00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.21 00:06:33 i thought windows in general had a problem with transparent png? (at least it did until recently, no?) 00:13:34 * grub_booter gets client/server scrub control sorted :-) - http://users.pandora.be/acp/jbatch/scrubbing.png 00:17:09 kinda funny - basically, the command sent over is 'position seek' (where position is a frame offset) and there's a status thread started which generates a callback per frame shown on the server - thinking about making the status thread also use an rpn type of logic like (s name i length i position [but only generating the name and length when they change]) 00:19:02 the scrubbing shows the frame as you scrub though (unlike most players [totem, wmp, real etc] which only change the frame when you release) 00:24:26 the IE6 (and lower) rendering engines do not support transparent PNGs without hacks. IE7 fixes this. 00:33:28 yeah, you have to put it some silly javascript for ie 5.5-6 that makes the PNGs work 00:34:12 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 00:50:16 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-0c64111c555adf58) joined #forth 01:56:21 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 02:00:21 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-7c79e045e6a1acfa) joined #forth 02:00:27 --- quit: ygrek (Client Quit) 02:15:10 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54894241.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:42:15 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 03:00:14 --- join: neceve (n=Clau@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:04:58 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-54438354.lns4-c8.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 03:06:54 morning 03:23:24 Good morning. I too am just waking, sleep schedual at sixes and sevens, I suppose. 03:23:52 :) Morning 03:25:28 I sware, Marc. I'm on a rotating sleep/wake cycle. Tough on me thru the work week. 03:27:30 What were you reading yesterday. 03:52:58 I just got a day back that I thought I lost. 04:11:36 --- quit: Crest ("Leaving") 05:03:09 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 05:03:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 05:50:41 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 06:12:23 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-57-117.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:20:39 --- quit: Raystm2 (Nick collision from services.) 06:21:03 --- nick: Raystm2- -> Raystm2 06:31:51 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 06:39:25 --- quit: Raystm2 ("I've embarrassed my self enough for one day.") 06:54:49 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-57-117.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:55:04 --- quit: Raystm2 (Remote closed the connection) 06:57:46 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth 06:59:46 --- quit: frunobulax (Client Quit) 07:02:34 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:02:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 07:02:55 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth 07:03:37 --- quit: frunobulax (Client Quit) 07:07:44 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth 07:08:01 --- quit: frunobulax (Client Quit) 07:19:04 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth 07:19:29 --- quit: frunobulax (Client Quit) 07:47:09 --- quit: zpg (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:08:04 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-57-117.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:17:09 --- join: jacereda (n=jacereda@81-202-227-62.user.ono.com) joined #forth 08:18:06 ." Hello, World!" 08:18:13 hi 08:18:46 * Raystm2 doing machine maintenance and my chat is autoload so i'm in and out. trying to minimize disturbance. 08:19:48 Did notice that http://ray-rxcore.org is down. crc ping please . :) 08:27:21 --- join: molokai (i=molokai@34.Red-81-40-190.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 08:33:04 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 08:49:25 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p5489468D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:20:54 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 09:20:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 10:20:40 --- quit: molokai () 10:38:57 --- join: mark4__ (n=mark4@ip70-162-111-107.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 10:39:24 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:42:29 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 10:56:36 --- join: zpg (n=user@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 10:56:46 hi 10:57:45 --- quit: mark4_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:57:58 Hi checking new fire wall settings, seems okay. 10:58:14 hey Raystm2 10:58:47 Update the computer day here. 10:59:03 :) 10:59:25 Syncing my machine at work with the one at home and the palm. 11:03:14 palm come in handy then? 11:04:59 Ya, so far. Good for linking permanent information to the machines for storage. Much prefer a steno pad for active information as it changes. 