00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.08
00:39:30 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth
01:07:14 <grub_booter> following up on the video stuff i was muttering about yesterday, the following gives an example of use:
01:07:14 <grub_booter> <video1> normalise <video2> normalise 25 mix 25 fade_in -25 fade_out
01:07:14 <grub_booter> end result is the two clips are mixed (and joined) so that they have a transition between them, and the result fades in and out at beginning and end
01:07:30 <slava> what's this for?
01:07:55 <grub_booter> video editing using a derivative of forth
01:08:06 <slava> what kind of forth?
01:08:15 <grub_booter> my own :-) - for now
01:09:17 <grub_booter> i'd like to implement in forth proper - hence i'm here - the underlying stuff is all c++/boost - the top level proto-forth is developed in python
01:09:27 <slava> ah
01:09:40 <slava> i'm working on a high-level forth-like language with comparable abstraction to python but much faster
01:09:49 <grub_booter> ah - cool
01:10:02 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-5acfc66f157ed8fa) joined #forth
01:12:43 <grub_booter> well, this stuff is v. experimental and i haven't finalised the top level implementation (other than the obligatory push/pop interface) - running into some syntactical ambiguities which a rigid use of forth would eradicate
01:21:46 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:23:58 --- join: exsample (i=spf@gateway/tor/x-2d4adbb814153c6c) joined #forth
01:31:55 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54895879.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
01:40:24 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:35:14 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
02:49:57 <exsample> Hey, everybody. How is it going?/QUIT Sorry, being recompiled...
02:50:14 --- quit: exsample ("Sorry, being recompiled...")
02:52:03 --- join: exsample (i=spf@gateway/tor/x-4fb86f5972695c7e) joined #forth
03:30:11 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection)
03:30:11 --- quit: exsample (Remote closed the connection)
03:30:31 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-f06ef29d137063cb) joined #forth
03:54:51 --- join: exsample (i=spf@gateway/tor/x-8c6565b41ac0c706) joined #forth
05:06:45 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection)
05:06:45 --- quit: exsample (Remote closed the connection)
05:07:12 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-59ebbbbe69c1893a) joined #forth
05:07:49 --- join: exsample (i=spf@gateway/tor/x-4b5e0bef2fc1026a) joined #forth
05:22:27 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.115) joined #forth
05:24:05 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
05:24:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi
05:25:37 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-209-238.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
05:31:15 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*")
05:39:48 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection)
05:39:48 --- quit: exsample (Remote closed the connection)
05:55:57 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth
05:58:08 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-2f8886c3838b4944) joined #forth
06:02:10 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-178-66-20.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth
06:02:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
06:06:59 --- join: exsample (n=spf@60-66-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
06:18:44 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth
06:19:35 <Ray_work> Good Morning. 
06:20:18 <grub_booter> hi
06:22:01 <Ray_work> 1
06:22:08 <Ray_work> oops wrong window
06:23:59 <zpg> hey guys
06:25:06 <grub_booter> hi zpg
06:28:12 <zpg> hey grub_booter; i didn't realise you'd written the python-forth layer yourself.
06:28:27 <grub_booter> ah - yup
06:29:39 <grub_booter> stop gap really - in two minds at the moment - either reimplement the rpn stuff in c++ or go forth
06:29:40 <zpg> good stuff. so, you had to hook python into the c++ libraries then?
06:29:47 <grub_booter> yup
06:29:52 <zpg> is that relatively easy to do?
06:29:53 <grub_booter> using boost::python
06:30:08 <grub_booter> yeah - boost makes a big difference
06:30:20 <grub_booter> (almost makes c++ usable in the process too ;-))
06:30:24 <zpg> heh.
06:30:26 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
06:30:31 <grub_booter> not a fan
06:30:38 <zpg> you're not alone there.
06:35:39 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth
06:35:49 <zpg> welcome back Ray.
06:38:40 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm
06:38:41 <Ray_work> thanks. :) hit the power button instead of print screen.
06:38:52 * zpg chuckles
06:39:01 <zpg> power cut out immediately?
06:41:12 --- quit: exsample ("Sorry. Being recompiled...")
06:42:25 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E07D66.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
06:42:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke
06:42:32 <Ray_work> hehe ya
06:42:47 <zpg> hey arke
06:42:58 <arke> hi
06:43:26 <Ray_work> Chris!!!111oneoneone
06:44:01 <Ray_work> take me to your I3373r. :)
06:47:49 <arke> I am your l33t3r. 
06:47:51 <arke> Bow down.
06:47:58 <arke> wait nonono
06:48:01 <arke> lemme do that again
06:48:03 * arke leaves
06:48:05 * arke enters
06:48:19 <arke> l33t3r yours I am.
06:48:22 <arke> Down you bow.
06:48:32 * Ray_work = down bow
06:50:28 <Ray_work> This is starting to hurt cuz i'm so old. ?up get i can when
06:51:20 <zpg> :)
06:57:03 --- join: exsample (n=spf@60-66-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
06:57:19 <Ray_work> exsample help
06:57:20 <exsample> Hello. I am a bot. Try !help.
06:57:27 <Ray_work> exsample !help
06:57:27 <exsample> Hello. I am a bot. Try !help.
06:57:33 <Ray_work> !help
06:57:33 <exsample> IRC bot written in SP-Forth (http://spf.sf.net). alpha (07.Jan.2007)
06:57:33 <exsample> Available commands - !q, !aq, !help. (Use '!help !cmd' for more info).
06:57:47 <Ray_work> !help !q
06:57:47 <exsample> !q - random quote. !q keyword - quote with keyword. !q number - quote by number.
06:58:01 <Ray_work> !q
06:58:01 <exsample> SP-Forth is the best. Visit http://spf.sf.net [ygrek]
06:58:14 <ygrek> :)
06:58:16 <ygrek> that's true
06:58:17 <Ray_work> !help !aq
06:58:17 <exsample> !aq quote - add quote
06:59:05 <zpg> !q 4
06:59:05 <exsample> SP-Forth is the best. Visit http://spf.sf.net [ygrek]
06:59:13 <azekeprofit> !q luke
06:59:14 <exsample> Use Forth, Luke! [azekeprofit]
06:59:49 * zpg slaps his forehead
07:00:00 <azekeprofit> !aq It's alive, it's alive!..
07:00:00 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 1.
07:00:20 <ygrek> arghh
07:00:28 <Ray_work> !aq zpg slaps his forehead
07:00:28 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 1.
07:00:32 <ygrek> yuu have spolied it again, azekeprofit 
07:00:32 <zpg> !q
07:00:33 <exsample>  []
07:00:37 <zpg> !q 2
07:00:37 <exsample> cannot find quote
07:00:43 <Ray_work> !q
07:00:43 <exsample>  []
07:00:47 <zpg> erm, are these aq's overwriting the existing quotes?
07:00:53 <Ray_work> hmm
07:00:59 <Ray_work> !q 5
07:00:59 <exsample> cannot find quote
07:01:02 <ygrek> now - yes ;)
07:01:04 <Ray_work> !q 0
07:01:04 <azekeprofit> What? I did nothing wrong?
07:01:04 <exsample>  []
07:01:12 <ygrek> file with quotes is empty...
07:01:15 <Ray_work> they are not comming up
07:01:33 <Ray_work> !aq Raystm2 slaps zpg's forehead.
07:01:33 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 1.
07:01:37 <Ray_work> !q
07:01:38 <exsample>  []
07:01:41 <Ray_work> doh!
07:01:46 <ygrek> let me fix it
07:01:51 <zpg> the key being Total = 1
07:01:52 <Ray_work> no, You fix it. :)
07:01:56 <Ray_work> ya. :)
07:02:07 --- quit: exsample ("Sorry. Neing fixed..")
07:02:35 <Ray_work> ygrek: forth bot? Which forth?
07:02:38 <zpg> SPF
07:02:42 <zpg> hence the quote, Ray_work 
07:03:13 <Ray_work> Doh!, hey now that was way too obvious for the likes of me.
07:03:52 <Ray_work> Thought I saw that thing around this weekend. It was around more then I was.
07:04:17 * zpg nods
07:06:39 <zpg> the RuFIG site is really bustling.
07:07:19 <zpg> damnit, just remebered that i forgot ... to join the Fig UK chat last weekend.
07:08:05 --- join: exsample (n=spf@60-66-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
07:08:13 <zpg> !q
07:08:13 <exsample> SP-Forth is the best. Visit http://spf.sf.net [ygrek]
07:08:30 <exsample> I am back
07:08:47 <exsample> all quotes wer lost though
07:08:55 <zpg> !aq "FORTH is an amplifier. A good programmer can do a fantastic job with FORTH; a bad programmer can do a disastrous one."
07:08:55 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 2.
07:08:55 <exsample> but I have added backup for now
07:09:06 <zpg> !q
07:09:06 <exsample> "FORTH is an amplifier. A good programmer can do a fantastic job with FORTH; a bad programmer can do a disastrous one." [zpg]
07:09:09 <zpg> neat.
07:09:19 <zpg> somehow i managed to get Moore's words attributed to me heh.
07:11:29 <exsample> IRC bot written in SP-Forth (http://spf.sf.net). alpha (07.Jan.2007)
07:11:29 <exsample> Available commands - !q, !aq, !help. (Use '!help !cmd' for more info).
07:12:07 <TreyB> Well, *that* didn't work as expected.
07:12:21 <zpg> TreyB: did you /query ?
07:12:30 <zpg> ygrek: perhaps a quote modifier would be wise too.
07:12:32 <TreyB> exsample sends results from private messages to #forth.
07:12:32 <exsample> Hello. I am a bot. Try !help.
07:12:51 <TreyB> zpg: yep.
07:13:48 <TreyB> !help !cmd
07:13:48 <exsample> IRC bot written in SP-Forth (http://spf.sf.net). alpha (07.Jan.2007)
07:13:48 <exsample> Available commands - !q, !aq, !help. (Use '!help !cmd' for more info).
07:13:48 <zpg> ygrek: take a look at the emacs fsbot, it's a damned impressive implementation.
07:14:46 <TreyB> S
07:14:50 <TreyB> Ooops.
07:15:14 <TreyB> S" FORTH rocks!" add-quote
07:15:27 <azekeprofit> BYE
07:15:32 <TreyB> Seems more appropriate to the channel.
07:16:46 <azekeprofit> It will open a huge hole into ygrek's system...
07:17:14 <zpg> not if you don't directly execute.
07:17:31 <Ray_work> !help !q
07:17:32 <exsample> !q - random quote. !q keyword - quote with keyword. !q number - quote by number.
07:17:41 <TreyB> !q
07:17:41 <exsample> SP-Forth is the best. Visit http://spf.sf.net [ygrek]
07:17:42 <Ray_work> !q 2
07:17:42 <exsample> cannot find quote
07:17:45 <zpg> but that aside, you don't want normal forth to be executable in the channel unless it's prefixed with something.
07:17:46 <zpg> lile
07:17:50 <Ray_work> !q 1
07:17:50 <exsample> "FORTH is an amplifier. A good programmer can do a fantastic job with FORTH; a bad programmer can do a disastrous one." [zpg]
07:17:55 <zpg> *like ",, s" hi there" add-quote"
07:17:56 <ygrek> TreyB, ok. I'll fixed it.
