00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.02.06 00:16:55 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:30:51 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:33:41 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 00:46:34 --- join: grub_booter (n=charlie@d54C37C64.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 00:47:10 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 00:55:14 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 01:17:35 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:22:12 --- quit: ecraven ("brb") 01:22:53 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 01:42:07 --- join: arke (n=chris@x473.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 01:42:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 01:44:46 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 02:43:59 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 03:48:16 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 04:08:28 --- nick: Zarutian_ -> Zarutian 04:46:32 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-70-242-7-95.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 05:39:58 --- join: ASau (n=user@62.118.220.74) joined #forth 05:40:13 Good evening! 05:44:46 Hello, ASau. Good evening/morning. :) 05:56:32 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 05:59:32 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-62-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:03:13 --- quit: Raystm2 (Nick collision from services.) 06:03:31 --- nick: Raystm2- -> Raystm2 06:06:02 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 06:06:37 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-62-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:10:24 --- quit: grub_booter (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:17:58 It looks like #emacs is not the place to find help in Emacs Lisp. 06:28:04 --- join: grub_booter (n=charlie@d54C37C64.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 06:28:26 Good evening, grub_booter. 06:30:21 hi ASau 06:30:34 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@200.217.105.153) joined #forth 06:30:38 doing some sdl stuff in reva is quite nice 06:30:52 Good evening, edrx. 06:31:16 hi ASau 06:31:33 Off topic. 06:31:41 edrx: Do you program in Emacs Lisp? 06:31:54 yes, a lot 06:32:02 Wah! 06:32:07 do you? 06:32:18 Take a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/36473 06:32:50 I asked this at #emacs, but it looks that channel is not 06:32:50 proper place for such questions. 06:33:21 'proper place for such question'? why? how did they react? 06:33:30 hmm, I've never used xml-rpc 06:33:37 With silence, virl. 06:33:58 I don't even know what it it, actually (besides what I can infer from the name, of course) 06:34:07 s/it it/it is/ 06:34:55 As far as I understood, the problem is connected with 06:34:55 trailing cr's. 06:34:59 But... 06:35:39 In Emacs 22 the code works, in Emacs 21.4 it does not. 06:35:42 btw I've been trying to design forth-like languages that would use emacs as their front-end 06:35:58 oooo 06:36:22 so http://time.xmlrpc.com/RPC2 sends back data with crs that confuse emacs22? 06:36:41 No, emacs21 is confused, emacs22 is ok. 06:36:47 sorry 06:37:13 ...and you're stuck with emacs21 at some machine? 06:37:24 In both cases I see "^M" at line ends in " *http: ...*" buffer. 06:37:52 I am to port my code to '21, because it's current stable. 06:38:00 :1,$ s/ctrl-v ctrl-m// 06:38:10 (I'm paid for this, at last.) 06:38:37 oops - you're using the inferior editor 06:38:40 ;-) 06:38:45 wow, I want to be paid to write code for emacs like you when I grow up 06:39:09 grub_booter: Patching the library is the last resort. 06:39:39 hey grub_booter - do you know any implementation of colorforth that can be booted from grub? 06:39:56 can't you just chainload it? 06:40:12 edrx: Do you mean "multiboot standard compliant"? 06:40:16 yeah 06:40:20 Good evening, Jen. 06:40:44 edrx: nope - but then, other than booting stuff, i don't use grub at all :-) 06:40:54 or any other tricks for making grub boot a colorforth image 06:41:22 edrx: There's example how to write multiboot images. 06:41:30 It comes with nasm, AFAIR. 06:42:14 oo, that's nice - I'll take a look at it later 06:42:56 one of the few "weird" examples of booting a small standalone program from grub was this: http://www.erikyyy.de/invaders/ 06:43:18 hiya ASau 06:44:54 Anything new in Forth? 06:45:54 nope 06:46:35 ASau: I just (re)installed nasm here... do you remember where was the multiboot example? 