00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.15
00:04:33 <grub_booter> well, i've implemented a basic playout server in python - to my mind anyway, it confirms that the advantage of being able to introduce new fx and functionality (via the definition of new words) over the comms outweighs any disadvantages (and i feel the security issues are negligible since this all about controlled environments and specialised client apps)
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08:42:02 <snowrichard> hi
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10:30:31 <Quartus_> hey
10:35:25 <tathi> hey
10:35:39 <Quartus_> how goes it?
10:36:07 <tathi> I wish the weather would stop being gray and miserable, but other than that...
10:36:10 <tathi> how's by you?
10:36:38 <Quartus_> snowing here for pretty much the first time this winter.
10:37:03 <Quartus_> otherwise survivng. :)
10:37:15 <tathi> ah
10:37:39 <Quartus_> figured out the cross-compilation dealie?
10:38:59 * grub_booter is gonna be a papa again by this time tomorrow..
10:39:06 * grub_booter 's getting nervous
10:39:14 <tathi> grub_booter: congratulations :)
10:39:20 <grub_booter> cheers :-)
10:40:19 <tathi> Quartus_: eh.  cleared up one point and got confused on another. :)
10:40:19 <Quartus_> Indeed :)
10:40:43 <Quartus_> heh
10:41:26 <tathi> But whatever.  My way works, and should be easy enough to adjust to comply with the standard if and when I figure that out.
10:41:40 <Quartus_> cool
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11:46:12 <tathi> Quartus_: Elizabeth wrote back and cleared everything up, I think.
11:46:29 <Quartus> Good deal.
11:48:29 <tathi> Yeah.  Nice to know that c.l.f. is good for something besides irrational ranting. :)
11:48:52 <Quartus> There are some sharp people there.  I've taken to marking the idiots a particular colour in my newsreader, I just don't bother with 'em.
11:49:00 <Quartus> Maroon.
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12:05:25 <TreyB> heh
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20:45:02 <unfy> i440r/mark around ?
20:45:12 <unfy> there he is
20:45:14 <unfy> bwahaha
20:47:33 <I440r__> ya
20:47:34 <I440r__> hi
20:47:37 <slava> hi I440r__ 
20:47:38 <I440r__> ltns :)
20:47:40 <slava> i got an arm board
20:47:41 <I440r__> hi slava
20:47:44 <I440r__> cool!
20:47:53 <I440r__> unfy :)
20:47:53 <slava> i've joined you and werty
20:48:07 <I440r__> cool - were 31337 ya know
20:48:15 <I440r__> }:)  
20:48:56 <I440r__> what arm is it ?
20:49:09 <slava> a 400 mhz xscale
20:49:19 <I440r__> drool!
20:49:22 <Quartus> LUDDITE!  oh wait
20:49:49 <unfy> aha
20:50:00 <I440r__> :)
20:50:12 <I440r__> howsit going unf?
20:50:13 <unfy> om: looked at the fortress thing yet ?
20:50:17 <unfy> om: busy as ever
20:50:25 <slava> om?
20:50:29 <unfy> just saw something and was curious if you've looked at it
20:50:29 <I440r__> my old irc nick
20:50:34 <I440r__> fortress ?
20:50:37 <unfy> slava: 'onlyme', ancient nick of i440r's :)
20:50:38 <I440r__> never heared of it
20:50:42 <slava> sun's new language
20:50:47 <unfy> om: yeah, uhm, supposed to be a forth replacement designed to be smp friendly
20:50:52 <I440r__> problem is i wasnt the only OM lol
20:50:53 <slava> forth replacement? no
20:50:57 <I440r__> cool
20:51:04 <slava> it has nothing to do with forth
20:51:19 <unfy> hmm
20:51:23 <unfy> heh
20:51:25 <unfy> good point
20:51:28 * unfy goof :)
20:51:28 <I440r__> where u at these days unf.. still at the same place ?
20:51:47 <I440r__> im still moving arround alot. im in tempe az right now
20:51:49 <unfy> om: still in omaha, still working for american amusements.  debating a few other job offers tho :)
20:51:53 <I440r__> been here for about 4 months
20:52:05 <unfy> om: yeah, noted the phoenix thing in your hostname :)
20:52:14 <I440r__> this place is looking for coders :)
20:52:28 <slava> what do you do at work I440r__ ?