11:05:41 interesting. 11:05:48 my palm is relegated largely to a functional toy. 11:09:58 It would be convenient for me if while taking a customers order I enter his relevent information in my calendar, including a place to note what they bought in the past, what I think I should try to sell them, and what prices i've given them in the past so as not to embarass myself. 11:10:20 wouldn't a laptop be just as handy? 11:10:26 or are you a whizz with graffiti these days? 11:11:00 To big. I'm good with graffiti and I have the keyboard for the hairy quick stuff. 11:11:33 I've got like a BatBelt of stuff I carry nearly everywhere I go. 11:11:55 * zpg chuckles 11:13:21 Pens, paper, pda, keyboard, multi-tool, measuring tape, wallet with cash, wallet with change, keys, wonder drugs, folendars. I would like to add a camera, camcorder, tape recorder or mp3 or ipod, phone. I still don't have a phone. 11:13:48 did i just type "inventory"? 11:13:48 oh with the multi-tool came with a seperate razor knife. 11:14:05 "Ray St. Marie -- The Interactive Adventure" :) 11:14:16 Ya, and a guitar would be nice. 11:14:26 and a blackberry. 11:14:42 and a seguay to carry it all. :) 11:15:20 hey 11:15:22 heh. we'll haev to redraft. 11:15:25 howdy Mr Q. 11:15:38 hi Quartus. 11:15:51 what's up? 11:16:25 MacDiddly as usual. 11:16:31 reading etc. etc. 11:16:32 I've built a shopping list for the IA, AI? no IA the InteractiveAdventurerere. 11:16:37 remedy that! 11:16:50 remedy my gaelic relative? 11:17:01 Indeed 11:17:23 You know do a MacDiddly Squat. 11:18:22 reading's a fine way to occupy a sunday evening. 11:18:31 thought i'd take a breather thuogh. 11:19:50 Just synced all the computers in my general daily influence. 11:20:35 actually, i think this evening involves public houses and further reading. you know, variety and all that. 11:38:41 --- quit: zpg ("back to reading") 11:48:06 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 12:01:10 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 12:04:16 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-57-117.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 12:39:44 --- join: molokai (i=molokai@245.Red-81-40-192.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 12:40:54 --- quit: molokai (Client Quit) 12:41:35 --- join: molokai (i=molokai@245.Red-81-40-192.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 13:04:20 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0660.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 13:33:47 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:48:26 --- quit: molokai () 14:07:11 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 17:27:03 --- join: Jenn5 (n=Jenn5@74-132-206-111.dhcp.insightbb.com) joined #forth 17:30:17 hi Jenn5 17:30:55 you new here? what brings you here? 17:36:19 Hey JasonWoof. I tried that the other day. No respondo. 17:50:58 --- quit: Jenn5 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:51:00 ok, that meteor puzzle thread is kind of fun. 17:51:16 well, good for an afternoon's amusement mucking around with the code anyway :) 17:51:20 some actual code for a change :) 17:51:26 Of course it's all pre-werty luddite fumblings. 17:51:50 hehe. 17:52:05 yeah, I modified the Osgood version to use a 32-bit sliding window instead of doubles everywhere 17:52:13 runs about 3 times faster for me 17:52:19 I imagine it would. 17:58:52 * JasonWoof considers for a brief moment naming fronds OSBad 17:59:03 BadOS. 18:00:32 porthos 18:01:31 I want to name one OStrich 18:01:37 LOL 18:01:49 because to use it, you'd have to be willing to stick your head in the sand and ignore all the better OSes that are out there :) 18:02:00 OStentatious 18:02:00 lol 18:02:17 yeah, or that 18:02:22 OSteopetrosis 18:02:30 I did a regexp dict search for OS one day :) 18:02:33 cf, I hereby dub the OSTrich 18:02:48 OShaughnessy 18:03:12 thee 18:04:03 lOSe 18:06:55 --- quit: jacereda (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:08:11 hehe 18:08:25 sometimes on the weekends I like to see what domain names I can find that are available 18:08:34 sometimes I'm amused at the ones that are taken 18:08:44 other times, enraged and confused 18:08:50 heh 18:09:12 I might eventually find one that would be good for giving out e-mail addresses or subdomains 18:09:15 like eatsfood.com 18:09:23 jason.eatsfood.com 18:09:32 HAHAHAHA! oh wait. :) 18:09:41 jason@eatsfood.com 18:09:49 s'not grabbing me too hard 18:10:15 atemyfoot.com 18:13:52 breathes.org is available :) 18:14:56 airbreathers.com not available.. 