06:46:58 edrx: It should be called "multiboot..." 06:47:04 find . -name multi\* 06:47:34 If it's not there, I'm wrong. 06:47:53 the only thing with "multi" in the nasm package here is /usr/share/doc/nasm/examples/multisection.asm 06:48:07 but this is debian stable, I'll try to download the upstream version later 06:48:13 thanks for the pointer anyway 06:48:21 Try GRUB source or FASM. 06:48:59 I do remember I've seen it, I don't remember where. 06:49:41 Amanita_Virosa: I moved to NetBSD and lost Gforth support. 06:49:57 ah 06:50:03 And it seems my mail is lost when I write them about bugs. 06:50:04 ouch 06:50:09 ah 06:51:09 They refuse to release newer version. 06:51:25 3 years with this 0.6.2! 06:51:36 don't let the gentoo people hear about that 06:51:43 or they'll take THAT out of portage too 06:51:48 * Amanita_Virosa mutters 06:52:32 Allah akbar! I've almost forgotten those time when I used Gentoo. 06:52:54 It was hell. 06:54:03 BTW, do you have BSD box at hand? 06:54:20 Free/Open? 06:54:25 only if you count OSX :P 06:54:33 Hmm. 06:55:01 Isn't it FreeBSD at user level? 06:55:14 "which lam"? 06:55:25 eh? 06:55:29 "which pkill", "which pgrep"? 06:55:46 there's a lam, but neither of the last two 06:57:11 "man -c lam | head -1"? 06:57:31 BSD General Commands Manual 06:57:53 It looks like FreeBSD. 06:58:57 well, the prompt is bsd-based. 06:59:03 May I ask your assistance? 06:59:12 i'll see what i can do 07:00:27 Try this http://forth.pastebin.ca/327933 07:00:31 wait 07:00:43 there're prerequisites. 07:01:04 it sure looks that way 07:01:18 there's no build software on this machine 07:01:21 Get Gforth sources: 07:01:23 cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at:/nfs/unsafe/cvs-repository/src-master co gforth 07:01:38 Hmm. 07:01:55 I don't know what to do in this case. 07:02:23 Machine without build tools is almost unusable. 07:02:52 i so know 07:02:58 it's not my mac, or i'd install xcode 07:03:01 it's across the room 07:03:03 i'm using a gentoo machine 07:03:27 Can you build current Gforth on Linux? 07:03:38 i have no idea? 07:03:49 Checkout the source and "sh BUILD-FROM-SCRATCH". 07:04:15 what are you having trouble with? 07:04:15 It should work if you have installed autotools and Gforth 0.6.2. 07:04:32 The only box I have is NetBSD. 07:05:19 I can't build CVS Gforth without patching (see the shar) at all, 07:05:58 and with patches (taken partly from pkgsrc), Gforth does 07:05:58 not pass its checks. 07:07:31 I have to disconnect - dial-up here 07:07:34 BTW, on Linux you use "m4" not "gm4". 07:07:35 ttyl 07:07:39 Bye! 07:07:44 ah 07:08:08 btw I've downloaded the upstream grub, nasm and tasm - more later :) 07:08:27 --- part: edrx left #forth 07:08:28 "gm4" is GNU version. 07:08:39 m4. heh. nasty language. 07:08:42 i used to use it, way back 07:08:46 nasty. nasty language. 07:09:22 I think it's nice. 07:09:49 Though, it should be used with care. 07:10:01 indeed. 07:10:08 well, i've used it for a few things that worked out well 07:18:02 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:19:28 Hi virl. Working in reva now? I've never tryed. What's your impression, I mean, what do you think is "quite nice", please? 07:21:53 edrx: Hi I'm Ray St. Marie and I fasion myself the local colorforth interested party. No grubloader as far as I can tell. 07:22:18 Retroforth has used grub, tho. 07:23:04 reva is a nice small system with a lots of features and the plus of it's speed orientation and a compressed dictionary. 07:25:16 Sounds interesting. 07:25:24 Yikes I see edrx has left. 07:26:26 Oh well. I'm interested to see if edrx gets colorforth to boot with the grub loader. I can't say why you'd want to do such a thing, it has it's own boot code, but I assume he's moving the image to the HDD, maybe? 07:27:27 Besides, edrx didn't mention which version of colorforth. 07:27:45 virl, have you been in the loop with crc's toka experiments? 07:29:41 not really, I only looked at toka only once. 07:33:24 virl: What do you do in SDL? 07:36:03 I'm writing some sdl bindings, perhaps for a game. 07:37:19 for that I do a combination of forth and C code. a C code does all that ugly C->Forth translation. getting the size of some data structs and so on. 07:40:50 I think I'm getting about 3 times more spam now than I was a few days ago. did this happen to everybody? 07:41:00 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d3a7398f3ca8fb2f) joined #forth 07:41:15 it's coming to a variety of e-mail addresses and through my contact form 07:43:19 Good evening, Kiev. 07:43:24 What's new? 07:43:35 virl: Why do you use C for this? 07:44:17 Isn't it better to do with shell scripts? 