00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.31 00:09:21 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 00:57:39 a very mild and sunny 6 degrees here 00:58:42 * grub_booter is very happy to finally have an office with a view (ok, it's only the garden, but it's better than sky and tops of buildings) 01:05:18 a mild -26C here 01:05:33 yikes 01:06:35 i was brought up in the orkney islands (northeast of scotland) - almost as far north as moscow, but nowhere near as cold :-) 01:06:46 haha 01:07:11 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 01:07:49 Guten Tag, ecraven 01:07:50 . 01:08:30 It looks, I move my scripts from sh+awk+sed+all the stuff 01:08:30 to Gforth. 01:08:36 Though slowly. 01:08:59 guten morgen ASau :) 01:09:13 Wie geht's? 01:09:19 gut, grad eine besprechung 01:11:06 Was neues im Forth? 01:12:06 Ich will uebersetzen meine Hilfprogramme ins Forth. 01:12:41 Sie sind in sh+awk+sed+... 01:12:55 :) does that actually work? 01:13:04 are there interfaces to posix stuff in forth? 01:13:15 I want to rewrite my helpers in Forth. 01:13:45 Ich benutze Gforth. 01:13:57 How's it right? 01:14:04 I use Gforth now. 01:14:26 Sometimes it lacks all this POSIX stuff, but I use FFI. 01:14:26 ich benutze / verwende jetzt gforth 01:14:31 ah, cool 01:15:36 I need someone to talk in German, since it seems I need 01:15:36 resurrection of my forgotten skill. 01:16:14 :) wir kÃnnen gerne deutsch reden ;) 01:16:30 hm.. seems something's broken with my emacs/rcirc 01:17:15 I use ERC. 01:17:28 i prefer rcirc, not so big ("bloated") 01:18:15 I don't know if it supports non-English scripts etc. 01:18:41 Also it wasn't supported in FreeBSD, when I started 01:18:41 chatting in Emacs. 01:19:00 Probably, it wasn't supported at all, I'm not sure. 01:23:00 Gforth ist gut, es ist beste zuga:nglich Interpreter, 01:23:00 meiner Meinung nach. 01:23:51 Are there non-German-speaking folk online? 01:24:14 I don't object to you speaking in German 01:24:47 If there's noone, I won't provide simultanious translation into English. 01:33:04 sorry, i'm in a meeting atm.. be back later ;) 01:33:42 Alright. 01:51:26 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:58:05 Quartus_: http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/VonNeumann.html 01:58:09 Quartus_: found it! 01:58:27 Donald Gillies, one of von Neumann's students at Princeton, and later a faculty member at the University of Illinois, recalled in the mid-1970's that the graduates students were being "used" to hand assemble programs into binary for their early machine (probably the IAS machine). He took time out to build an assembler, but when von Neumann found out about he was very angry, saying (paraphrased), "It is a waste of a valuable scientific comput 02:48:05 --- join: arke_ (i=chris@x433.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 02:51:05 Guten Tag, arke. 03:15:46 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:21:08 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@x118.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 03:59:50 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 04:07:32 --- quit: arke_ ("This is my quit message. There are many quit messages like it, but this is mine.") 04:23:45 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-c6a4996c8d57b06a) joined #forth 04:41:04 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 04:41:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 05:36:54 fission, Von Neumann wasn't against assembly language, or assemblers -- he just thought (rightly, at the time) that student brains were the cheaper machine to use for the process. You didn't sit in front of those old machines and code them; you wrote software on paper and had clerical staff enter it into the machine for execution. 05:37:58 That was true for a long time even with the advent of high-level languages. 05:52:18 --- join: hajamieli (n=o@82.118.209.100) joined #forth 05:53:43 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 05:58:31 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:02:18 Good evening! 06:03:41 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:04:23 Good morning. 06:08:34 it's a good spirit, anyway, that develops a system to free other people from continuing to do mindless, hateful work. 06:08:56 we still need a great deal of it, from what I see. 06:09:11 Please save me. 06:09:54 easier coming if more people would learn to fucking program. Ugh. I mean, bless their hearts, the poor things. 06:23:27 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:30:47 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:33:34 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection) 06:34:07 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 06:37:34 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:45:52 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 06:49:57 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 06:56:33 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-7dd49cb6ce8523bb) joined #forth 07:09:49 --- join: tgunr (n=chatzill@70-41-248-75.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 07:27:23 --- quit: tgunr (Remote closed the connection) 07:34:58 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 07:37:16 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E0577E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:37:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 07:49:10 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@201.5.13.94) joined #forth 07:49:42 --- quit: edrx (Remote closed the connection) 08:13:52 hi 08:17:02 Privet! 08:24:25 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 08:32:00 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 08:35:05 Guten Abend! 08:41:28 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 08:49:05 Dobryj vecher! 09:10:23 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 09:20:04 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 09:20:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 09:22:46 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 09:31:56 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:46:20 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 09:46:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 09:46:37 hi tathi 09:46:47 hi Quartus_ 09:47:03 what's up? 09:47:28 not much 09:47:42 nor here. Taking a break. 