07:18:00 <Ray_work> !q 0
07:18:00 <exsample> SP-Forth is the best. Visit http://spf.sf.net [ygrek]
07:18:35 * azekeprofit is still waiting for ygrek to commit his bot on CVS..
07:19:07 <TreyB> zpg: yeah, I'd thought of that.
07:19:23 <ygrek> "!q" seems to be a standard syntax for such bots
07:19:55 <TreyB> Indeed, but it behaves like a parsing word ;-)
07:19:56 <ygrek> azekeprofit, soon. need to clean the code, you know
07:20:41 <Ray_work> !aq C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language.
07:20:41 <Ray_work> Forth makes you think that you're the world's greatest programmer. <Peter J. Knaggs> [added by]
07:20:41 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 3.
07:20:47 <Ray_work> !q 2
07:20:47 <exsample> C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language. [Ray_work]
07:20:53 <Ray_work> doh!
07:21:05 <zpg> heheh
07:21:23 <Ray_work> !aq C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language. Forth makes you think that you're the world's greatest programmer. <Peter J. Knaggs> 
07:21:23 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 4.
07:21:24 <ygrek> TreyB, it almost is
07:21:30 <Ray_work> !q 3
07:21:30 <exsample> C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language. Forth makes you think that you're the world's greatest programmer. <Peter J. Knaggs>  [Ray_work]
07:22:32 <Ray_work> wonder if you should beable to give !aq a number to fix a quote.
07:23:11 <ygrek> !aq Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
07:23:11 <ygrek>  Did gyre and gimble in the wabe...
07:23:11 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 5.
07:23:12 <TreyB> That way leads to quote assassination.
07:23:22 <ygrek> ARGHH
07:23:36 <ygrek> !aq Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe...
07:23:36 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 6.
07:23:59 <ygrek> Ray_work, maybe
07:24:02 <Ray_work> TreyB since it records the adders nick, maybe the adder can change.
07:24:11 <ygrek> but in presence of no authentication it can be treated as a bug
07:24:21 <Ray_work> I see.
07:24:35 <zpg> ygrek: how are you storing these quotes?
07:24:36 <TreyB> Perhaps only registered nicks could do it?
07:24:43 <ygrek> simpel text file
07:24:52 <Ray_work> well, then, there is a way to hack the file online by access to that text file.
07:25:18 <ygrek> thats too compilicated. It 's easier for me (llike a moderator) to delete bad ones
07:25:33 <Ray_work> true. 
07:25:50 <absentia> public bot commands are considered harmful (ie: bad form)
07:25:51 <absentia> :-)
07:26:03 <Ray_work> makes sence.
07:26:16 <TreyB> exsample's 15 minutes of fame have almost ended.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.
07:26:16 <exsample> Hello. I am a bot. Try !help.
07:26:21 * absentia notes his first irc bot was *completed* march '89.
07:26:46 <absentia> !aq !a1 !rq 1; .s ""'"'; .s
07:26:46 <exsample> Quote added. Thanks. Total = 7.
07:27:02 <ygrek> :)
07:27:36 <absentia> when Iw as bored, I use to get bots to package up their source code and email it to me ... :-)
07:27:37 <ygrek> that was a nothing-to-do sunday
07:28:01 <zpg> !q 6
07:28:01 <exsample> !a1 !rq 1; .s ""'"'; .s [absentia]
07:28:04 <zpg> heh
07:28:15 <absentia> :-)
07:28:28 <absentia> a1 was supposed to be aq
07:28:49 <TreyB> Does exsample watch its own output?
07:28:49 <exsample> Hello. I am a bot. Try !help.
07:29:06 <ygrek> dunno. suppose no
07:29:21 <absentia> my bot "iq" did... it wouldn't send the same output if that output was sent in the previous X messages.
07:29:37 <ygrek> if the server doesn't send its own messages back - then no
07:30:22 <absentia> it use to be that the first program I wrote in a language was an irc bot :-)
07:30:59 <Ray_work> absentia: I like to write chess games as a 'hello world' :)
07:31:06 <absentia> ah
07:31:35 <Ray_work> I have 5 different versions for colorforth alone.
07:31:49 * absentia doesn't have any interest in colorforth.
07:32:03 <Ray_work> that's prob'ly prudent.
07:33:15 <Ray_work> colorforth is not for the feign of heart. Not a newbie language.
07:33:31 <absentia> <-- noob
07:33:44 <Ray_work> heck it's not even an experianced persons language.
07:34:22 <zpg> absentia: how goes the forth?
07:34:30 <zpg> Ray_work: any thoughts on AI in chess?
07:34:50 <absentia> pretty good.  I haven't had any time to code since a few days ago.  but I should get some more time soon.  I'm debating coding forth now -- but I think I should get some work done.
07:35:07 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth
07:35:14 <absentia> the first program I write that plays cess will also play checkers.
07:35:20 <zpg> :)
07:35:33 <absentia> are you familiar with the datastrcture for the chess board -- "bitboard" /
07:35:33 <absentia> ?
07:35:52 <zpg> "_the_ datastructure"?
07:36:04 <absentia> ya
07:36:26 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth
07:37:55 --- quit: exsample ("being fixed")
07:48:58 --- part: ygrek left #forth
07:49:20 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl")
07:50:24 <Ray_work> zpg: for my chess AI's I'm gonna have to beg, borrow, and steal from what I find out there in c and forth.
07:51:12 <Ray_work> I've only coded 2 player's so far.
07:51:14 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-b2753b0051954112) joined #forth
07:51:32 <zpg> Ray_work: :)
07:54:28 <Quartus> hey
07:56:21 <Ray_work> absentia I've not used the bitboard yet, but I have used a structure that very closely resembles FEN where the board and several other interesting tid bits of necessary information is kept.
07:56:34 <Ray_work> Quartus!!!111oneoneon
08:00:48 <zpg> hi Quartus
08:00:57 <Quartus> how are things?
08:01:01 <zpg> ailing.
08:01:04 <zpg> yourself?
08:01:11 <Quartus> Hanging in. What ails you?
08:01:27 <zpg> my sinuses closely resemble the english weather.
08:01:43 <Quartus> ah
08:01:46 <zpg> :)
08:02:14 <zpg> i'm working my way through the history of curses while making medicinal teas.
08:02:16 <Ray_work> zpg gray and snotty?  0.o
08:02:35 <zpg> more translucent than grey. english complexion you knoeeww.
08:03:10 <Ray_work> " get you tan from laying in the English rain. I am the Eggman WHOOO"
08:03:38 <zpg> Make sure you catch that new film, "Lennon vs. The Common Cold"
08:03:46 <Ray_work> How can an Eggman maintain a fortune?
08:05:10 * zpg gives up
08:07:20 <Ray_work> Ken Thompson and Tom Zimmer, they will be the people who find their chess AI's in my chess. 
08:12:00 --- join: exsample (n=spf@60-66-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net) joined #forth
08:12:25 <exsample> /me was fixed to support private messages ;) if anyone cares
08:15:56 <Ray_work> I care, very nearly.
08:19:06 <zpg> ygrek: you might want to opt for a better name for this bot
08:22:21 <ygrek> ir is ok for me. and I have already even registered it.
08:41:07 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
08:41:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi
08:41:13 <Quartus> hi tathi.
08:41:14 <Ray_work> tathi :)
08:41:25 <tathi> hi all
08:41:38 <Ray_work> Sorry, all is not here.
08:41:46 --- nick: zpg -> all
08:41:49 <all> hi tathi 
08:41:52 --- nick: all -> zpg
08:41:52 <Ray_work> Wait, this just in...
08:42:00 <Ray_work> ... and out.
08:42:17 <zpg> i blacked out, what happened?
08:42:20 --- quit: Quartus ()
08:42:34 <Ray_work> zpg, somehow you channelled us all.
08:43:01 <zpg> neat, the pills are doing their job then.
08:43:01 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
08:43:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus
08:43:05 <zpg> wb Quartus
08:43:11 <Ray_work> hey, there's Quartus.
08:43:20 <zpg> what're the chances?
08:43:21 <Ray_work> Where ya, been, ol' man?
08:43:33 <Quartus> just cycled
08:43:42 <Ray_work> 10 speed?
08:43:50 * Ray_work needs a bike.
08:44:07 <Ray_work> anybody got a bike for sale. I'm looking in the direction of the fat programmers here...
08:44:11 * tathi too
08:44:36 <Ray_work> hey tathi  'too' sorta looks like a bike . 
08:44:41 <tathi> actually, I have a bike, but it's getting pretty beat up.
08:44:43 <tathi> :)
08:45:09 <Ray_work> You shouldn' t ride it in the forrows.
08:45:39 <tathi> nah, it's just old.
08:46:25 <tathi> relatively low-end bike, the dealer told me I'd probably get about 1700 miles on it before it started needing serious repairs.
08:46:33 <tathi> it has been way more than that :)
08:46:49 <zpg> impressive mileage.
08:47:21 <tathi> eh.  over 10 years it's not so much.
08:47:29 <zpg> ah.
08:47:37 <zpg> numbers have a way of adding up over time;
08:47:44 <zpg> dude.
08:47:53 <tathi> I'm not a real hard-core biker; the most I've ever biked regularly was about 15 miles/day, 4-5 days a  week.
08:48:08 <Ray_work> When I was training, I rode 40 miles a day 6 days a week.
08:48:26 <Ray_work> 20 miles out, rest, 20 back.
08:48:35 <zpg> training for?
08:48:40 <tathi> nice :)
08:48:52 <Ray_work> soccor ( football!?!?!) and track.
08:49:12 <zpg> when was this?
08:49:14 <Ray_work> I had legs that continued on the next rider.
08:49:18 <Ray_work> 20 years ago.
08:49:29 <Ray_work> 23 years ago.
08:49:38 * zpg nods
08:49:49 <zpg> not a social football club then? :)
08:49:58 <zpg> they have those (soccer clubs) in texas?
08:50:04 <Ray_work> ya.
08:50:10 <zpg> neat.
08:50:21 <zpg> well, can't say i can stand the game, but even so.
08:50:35 <Ray_work> texas is a very big american-football state. But soccer is gaining popularity regularly.
08:50:49 <Ray_work> It's horrible to watch and fun to play.
08:50:56 <zpg> 'soccer'?
08:51:07 <Ray_work> ya.
08:51:10 <tathi> football to the rest of the world :)
08:51:11 <Ray_work> both really . :)
08:51:28 <zpg> curious. obviously, brits don't really understand the appeal of baseball or american football -- nothing ever happens.
08:51:35 <zpg> (we'll leave cricket out of it!)
08:52:04 <zpg> i watched a live dodgers match in la and nearly died of boredom.
08:52:07 <Ray_work> 'cept here's something odd. USA always seems to win the World Series. Come on world, where's the competition.
08:52:14 <zpg> heh.
08:52:24 <zpg> yeah, a not-so-subtle statement on how the us views itself.
08:52:38 <tathi> yeah, I never saw the appeal of American football or baseball.
08:52:44 <Ray_work> Baseball is for sensibilities of 2 centuries ago.
08:52:55 <Quartus> Baseball wasn't around 2 centuries ago.
08:53:00 <Ray_work> its for something to do during the comunity picknick.
08:53:04 <Ray_work> community even.
08:53:09 <Ray_work> yes it was!