07:45:33 hi moscow :) 07:46:13 (In Levitan's voice:) "Govorit Moskva!" 07:46:19 bot now retrieves RSS from fforum and ForthWiki and announces new items on the russian forth channel.. 07:46:27 "Rabotajut vse radiostancii..." 07:46:40 ASau, no.. SDL is written in C, so when you want to get some sizes of a struct for example then it's better to use the language in which it was written. 07:47:34 then I can say for example SDL_Surface printf("%d constant $surface", sizeof(SDL_Surface)); 07:48:02 ygrek: do you have URL of current spf4.exe at hand? 07:48:17 which can be later included in a forth file. 07:48:27 on sf.net 07:48:37 ygrek: I've suddenly recalled I wanted to organize SPF builds. 07:48:37 whole distro 07:48:47 and so you have 100% working sizes or offsets under any envireonment 07:49:32 not much left to organize :) 07:58:03 It would be better, if you distributed ZIP, not RAR. 07:58:22 RAR is not free outside of ex-USSR. 07:58:28 7z? 07:58:36 tar.bz2! 07:58:56 zip is proprietary (rar too though..) 07:59:16 zip isn't especially proprietary 07:59:20 Info-ZIP is free. 07:59:23 it's just DEFLATE with a wrapper 07:59:24 RAR is not. 07:59:33 DEFLATE is the same damn system as gzip 07:59:43 so the file formats are slightly different but the compression is basically the same 08:00:43 Jen, AFAIK you can't patent compression in Russia. 08:01:25 Russia is much more sane country in this case. 08:01:26 software patents are often not upheld in canada either, but that's not even really the point 08:02:06 ok. will consider zip 08:02:10 The main objection to RAR is in software product license. 08:02:39 RAR is licensed for free to ex-USSR residents. 08:07:52 And RAR is almost unavailable outside of ex-USSR for the 08:07:52 reason above. 08:08:46 This almost locks SPF to RuFIG & nearest surrounding. 08:08:50 I see. How many sp-forth users are there in non-ex-USSR? 08:09:03 there is a nifty exe installer 08:09:10 so that's not the problem 08:09:20 the problem is that is is russian. 08:10:14 Russian documentation is a drawback, 08:10:31 but the lack of documentation is common to Forth systems. 08:10:42 Consider FICL or PFE. 08:10:56 Distribution in proprietary format, 08:11:31 I mean format that is usable only with proprietary program 08:12:02 which is (in addition) rather infrequent in use, 08:12:15 such distribution cause more harm to SP-Forth. 08:12:32 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.252.218) joined #forth 08:12:56 Hi, Azamad. 08:13:49 Hey!.. How are you doing?.. 08:14:06 I'm fine. 08:14:38 I'm trying to rebuild SP-Forth from source under WINE. 08:14:40 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:17:30 Allright, there's known problem with pthreads in WINE. 08:23:30 * azekeprofit made cascaded deifinitions in SPF... 08:25:30 What do you mean? 08:25:55 :noname defers this ; is this ( ? ) 08:27:24 : 2*2. 2 08:27:25 : 2*. 2 * 08:27:25 : dot . ; 08:27:25 > 2*2. 08:27:25 > 4 08:27:25 > 10 2*. 08:27:27 > 20 08:27:29 > 5 dot 08:27:31 > 5 08:28:07 Ah. 08:28:13 Multiple entry points. 08:28:19 Uhum. 08:28:34 Dividing codefile and dictionary.. 08:29:14 join #forth-rus 08:29:24 I had to project vocabulary to hash-structure.. And it worked.. 08:29:33 It is hard to understand your English. 08:29:36 Even to me. 08:31:18 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Woops!") 08:31:24 ygrek: What IRC client do you use? 08:32:01 xchat 08:34:00 The problem's gone. 09:01:09 The main problem of web interface is it's almost unusable 09:01:16 comparing with real IRC client. 09:01:55 The main problem of RusNet channel is it's underpopulated. 09:02:30 what I hate about writing bindings for a C library, is that when a function is in reality a #define, that makes it harder to translate. 09:02:32 7 users counting bots is too few. 09:02:33 * azekeprofit doesn't giva a .. doesn't care .. 09:03:42 Spreading activity over different networks gives no profit 09:03:42 for the community in whole. 09:04:51 And in part too. 09:05:43 If I want to write in Forth for some specific needs, 09:06:07 I'm almost unable to get help on RusNet channel. 09:06:25 Because it's too specific. 09:06:51 It's almost exclusively locked into SPF. 09:07:24 If it's hard to understand in English, I can repeat it in Russian. 09:07:29 In written. 09:07:57 treat it as SPF help channel 09:07:59 Article for a dozen screens. 09:08:22 There's no need for such channel. 