18:24:38 --- quit: JasonWoof ("switching harddrives") 18:36:27 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:36:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 18:42:30 hmmm... old drive doesn't work either. 18:42:36 maybe my new one isn't broken 18:43:07 wish I had more ide cables 18:44:01 --- quit: JasonWoof ("well, I guess I should shut irc off while I reboot 8 times") 18:57:27 --- quit: mark4__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:59:42 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:33:40 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-54438354.lns4-c8.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 19:47:42 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-30-169.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:47:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 19:48:20 this is acceptable 19:48:31 got all my hard drives working 19:48:40 new drive only works on ide1 19:48:55 which I notice has a different cord 19:49:02 same plug on the end, but twice as many wires 19:49:22 I read something about that when I was reading about he various versions of IDE/ata 19:49:40 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-135-112.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:49:48 I had to displace my CD drive, but that's OK 19:49:51 hardly use it anyway 19:50:09 I can use the one downstairs on the occation when I need it 19:50:33 it's very nice being able to have 4 hard drives plugged in at once 19:50:45 because two are required for booting with my current setup 19:51:08 and I'd like to get the contents of my other drives transfered onto my new huge one 19:51:28 4 drives is just enough :) 20:08:06 --- part: zpg left #forth 20:11:16 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-144-093.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:15:17 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 20:18:46 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:31:33 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:31:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 20:49:52 programming puzzle: given an array as input, construct a new array with all duplicates removed, in O(n) time 21:01:53 * JasonWoof doesn't grok O(n) 21:02:38 ok, the number of iterations over the input array should be bounded by a constant multiple of the number of elements 21:08:50 i only learned about this algorithm today 21:12:39 --- join: lynxie` (n=lynx@cpe-74-71-237-155.twcny.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:18:48 oh, so linearly 21:18:52 not exponentially 21:19:43 there's a lot between linear and exponential 21:19:51 n log n, n^2, n^3, etc 21:20:06 quicksort is O(n log n) expected 21:21:09 wait... so you want to remove dups faster than quicksort? 21:21:17 yes, its possible 21:22:59 must be clever 21:23:14 it assumes you have a hashtable with O(1) lookup 21:23:25 eh? 21:23:36 its not that clever 21:23:42 its just doing it without a hashtable would entail implementing one first 21:23:47 what's the hashtable bit mean? 21:23:54 do you know what a hashtable is? 21:24:00 yeah 21:24:08 pass key, get value 21:24:14 hopefully does it quick 21:24:17 with a good hash function, a hashtable has O(1) lookup 21:24:28 if your hash function maps everything to one value, which is the worst cas,e its O(n) 21:25:31 so you build a hash table, overwriting duplicates 21:25:47 yes, and if you come across an element not already in the hashtable, add it to an accumulator array 21:26:02 at the end, discard the hashtable, and your accumulator array has all duplicates removed 21:26:05 and in the same order as the original array 21:26:38 nifty 21:29:24 any MacForth users here? 21:29:29 carbon macforth? 21:29:34 yes. 21:29:35 * JasonWoof wonders if the gnu "sort" program uses this method 21:29:41 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 21:29:48 i wanted to download an evaluation version once, i filled out their form, they never got back to me 21:29:53 i don't see why they don't just have a direct download link 21:29:58 hmmm... well in that case it sorts it too obviously 21:30:22 I was wondering if ward has tentative plans on reworking it for Intel. 21:30:30 (he doesn't do well with answering emails.) 21:30:44 the powermops guy said he won't be reworking his forth for intel 21:31:00 yes, that I knew; that has long been his stance, unfortunately. 21:31:10 gforth runs on intel macs, iirc 21:31:33 ok, that is a start. 21:31:41 so does factor 21:32:09 Mr. Hore's bias towards Intel is frustrating. 21:32:22 he seems more likely to rework the API than the code generator 21:32:39 (possibly gear the whole thing towards Yellow Dog Linux, since he is often mentioned that he plays with that.) 21:32:40 i don't see why retargeting intel is so hard. 21:33:16 well, it's not easy, but for an old hand like him, it should be doable. 21:33:42 he just hates the architecture. 