08:53:16 <Ray_work> started in the 1800's
08:53:19 <zpg> would i be right in thinking that, if you swallow the stats, baseball is less about what happens on the field than it is about the league table?
08:53:26 <Ray_work> that's 2 centuries ago.
08:53:27 <Quartus> Two centuries ago was 1807.
08:53:36 <Ray_work> no 200 years ago is 1807
08:53:46 <Quartus> Two centuries is 200 years.
08:53:47 <zpg> century = 100 years Ray_work 
08:54:09 <Ray_work> sheesh.
08:54:14 <zpg> aye.
08:55:16 <Quartus> It was arguably around in 1825, but there weren't written rules until 1845 or so
08:55:42 <Quartus> And the modern rules differ substantially.
08:56:06 * Ray_work remind himself that programmers are a very literal bunch.
09:01:16 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth
09:15:05 <Ray_work> ooh, sorry zpg, ya you are right. The real fanactic, it's about the stats. 
09:30:25 <Quartus> Chess is for antique sensibilities too, I suppose.
09:30:26 <Quartus> :)
09:31:37 <Ray_work> Tis true.
09:32:02 <Ray_work> Looking like some form of baseball going back many many "literal" :) centuries.
09:33:40 <Ray_work> Which is apposed to say a Ray-century, which seems to be consistant of any range of years between 1 and 101. 
09:33:56 <zpg> :)
09:34:00 <Quartus> nothing that resembles the current game until the middle of the 19th century.
09:34:14 <zpg> then came the plague.
09:34:23 <Ray_work> Ab-so-true-tly.
09:34:24 <Quartus> Chess was pretty close to the modern rules in the 17th century.
09:35:25 <zpg> And then there's Chinese Chess.
09:35:35 <Ray_work> zpg, only because, "No-one expects the Spanish Inquistioin".
09:37:07 <zpg> curious, ray.
09:37:16 <Ray_work> We are about to go thru something akin to the plague, when the babyboomers die out and leave considerable holdings to a tinier constituency.
09:37:52 <zpg> they re-televised some of the "friday night, saturday morning" show where palin and cleese were quizzed about the blasphemy of brian. palin's face was genuinely hysterical, the look of disbelief and anger that was painted across it.
09:38:11 <Quartus> Ray, you're comparing the aging baby-boomer population to the Black Death?
09:38:24 <zpg> Quartus: it all happened a century ago, sure.
09:43:22 <Ray_work> No sorry, not the plague itself but the people left behind.
09:48:41 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.115) joined #forth
09:49:42 <Ray_work> zpg : hehe
09:58:23 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest
10:12:13 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth
10:20:19 <Ray_work> Go ahead, guess. How much for the caster portion of a helicopter landing pad.
10:20:29 <Quartus> $17.50.
10:20:40 <Ray_work> US or Canadian?
10:20:44 <zpg> Cost or retail?
10:20:51 <Quartus> Australian.
10:20:51 <Ray_work> retail.
10:21:00 <Ray_work> Quartus ooh close... but no.
10:21:07 * zpg guffaws
10:21:45 <Ray_work> maybe a description will help.
10:22:46 <Quartus> $35.
10:23:21 <zpg> Quartus: Maine or Vermont dollars?
10:23:46 <Quartus> Susan B. Anthony.
10:26:10 <Quartus> Wait, $34.16.
10:26:14 <Ray_work> The swivel mechanism, before I turn it from it's single wheel configuration and turn it into a double wheel configuration, ya, I could if I wanted to, and I don't, give you a price of just 34.16
10:26:39 <Quartus> Ray, I think I speak for all when I say absolutely nobody cares how much the swivel mechanism for a helicopter landing pad costs. :)
10:26:41 <Ray_work> closer to 10 times
10:26:59 <Ray_work> zpg, does Quartus speak for you?
10:27:24 <Ray_work> Quartus: you may or may not know this but zpg plays all in these chats.
10:27:36 <Quartus> Then yes.
10:28:09 <zpg> Ray_work: I might have passed the baton to Quartus there ;)
10:28:23 <zpg> Mr. Q "All" Forth
10:28:34 <zpg> as he's known in these parts.
10:28:55 <Quartus> Wait... no, I thought I was interested in retail prices for mechanical components I have no use for, but I was wrong. :)
10:29:07 <Quartus> Bit of undigested potato.
10:29:17 <zpg> Ah, the Irish Dollar.
10:30:28 <Ray_work> Not interested in bits of undigested potato. I think I speak for no-one when I say, could you please ( hehe) keep it down. :)
10:30:44 <Quartus> heh
10:31:16 <zpg> :)
10:37:19 <Ray_work> you know, as it turns out, I'm not so interested in that 'mechanical componant' either. 
10:37:35 <zpg> Who knew?
10:38:54 <Ray_work> For the life of me, I can't seem to get my sugar below 140 anymore.
10:39:35 <Ray_work> I'll be giving up my feet and eyes someday, so... Guess how much, retail, for a set of feet with eyes on them?
10:40:25 <Quartus_> give up aspartame, and lift weights.
10:41:42 * Ray_work goes to make soup.
10:41:47 <zpg> close enough.
11:28:51 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth
11:30:51 --- quit: exsample ("being recompiled")
11:33:03 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth
11:54:55 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E04CC2.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
11:55:11 <zpg> wb arke_
11:56:04 <arke_> thx
11:58:56 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.)
11:59:10 --- nick: arke_ -> arke
11:59:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke
12:01:20 <Ray_work> wb arke :)
12:01:31 <arke> :)
12:01:37 <slava> how's the forth?
12:01:38 <Ray_work> What's the haps, chaps?
12:01:49 <Ray_work> Jump in! The forth is fine! :)
12:02:02 <zpg> yep, coming along well so far.
12:02:17 <Ray_work> How are you slava.
12:04:31 <Quartus_> hey slava
12:05:36 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA  ERROR")
12:06:02 <zpg> Downloading via sourceforge seems to get harder by the day.
12:06:50 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth
12:11:15 <Quartus_> THINK !!!
12:11:46 <zpg> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
12:12:31 <Ray_work> NO PRIMS NO MEDIUM LEVEL ALL HIGH LEVEL CODE WILL BE ELIMINATED< EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE!!!
12:12:57 <Ray_work> I think werty is some how related to Dalek excrement.
12:13:47 <Quartus_> hmm
12:17:36 * Ray_work starts the QuaaLUDDITES. 
12:17:53 <Ray_work> JUST TAKE THE DAMN PILL AND CALM DOWN!!!
12:24:09 <Quartus_> there is a new werty just now I see.
12:24:58 <Ray_work> So, Jacquard goes into the LUDDITE museum, takes this loom, and that card reader, walla windows.
12:25:33 <slava> http://onigirihouse.com:9010/factor-desktop.png
12:25:51 <Ray_work> pretty.
12:26:30 <Ray_work> very cool too.
12:26:50 <Ray_work> see if you can spell FACTOR with Tetris letters.
12:29:13 <Ray_work> Man those Space Invader characters sure does bring back memories of the old small town pool hall in the mid-late seventies.
12:29:31 <slava> that's an intel 8080 emulator.
12:29:35 <Ray_work> sorry, read pool hall as bowling ally.
12:29:49 <zpg> heh.
12:30:06 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-178-095.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
12:30:15 <Ray_work> Snoop there he is!
12:31:35 <Quartus_> slava, 8080 emulator written in factor?
12:31:39 <slava> yes
12:32:03 <Quartus_> neat
12:32:13 <zpg> it would certainly seem that Mr. Slava has done some work.
12:32:21 <slava> i didn't write the emulator
12:32:35 <zpg> even so, factor's clearly a pretty flexible system. who wrote it?
12:33:04 <slava> chris double wrote the emulator
12:33:57 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth
12:34:15 * arke considers how to make a decoration word for a forth that reveals on :
12:34:24 <arke> what i mean is ...
12:34:30 <arke> in "normal" forth, you can do
12:34:33 <arke> : blah ... ;
12:34:36 <arke> : blah ... blah ...;
12:34:44 <arke> the second one is a decorator for the first
12:34:55 <arke> however, that only works if blah isn't revealed before ;
12:34:59 <frunobulax> Slava: how does the emulator do the space invader characters? Do you emulate CP/M too?
12:35:04 <Quartus_> I don't follow.
12:35:06 <arke> I'd like to have it so that blah is revealed before ; (at : to be exact)
12:35:18 <slava> frunobulax: eh?
12:35:19 <arke> so I'm considering how to call the old word easily.
12:35:26 <slava> frunobulax: the emulator runs a rom image
12:35:57 <Quartus_> in a standard forth, the name is not revealed until complete. You'd use recurse. What system are you using now?
12:36:08 <arke> Quartus_: custom.
12:36:08 <arke> :)
12:36:18 <zpg> wait for it....
12:36:19 <Quartus_> then the answer is in there.
12:36:22 <zpg> hi frunobulax 
12:36:28 <frunobulax> Slava: But that doesn't give it access to/knowledge of an X terminal automagically?
12:36:47 <slava> frunobulax: the emulator emulates the video display and displays it with opengl
12:36:53 <slava> it runs without modification on windows and mac os x too
12:37:19 <arke> Quartus_: In standard forth, you reveal on ;, and have RECURSE .. however, I'm trying to think of how I'd do it to do it in the reverse - reveal on : (not ;) and then how would I best have the user call the previous implemented word?
12:37:34 <arke> I considered adding a OLD word or something but that seems silly
12:37:41 <arke> or maybe not.
12:37:44 <Quartus_> that's why revealing early is clumsy, arke.
12:37:46 <arke> I just need a decent name for it. 
12:37:49 <slava> arke: what are you coding?
12:38:04 <arke> slava: little script thingie for fun
12:38:17 <arke> Quartus_: I like early revealing though :)
12:38:52 <Quartus_> I don't know why. It gains you nothing and gives rise to the very problem you're discussing.
12:38:59 <frunobulax> Slava: In order to do that you would need to know what funny calls the ROM image tries to make?
12:39:24 <slava> the rom image runs on bare hardware and reads/writes 8080 i/o ports
12:39:35 <slava> do you know how emulators work?
12:40:18 <arke> :/
12:40:44 <zpg> Factor's giving me "Operating system signal 11" when I try to run the .app
12:41:01 <slava> what os x version?
12:41:12 <zpg> .3.9
12:41:13 --- quit: ygrek ()
12:41:18 <slava> factor won't run on 10.3 or earlier
12:41:25 <zpg> tiger+?
12:41:32 <slava> yes, you need 10.4
12:41:40 <zpg> yet another nail in the coffin of this laptop.
12:41:56 <zpg> what's changed that makes it 10.4+?
12:42:08 <zpg> i've tinkered in factor before on here.
12:42:09 <slava> assorted cocoa additions
12:42:14 * zpg grumbles
12:42:19 <zpg> so much for that.
12:42:27 <slava> sorry, i don't have the time to support obsolete versions
12:43:37 <frunobulax> Writing to hardware ports means that you must know what is connected to those ports. That is even worse than OS calls. </flabbergasted>
12:43:54 <zpg> slava: that hurt!
12:44:04 <Quartus_> yes. The olde video games were all coded like that.
12:44:20 <zpg> fruno is flabber!
