 13:27:09 no it isn't 13:27:11 heh 13:27:18 * zarchne grins. 13:27:18 He made a funny ;-) 13:30:54 Looks like good stuff, though, thanks slava. 13:31:35 tee hee 13:32:49 I dislike three things about gforths ffi: 1) when you want that it runs better then you need avcall lib 2) function definitions are for my taste too complex 3) and then it tends not to run, when you use the oldlib thing 13:33:04 what do functio ndefinitions look like? 13:36:10 proc: ( pars type lib "name" "string" -- ) whatever that means in reality 13:37:11 in reva or retroforth it's simply: 1 func: 13:37:26 for a function with one argument. 13:37:54 FUNCTION: int open ( char* path, int flags, int prot ) ; 13:39:08 hmm? where is that mentioned? 13:39:41 or is that how factor does it? 13:40:12 yup 13:40:15 its more verbose than retroforth 13:40:24 but you document parameter types and names this way 13:40:53 well, I like the retroforth way 13:41:03 slava: the type consumes a name up to a , or ) ? 13:42:44 the ffi of factor probably should be included into gforth 13:45:07 that's for example something which would be acceptable and would work better than this current patchwork. 13:45:40 virl: how does retroforth handle passing floats? 13:46:23 probably not, but floats are normally 32bit wide so it's not a problem 13:47:00 with 'probably not' I meant the explicit passing of data types. 13:47:28 floats are passed on the x86 fp stack 13:47:38 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:48:14 oh, well I didn't know that, so I learned something new. 13:52:33 Is there a bot here that I could have asked what factor is (http://www.factorcode.org/, I take it.) 13:53:26 yes, Quartus_ 13:53:34 he's our programmable bot 13:54:25 * zarchne is dubious. 13:58:57 lol, asking Quartus_ the bot 13:58:57 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:00:56 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 14:00:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 14:55:20 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E0571F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:55:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 14:59:00 --- quit: ayrnieu (Connection timed out) 15:16:45 --- quit: arke (Remote closed the connection) 16:16:43 good evening 16:49:56 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096668571.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 17:07:25 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E0571F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:07:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 17:25:48 --- quit: grub_booter (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:20:33 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:27:04 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 18:54:40 --- join: azekeprofit_ (i=azekePro@82.200.252.218) joined #forth 18:54:41 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:54:48 --- nick: azekeprofit_ -> azekeprofit 18:57:10 hey 18:57:17 yo 18:57:24 whazza? 18:57:31 compiling erlang 18:57:43 oic 19:01:52 --- quit: Crest (Remote closed the connection) 19:09:52 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:17:33 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:17:58 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-166-006.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:37:24 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 20:37:27 --- join: uiuiuiu (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth 22:20:18 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 22:27:40 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 22:43:47 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:19:19 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:23:11 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:56:31 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:58:53 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E07BCA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.02.08