21:33:48 yeah 21:33:51 so much that he refuses to even look at it. 21:34:14 i've been able to support three architectures in my compiler, adding a fourth soon 21:34:34 not that Mops wouldn't be welcome if based on say Gnome or even Xlib, but it's kind of out of sorts in a land where everything compiles up from C 21:35:00 I'm in the same boat 21:35:08 yeah, especially since Mops is one of the few Forths (Mac or otherwise) that is built entirely using a metacompiler 21:35:19 It would take quite some convincing (and probably a good deal of money) to get me to learn x86 asm and use it 21:35:26 i don't like the intel architecture either, but i support it because its what most people have 21:35:34 fwiw yellow dog wasn't good to me 21:35:44 its not hard to learn x86 asm 21:35:46 it worked, for a while, but never well, and the package manager was innadiquate 21:35:51 i found ppc asm somewhat harder 21:36:03 well, I hate it too, but I also know that the Mac from the standpoint of software is worth some of the pragmatism necessary with its hardware 21:36:05 but its easier to generate code for because it has more registers 21:36:18 slava: plus it is simply more elegant 21:36:52 the PPC MacForth assembler is really quite compact (which is what Mops also uses) 21:37:11 I haven't seen anything quite like that for Intel or the old Motorola stuff 21:37:18 my ppc assembler is 228 lines, x86+amd64 assembler is 417 lines 21:37:34 not really a fair comparison though, the ppc assembler is 32 bit only 21:37:46 it would be a big larger if i also supported ppc64 21:38:06 sure, but at least the PPC was originally designed with 64-bit in mind 21:38:18 so I suspect it isn't as kludgey, although I don't know that first-hand 21:38:29 x86-64 isn't really any more kludgy than x86 21:38:38 you get more registers, which is nice 21:38:59 okay. 21:39:23 then there really is no good reason, then. :P 21:39:57 in the end even if x86 is really ugly, it doesn't matter because only your low level code generator is affected 21:40:30 the way I look at it, you can't affect 99% of the code on your system anyway 21:41:33 so, why not just get cracking on it if he plans on continuing maintenance of the system. 21:42:12 i looked at the mops compiler source, it generates tight code but its really closely tied to ppc. 21:42:23 it wasn't designed with multiple targets in mind 21:42:23 (maybe someone just needs to buy him the hardware, so he feels somewhat compelled to work on it.) 21:42:26 i suspect this is the real reason 21:42:42 yes, it is very well married to the system. 21:43:02 but, if he did only work on the code generator, getting the basic nucleus running, for example 21:43:07 that's not a good thing, though. you don't really gain much from coupling the front-end with the back-end 21:43:21 there are a number of others who are more than competent enough to do the work on the classes 21:43:31 i suspect the classes won't need many changes 21:43:51 well, you'd be surprised. :-) 21:44:19 it's actually kind of a mess 21:44:20 :-) 21:44:26 really? 21:44:49 well, all I know is that the fixes are more hacks than anything else 21:45:00 it's basically twenty years of hacks 21:45:11 and while it is a good and functional system 21:45:45 it isn't too fun to maintain that kind of spaghetti 21:46:09 I suspect it is partly why development has moved so slowly 21:46:13 yeah 21:46:29 i noticed there is still a lot of 68k code, which doesn't appear to be used 21:46:49 well, the 68k code is still used to build the basic PowerMops nucleus 21:46:58 that sounds kludgy 21:47:05 in its day, it was a great idea 21:47:12 but now, there is really no excuse for it 21:47:34 you really should be able to develop a PowerMops nucleus without falling back on the 68k-based metacompiler 21:47:51 granted, the nucleus is so bare that you shouldn't need to make changes so often to it 21:48:10 (it is probably more bare than the MacForth nucleus, for example) 21:48:25 is macforth metacompiled? 21:48:34 I don't know. 21:48:44 it wouldn't surprise me. 21:49:52 other than for recompiling the nucleus, the 68k code isn't needed these days. 21:50:23 i wouldn't be surprised if neither macforth nor mops made it to intel 21:50:31 at this point, since the metacompiler itself isn't even native, why not simply create a new one? 21:50:35 I wouldn't either. 21:50:38 which would be a shame. 21:50:44 yup 21:50:59 I understand Mops finally moved to a revision control system. 21:51:13 that might be a good thing, since it would back Mike out of the role as a central coordinator 21:51:25 and allow others to submit new changes and assemble releases. 21:51:37 i can't imagine not using a revision control system 21:51:43 so maybe it might go to Intel afterall. 21:52:12 I can't either, but that's the way he did it for twenty years. 