20:52:31 <I440r__> they do image sensor stuff
20:52:43 <unfy> it'll be several weeks before i start seriously entertaining any ideas tho 
20:52:45 <I440r__> were currently developing code for the third largest image sensor producer in the world
20:52:59 <unfy> s/ideas/offers/
20:53:18 <I440r__> unfy wheres hex ?
20:53:22 <unfy> stillh ere
20:53:23 <unfy> er, here
20:53:31 <I440r__> still with bexy ?
20:53:39 <unfy> aye... and still not married :)
20:53:42 <I440r__> lol
20:53:49 <I440r__> hexy and bexy
20:53:59 <I440r__> he is married
20:54:06 <I440r__> :P
20:54:15 <I440r__> tell them i sed hi
20:54:16 <unfy> not on paper, but yea pretty much heh
20:54:19 <unfy> will do
20:54:29 <unfy> what about you, still chasing foreign women ?
20:54:35 <I440r__> i was thinking about you yesterday lol
20:55:03 <unfy> i saw a bump mapper thing in a commercial or show the other day that reminded me of fmu, heh
20:55:08 <I440r__> i just ordered a t shirt from thinkgeek that says "now accepting applications for a japanese girlfriend" in japanese
20:55:08 <I440r__> lol
20:55:16 <I440r__> lol
20:55:27 <I440r__> that was a totally ripped off bump mapper :P
20:55:34 <unfy> moa's aye
20:55:34 <I440r__> but i did give credit :P
20:55:37 <I440r__> ya
20:56:05 <I440r__> i was working for an access control/alarm monitoring company for a while in san antonio
20:56:08 <I440r__> did i tell u about them?
20:56:16 <unfy> don't think so
20:56:22 <unfy> prolly been 2 years since we last spoke :)
20:56:42 <I440r__> they do the access control for the whitehouse, the smithsonian institute, every single us marine base in the country, the HOOVER building!
20:56:47 <I440r__> and they suck
20:56:51 <unfy> lol
20:56:56 * I440r__ shudders
20:57:19 <unfy> positioning is better than product when it comes to politics and beauracracy :)
20:57:24 <I440r__> back to contracting now but these ppl want to find people who will go full time
20:57:56 <I440r__> they have a large customer base who would LOVE to dump them if they could afford to instll a totally new system
20:58:09 <I440r__> even John Deere uses MDI, world wide
20:58:15 <I440r__> cant get rid
20:58:20 <unfy> imaging system not particularly my cup of tea tho :)
20:58:28 <unfy> nothing like being pwned ?
20:58:45 <I440r__> this is working with image sensors
20:58:56 <I440r__> something like that :)
20:59:13 <unfy> hm, uc based ?
20:59:18 <unfy> er, uC even
20:59:19 <I440r__> unfy ever used ads 1.2 ?
20:59:22 <I440r__> arm
20:59:27 <unfy> ads, no
20:59:29 <I440r__> system on a chip
20:59:40 <unfy> done some pda work with sdl tho heh
20:59:59 <unfy> there was a chance we'd  move to an arm based system as well, but it's too foreign for our boss to be comfy with
21:00:07 <I440r__> the sensor is configured by the arm and gives it statistics about various aspects of the scene
21:00:17 <I440r__> so the arm can adjust the config
21:00:38 <I440r__> like white balance tec
21:00:43 <I440r__> etc even
21:01:08 <I440r__> anyway, im trying to get about 4000 variables defined in an asm file to be visible to a c file
21:01:10 <I440r__> grrrrrrrr
21:01:17 <I440r__> they are all global and NONE of them work
21:01:18 <I440r__> damnit
21:01:37 <slava> ouch
21:01:41 <unfy> hehehe
21:01:47 <slava> looks like somebody should learn about OOP :)
21:01:50 <unfy> sounds like some of the nasties we do at work, hate that kind of thing
21:01:52 <I440r__> no
21:02:12 <I440r__> this is a camera system on a chip that goes inside a cell phone for instance
21:02:15 <unfy> what assembler ?