12:45:03 <slava> frunobulax: eh?
12:45:13 <Quartus_> they weren't coded with an eye to ease-of-emulation 30 years later.
12:45:24 <slava> heh
12:46:11 <arke> lol
12:46:47 <frunobulax> <flubbered> Oh, I see. It's not just an 8080 emulator, it emulates a real game console or something? </lubbered>
12:46:53 <zpg> slava: so i take it everyone using factor/osx has gone tiger already?
12:47:06 <slava> frunobulax: yes
12:47:15 <slava> frunobulax: and its generic so different virtual hardware can be 'pluggedi n'
12:47:20 <slava> zpg: or stopped using factor
12:47:26 <slava> zpg: tiger is what, over a year old now?
12:47:31 <zpg> something like that.
12:47:32 <frunobulax> Slava: Thanks. Hats off. Heading off.
12:47:47 --- quit: frunobulax ("a quit that really quits")
12:47:57 <zpg> slava: i always resented forking out another £100 for slightly more junk i was unlikely to use.
12:48:08 * slava shrugs
12:48:15 <slava> that's the price you pay for using a non-free OS.
12:48:19 <Quartus_> luddite
12:48:22 <zpg> quite.
12:49:23 <Quartus_> quartus forth runs all the way back to Palm OS 3. So there. :)
12:50:19 <zpg> :)
12:51:23 <Quartus_> and you can write apps that run under OS1.  Nardy nar nar. :)
12:52:21 <zpg> is there a strict reason for using cocoa calls that aren't in 10.3, or is just a matter of convenience? i.e., are you provided with anything indispensible / time-saving?
12:52:31 <slava> a matter of convenience
12:52:35 <zpg> *is it
12:52:38 <zpg> hmm, okay.
12:52:45 <zpg> well, i'd love to try out factor, but seemingly, can't.
13:02:28 <Quartus> Such is the nature of non-profit adventures in software; you cannot appeal to his wallet. :)
13:03:36 * zpg grins
13:04:08 <jackokring> just found out the santa clara connector on my max II dev kit has a 40 pin connector which could be used for an ATA harddisk, so having storage for my forth system seems possible reasonably easy
13:10:03 <absentia> slava -- is that a rule90?
13:10:08 <absentia> in the upper left?
13:10:24 <slava> i don't know, i didn't make the screenshot
13:11:00 <absentia> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ElementaryCellularAutomaton.html
13:12:11 --- join: grfrblshntz (n=smee@66-168-78-251.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com) joined #forth
13:12:13 <absentia> (q: see, depth first browsing of wikipedia does come in handy -- actually, 3-4 pages were references of/to factor & slava, etc).
13:14:08 --- quit: grfrblshntz (Client Quit)
13:17:19 <zpg> is "q:" Quartus, btw?
13:17:27 <Quartus> is it?
13:17:40 <zpg> i've seen him use it like that before, it's quite confusing.
13:25:18 <Ray_work> !aq q: == Quartus.
13:28:46 <Ray_work> zpg: i don't know about you but when I type q and TAB I get Quartus.
13:28:56 <Quartus> The magic of autocomplete.
13:29:12 <Quartus> Perhaps scott runs some unhelpful irc client.
13:29:50 <zpg> perhaps i'm wrong, let's not be hasty.
13:33:17 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving")
13:35:28 <Ray_work> I have to type z TAB TAB to get zpg, the only mechanical benefit is that the two tabs are the same key. :)
13:35:58 <Quartus> ludderific!
13:36:15 <Ray_work> heh
13:37:57 <zpg> i don't believe i've ever spoken to Zarutian
13:39:20 <Ray_work> You haven't, I've been watching you.
13:39:53 <Ray_work> Yikes that's creepy.
13:39:59 <Ray_work> Dont' look out the window...
13:40:01 <Quartus> He's in the Land of Ice.
13:40:14 <Ray_work> is he.
13:40:55 <Quartus> Yes, he comes from the land of ice and snow, from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
13:40:58 <Ray_work> I'm in a world of hurt. :(
13:41:28 <zpg> I'm weeping at the pretty verse.
13:45:08 <Quartus> Ok, I posted a reply to Drake that should set him off in spiraling circles.
13:45:17 <zpg> He's been at it again?
13:45:28 <zpg> At times like this I'm glad I only peruse usenet through a web browser.
13:45:44 <Quartus> oh yes. He's biting at rickman's ankles, now, one of his only supporters in the earlier stupidity.
13:45:47 <Quartus> You'll like my reply I think.
13:45:54 --- join: hanknj (n=henry@ool-43505e4b.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth
13:46:34 --- part: hanknj left #forth
13:47:36 * Ray_work tempted to look now before going home.
13:48:02 <zpg> The factorial one?
13:48:08 <Quartus> Right.
13:48:14 <zpg> "grain of salt" etc.
13:48:19 <Quartus> I used the *technique* again. :)
13:48:24 <zpg> I saw, I saw :)
13:48:30 <zpg> He'll love that.
13:48:54 <zpg> This thread is getting unbearably long. 
13:48:56 <Ray_work> Hey no spoilers, darn it, now I have to look. :)
13:49:01 <Quartus> heh
13:51:40 <Ray_work> New Forth does not have heads , for it was for humans at low level. <-- werty. 
13:52:14 <arke> lalala
13:52:23 <Quartus> werty has no head?  That would explain it.
13:52:25 <arke> Hmm.
13:52:43 <Quartus> His real name is Edward Lester Mann.  Ed Les Mann.
13:52:43 <slava> i must have missed the release of NewForth.
13:52:48 <slava> werty is talking about ForthRite now.
13:52:54 <arke> technically, I could always do something like ' blah : blah ... compile ... ;
13:52:56 <slava> Quartus_: that's werty's name?
13:53:07 <Quartus> no, it's my joke.  Ed Les Mann.  Headless man. :)
13:53:13 <slava> haha
13:53:17 <slava> didn't catch that one
13:53:26 <slava> next you'll tell me gullible is not in the dictionary
13:53:36 <Quartus> arke, you could, though that's ugly as sin on a Sunday.
13:53:45 <arke> I know.
13:53:46 <arke> :(
13:53:48 <Quartus> And completely unnecessary if you simply defer findability.
13:53:48 <Ray_work> Quartus funny :)
13:54:21 <Ray_work> slava that's even funnier.
13:54:26 <arke> I guess I could defer findability
13:55:11 <tathi> arke: I would if I were you.
13:55:16 <Ray_work> arke, I thought crc was using some vectoring system to predefine words that he would truely define or even change the definition later.
13:55:45 <arke> Ray_work: The purpose is actually to decorate words with functions
13:55:49 <arke> Ray_work: for example
13:56:01 <arke> Ray_work: : sinc dup sin / ;
13:56:09 <arke> Ray_work: that works but isn't valid for 0
13:56:11 <arke> so 
13:56:33 <arke> : sinc dup 0 = if 1 else sinc then ;
13:56:34 <slava> you want to compute sin(x)/x? :)
13:56:38 <arke> (for a standard forth)
13:56:39 <slava> or x/sin(x)
13:56:42 <arke> slava: thats just an example
13:56:48 <arke> slava: sin(x)/x :)
13:57:00 <arke> oh, I forgot a swap
13:57:00 <arke> :)
13:57:55 <slava> teh stack strikes again!
13:58:07 <Ray_work> stack attack!
14:00:11 <zpg> please tell me you didn't just say that.
14:02:24 <Ray_work> yikes who is this Drake and what is it about his inferiority complex that makes him need to try to trump everybody or answer every attack.
14:02:58 <Quartus> Ray_work, he's some kind of sysadmin somewhere in Tennessee.
14:02:59 <zpg> Good question. There are odd things happening with JDs on usenet. Doty is an almost identical character.
14:03:06 <Quartus> He suffers of Chihuahua syndrome.
14:03:23 <Ray_work> Tiny Dog, Big Bark Inc.
14:03:56 <absentia>  q tab = /msg qpg
14:03:58 <absentia> don't ask.
14:04:01 <Quartus> Repeated, squeaky bark.
14:04:06 <absentia> zpg
14:04:09 <Ray_work> hehe absentia I get it.
14:04:25 <absentia> everyone always tells me to use tab completion -- and it just is borked... for me.
14:04:32 <zpg> absentia: so is "q:" for Quartus then?
14:04:37 * absentia nods.
14:04:42 <zpg> it looks like "Question:"
14:04:45 <zpg> quite confusing.
14:04:53 <absentia> he's unique at char[0]
14:05:09 <zpg> oy.
14:05:21 <absentia> I think I used t: for tathi a while back.
14:05:23 <Ray_work> you don't want a c name in this chat. :)
14:05:38 <absentia> when typing fast, doesn't make sense to try to type out difficult to type nicks... quickly.. over and over.
14:05:48 <slava> then use a real irc client
14:05:52 <Quartus> or type slower.
14:05:59 <slava> or better yet, don't type!
14:06:00 <absentia> got one in forth?
14:06:01 <zpg> absentia: which client is it?
14:06:06 <Ray_work> They are only difficult due to lack of practice.
14:06:08 <absentia>  /ctcp version me
14:06:30 <absentia> ircii 4.4Z
14:06:53 <zpg> Marcel Hendrix has been working on an IRC client for (i)Forth, yes.
14:07:11 <zpg> Looks promising so far.
14:07:12 <absentia> retro?
14:07:14 <zpg> iForth.
14:07:18 <absentia> ah
14:07:53 <zpg> The small mercy being his compatibility layer. I guess you'd have to port to a different socket library too. I think there was something about porting it to Win32Forth recenty.
14:07:55 <zpg> *ly
14:08:01 <zpg> (a very early version that is)
14:08:07 <Ray_work> wait... JD's    : nfact   1 swap   for i * next ;    That can't possibly work. It only goest thru FOR 1 time
14:08:27 <Quartus> Ray_work, I replied. for/next are not standard words, they work differently in different Forths.
14:08:30 <Ray_work> doh! /me cant work
14:08:58 <Quartus> That returns 0 for everything in Gforth, for instance.
14:09:03 <slava> Quartus: will he reveal his definitions in a future blog entry?
14:09:03 <Ray_work> sorry, go back to sleep ya'll, i'm not driving. We didn't wreck. I just jerked the wheel real hard.
14:09:12 <Quartus> slava, no doubt. :)
14:09:27 <slava> Quartus: hey, did he post a complete colorforth hello world yet?
14:09:32 <slava> still waiting on auxilliary word #17?
14:09:40 <Quartus> slava, in bits and pieces strewn over several blog entries.
14:10:01 <Quartus> It can only display 5-letter-or-so words, in only the 48 symbols allowed in source, as far as I can tell.
14:10:09 <absentia> honestly, it's easier to write "hello world" in bf than it is to write it in colorforth.
14:10:16 <Quartus> Yes, it is.
14:10:38 <Ray_work> " My helloWorld is better then yours cuz it uses a kernel word. You don't know what you are doing... ZEEK HEIL WE WILL MEET THEM IN THE HINTERLANDS WE WILL..."
14:10:54 <Quartus> Hello World in bf is ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
14:11:01 <Ray_work> neat :)
14:11:07 <absentia> the this is, I actually understand that.
14:11:12 <Ray_work> you know what it is in P'' ?
14:11:20 <zpg> that's about the length of Ray's cf example.