09:47:54 from? 09:48:24 building props, today 09:48:47 ah 09:49:03 later, Forth book writing 09:49:19 that's what we like to hear. :) 09:49:25 :) 10:07:48 do you have a publisher? 10:08:11 no 10:08:20 --- part: absentia left #forth 10:09:53 im starting to HATE werty, why does he have to keep spamming clf? 10:11:33 heh 10:11:38 werty is interesting :) 10:11:48 incomprehensibility? ++;! 10:12:58 werty is just annoying 10:15:42 Hooray! 10:15:44 werty is a REAL forther 10:15:59 I've succeded building CVS Gforth! 10:16:02 But... 10:16:05 the "C"-ish forthers write applications 10:16:06 slava: swing or swt? :P 10:16:10 cvs up -D2006-08-01 10:16:17 the poser forthers write implementations 10:16:22 hahaha 10:16:26 the REAL forthers don't even do that, they just rant about REAL forth in an incomprehensible way 10:17:01 :D 10:17:35 has jeff fox ever released any code? 10:18:14 erm thats a good question lol 10:21:49 slava: Look at his site. 10:22:19 i don't see any code there, just ramblings about the evils of C 10:24:56 I remember there was one. 10:25:14 Sorry, I didn't look there for a long time. 10:29:40 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:32:38 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-58-64.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 10:47:43 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 10:49:06 It looks downgraded CVS Gforth does not pass its internal tests. 10:49:21 is gforth still maintained? i thought it was dead 10:49:26 It's strange, because I had this Gforth in Cygwin. 10:49:40 Of course it's maintained! 10:50:11 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:50:18 it doesn't seem to have a *lot* of activity, but the CVS version does have a bunch of new stuff. 10:50:18 "cvs up" regularly updates source. 10:50:34 it just looks dead because they're annoying and haven't made a release in three or four years. 10:50:43 ah 10:51:27 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:52:17 --- join: zpg (n=user@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 11:39:43 --- quit: zpg (Remote closed the connection) 11:41:24 Quartus: I didn't say Von Neumann was against assembly or assemblers -- I said that he thought they were a waste of precious CPU time 11:41:37 Quartus: which, afaict, is exactly what the quote said 12:05:24 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 12:07:23 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 12:23:56 --- join: uiuiuiu (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth 12:30:29 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 12:51:27 slava actually JF posted the sources to a small chess program he wrote 12:51:33 i have that somewhere 12:52:41 i think i downloaded that from his site 12:52:53 ooh ooh l like chess programms. 12:53:12 i think i could actually beat this one lol 12:53:32 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:53:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 12:53:33 i think it was originally coded for the F21 or something 12:53:40 what ever they called that chip 12:55:33 oh okay I440r, you're talking about Jeffs chess. Ya for the F21. 12:55:45 ya 12:56:04 slava was asking if he ever released any code. thats the only example i know of 12:56:11 I think it's called luddite chess. 12:56:17 Right. 12:56:24 please dont quote werty 12:56:24 What about AHA did that ever release? 12:56:30 im not sure 12:56:46 I never looked myself. Wasn't that interested. 12:56:53 heh 12:57:05 me either. i dont even like color forth 12:57:39 * Ray_work is now sad and will quit the group for ever and ever. :( 12:57:44 NOT! 12:58:42 lol 12:58:49 ok, back to "hardly working" 12:59:50 ya me too. 13:00:28 Actuall, I've been spending the entire day jumping thru govemental hoops and documents. 13:16:50 --- quit: uiuiuiu ("Lost terminal") 13:25:14 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54897FE0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:34:09 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:39:15 --- join: tgunr (n=chatzill@70-41-248-75.cust.wildblue.net) joined #forth 13:48:55 --- join: molokai (i=molokai@169.Red-81-40-192.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 14:05:55 --- quit: molokai () 14:08:19 --- join: jacereda (n=jacereda@81-202-227-62.user.ono.com) joined #forth 14:32:21 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 14:32:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 14:32:59 hey 14:33:16 hi 14:33:25 what's up? 14:33:54 not much - putting finishing touches on the new office - surround sound and lan 14:34:31 --- quit: ecraven ("gn") 14:35:20 you? 14:35:38 nothing too thrilling, taking a break 14:38:18 kinda happy with the office - minimalist thing - just desks and computers and 2 swivelly james bond villain type chairs... 14:38:42 no cupboards or shelves 14:39:16 I prefer bookshelves nearby 14:39:30 yeah - they're on the outside of the office 14:39:52 I like having them in view, they're restful. 14:39:57 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:40:39 tend to find they get stuff dumped on them - just get untidy quickly - at least this way, i can use em for dumping and not have to worry about it 14:40:41 :-) 14:40:59 well, anything can be done poorly 14:41:05 heh 14:41:14 it's a habit thing 14:42:08 but keeping one wall free for projection was part of the goal (the others have desks on them) 14:42:21 I'm talking about bookshelves filled with books. 