09:08:30 sure? 09:08:39 and can this channel give help on SPF? 09:08:48 It would be better if SPF community moved to FreeNode. 09:09:18 Either for SPF and the whole Forth community. 09:10:19 If the question is somewhat general, I can recieve help in 09:10:20 almost any other Forth dialect. 09:10:24 Even colored. 09:10:30 and for the russain-speaking spf users too. 09:11:30 If the question is closely tighted to SPF or to unusual 09:11:30 problem domain, hardly anyone can help you either in SPF or in 09:11:30 any other dialect. 09:11:47 Russian is not a problem. 09:12:22 We can start additional channel to talk in Russian. 09:12:43 Being separated by network we can't share ideas and code 09:12:43 across dialects. 09:13:25 Even standard implementations, if this be the case. 09:14:31 Current state is such as I explained above: Russian 09:14:31 community locks itself in a can. 09:15:30 As I explained to azekeprofit recently, RuFIG does have things to share. 09:15:53 Code, ideas, experience. 09:16:13 But it does not want to share it. 09:16:38 And it loses in feedback and in quality. 09:17:20 RuFIG has free open source (FOS) web servers, 09:17:47 which I can't build even after hints from the main developer. 09:18:28 Hardly these web servers could be built by other Forth users, 09:18:50 not every of them are hackers, for your information. 09:19:14 people at RuFIG are busy. those who have spare time - try to be useful for the community. 09:19:39 RuFIG has the experience of producing software for desktop users. 09:19:57 *Really* useful software for desktop users. 09:20:23 This experience is unknown to Forth community outside of RuFIG. 09:21:00 ygrek: Everyone is busy, it does not depend on any group membership. 09:21:15 so? 09:22:02 So why do RuFIG members lose their time at RusNet 09:22:02 underpopulated channel? 09:22:27 who are the rufig members there? 09:22:33 Again, I consider 6 names (including at least one 09:22:33 non-human) as underpopulated. 09:22:43 Don't be formal. 09:23:04 people do what they like. 09:23:07 RuFIG = Russian Forth Interested Group. 09:23:13 for me personnaly that channel is much more interesting 09:23:20 You're interested in Forth, so you're member of RuFIG. 09:23:54 ok. agree. but font ask me for other people please :) 09:23:59 "dont" 09:24:02 Alright. 09:24:20 You're 5 persons. 09:24:37 Just move here. 09:25:02 Let's start new channel, if you want your bot service. 09:25:39 Will it make any difference?.. 09:25:45 Yes. 09:26:23 You gain support of being on the same IRC network as the 09:26:23 other IRC users from Forth community. 09:26:55 OK. Count me in and let's wait and see what will happen. 09:26:56 You gain FreeNode services, like memos etc. 09:27:22 * azekeprofit still doesn't care for any IRC- bla-bla.. whatever.. 09:27:38 You're listed as being online even if you hang on the other channel. 09:28:18 I am 1 (one) person. 09:29:01 Who maintains bot? 09:29:23 JFI. 09:29:24 which one? 09:29:44 Are there more than one bot? 09:30:08 I am puzzled. Where? 09:30:37 * ygrek is away: 09:32:41 Wasn't there a quotation bot on that channel? 09:36:16 both are :) 09:45:08 Alright, those, who understand Russian may join #forth-rus. 09:45:48 It might be interesting discussion there. 09:46:22 It supports my thesis that RuFIG community has many ideas 09:46:23 to share but does not want to. 10:01:33 maybe 10:10:59 Why you say "maybe"? 10:11:07 Ever tried? 10:11:39 ideas are open. spf-dev is always helpful 10:12:41 People are lazy. 10:12:55 thats not the problem of the rufig - agree? 10:13:15 That's the problem of RuFIG. 10:13:21 no :) 10:13:24 Staying locked in your can you won't gain anything. 10:13:33 The main community is here. 10:13:40 hmm 10:13:59 Here are those who pushes Forth forward, not at spf-dev. 10:14:13 and at spf-dev they push spforth forward 10:14:16 and happy with it 10:14:22 How many RuFIG members ever wrote to standard list? 10:14:25 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 10:14:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 10:14:47 I mean the list where newer standard is developed. 10:14:53 Did you? 10:15:05 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:15:27 The current state, I've to repeat it again, is this: 10:16:02 RuFIG locks itself into its own can. 10:17:04 spf-dev is low traffic. 10:17:30 ask questions - there will be more traffic... 10:17:56 Who will ask these questions? 