14:11:28 <Ray_work> zpg you... :)
14:11:32 <Quartus> Ray_work, no. I don't much around much with toy languages.  I wrote a bf compiler in Forth awhile back, so I happened to have that on hand.
14:11:32 <Ray_work> mines shorter.
14:11:48 <zpg> sure it is.
14:11:49 <absentia> ya, I am going to write a bf interpreter and compiler in forth ...  :-) 
14:11:57 <zpg> compiler?
14:12:02 <absentia> that's a managable target -- only 8 statements, and most are single opcode.
14:12:16 <Ray_work> Quartus: brainFart is a subset of P'' , just adding the . and , words to P'' gives B****Fuck
14:12:23 <Quartus> Yes, it compiles.  bf: hi ++++++.... end-bf
14:12:34 <zpg> eww.
14:12:52 <zpg> i thought it was just a form of encryption.
14:13:01 <Quartus> no, it's an eight-opcode language.
14:13:19 <zpg> joyous.
14:13:19 <Ray_work> and P'' is six
14:13:30 <Ray_work> I wrote in cf a P'' editor .
14:13:33 <absentia> I also thought about making a virtual machine for it, and packing the bf opcodes into a nibble... then also thougt about extending bf with 10 registers via digits .. and then maybe 26 threads via CAP letters, and 26 vars[?] via small letters... both pre-emptive mt and the other type :-)
14:13:42 <Quartus> Here, let me flood the channel with a fibonacci routine:
14:13:42 <Quartus> bf: fib
14:13:43 <Quartus> >++++++++++>+>+[
14:13:43 <Quartus>     [+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[
14:13:43 <Quartus>         [-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
14:13:43 <Quartus>             [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>
14:13:44 <Quartus>     ]<<<
14:13:46 <Quartus> ]
14:13:48 <Quartus> end-bf
14:13:55 <Ray_work> or I should say it's a string text editor for colorforth writen in P''
14:14:52 <absentia> what I like about it is that the opscodes are single chars -- but then if you just turn a char into a macro -- you're right back at assembly... but overall, it's an interestingly small system that's so easy to implement...
14:15:15 <Quartus> I just let that run for a few seconds -- you have to manually halt it.  It got to 5605042352914733135977054235984175329081972797846347142062056069216302203343442302671901445786714383823775378215668056310042563607303080014020120414082
14:15:47 <absentia> I bounced off the bottom of theminimal language implementation via iota/jot and zot and ended up at bf -- something that I was able to grasp immediately...  interpreters, compilers.. even to make a packed opcode vm -- how to extend it... lots of little projects that wouldn't take months to complete.
14:16:10 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
14:16:16 <Quartus> lots of little utterly pointless projects from which you would learn and accomplish nothing, but yet.
14:16:23 <absentia> perhaps
14:16:31 <absentia> my learning is different than your learning.
14:16:41 <Quartus> Yeeeeeah.
14:17:05 <zpg> Quartus: was that a genuine return?
14:17:08 <Quartus> ues
14:17:10 <Quartus> yes even
14:17:13 <zpg> which Forth system?
14:17:17 <Quartus> Gforth. 
14:17:22 <zpg> 32-bit?
14:17:30 <Quartus> Gforth is.
14:17:51 <Quartus> That output is from the brainfuck fib routine I pasted above.
14:17:51 <zpg> Isn't there a 64-bit gforth around?
14:17:56 <Quartus> Could be.
14:18:12 <zpg> Quartus: did the bf run inside a gforth though?
14:18:16 <Quartus> Yes it did.
14:18:40 <zpg> How many cells does that number take up?
14:18:50 <zpg> (You can see where I'm going with this)
14:19:14 <Quartus> It's in chars, so however long it is divided by 4.
14:26:13 <Ray_work> 151 chars / 4 = 37.75
14:26:44 <zpg> right so 38
14:27:51 <Ray_work> Nice to know that that system can handle such a large number.
14:28:10 <zpg> That's what I'm stabbing at :)
14:28:11 <Quartus> Well, the bf fib routine is manipulating values in memory, it isn't using the stack.
14:28:37 <Ray_work> indeed.
14:39:20 <Quartus> A bf rendering of the mandelbrot set, using Gforth to compile and execute the bf:
14:39:21 <Quartus> http://nealbridges.com/images/bf-mandelbrot.png
14:39:56 <slava> oh my
14:39:59 <zpg> Zany. How long did that take?
14:40:59 <Quartus> hmm, couple of minutes.
14:41:58 <Quartus> The bf source:
14:41:59 <Quartus> http://forth.pastebin.ca/310621
14:42:50 <zpg> Elegant.
14:43:22 <Quartus> well, that's not formatted nicely. :)
14:44:04 * zpg smirks
14:44:54 <Quartus> The resulting Forth word is so large that SEE won't decompile it.
14:45:13 <absentia> yup. have that code too.
14:45:19 <absentia> there's some nicely commented bf code out there.
14:45:59 <Quartus> There is, but it's all foolish stuff.  You could perhaps compress and identify common sub-sequences, have the compiler factor them out.  There's some optimization that could be done, too.  
14:46:24 * absentia wonders if quartus willever say anything nice or positive to him.
14:46:40 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
14:46:41 <Quartus> I'm sorry, did I make some reference to you specifically there?
14:46:52 <Quartus> bf is the very *definition* of foolish stuff.
14:46:53 <absentia> when I look into bf, it's foolish -- yet you obviously have... I will assume that it was foolish for you too.  in your opinion.
14:47:19 <absentia> gee, I mention bf.. you say looking into bf is foolish.
14:47:25 <absentia> you odn't have to make a (direct) reference to me.
14:47:33 --- quit: grub_booter (Connection timed out)
14:47:43 <absentia> you remind me of a roommate I had in college... 
14:47:43 <Quartus> It is foolish.  It is foolish if you'd never heard of it.  It's foolish if you have.  You're not a factor in my evaluation.
14:47:47 <zpg> absentia: Quartus wrote a bf compiler, so either he's insulting himself _and_ you, or you're misreading it.
14:47:59 <absentia> zpg: not the point.
14:48:03 * zpg shrugs
14:48:05 <Quartus> It rather is the point.
14:48:18 --- join: grub_boote1 (n=charlie@d54C37EE9.access.telenet.be) joined #forth
14:48:52 <Quartus> I'm sorry if brainfuck is near and dear to you, and that somehow by categorizing it as foolishness, I'm throwing your whole sphere into chaos.
14:49:42 <grub_boote1> oh my - language wars
14:49:43 <Quartus> I wrote a tiny compiler for it to see if it anything turned up of pedagogic value, for the purposes of my book.  It didn't.
14:50:12 <zpg> hey grub_boote1 
14:50:16 <Quartus> grub_boote1, no wars.
14:50:16 <grub_boote1> brainfuck is.. amusing
14:50:26 --- nick: grub_boote1 -> grub_booter
14:50:31 <zpg> Quartus: oh, this is recent code?
14:50:41 <Quartus> zpg, maybe it was last month? Not sure.
14:50:59 <zpg> neat.
14:51:02 <grub_booter> zpg: damn
14:51:33 <Quartus> grub, bf-generated mandelbrot set, using a bf-compiler written in Forth:  http://nealbridges.com/images/bf-mandelbrot.png
14:51:35 <zpg> grub_booter: damn...?
14:52:08 <grub_booter> zpg: a language war sounded like fun is all :-)
14:52:16 <zpg> ah, i see.
14:52:19 <Quartus> oh. I'm the one who said 'no wars'.
14:53:05 <grub_booter> oh - my bad - then disappointed is repointed your way
14:53:13 <Quartus> bf falls into the 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' category, and I think it confuses far more than it edifies.
14:53:54 <grub_booter> dunno - like any good joke, it challenges the way we look at the world
14:54:01 <grub_booter> and that's never a bad thing
14:54:13 <Quartus> Hmm, only if your world didn't include a minimal-instruction-set computer, or you'd never read Turing.
14:54:22 <grub_booter> heh
14:54:50 <grub_booter> it does and i have (or at least some)
14:55:12 <Quartus> So nothing groundbreaking for you in bf, then.
14:55:27 <grub_booter> no, but that doesn't ruin the joke :-)
14:55:44 <Quartus> I don't see it as a joke, more as a trivial academic exercise.
14:56:16 <Quartus> There's 'fuck' in the name, of course, which is doubtless good for a smattering of sophmoric laughter. :)
14:57:57 <grub_booter> heh - and yeah, it is a trivial academic exercise - but for those outside the field of academia who 'got it' (because it showed something they hadn't thought of) i think it has merit (and should have raised a smile)
14:58:40 <grub_booter> it's like harry potter really - may not be the worlds greatest literature, but it's hooked a generation on reading
14:59:11 <grub_booter> :-)
15:00:17 <zpg> Well, I'd say the difference between the C, Forth and Smalltalk models makes for interesting material.
15:00:20 <Quartus> oh, maybe there's a housewife in Duluth who achieved enlightenment through BrainFuck, I can't say. :)
15:00:25 <zpg> Not to mention Lisp.
15:00:35 <zpg> Tantric Brainfuck?
15:00:40 <grub_booter> heh
15:01:29 <grub_booter> dunno - proves a point (that i guess was already proven by morse code and braille, but still...)
15:01:46 <zpg> What's the point you're thinking of?
15:02:26 <grub_booter> well, it's the same one that whitespace makes
15:02:48 <Quartus> That college students are insufficiently occupied?
15:02:49 <grub_booter> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ - another academic waste of time :-)
15:02:55 <grub_booter> heh
15:03:18 <grub_booter> if you've ever been, you'll take that as a given :-)
15:03:48 <grub_booter> occupation revolves around the student union and the snooker rooms
15:06:00 <grub_booter> anyway, yeah, it's just that everything simplifies when you break it down and that bigger meaning can be expressed from simple patterns (like shakespeare can be expressed in dots and dashes)
15:06:46 <zpg> I guess, but not to overstate the case -- that's what fascinates me about Forth, you strip away the complexity and with simple concepts you build up a flexible language.
15:06:58 <grub_booter> indeed
15:07:03 <zpg> Similarly with Lisp, but in Forth you can actually see the internals at work.
15:08:05 <Quartus> grub_booter, I buy that when the result is clearer, but with bf it isn't.  It looks like the marks left by a chicken with St. Vitus' dance.
15:08:33 <grub_booter> as does morse code
15:08:50 <Quartus> That looks more like a worm dancing calypso.
15:08:55 <grub_booter> heh
15:08:55 <zpg> Well, morse isn't primarly a written language either.
15:09:20 <grub_booter> tell that to the telegraphers of old...
15:09:22 <zpg> Pretty impressive what you can do with one tone.
15:09:27 <grub_booter> but yeah, point taken
15:09:40 <grub_booter> brainfuck and whitespace aren't supposed to be used
15:09:50 <Quartus> Morse is an audio code, and was necessary in its time.  Bf is a written programming language, and completely and utterly unnecessary.
15:09:56 <zpg> Sure, you have to encode and decode (whether you write the morse or translate in real time is up for grabs I guess). 
15:10:49 <Ray_work> bye, going home for the night. See ya from la Casa.