21:02:24 <I440r__> every single variable/register in the system has to be configurable by the host
21:02:37 <I440r__> which means all 4000 of them need to be at VERY specific addresses
21:02:53 <unfy> om: any chance of just externing the address of the first variable and using offsets to set the rest ?
21:02:57 <I440r__> we cant let the c compiler place AE_foo_blah ANYWHERE, we have to place it ourselves
21:03:09 <I440r__> no because they arent all in contig memory
21:03:12 <I440r__> its an abomination
21:03:16 <unfy> hehehehehhehehe
21:03:17 <I440r__> not of my doing
21:03:29 <unfy> now that's narly :)
21:03:33 <I440r__> it gets worse
21:03:56 <I440r__> immagine about 80 or 90 blocks of variables and whyen you add a variable to a block
21:04:03 <I440r__> it COULD overlap the next one
21:04:09 <unfy> org's ?
21:04:14 <I440r__> you have NO way to know if it does except you check it by hand
21:04:27 <I440r__> no - this is all currently done wth #defines in c
21:04:40 <unfy> ... but the vars are in asm ?
21:04:43 <unfy> confused me :)
21:04:54 <I440r__> im trying to create assembler macros so that when you add a new variable to the block you get an abort if that creates an overlap
21:06:02 <unfy> add vars, end_of_block_x to each block... if end_of_block_a >= start_of_block_b , fault ? 
21:06:47 <unfy> anyhoo, does sound uber nasty... and like the kind of bs we put up with at work.
21:07:01 <unfy> i've done pretty good at getting as much out of the assembler as i can so that dont have to swim in that kind of bs....
21:07:20 <I440r__> still using 8051's mostly ?
21:07:24 <I440r__> love that processor :)
21:07:24 <unfy> although, our c compiler isnt the greatest so it's a mixed bag sometimes
21:07:39 <I440r__> i would do 100% of your work in asm
21:07:39 <unfy> yeah, still using 8051's and geode/mediagx based stuff
21:07:53 <unfy> om: no, no you wouldnt.  you'd start and be fired immediately :)
21:07:56 <I440r__> much easier to manage than C. 
21:08:10 <I440r__> keil's c compiler is good for an embedded c compiler but its still C :P
21:08:33 <I440r__> easier to ask forgiveness....
21:08:44 <unfy> heh
21:08:46 <I440r__> pretend your working in C.  finish the job 3 months ahead using asm
21:08:50 <I440r__> and say. by the way i lied
21:08:55 <I440r__> lol
21:09:02 <unfy> i'm a c monkey, so you'll have a hard time convincing me that asm is easier to organize :)
21:09:10 <I440r__> never actually had the guts to do that tho lol
21:09:14 <unfy> hehehehe
21:09:25 <unfy> annnnnndd .. this has to be maintainable by clueless twits the boss hires :)
21:09:26 <I440r__> do u use version control ?
21:09:37 <I440r__> alll the more reason to use asm
21:09:42 <I440r__> thats called JOB SECURITY!!!
21:09:44 <unfy> we used cvs for a while, but when one of the main ppl who dabble in the source wont use it... its a bit moot
21:09:57 <unfy> that's called being fired with american amusements :)
21:10:00 <I440r__> get svn and fire anyone who wont use it
21:10:16 <unfy> boss has no problem scrapping a project that took 3-6 months to make that is unmaintainable by his minions :)
21:10:30 <unfy> om: i don't call those shots, otherwise alot of things would be different :)
21:10:35 <I440r__> :)
21:10:49 <I440r__> u have the same problems on a contract but the difference is
21:10:52 <I440r__> youdont give a damn
21:11:41 <unfy> hmmmmmm yeah... well... if i could do that, have the project canned, and not worry about working there... sure :)
21:12:05 <I440r__> contracts are a dime a dzn
21:12:13 <I440r__> dont want to deal with the BS
21:12:17 <I440r__> then.... 
21:12:18 <I440r__> DONT!
21:12:19 <I440r__> lol
21:12:45 <unfy> heh
21:12:59 <unfy> contract work aint for me tho, i tend to like getting something going :)
21:13:29 <I440r__> starting somethig from the ground instead of dealing with 30 year old legacy code
21:13:30 <I440r__> drool!
21:13:56 <unfy> ..... there might be something like that happening in the future....