10:18:06 Those who are interested 10:18:12 * gnomon sticks up a hand 10:18:13 I will! 10:18:14 *really* interested 10:19:13 Dont measure usefullness by traffic. The noise/info ratio is very low. 10:19:28 c.f. werty posts on c.l.f 10:20:49 Very low traffic is death. 10:21:17 not necessarily 10:21:36 :) 10:22:08 Azamat (azekeprofit) stated right: "I look once, nothing 10:22:08 happens, I look one more time, the same silence." 10:22:30 I would prefer very low traffic with excellent, level-headed, well-researched responses over a mishmash of sound and fury any day. 10:22:39 Then he says: "#forth at FreeNode is dead." 10:22:46 I think we're just disagreeing on how low "low" is. 10:22:54 Now, gnomon, ygrek and others, I congratulate you. 10:22:57 Psh! This channel is jumping! :) 10:23:07 You're speaking on dead channel. 10:23:08 I have not said that... 10:23:19 You said that in Russian. 10:23:24 I just translate you. 10:23:34 I only translate you. 10:24:04 No, i said: "while being here i couldn't find anything interesting here for me, if there was".. 10:25:05 That's totally fair enough. If the channel isn't useful for you, no problem. Well, a problem for you, but not the people in the channel. No need to argue about that! 10:25:19 Yep. 10:25:23 However, there is often very interesting discussion here. There are some very erudite and prolific Forth programmers here. 10:25:23 gnomon is right 10:25:39 Their opinions, insights and even their complaints are very educational. 10:25:57 The problem is this: the fewer members the less variations 10:25:57 in themes. 10:26:35 And about contributing and sharing code: is there anybody interested in bacForth programming?.. Anybody?.. 10:26:47 And the less chances you find any fresh idea at last. 10:26:47 azekeprofit, what is bacForth? 10:27:05 Here, now see what do i mean?.. 10:27:06 gnomon: That's back-tracking Forth dialect. 10:27:07 ASau, I don't totally agree with you on that point, but I'll grant it for the sake of argument. 10:27:11 Or even extension. 10:27:45 It was developed by Gassanenko (IIRC) at late 90's. 10:27:57 Or even at mid 90's 10:28:05 That sounds interesting. It reminds me of something, actually... 10:28:17 ...but in any case, azekeprofit, what are you using it for? 10:28:43 ygrek uses my bac4th libraries as well... 10:28:45 Gassanenko is English-writing, you may find more 10:28:45 information at his site. 10:29:04 Just few examples of bac4th: 10:29:15 genereated code (closures)... 10:29:39 http://www.forth.org.ru/~mlg/ 10:29:39 generated cycles (iterators)... 10:30:36 refactoring of cycles (it can be used as soe kind of lazy lists...) 10:32:20 Oho, nifty! 10:34:47 Oh, I *had* read about it. It was presented at EuroForth 94! 10:35:34 That's why I've said what I've said. 10:35:46 Where else can you find bacForth user? 10:35:59 Exactly!.. 10:36:20 But... 10:36:35 That's a good question in general, actually. Who do you know of that uses it? 10:37:03 How could gnomon find it if you, Azamat, didn't mention 10:37:03 bacForth at _FreeNode_? 10:38:24 One more fact to support my theses on RusNet channel. 10:38:38 Hey, I am not going to be an evangelist of new style of forth programming.. 10:38:39 I have to admit that my Russian isn't strong enough for me to be able to understand the discussion otherwise. 10:38:53 Let's wait Slava and ask him whether he's aware of 10:38:53 existance of this RusNet channel. 10:39:36 That's a good idea. If anyone here would be, it's him. 10:39:49 gnomon: You see the same problem from opposite side. 10:40:11 I just use what i think is more flexible and easy.. On russian forum and chat i could show and explain my code snippets on bacforth.. 10:40:29 well, what should be the new style of forth programming? 10:40:44 gnomon: English is rather hard to learn, so RuFIG members 10:40:44 prefer not to use it. 10:40:45 virl, that's a whole other kettle of fish ;) 10:40:47 And i have to repeat: i don't care about any IRC-servers or channels... 10:40:56 ASau, that's understandable. Thank you for taking the trouble! 10:41:33 azekeprofit, and that's fine too - but if you *do* happen to stop by here every once in a while, please do know that your presence and conversation will both be very welcome. 10:42:23 I did. And I know. But am i going to do here?.. 10:42:27 gnomon: Actually I'm repeating in parts the same arguments. 10:42:27 I have to. 10:42:28 * what 10:42:58 azekeprofit: The same thing as you did at RusNet channel! 10:43:01 Communicate! 10:43:05 Explainig basics of bacForth?.. 10:43:37 That would be really neat, if you were interested in doing so! I'd certainly like to learn more about it. 10:43:50