14:42:55 yeah - and i'm talking about desks and a wall for video projection :-) 14:43:20 ok. 14:43:32 the library is just outside the office (as are the filing cabinets) 14:43:53 and there's a kinda half restful staging area there too 14:47:50 (there's also has a fridge/freezer there - cool drinks, ice cubes and beer within wobbling distance :-)) 14:52:28 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:52:29 --- quit: jacereda (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:01:54 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 15:17:07 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:44:26 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E075D0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:45:37 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 15:45:38 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 15:45:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 16:20:05 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@gentoo/contributor/ttuttle) joined #forth 16:20:10 Quartus: Hey. 16:25:05 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 16:29:49 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:40:53 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:29:02 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 17:29:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 17:34:14 Quartus: my arm assembler is working well 17:37:55 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:47:10 --- quit: Crest (Remote closed the connection) 17:58:12 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:06:54 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:15:11 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 18:19:58 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 18:30:29 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:31:00 --- join: nighty- (n=nighty-@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 18:31:31 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 18:31:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 18:32:09 slava, good deal re the asm 18:32:21 its really not as hard as I440r tells you it is :) 18:32:59 heh 18:33:10 eh? 18:33:18 he wants an intel syntax infix assembler or something 18:33:37 i just got a mental block, every time i try crate an arm assembler or an x86 assembler i get lockbrain 18:34:42 and you've come up with reasons why you refuse to use any existing ones. 18:35:32 valid reasons weather YOU think they are or not 18:35:38 its not YOUR fucking project 18:36:13 i have been given permission to use the assembler from win324th cant. its GPL 18:36:23 it would taint my license 18:36:31 I said nothing about the validity of your reasons. 18:36:32 i have been given permission to use the one that comes with gforth 18:36:51 if you look at that assembler its HORRIBLE (sorry :) 18:37:05 it uses ax, bx, cx, dx even when you mean eax etc 18:37:18 i also cannot get to grips with bass ackwards assembly 18:37:42 : eax ax ; problem solved 18:37:53 no not exactly heh 18:38:07 that wasnt the only problem i saw with it 18:38:15 but it was too long ago to remember 18:39:04 I'm sure those are great fucking reasons. Good luck with your fucking project. 18:39:44 not working on it 18:42:14 fyi: if you didnt keep making those SNIDE comments i wouldnt swear at you 18:45:14 my arm assembler looks like this: R0 IP R9 2 ?EQ S ADD 18:45:28 that's about as complex as the instructions get 18:45:36 i haven't done multiple load/store yet 18:48:07 do you need the ? on that ? 18:48:12 couldnt you just do EQ ? 18:48:22 also, why the <> ? 18:48:40 slava i wouldnt mind seeing that assembler 18:48:47 yeah i was going to get rid of the ? because now i see no other words have the same names as cond codes 18:49:36 does the assembler handle ANY immediate? 18:49:53 i mean... 18:49:58 8 bit immediates with an explicit rotation 18:50:25 mov r0, # 480 can be done with a shift 18:50:42 i know, but i don't have an algorithm for discovering that 18:50:44 does it figure out ALL possible immediates and construct the opcode correctly ? 18:51:01 if you just specify an immedaite it has to fit in 8 bits 18:51:09 but you can get a bigger one by explicitly giving a rotation amount 18:51:27 right. i have seen an assembler that calculates it for you 18:51:32 and i believe its a PD assembler 18:51:50 i have it somewhere 18:51:59 its not hard to calculate 18:52:08 its not trivial :) 18:52:28 its specially non trivial if the assembler can generate the required opcodes to load ANY immediate lol 18:52:31 you could do it with brute force 18:52:52 mov r0, #anything 18:53:21 the most efficient way might be with two or 3 movs. or it might work with one mov or it might be best with a pool 18:53:34 my compiler is using a pool 18:53:45 on ppc on the other hand you have 16 bit immediates so i use 1 or 2 instructions 18:53:48 i would like to see an algorithm for selecting the best way to mov any immediate 18:53:57 seems more trouble than its worth 18:54:16 i feel the same way about any sort of compiler optimizations other than for "interest value" 18:54:31 well i'm interested in writing high level code which runs fast 18:54:36 its trivial for the HUMAN to generate the most efficient loading mechanism :) 18:54:37 you're content with writing assembler directly :) 18:55:13 i want to write assembler routines where they are needed. high level ONLY in its place 18:55:35 doing everything in high level is stupid. but right now in isforth i basically have to 18:58:42 i think i have figured out a way to do that :) 18:58:49 ok, time to go home 19:00:46 I440r: do you want to see the assembler? 19:01:52 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:09:24 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 19:09:30 --- part: Quartus left #forth 19:39:36 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:39:53 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E075D0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 20:13:01 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 20:13:12 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-136-043.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:17:50 --- quit: arke_ (Connection timed out) 20:50:54 i440r more like 20:50:56 i440n 20:51:00 ice burn 20:56:22 --- join: edrx (n=Eduardo@200.217.105.150) joined #forth 23:00:14 --- part: edrx left #forth 23:53:27 --- join: uiuiuiu (n=ian@schihei.net) joined #forth 23:57:20 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E076EB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:57:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.01.31