21:52:53 ward, from what I can tell, is too much of a perfectionist 21:53:02 he'll spend another four years just beta testing 21:53:10 and probably go broke before a release ever comes out 21:53:36 (which is what it seems like he did for Carbon MacForth; note that he dropped his involvement with his serial cards entirely.) 21:54:21 *sigh* Forth is a land of extremism. :-) 21:57:29 what are you looking for from a forth? 21:57:38 does retroforth run on intel mac? 21:57:59 what do you mean? as in features? or? 21:58:04 I have never used retroforth. 21:58:10 intended uses 21:59:27 well, I've wanted to do a music performance/synthesis system for awhile, now. 22:00:15 (something along the lines of the old HMSL, maybe.) 22:01:19 so ideally, it would need to be fairly fast, have access to either the low-level hardware or low-latency toolbox calls. 22:01:37 I'm not all that fussy, or are my needs really exotic as far as the software is concerned. 22:01:58 you can't access hardware directly on os x. 22:02:10 otherwise, a handful of forth systems could fit your requirements 22:02:13 no, but you do have the low-latency toolbox calls for MIDI and audio needs. 22:02:28 which, for what I want, is sufficient 22:02:42 so a forth with ffi? 22:02:51 ffi? 22:03:00 foreign function interface 22:03:05 yes. 22:03:36 carbon macforth seems the best I've seen so far. 22:03:47 but, again, where is he going with that? 22:04:11 I wouldn't be surprised if he was forced to abandon the product at some point in the future. 22:04:34 perhaps forth inc will port their product to intel mac. 22:05:06 that could take awhile, given that they abandoned power macforth as it was to ward so they could recommit themselves to Windows. 22:05:21 unlikely they'd dabble again with the mac, at least to my thinking. 22:05:37 looking at HMSL 22:06:03 Mops is a very close cousin; they both are heavily-influenced by NEON 22:06:12 so, perhaps it would be easier to port HMSL to Mops 22:06:29 :P 22:06:38 *shrug* 22:07:20 at some point in the future i'm going to add real time garbage collection to factor to make it more suitable for games and music applications 22:07:38 nifty 22:08:06 is factor yours? 22:08:13 right now the average pause time is very low (<1 ms) but occasionally you must do a full gc (~100ms) 22:08:14 yes 22:08:20 its not really forth, its stack based but higher level 22:08:26 still fast though 22:08:27 interesting. 22:08:43 i wouldn't use it for music right now. 22:08:49 its perfectly fine for web applications and such 22:09:00 nice. 22:09:06 I'll have to look at it anyway. 22:09:12 factorcode.org 22:09:58 what I've been wondering for the longest time is if Forth could pick up where the old Music N languages left off 22:10:21 i don't know anything about audio programming, really 22:10:32 specifying a sound with Forth, and not some made-up language 22:10:35 i've done a fair bit with 2d and 3d graphics 22:10:42 but never implemented a single audio algorithm 22:11:09 I've done some experimenting, but not with Forth. :P 22:11:19 is neon dead? 22:11:24 neon? very. 22:11:31 circa 1985. 22:11:42 ah 22:11:46 but it is really quite innovative. 22:12:15 both Mops and Win32Forth employ a OOP layer like NEON does 22:12:34 yup 22:13:19 Mops makes a lot of great enhancements, though. 22:13:35 my object system is somewhat simpler. 22:13:41 no special syntax, no inheritance. 22:13:51 how does that work? 22:14:20 well, you have classes. every value is an instance of some class. 22:14:26 you can define 'generic words'. 22:14:47 a generic word looks at the class of the object at the top of the stack, and calls the method associated to that class. 22:15:06 new classes can be defined, but things like integers are also instances of an integer class 22:15:41 neat! 22:16:15 so really a generic word behaves like a big old ordinary word definition, with a big set of conditional tests on the object's class. 22:16:23 except methods can be defined in different source files 22:17:10 so you can expand on an object's methods at any time? 22:17:23 individual objects don't have methods; classes have methods 22:17:34 loading a new source file can define methods on existing generic words, yes. 22:18:07 okay, I'll need to look your site over. :-) 22:20:15 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 22:20:33 maybe bigforth can be ported to intel mac 22:20:40 it already runs on unix and windows 22:20:48 possibly. 22:21:05 push comes to shove I could even coerce pForth just to support the basic calls I need 22:21:20 and write a few forth words to abstract away the ugliness. 22:21:27 or use objective C :) 22:22:14 but I wanted to emploit Forth's interactity 22:22:21 i was mostly joking. 