15:10:53 <Quartus> ciao ray
15:11:06 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:11:10 <grub_booter> sure it's unecessary - it's a joke - nothing about says 'hey, write the next os in me' :-)
15:11:49 <Quartus> I guess I don't see the 'joke' aspect.
15:13:33 <Quartus> bf doesn't strike me as humorous.  'whitespace' is more absurd, of course, if that's the kind of thing you mean.
15:14:58 <grub_booter>  Brainfuck is the ungodly creation of Urban Müller, whose goal was apparently to create a Turing-complete language for which he could write the smallest compiler ever, for the Amiga OS 2.0. His compiler was 240 bytes in size. (Though he improved upon this later -- he informed me at one point that he had managed to bring it under 200 bytes.)  I originally started playing around with Brainfuck because of my own interest in writing very smal
15:15:21 <grub_booter> that's very tongue in cheek
15:15:27 <Quartus> Ok. But he was trying to write a very small compiler, not generate laughter.
15:15:47 <grub_booter> ungodly creation and imp of the perverse?
15:16:10 <Quartus> Your code got cut off.
15:16:22 <Quartus> I saw no imp.
15:16:29 <grub_booter> ah
15:16:45 <grub_booter> what was the last 3 words?
15:17:03 <Quartus> anyway, characterizing somebody else's efforts in a humourous way doesn't mean that's how they were intended.  At any rate it's a moot point.  bf is the very model of a toy language.
15:17:10 <zpg> well, size aside, he called it Brainfuck.
15:20:32 <grub_booter> indeed and like all good jokes, it puts over a message - that you can break things down much further and simpler, and from many instances of the simpler, complex things can be done (which is of course, what all languages teach us - it's just that some languages tend to complex *cough* c++ *cough* while providing nothing that a simpler language cannot...)
15:21:19 <grub_booter> somewhere betwixt and between, there's a balance to be struck
15:24:06 <Quartus> Oh, bf is firmly on the side of the foolish.  It's not walking the line. :)
15:24:12 <grub_booter> heh
15:24:36 <grub_booter> then you see the humour after all :-D
15:24:48 <Quartus> Foolish and funny aren't always the same thing.
15:25:04 <grub_booter> heh - tell that to laurel and hardy
15:26:06 <grub_booter> or bjarne stroustroup
15:26:15 <grub_booter> oh wait
15:26:17 <Quartus> Well, if you want to get into a discussion of what funny is and isn't, Laurel and Hardy weren't funny because they were foolish.  The humour in their skits was based equally on pain, and their specific reactions to it and to each other.
15:26:55 <grub_booter> true - though there was an element of foolishness which was hard to ignore
15:27:09 <Quartus> They were always in contrived situations, but the situations by themselves weren't funny.
15:28:09 <grub_booter> no - they had to make mistakes, or be 'creative' (and either the plan or one or both of them was foolish)
15:28:45 <Quartus> Right. The situations without Laurel and Hardy would only be unfortunate.  It took their reactions to make them funny.
15:29:24 <grub_booter> well, to an extent - if they'd done it 'right' it wouldn't have set up the situation for their reaction
15:30:00 <Quartus> Being the agent of one's own misfortune is generally how these things run, but not always.  As often as not the situation they were in was imposed externally, at least at first.
15:30:45 <Quartus> In much the same way sitcoms are often based on somebody overhearing something and misinterpreting it.
15:31:06 <Quartus> Not funny in and of itself, but their whacky subsequent hijinks are meant to keep you watching through the commercials. :)
15:32:10 <grub_booter> it's difficult really - when you start analysing humour, it starts to break down - what one person finds funny, another could break down into a sequence of logical steps that would suggest 'if you thought that way originally, the situation isn't funny at all'
15:32:56 <ayrnieu> counterexample: http://permanent-monday.blogspot.com/
15:33:21 <Quartus> I don't know.  The differences in what's considered funny vary culturally, to be sure.  American humour is rooted in pain and excrement.  British humour runs toward the absurd (Monty Python) or the vulgar (Benny Hill).  Etc.
15:34:11 <zpg> Noting that Monty Python (and of course Spike Milligan) were considered unique at the time.
15:34:22 <grub_booter> ayrnieu: A Nerd in the Door? are you trying to tell us something?
15:34:24 <grub_booter> :-)
15:34:39 <ayrnieu> grub - I've no idea what you mean.
15:35:51 <grub_booter> ayrnieu: sorry - was suggesting that you were calling us 'nerds' because of the conversation
15:36:41 <ayrnieu> I'm not; that is an example of analysis of humor that doesn't kill the subject.
15:36:49 <grub_booter> ah :-)
15:36:52 <Quartus> Lines get crossed, though.  There's also the tradition of the American humourist: Mark Twain, Will Cuppy, Michael J. Nelson.
15:37:44 <ayrnieu> that also has great humor of its own, that doesn't class with any of the types of humor that have been offered in the discussion, so far.
15:38:04 <Quartus> And Benny Hill was not above the slipping-on-a-banana-peel humour.
15:39:03 <Quartus> In each of those two cultures, there's the intellectual and the non-intellectual humour, for lack of a better distinction.  Stephen Leacock vs. Carrot Top.
15:39:06 <grub_booter> benny hill was really not very funny - and the python's were at the best when they made social commentary (life of brian)
15:40:48 <grub_booter> but, humour is subjective - and there's a fine line between great wit and great insight
15:41:25 <zpg> Yeah, analysis of this stuff can only go so far.
15:41:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
15:41:59 <grub_booter> sometimes they blur so much, you really can't tell one from the other
15:42:14 <Quartus> To some degree.  There might be ongoing debate over whether Gallagher or CarrotTop is the better prop comic, or whether Twain or Cuppy make for better reading at the Rotary Club meeting.  But I doubt the debate is ever between Twain and Gallagher, or CarrotTop and Cuppy. :)
15:42:28 <grub_booter> heh
15:46:07 <Quartus> "Twain threw better melons!" "You philistine! Gallagher's decimation of societal norms knows no parallel!"
15:47:36 <Quartus> "Adam Sandler is a genius!"   Er, ok, nobody's ever said that.
15:48:26 <Quartus> Tell a lie.  Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 99 for "Adam Sandler is a genius". 
15:48:26 <grub_booter> heh - and see, that works on many levels - if you have a vague notion of who Twain might be, but none of gallagher, you might find it funny... if you know who both are, you might find it funny... if however, you know twain never threw a melon, you might take offence
15:48:45 <Quartus> I actually think "Twain threw better melons!" is really funny all by itself. :)
15:49:10 <grub_booter> and as a staunch defender of twain i say it's slander
15:49:11 <grub_booter> ;-)
15:50:03 <Quartus> All humour depends on you understanding the subject.  If you laugh just because it sounds like it should be funny, well, I imagine you get coloring books for Christmas a lot. :)
15:50:13 <grub_booter> heh
15:50:23 * grub_booter scribbles with his crayons
15:58:06 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
15:59:24 <Raystm2> Quartus: Mandelbrot set, pretty neat.
15:59:43 <grub_booter> yeah - i liked that one too
15:59:55 <Quartus> Like the dancing bear; it's not how well it dances, but that it dances at all. :)
16:01:54 <grub_booter> and to some, a dancing bear has no appeal regardless of its apparent ability or lack of it... does that make the bear less funny in the eyes of other people? :-)
16:02:10 <Quartus> The bear is never amused.
16:02:38 <grub_booter> the butt of the joke rarely is
16:03:49 * Raystm2 way behind and catching up...
16:03:52 <Quartus> But I'm not referring to dancing bears being funny.  The point is that it is hardly a detailed or beautiful rendering of the mandelbrot set, but remarkable nonetheless for its primitive origins.
16:04:51 <Raystm2> grub_booter: colorforth started out as a whitespace tag language, but changed from that and got a "smart" editor instead when it got an encoding during the prepackageing of source.
16:05:03 <grub_booter> and thus the serious/non-humourous point of bf is proven - it works (which is, in itself, quite funny)
16:05:22 <Quartus> Now, I've decided that colorForth is an elaborate joke.
16:05:39 <zpg> :)
16:06:08 <Quartus> Especially some of the new subtleties Ray was telling me about, transitioning from one colour to another causing different behaviours.
16:06:12 <grub_booter> heh - well, colorforth is like gallagher to me
16:06:12 <Quartus> That's comedy gold.
16:10:35 <grub_booter> well, it's 1am here - need to turn in
16:10:41 <Quartus> ciao!
16:10:49 <grub_booter> have fun and ttyl
16:10:55 <Quartus> ok!
16:15:47 <Raystm2> I've come to the conclusion that in it's 'original' form, the one hosted on Chuck's .com, It is a version stripped out of his OKADII, barely a boot loader added to the front, and then tossed into humanity to see who would or could make something out of it. In it's _best_ forms we have ENTH/FLUX, in it's worst we have the original. Inbetween, we have several one-offs of the original. If there is any merit to the system at all, it do
16:15:54 <Raystm2> oops long post there
16:16:02 <Raystm2> </rant>
16:16:07 <Quartus> cut off at 'all, it do'
16:17:02 <Raystm2> esn't appear to be found yet, or is hidden in details that are unnecessary or obscure.
16:17:10 <Quartus> Really?  I imagine a conversation -- "Hey, let's hack together a Forth and see how many suckers we pull.  Tell you what -- different colors will mean different things.  And the dictionary structure will cause name conflicts past four characters.  HA!"
16:17:22 <zpg> Heh.
16:17:31 <zpg> Raystm2: not really a rant, quite an interesting observation actually.
16:17:40 <Quartus> "Wait, wait.... a dedicated editor.  Yeah.  That's the ticket.  And a *remapped keyboard*!  Oh, hang on, I just shot Coke out of my nose."
16:17:56 <zpg> Raystm2: again beginning the regular question -- why not just scrap cf and spend more time in Standard and Retro?
16:18:17 <Quartus> "HEY!  Let's dump ASCII, and use something else... how about HUFFMAN ENCODED TEXT!  Oh jesus, I am in the wrong business!"
16:18:19 <zpg> Quartus: "And ... get this, we'll have them discussing how exactly to write Hello World ... all the way into 2007!"
16:18:20 <Raystm2> ohh and Quartus pass the splif would ya, the colors are starting to fade for me. 
16:19:02 <Quartus> Cripes.  Hello World is shorter in Intercal.
16:19:47 <Quartus> "And, and -- I'll tell them I seriously use this to write code with.  Dumbass sycophants'll flock to it."
16:20:13 <zpg> This must have been conjured up at Computer Cowboys.
16:20:25 * Raystm2 considers the site JokeForth, the TRUTH about colorForth by the very last hold-out to it's applacability.
16:20:27 <Quartus> Does it really sound so implausible?
16:20:50 <zpg> Not sure about elsewhere, but "Cowboy" has a distinct meaning when you're not directly referring to American cattle herders.
16:21:08 <Raystm2> every year the colorForthers gather in mid CA and get there pictures taken and followed home. 
16:21:10 <slava> colorforth's use of color and the custom editor is not a problem, i think
16:21:35 <slava> on the other hand, huffman encoding, odd character set, no support for strings...
16:21:42 <Quartus> You know Moore stormed out of an early ANS Forth standards meeting convinced that the result was going to go in a bizarre direction.  (It didn't, it cohered very closely with what he was after, but that's neither here nor there at this point.)