21:14:07 <unfy> when we move to the new platform, the old stuff will be useless
21:14:33 <I440r__> sometimes it was useless BEFORE you moved lol
21:15:31 <unfy> ooh, it is :)
21:15:32 <unfy> no doubt
21:16:12 <I440r__> lol
21:16:13 <unfy> i find myself doing alot of database and network stuff lately... kinda miss writing device drivers
21:16:32 <I440r__> ick i couldnt stand database crap
21:16:55 <unfy> alot of DWIM in db work... slightly distasteful, yeah :)
21:17:48 <unfy> hexie's been playing with his newton and also with ajax
21:18:04 <I440r__> dunno what those are
21:18:06 <unfy> i've been playing with sdl on pda and s3m playback on pc
21:18:19 <I440r__> i was developing a forth compiler for arm
21:18:23 <unfy> newton - long dead apple pda, ajax - complicated web weirdness
21:18:32 <I440r__> but i need an arm assembler for my linux forth to do it right
21:18:39 <slava> ask werty
21:18:43 <slava> he has an assembler
21:18:46 <unfy> sdl - cross platform multimedia api
21:18:48 <I440r__> werty is a nebbish
21:20:07 <I440r__> i was hoping YOU would write it slava :)
21:20:20 <slava> i will be writing a postfix assembler
21:20:35 <I440r__> make it work eithe way
21:20:42 <slava> no need
21:20:50 <I440r__> jsut use my r> var @ >r var ! method
21:21:29 <slava> it will be easier if you wrote your own than porting mine to forht
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21:22:05 <mark4> oopts
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21:23:02 <unfy> kitchen calls, mopping to be done
21:23:42 <mark4> ok, who made a mess :)P
21:23:56 <unfy> the femme before she left :)
21:24:02 <unfy> well, got booted out :)
21:26:30 <mark4> by who ?
21:26:31 <mark4> lol
21:29:52 <unfy> me, of course :)
21:30:18 <mark4> oh
21:30:33 <mark4> got booted out of kitchen or out of house ?
21:31:44 <unfy> house :)
21:31:56 <mark4> perm?
21:32:09 <unfy> definately
21:32:16 <mark4> ouch
21:35:21 <mark4> how do u make labels in an asm file visible to c
21:35:33 <mark4> they are already global
21:36:01 <wiml> mark4: do you have the _underscore that C likes?
21:36:06 <mark4> nope
21:36:21 <mark4> but it doesnt help to add it
21:36:23 <wiml> usually a C identifier FOO corresponds to an asm identifier _FOO
21:36:26 <wiml> oh well
21:36:43 <wiml> can you 'nm' the .o file and see your symbol?
21:37:23 <mark4> nm ?
21:38:00 <wiml> command to list the symbols (names) in an object file
21:38:01 <mark4> this is in windows using the arm devel suite
21:38:50 <wiml> oh, windows. if it's based on the gnu toolchain it probably includes nm (maybe as arm-nm or something like that)
21:38:56 <mark4> its not
21:38:57 <wiml> even in windows
21:38:59 <wiml> I think
21:39:13 <wiml> well, never mind then, I am beyond my expertise :)
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21:40:02 <unfy> hm
21:40:23 <unfy> in masm, it's typically by adding 'public foo' before foo is declared.
21:40:49 <unfy> so you'd have public foo ; foo label dword  ...
21:41:24 <mark4> its called global or export here
21:41:27 <JasonWoof> Quartus: idiots in Maroon :) I like it
21:42:03 <JasonWoof> man, I never get any work done on monday
21:42:29 <wiml> it's a holiday for me
21:42:38 <wiml> but I bet I won't get any work done tomorrow either
21:43:15 <JasonWoof> oh right. mlk
21:43:16 <Quartus> heh
21:43:37 <JasonWoof> I tend to ignore all hollidays except xmas, new years and thanksgiving
21:48:21 <Quartus_> haloween, easter, st. Patrick's day, labor day... :)
21:53:16 <Quartus_> should be the day after st. patrick's day that's the holiday
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22:00:12 <Quartus_> hey ray
22:00:17 <nighty_> rhaaa I can not boot partition magic from a USB CDROM
22:00:20 <nighty_> help
22:00:22 <nighty_> :)
22:00:31 <nighty_> I hate windows
22:00:31 <mark4> lol
22:00:40 <mark4> windows sux
22:00:47 <nighty_> yes big time
22:01:23 <JasonWoof> I third that
22:01:54 <slava> i forth that
22:02:03 <JasonWoof> hehe :)
22:02:06 <slava> out of all three factor's ui backends, the windows one is by far the most complex
22:02:11 <slava> without offering any extra functionality
22:02:13 <nighty_> no one has this handy ? 