22:22:22 and a word definition nicely maps signal flow 22:22:25 i don't like objective C much 22:23:07 with the input being the value on the stack, a natural left to right "flow" of the operations on that input, leaving the output value to be used as a control-rate or audio-rate signal 22:23:38 I don't mind it for delayed-playback work, but for a real-time synthesizer that grows with me, I'd rather not. 22:24:20 I was actually considering porting Music 4C to Objective-C 22:24:39 that would rid it of the ugly mass of lex/yacc preprocessor garbage 22:24:46 allow dynamic allocation of instrument definitions 22:25:02 and also allow instrument recursion 22:25:13 just by exploiting the basic enhancements of that language 22:25:31 over "regular" C 22:25:36 have you looked at any mac os x lisp implementations? 22:25:43 openmcl in particular has a very good cocoa/carbon binding 22:26:39 no, I haven't. 22:26:58 sbcl generates extremely fast code but it doesn't have a complete cocoa interface 22:27:04 but openmcl is not slow either 22:27:14 oh, wait, openmcl only runs on powerpc and x86-64. 22:27:15 damn 22:27:21 well, sbcl works on ppc and intel macs. 22:27:27 i wonder how far along the cocoa work is. 22:27:34 are those commercial products? 22:27:42 you can certainly call any toolbox function, by writing ffi stubs yourself. 22:27:50 which is not very painful unless you need hundreds of toolbox calls. 22:27:52 no, both are open source. 22:27:59 neat. 22:28:06 sbcl.sourceforge.net 22:28:19 no, I wouldn't need more than the basic CoreAudio and CoreMIDI libraries on the Mac 22:29:08 do you know lisp? 22:29:44 nope. which is probably why I was reluctant to look at it. 22:30:32 I almost bought a lisp machine awhile back, but never seriously considered it otherwise. 22:30:41 well, the lisp machines are quite obsolete. 22:30:53 yes. it was supposed to be a toy. :-) 22:30:53 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.130) joined #forth 22:30:56 common lisp is a pretty modern language, very high level and fast. 22:31:05 hello 22:31:09 hi snowr 22:31:24 my grandad's funeral was at 2 PM yesterday 22:31:41 slava: excuse the stupid question, but how quickly? 22:31:52 how quickly? 22:32:06 does lisp employ native code generation, for example? 22:32:18 many implementations do. 22:32:26 snowr: sorry to hear that. 22:32:34 slava: how about the two you mentioned. 22:32:40 they both do. 22:32:45 neat. 22:32:45 sbcl's compiler in particular is amazing. 22:33:05 I guess I figured lisp was always beyond my league. 22:33:19 I don't regard myself as stupid, but I do have a poor attention span and am quite impatient. 22:33:28 not ideal lisp material, I'm guessing. :-) 22:33:45 I used my new camcorder at the lunch 22:34:04 snowr: did your grandad program Forth? :-) 22:34:20 lynxie`: well, lisp is quite a productive language to program in. 22:34:42 no, but I have an uncle, jerry merryman, who's name is on the patents for the TI calculator, and the ink jet printer nozzle and several other things. He was there. 22:34:52 slava: what goes as introductory material with lisp? 22:35:04 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 22:35:13 I didn't recall anything analogous to Starting Forth, for example, that was still in print 22:35:18 but I didn't look terribly hard, I will admit. 22:35:23 this is the lisp book? 22:35:28 there are many lisp books 22:35:35 this is a good introductory text 22:36:06 put a bookmark 22:36:47 wow, neat. 22:37:08 I've got a C++ book sitting nearby I got about half way through it and havent' finished it yet 22:37:14 lisp, like forth, is extensible and interactive. 22:37:23 however it emphasizes manipulation of objects rather than low-level machine operations 22:37:43 interesting. 22:38:24 snowr: I have a big problem finishing any books. :-) 22:38:36 things like funerals got in the way this month 22:38:39 snowr: and the ones I do, I skip around the whole book until i read everything 22:38:58 my uncle, my ex wife, and grandpa 22:40:19 slava: why do you think lisp would be better for what I am doing than Forth? 22:40:26 (another stupid question, I know.) 22:40:29 i don't think it would necessarily be better. 22:40:39 i was just giving you another option, since you lamented the lack of suitable intel mac forths. 22:41:04 gotcha. thank you, though. 22:41:24 i do recall more than a few decent synthesis systems written in lisp 22:41:32 as in music? 22:41:36 yes. 22:42:06 (never used any of them, but seen and heard them in action.) 22:42:26 also there's smalltalk. 22:42:33 squeak smalltalk has quite decent multimedia support. 22:42:34 squeak 22:43:18 I played with the UI, never really learned the language 22:43:20 last I checked, it abstracted you quite a ways from the hardware 22:43:49 not sure I could really get down and dirty with professional level hardware 22:43:50 how so? 22:43:52 throw :the_ball :joe 22:43:55 without going to a lot of trouble 22:44:12 but this is a naive impression 22:44:16 so I don't know 22:45:11 ASIO drivers, for example. 22:45:16 http://impromptu.moso.com.au/ 22:45:19 how would you access them from Squeak? 22:45:28 using the ffi. 22:46:49 interesting. 22:46:55 (to both counts.) 22:47:07