16:21:55 <Quartus> So for him to turn around and pull this joke isn't, to my mind, an extraordinary thing to imagine.
16:22:01 <Raystm2> slava, Chuck claims to never have needed that 'stuff'.
16:22:08 <slava> such as ascii?
16:22:48 <Raystm2> He used ascii on machines that had it, but not on _his_ chipsets.
16:23:02 <Quartus> Please note that the Pentium is not one of his chipsets.
16:23:20 <Raystm2> colorForth is supposed to be a vm on the pentium of his chipsets.
16:23:41 <Quartus> It's not a vm.
16:23:55 <slava> its an interactive assembler with built-in huffman encoder
16:23:59 <Raystm2> Pentium, and the entire line of those computers suppporting it being the cheapest set of hardware one can purchase.
16:24:11 <Quartus> s/built-in/mandatory
16:24:22 <Raystm2> ya okay, I agree, sorry , wrong venacular, you guys are definately right.
16:24:34 <zpg> Come to the light, Ray.
16:24:37 <zpg> Follow.
16:24:39 <Raystm2> hehe :)
16:24:42 <Raystm2> oh ya
16:24:53 <Raystm2> zpg you asked why don't i and I do.
16:24:56 <zpg> Perhaps I should become a priest.
16:24:58 <zpg> Raystm2: I did,
16:25:02 <Quartus> move away from the bearded doofus and the eccentric reclusive genius.  
16:25:10 <Raystm2> :)
16:25:50 <zpg> In the religious sweepstakes, I'm not sure which would be a more amusing vocation -- Orthodox Rabbi or Orthodox Priest.
16:25:51 <slava> rather i think chuck just put together a hack for his own use and jeff fox is perpetrating the joke
16:26:04 <zpg> Fox seems to like doing that.
16:26:15 <Raystm2> I do both. Look, somebody has to be the one that knows this stuff. I've studied it for near a decade, It taught me quite a bit about computing with every answer painfully acheived... < rant goes on much like that>
16:26:36 <Quartus> Fox has a serious hate on for Forth programmers.  Moore, I only know what he had to say when he returned to the Standards process, as there's a transcript of that.
16:26:50 <zpg> Raystm2: So, take that knowledge and relax with something more flexible.
16:27:17 <Quartus> Yes, put the floppy down and use the entire keyboard. :)
16:27:22 <Raystm2> zpg: I do. But i get singled out for this because I do it to. :)
16:27:37 <Quartus> Big, scary keyboard... not so scary after all.  See? :)
16:27:43 <zpg> heh heh.
16:27:45 <Raystm2> ooh you guys got trumped by lasagna. :)
16:28:01 <zpg> enjoy.
16:41:24 <JasonWoof> yay, php dude accepted my changes to the docs
16:41:36 <JasonWoof> my bug reporting energies were not all for naught
16:41:51 <Raystm2> well done! JasonWoof.
16:42:05 * JasonWoof bows
16:42:34 <JasonWoof> hopefully I can learn something from this
16:43:12 <JasonWoof> I'm trying to figure out how I could have been clearer in the first place
16:43:58 <JasonWoof> but I think the original problem is that the person on the other end didn't actually read what I said, and just responded to the title
16:44:04 <JasonWoof> and misunderstood that.
16:44:09 <JasonWoof> ahh well.
16:44:15 <JasonWoof> I left my mark.
16:44:17 <JasonWoof> and life goes on
16:53:15 <zpg> the visionary at work ==> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6239975.stm
16:53:53 <zpg> particularly vague, ==> "People want to do things with their content across multiple platforms," he said. / He said the hardware and content had been put in place "and the key thing missing is the connections". <==
16:55:18 <Quartus> unveiled were two tiny and unimportant utilities.
16:55:54 <zpg> important for the first digital decade no doubt.
16:56:40 <Quartus> Digital Decade.
16:56:45 <Quartus> What the hell does that mean?
16:56:52 <zpg> god knows.
16:57:04 <zpg> it's one of the vaguest things i've read yet.
16:57:08 <Raystm2> Heck there's been a digital decade for at least the last 5.
16:57:13 <zpg> the whole write-up seems to tear into it, amusingly.
16:57:34 <zpg> this dates back to the amusing vision of gates that the internet would never catch on. microsoft network all the way.
16:57:50 <Quartus> "There's gonna be stuff.  And there's gonna be computers.  And there's gonna be stuff on computers.  You can bet on that.  And it's gonna be digital stuff, and it's gonna go on for at least a decade."
16:58:07 <Quartus> "Look here, at this button, and this piece of string!  Digital Decade.  You heard it here first."
16:58:37 <Raystm2> "And people are gonna wanna get to there stuff". "Sometimes you go on vacation and you have to take some of your stuff with you".
16:58:55 * zpg chuckles
16:59:06 <Quartus> "Sometimes, other stuff happens while the first stuff is still going on, and you need to deal with the first stuff second, and the second stuff first, and we're gonna set you up for that, so don't you worry."
16:59:18 * Raystm2 channeling George Carlin, who, even tho he looks it. is NOT i repeat NOT dead.
16:59:18 <zpg> "With >connections<!"
16:59:31 <Raystm2> By James Burke.
16:59:36 <zpg> heh.
16:59:47 <zpg> There's some good Carlin footage on Google Video.
17:00:11 <Raystm2> Is the STUFF routine there?
17:00:22 <zpg> don't be silly
17:00:24 <zpg> STUFF is a protocol.
17:00:36 <zpg> oh, the Carlin, sorry.
17:00:36 <Quartus> Firesign Theater said it best: "Living in today's complex world of the future is like having bees living in your head."
17:00:38 <Raystm2> 7 WORDS now that's a routine. Played before the Judges. 
17:00:44 <zpg> I was in Gates mode still.
17:00:51 <zpg> Raystm2: I'm pretty sure it is, yes.
17:00:54 <Raystm2> I see. zpg :) hehe
17:01:09 <Raystm2> Quartus: I didn't know you were a Firesign fan.
17:01:20 <Quartus> Everybody is a Firesign fan; some folks just don't know it yet.
17:01:29 <zpg> No idea what you guys are talking about.
17:01:45 <Quartus> "I can tell from the pie on your tie that you're an American; well so am I!"
17:01:56 <zpg> What, Fireside is Dr. Seuss now?
17:02:02 <Raystm2> I'm only familure with a smattering.
17:02:13 <zpg> A smattering of Seuss or a smattering of Firesign?
17:02:30 <Raystm2> what ever that album was that had PORGY TIREBITER on it, we had that on the ship.
17:02:35 <Raystm2> Firesign. 
17:02:41 <Quartus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Firesign_Theatre
17:02:47 <Raystm2> tho I did hear some at a collage.
17:03:07 <zpg> Ah, Good influenced.
17:03:10 <zpg> erm
17:03:12 <zpg> Goon* influenced.
17:03:32 <Quartus> well, influenced, yes. But different.
17:03:59 <zpg> Neat. I'll keep an ear out for some.
17:04:22 <Raystm2> Ooooh Nick Danger. I forgot about that. :)
17:04:24 <Quartus> "How Can You Be in Two Places at Once When You're Not Anywhere at All"
17:04:39 <zpg> Anyone here -- and this is a stretch, not to mention subject change -- ever dabble in text adventures / IF these days?
17:04:41 <Raystm2> They have a million of them, man.
17:04:41 <Quartus> The Adventures of Nick Danger, Third Eye.
17:04:58 <Quartus> zpg, I set about writing one three years ago; it's unfinished.
17:05:48 <Raystm2> I haven't touched a Text adventure since some kinda star trek thing in HS, about 26 years.
17:05:48 <zpg> Quartus: I take it you saw my lisp project a while back then? Anyway, I thought I'd mention that Montfort's book on IF, "Twisty Little Passages" is pretty interesting. Blame 1am thought association for bringing this up now.
17:06:04 <Quartus> I heard about the book.  Haven't seen it.
17:06:18 <Quartus> I recall your Lisp code.
17:06:21 <zpg> MIT Press I believe. He discusses IF in terms of the Riddle.
17:06:34 <Raystm2> Neat idea, that.
17:06:41 <zpg> Yeah, it is rather. He's a nice chap too, which helps.
17:06:46 <Quartus> What's the 'Riddle'? A Jungian archetype? :)
17:06:53 <zpg> But of course.
17:07:06 <Quartus> Well, if you capitalize it, it Must Be Important.
17:07:11 <zpg> Very Important.
17:07:39 <zpg> I'm not quite sure where that extra shift came from.
17:07:57 <zpg> Anyway, for some reason I decided to bring that up.
17:08:41 <zpg> Quartus: i'm sure i asked this before, but which language were you implementing your text adventure in?
17:09:02 <Quartus> Inform.  I don't like it; it's largely the reason I haven't finished.
17:09:15 <zpg> Ditto. Largely the reason I wrote ezil.
17:09:24 <Raystm2> Because, we need to go out and find these favorite things like Firesign theater and Python and what have you and build and intelligent Interactive Fiction that uses these and the Jungian Riddle.
17:09:37 <Quartus> Didn't the Jungian Batman fight him?
17:09:44 <Quartus> Oh sorry.  The Jungian Batma.
17:09:48 <zpg> God that was a bad film.
17:09:53 <Raystm2> At the Sizzler in the parking lot.
17:11:31 <Raystm2> The interactive fiction that has to be backed up by the player doing plent of online research of fun, funny, odd, interesting ( to atleast someone) facts, and figures. 
17:12:07 <Quartus> I don't know.  Playability is big.  There were any number of games that you couldn't play through.  You had to save, try arbitrary combinations, and repeat, as there wasn't sufficient info to actually figure them out.
17:12:10 <Raystm2> A multi-cultuREAL thing.
17:12:42 <Raystm2> I think MYST was like that.
17:13:20 <Raystm2> I enjoyed the MYST, but I always eventually cheated cuz for cripesakes, I gotta life, ya know?
17:13:57 <Quartus> Yeah. I don't appreciate that kind of game.
17:14:19 <Raystm2> That one and the DOOM series I ended up likeing the maze more then the game.
17:14:59 <Raystm2> But I did play nearly all of the commercial versions and a few knockoffs.
17:15:11 <zpg> I'm the opposite, Doom is one of the very few computer games I enjoyed; both for its ingenuity and playability. Myst always irked me.
17:15:48 <zpg> Graham Nelson drafted quite a good guide to IF. Things like, it's irritating to write in unexpected deaths, etc.
17:16:02 <Raystm2> Ya, Doom. I had to make a moral choise between the entire DOOM series or Quartus Forth. 
17:16:10 <zpg> moral?
17:16:11 <Raystm2> That was a tough one. 
17:16:13 <Quartus> heh
17:16:22 <Quartus> Fewer swastikas in Quartus Forth.
17:16:26 * zpg  chuckles
17:16:28 <Quartus> Half as many monsters.
17:16:39 <zpg> "Fewer"
17:16:43 <zpg> :)
17:17:01 <zpg> I'll be minding my business one day, writing some arbitary piece of code when all of a sudden, the Nuremberg function is triggered.
17:17:02 <Raystm2> It came down to the day that Quartus said, "Well, punk, where's your milk money" no he never said that but from conversations I gleened that it wouldn't hurt his situation. :)
17:17:11 <Raystm2> hehe :)
17:17:21 <Quartus> True.  :)
17:17:24 <Raystm2> yikes haha :)
17:18:09 <Raystm2> So now I'm saving for the enire doom series, which Quartus Forth very well could help me buy.