22:02:23 <slava> all it does is open a gl window and receive events
22:02:25 <nighty_> Partition Magic Bootable from a USB Key ? 
22:02:28 <slava> which is an adventure on windows
22:02:34 <nighty_> that would help
22:02:36 <slava> on mac you subclass NSOpenGLView, on x11 its relatively straightforward
22:02:38 <slava> on windows...
22:03:55 * nighty_ takes a hammer and bangs on the windows machine
22:04:20 <nighty_> voilà, now I have no more problems :)
22:04:24 <Quartus_> why do you need to do it?
22:04:52 <nighty_> one of my colleagues has a bricked his laptop
22:04:56 <slava> factor will be running on windows mobile soon
22:05:05 <nighty_> and it the same as mine 
22:05:12 <nighty_> acer sub notebook
22:05:26 <nighty_> no floppy
22:05:33 <nighty_> only cdrom (firewire)
22:05:56 <nighty_> restore DVD from acer does not work becauce partitions have been changed
22:06:05 <Quartus_> boot from the cd?
22:06:12 <nighty_> Quartus: CD boots
22:06:23 <nighty_> Quartus: but it is a DVD backup thing
22:06:31 <Quartus_> boot windows, run text mode PM
22:06:36 <slava> what is jtag?
22:06:42 <nighty_> Quartus: that they ask you to do when you first boot the laptop
22:06:55 <nighty_> Quartus: and this does not redo the partitions
22:07:13 <nighty_> Quartus: it just tries to disk dump back to the existing paritions
22:07:19 <nighty_> Quartus: which are not there 
22:07:22 <nighty_> Quartus: anymore
22:07:37 <Quartus_> alternately, boot a linux live cd and partition with that
22:07:55 <slava> Quartus: any ideas?
22:07:55 <nighty_> Quartus: yes I will KNOOPIX it
22:08:06 <nighty_> Quartus: but I think it will not wokr 
22:08:08 <nighty_> work
22:08:16 <JasonWoof> nighty_: what's with all the verbing?
22:08:28 <Quartus_> slava, jtag? I don't recall. J suggests java, and that's not my expertise :)
22:08:35 <slava> no, nothing to do with java
22:08:40 <slava> its some kind of standard for reflashing hardware over tftp
22:08:43 <nighty_> I'll call Acer tomorrow and return the &&µ%£ laptop to them 
22:08:44 <nighty_> :)
22:08:48 <JasonWoof> neither "brick" nor "knoppix" are verbs
22:08:59 <slava> JasonWoof: "to brick" means to render a piece of hardware useless :)
22:09:06 <slava> by screwing up the bios, perhaps
22:09:10 <nighty_> JasonWoof: to pluto it :)
22:09:18 <wiml> slava: joint test action group
22:09:23 <slava> thanks
22:09:24 <wiml> named after the group that defined the interface
22:09:37 <wiml> kinda like jpeg is "joint photographic experts group"
22:09:52 <JasonWoof> slava: I believe that's "to bork"
22:10:03 <slava> to bork is too general
22:10:04 <nighty_> JasonWoof: yes to bork 
22:10:13 <wiml> jtag is a 4-wire interface that lets you do testing and sometimes program flash
22:10:14 <JasonWoof> brick is a noun
22:10:30 <wiml> all nouns are verbs
22:10:32 <wiml> :)
22:10:37 <nighty_> JasonWoof: it just became a verb :)
22:10:53 <Quartus_> verb is also a noun
22:11:00 <JasonWoof> hmm..., ok it's a verb too: 1. To lay or pave with bricks; to surround, line, or construct with bricks.