17:18:18 <Raystm2> Potential exists.
17:18:20 <Quartus> Yes. Write and sell.  Repeat.
17:18:21 <zpg> I checked out Meretzsky's Planetfall recently, written c. 1983 I think. Really enjoyable, old Infocom game. I think he wrote that one just before Hitchhiker's Guide with Doug Adams.
17:18:43 <Quartus> I played PlanetFall when it first came out.
17:19:00 <zpg> Do recall liking it?
17:19:20 <Quartus> Yes, until it also got to an arbitrary point where you had to save, try random things, reload, etc.
17:19:32 <zpg> Yeah, the "screw this where's the walkthrough" section.
17:19:42 <Raystm2> hehe. :)
17:19:53 <Quartus> I got about halfway through reactivating the planet's infrastructure and gave up.
17:19:58 * Raystm2 is relieved to find that he's not alone.
17:20:09 <zpg> I think I managed without, though the patience was tried. That was an example of a game that contained far less arbitrary annoyances than most IF for its time.
17:20:10 <Quartus> I can't recall if I ever completed it, either with a walkthrough or without.
17:20:29 <Raystm2> You know, you like to consider yourself intelligent...
17:20:54 <zpg> Nelson's Curses is rather fun, rather English too.
17:21:05 <zpg> I only got about 20% of the way through though.
17:21:09 <Quartus> Never heard of that one.
17:21:16 <zpg> It's why Inform exists.
17:21:52 <zpg> He began writing his own piece of IF in C I believe, then modularised the original game code, Inform 1 was born, etc.
17:22:24 <zpg> There's still some Curses code kicking about in the Inform library.
17:22:37 <zpg> http://wurb.com/if/game/55
17:22:51 <Quartus> oh. I don't really recall why I didn't like Inform; it seemed to be the most mature of its ilk at the time, though.
17:23:07 <zpg> I do, I hated the syntax.
17:23:16 <Quartus> I only faintly recall it.  I could dig up my project files.
17:23:29 <zpg> Inform was born because TADS was commercial. TADS is free these days, and TADS 3 is pretty impressive from what I've heard.
17:23:42 <zpg> Inform 7 is now based around Natural Language.
17:24:02 <zpg> i.e. "#forth is a room. In #forth is a desk." will compile in Inform 7
17:24:15 <zpg> (if #'s are allowed in names that is.)
17:25:09 <Raystm2> I think it's crc that's interested in this stuff as well.
17:25:16 <Raystm2> were is crc?
17:26:19 <Raystm2> found him, I think. 
17:27:20 <Raystm2> Neat to write a forth that would build IF in a natural language. 
17:27:59 <Raystm2> I suppose some words are parsing. Is that dangerous for the system?
17:29:57 <zpg> Writing an IF language from scratch is quite a hassle if you want to get decent functionality.
17:30:27 <zpg> This is discussed relatively frequently in the IF community, usually when someone comes along and says "can I write IF in <insert language here>"
17:31:16 <Raystm2> I can appreciate that.
17:31:42 <zpg> My project was more of a meta-language. You can write IF in (Emacs) Lisp, but it translates to Inform.
17:32:06 <Raystm2> Neat.
17:32:13 <Quartus> what was the name of that tinkertoy compiler from a year or so ago that purported to let you write software in regular English?
17:32:32 <zpg> Contains an IF-like utility for creating stuff too -- http://ezil.sourceforge.net/screenshots/interaction-shots/interaction-1.jpg
17:32:43 <Quartus> The website was horrid, it said you could download a demo but went around in circles.  I eventually saw the demo source, and it was heavily stilted English.
17:32:56 <zpg> Quartus: haven't come across that.
17:33:41 <Raystm2> Ya, Quartus, I don't remember seeing that one.
17:33:50 <Quartus> http://www.osmosian.com/
17:35:14 <zpg> My biggest problem with Inform 7 was that it tried to wrap the exercise of programming in a subset of English such that (i) you thought you could just write in English, but inevitably came across odd syntax errors and (ii) it made control structures etc. needlessly verbose. My approach was simply to include some basic ways of separating writing narrative and writing logic then bringing the two together.
17:35:45 <zpg> This osmosian stuff looks a bit like AppleScript
17:36:11 <Quartus> I'll see if I can re-locate the sample app.
17:37:18 <zpg> simple I7 example -- http://inform-fiction.org/I7/ex164.html#e164
17:41:39 <Quartus> ok, here's 99 beers in 'osmosian': http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
17:42:39 <zpg> Ouch.
17:42:44 * Raystm2 having no IF and not much experiance with it is at the Firesign site http://www.firesigntheatre.com/ and Yes, I think we are all bozos on this bus.
17:42:45 <zpg> Looks a little I7ish actually
17:43:02 <zpg> But less precise.
17:45:25 <Quartus> neat site, rayh
17:45:44 <Raystm2> "looks like the comments, pro and con, have all been written in english"  No really I got a bit of a giggle on that one.
17:46:14 <Raystm2> not firesign but the Example English like programming thingy.
17:46:34 <zpg> i think we followed you Raystm2 :)
17:46:37 <Quartus> Put 5 into a number.
17:46:51 <Quartus> Just read that a few times. :)
17:46:57 <zpg> yeah it makes no sense.
17:47:00 <Raystm2> you have to be carefull when you talk like a Firesign skit as part of your natural way. You _have_ to explain. :)
17:47:09 <Quartus> Read me, Doctor Memory!
17:47:24 <zpg> inform 7 has something like "stones is a number. stones is 1"
17:47:35 <zpg> or perhaps "is a variable"
17:47:36 <zpg> let me check
17:48:46 <zpg> http://inform-fiction.org/I7/doc111.html
17:49:30 <Raystm2> I love a chat that requires one to do his own homework. :)
17:49:57 <Quartus> "Problem. You wrote 'change blue to mauve' , but 'blue' is not something which can ever change."   What a beautiful thing to say.
17:50:13 <Raystm2> WAIT what if we just started an IRCIFchat and just treated eachother like that. hmmm?
17:50:41 <zpg> Quartus: yeah, some humour drops out of this system.
17:50:51 <zpg> > tell ray to do his homework
17:50:54 <zpg> * Ray ignores you
17:51:18 <Quartus> > exit           You have 79 points from a possible total of 27,621.  Do you really want to quit?
17:51:22 <zpg> Quartus: i can't find a direct "x = 3" example
17:51:30 <zpg> the manual's a tad hard to use.
17:51:49 <Quartus> zpg, you wrote "x = 3", but 'x' is not something which can ever change.
17:52:33 <zpg> :)
17:53:05 <Raystm2> Quartus you wrote "zpg, you wrote "x = 3", but 'x' is not something which can ever change." but 'zpg' is not something which can ever change.
17:53:17 <zpg> Raystm2 has mastered I7 recursion.
17:53:35 <zpg> I'll dig out an old I7 test for the answer to our query.
17:53:37 <Quartus> You can change blue to mauve, but don't ever change the little things I love about you.
17:53:50 * zpg chuckles
17:54:23 <Quartus> I think I'll skip that one.
17:55:14 <Raystm2> Ya, that's best, ( cast: men: all ) Harummph hmm, hmm,. 
17:55:26 <Quartus> I mean the I7 language.  Excessive verbosity.
17:55:35 <zpg> Agreed 100%
17:55:51 <zpg> And still I can't find a simple x=3 / print x
17:55:53 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth
17:55:58 <zpg> or x = 3 x = x + 1 print x
17:56:08 <zpg> you know, the complex tasks facing programmers.
17:56:17 <zpg> almost as complex as hello world.
17:56:21 * zpg nudges ray
17:57:05 * Raystm2 gets a complexion.
17:57:12 <zpg> heh.
17:58:13 <zpg> Quartus: the language -- as i said earlier -- seems to make simple things difficult (or at least verbose) and confuse matters by having an ambiguous syntax.
17:58:25 <zpg> Having said all that, it's a pretty neat experiment.
17:58:29 <absentia> .win grow 5
17:59:41 <Raystm2> If you had that, for the really tight niggly descriptions, and then a forth like way to substitute tokenNames for said descriptions... 
18:00:04 <zpg> You can inline Inform 6, which is semi-C-like.
18:00:15 <zpg> Inform 7 just translates to Inform 6 anyway.
18:00:43 <zpg> But has a whole rule-layer, written in Inform 7, before it gets to I6 making life more difficult.
18:01:13 <Raystm2> I see.
18:03:19 <zpg> Anyway, </IF>
18:07:55 --- join: snoopy_1711 (n=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-133-004.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
18:08:44 <Raystm2> sorry, I was distracted by http://ia301208.us.archive.org/3/items/VirtualWorldStudios/kwebpromovr.mov
18:10:56 <Raystm2> build IF around that.
18:15:30 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
18:15:31 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42
19:41:21 <Raystm2> Watched another Burke. Me, doing my homeBurke. 
20:06:22 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
21:36:06 <Quartus> gah. Tired.  Any life out there?
21:36:57 <slava> me
21:37:04 <Quartus> factoring?
21:37:23 <slava> yeah, doing some optimization
21:37:34 <Quartus> beats the hell out of pessimization, I say. :)
21:37:51 <slava> i see drake is on the defensive again.
21:38:09 <slava> he needs to win.
21:38:11 <Quartus> Highly offensive, if you ask me.  I've killfiled him.
21:38:53 <Quartus> Werty's starting to seem moderate.
21:41:56 <Quartus> Mrs Liz :
21:41:57 <Quartus>    Sorry Liz , you gotta find another job , cause theres no $$ in
21:41:57 <Quartus>     explaining how difficult   Swift Forth is ....
21:41:57 <Quartus> "
21:44:21 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke")
21:45:09 <Quartus> slava, meant to ask earlier -- does the 8080 emulator code build a bitmap that it then asks OpenGL to draw?
21:45:19 <slava> yes
21:45:40 <slava> i think, writes to video ram areas are intercepted and they modify the bitmap directly
21:45:42 <slava> but i don't recall
21:45:47 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth
21:45:49 <Quartus> straightforward.
21:46:00 <slava> i've never written an emulator before, but i imagine that's how its done.
21:46:05 <slava> i recall the author mentioning this.
21:46:16 <slava> there's no sound, right now.
21:46:34 <Quartus> I imagine accurate sound is annoying to emulate.
21:46:42 <slava> yes.
21:46:52 <slava> it would probably use a lot of cpu power.
21:47:02 <Quartus> Though in those boxes I think square waves were the big deal.
21:47:06 <slava> right now factor is fast enough to run the emulator several order of magnitudes faster than the original hardware.
21:47:58 <slava> when you play the game, instructions are executed in real time for accurate timing loops
21:48:10 <slava> but there's a way to run it without that
21:48:17 <Quartus> if you're very quick on the joystick :)
21:49:16 --- quit: nighty_ (Client Quit)
22:59:06 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
23:21:11 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:57:35 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed")
23:58:47 <ayrnieu> aye, I still like Inform 6 as an IF language.  Inform 7 is sort of bizarre and unnecessary, and anyway less portable than I'd prefer.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.01.08