22:11:53 <JasonWoof> Quartus_: yep. I was being annoying. like saying "sorry, my speling isn't very good"
22:12:04 <Quartus_> heh
22:12:34 <JasonWoof> there's a funny calving and hobbes strip about "verbing words"
22:13:28 * JasonWoof downgrades to a stable version of the gimp
22:13:54 <JasonWoof> the latest unstable (gentoo ppc) crashes when I try to use the crop tool
22:14:34 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:20:20 <mark4> br
22:20:22 <mark4> brb even
22:20:28 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke")
22:20:31 --- quit: mark4 ()
22:23:19 --- part: wiml left #forth
22:27:27 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@ip70-162-111-107.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth
22:27:42 <I440r> does xchat for windows become nagware after 30 days ?
22:27:53 <I440r> or does it just stop working
22:27:57 <I440r> erm
22:28:01 <I440r> basically thats nagware
22:33:24 <grub_booter> umm - it shouldn't do anything like that..
22:34:35 <grub_booter> open source != shareware
22:35:02 <slava> windows xchat is shareware
22:35:12 <grub_booter> really?
22:35:20 <slava> yup
22:35:21 <grub_booter> umm - the code is gpl...
22:35:28 <slava> yes, but the binary package expires after 30 days
22:35:34 <slava> you can compie the source yourself and it won't nag you
22:35:42 <grub_booter> that's lunacy
22:35:53 <grub_booter> at least they provide the code...
22:35:56 <slava> its pretty dumb. there was an outcry about it but apparently its not against the terms of the gpl.
22:36:12 <slava> the xchat windows package is not done by the xchat developers
22:36:21 <grub_booter> no, it's not - providing the source you download includes the nagware
22:36:40 <grub_booter> if it doesn't, they're in violation of the gpl
22:36:51 <slava> perhaps the nagware is a separate exe wrappers
22:37:24 <grub_booter> doesn't matter - if it's gpl, it includes all components within the running instance
22:37:52 <grub_booter> use gaim instead
22:38:04 <I440r> gaim is crap for irc
22:38:11 <grub_booter> working ok for me
22:38:24 <I440r> for icq/aim yes
22:38:27 <I440r> irc? no
22:38:30 <grub_booter> no for irc
22:39:36 <grub_booter> what's crap about it? what do you need a chat client for other than connecting to a server, joining channels and chatting? :-)
22:40:01 <grub_booter> irc client rather
22:42:26 <I440r> how many chaqnnels on how many servers do you frequent ?
22:42:33 <I440r> im usually on 4 here
22:42:38 <I440r> 3 on undernet
22:42:51 <I440r> and three on blitzed.org
22:42:52 <grub_booter> hmm - probably similar - varies
22:43:16 <I440r> and i also go ijn #guitar on some others
22:43:53 <I440r> and i dont want irc taking up 120% of my screen real estate just to see whats in the tabs
22:44:55 <grub_booter> hmm - my tabs sit on the right hand side - i have 20 open at the moment and room for another 10...
22:45:20 <grub_booter> oddly, i don't have 120% of a screen to fill :-)
22:46:39 <grub_booter> (that's when i maximise - when i'm not minimised, i can right hand click on the tab area to a selectable list of all of them, though there are scroll widgets too)
22:46:49 <grub_booter> not maximised rather
22:47:42 <grub_booter> don't quite understand the complaint though - xchat has similar behaviour
22:50:42 <grub_booter> (fwiw, i also use it for my aim and google chat accounts - i don't see much distinction between irc and those, so it's nice to have all chats in a single window)
22:52:31 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
22:55:15 <I440r> i have icq, aim, yahoo and jabber
22:55:21 <I440r> and NONE of them can hold a candle to irc
22:56:02 <I440r> but irc is too complex for the usual windows mouse operator so they invented point and click chat
22:56:38 <grub_booter> :-)
22:57:37 <grub_booter> yeah, i've been trying to get the world to adapt to a command line video editor, but it's just not working (dammit)
22:57:53 <grub_booter> (and i'm not kidding about the command line video editor either :-D)
22:59:16 <I440r> lol
23:00:31 <grub_booter> gotta scott - my wife is about to have a baby
23:00:42 <grub_booter> (and no, i'm not kidding about that either :-D)
23:01:16 <I440r> lol
23:01:19 <I440r> congrats :)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.01.15