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07:55:42 <Ray_work> hi zpg :)
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07:57:37 <ASau> Good evening!
07:59:17 <absentia> good morning
08:02:50 <zpg> Hi all.
08:02:52 <Ray_work> Good day. :)
08:02:59 <zpg> Same to you Ray.
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08:19:05 <ASau> Guten Abend, virl.
08:19:19 <ASau> Wie gehts?
08:23:56 <virl> derweil noch gut
08:25:50 <zpg> gruss gott virl, ASau 
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08:50:53 <Quartus> Hey.
08:51:06 <zpg> hi Quartus, how's it going?
08:51:30 <Quartus> not too badly. You?
08:52:08 <zpg> v. well thanks.
08:52:39 <zpg> have you been MST3King some more?
08:53:00 <Quartus> Still packaging this large object for shipping, so I guess yes. :)
08:53:32 <zpg> must be a pretty hefty fellow. ~ 15 hours of packing so far.
08:54:35 <virl> does he sands a car or what?
08:55:03 <Quartus> Drake's still at it, I see.
08:55:13 <Quartus> zpg, there was a non-packing interval. :)
08:55:22 * zpg chuckles
08:55:26 <zpg> You jest?
08:55:43 <Quartus> about what, Drake? 
08:58:27 <zpg> there being a non-packing interval.
08:58:41 <zpg> but you can apply it to the drake phenomenon too :)
08:59:16 <Quartus> I thought he had realized his error, but no, he was just taking several days to write another petulant reply.
08:59:30 <zpg> link?
09:01:54 <Quartus> one sec
09:02:10 <Quartus> I read usenet with a newsreader, I have to trundle over to google groups to get a link
09:03:23 <zpg> oh sorry, didn't realise.
09:03:40 <Quartus> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/2470f09d22e726c4
09:05:49 <absentia> I adhere to single entry, single exit.. but it does lead to some strangeness... and other people like to do multiple exits...
09:06:46 <Quartus> Drake, having been told by a number of people that the AND technique he's railing against is just fine, has now gone on to try and confuse the issue with multiple-exits, and to attack Elizabeth. 
09:07:50 <zpg> yeah, he's upped the haughtiness too.
09:08:17 <absentia> ah
09:08:38 <absentia> perhaps someone should post the story of mel.
09:08:44 <zpg> absentia: as Quartus notes, this wasn't about entry/exit points.
09:08:49 <absentia> may cause him to explode?
09:08:53 <zpg> mel?
09:09:44 <zpg> Quartus: I think everyone would do well to let Drake talk to Drake from now on.
09:09:51 <Quartus> oh yes.
09:11:46 <Quartus> Perhaps you can try what he berates Liz for.  This article: http://www.forth.org/svfig/Len/bits.htm  has no attribution.  He tells her to go here: http://www.forth.org/svfig/contacts.html to find out who wrote it.
09:11:48 <Quartus> Give that a try.
09:12:04 <zpg> looking.
09:12:32 * zpg looks dumbfounded
09:12:46 <Ray_work> ( whining) Guyyyyyss, wait uuuuuuuuuppppp!. 
09:12:49 * Ray_work so far behind.
09:12:59 <absentia> http://jargon.watson-net.com/section.asp?f=story-of-mel.html
09:13:03 <Ray_work> hi Quartus :)
09:13:21 <Quartus> hey Ray
09:13:36 <zpg> you can find attribution easily enough though ==> Leonard Morgenstern
09:13:43 <Quartus> where did you find it?
09:14:02 <zpg> click the "Home" in the penultimate section, prior to the code listing.
09:14:02 <absentia> I'll call him Mel,
09:14:03 <absentia> because that was his name.
09:14:08 <zpg> just below "First Presented at North Bay Forth Interest Group, September 9, 1989."
09:14:34 <Quartus> zpg, I missed that. So did Drake.
09:14:40 * zpg nods
09:15:30 <zpg> absentia: ah.
09:15:40 <Quartus> At any rate, it's fairly hilarious.  He rails against my use of AND, points at a document for support that does not support what he's saying, tells Elizabeth to 'take it up' with the author of that document, and then points her in the wrong place to determine the author of the document so she can do that.
09:15:59 <zpg> Very much so.
09:16:01 <Quartus> So she can write the author and tell him there's a nutter on c.l.f. who misread his document.
09:17:00 <Quartus> A document at least 10 years old.
09:17:29 <zpg> He seems to recognise that he's not very knowledgable yet acts the priest, pointing at documentation to support his iopinion (without noticing he fails to do just that). I could forgive that I guess, but he's just plain rude.
09:18:06 <Quartus> yeah, the rude makes it pretty annoying.
09:18:14 <Ray_work> hmm.
09:18:44 <zpg> The level of arrogance show to people like Rather who are trying to take up the point seriously is astounding. e.g., "That's simply YOUR opinion, nothing more nothing less" &c.
09:19:06 <zpg> I believe 'jerk' is applicable here.
09:19:30 <Quartus> Fits.
09:20:20 <zpg> Anyway, perhaps we should move away from these pleasantries :)
09:21:04 <zpg> "Finally, a classic, thanks to Mike Perry --  : decompose ( -- )   rot rot rot ;"
09:21:06 <zpg> heh
09:21:33 <Ray_work> Not to mention, she's capable of hireing people she needs for jobs in the language. Way to present one-self.
09:21:58 <Ray_work> ya, that one is good. 
09:22:51 <Ray_work> there is also... : -ro ro ro ;  \ your boat, gently down the stream.
09:23:36 <zpg> well you'd have to define "ro"
09:23:47 <Ray_work> doh!
09:24:14 <Ray_work> that was colorforth version, a one off of rot. doh! Guess you had to be there.
09:24:21 <Quartus> John Drake is a "MS-Data Manager" at Meharry Medical College, which doesn't sound like it involves much programming, so he may not care that he's shooting off his mouth.
09:24:46 <zpg> Incidentally, aside from the SVFIG, Fox and Moore stuff on google video, and the Stack Machines presentation, does anyone know of good online videos relevant to Forth? 
09:25:00 <Quartus> That's in Nashville.
09:25:02 <zpg> Quartus: J. Doty, J. Drake. Who next?
09:25:27 <Quartus> J. Fox.  J. Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt.
09:25:37 <zpg> heh.
09:26:12 <Quartus> I haven't looked for videos on forth, zpg. Don't know.  It'd surprise me if there's much.
09:26:22 <Ray_work> His name is my name too?!?!
09:26:41 <Quartus> :)
09:26:42 <zpg> Ray_work: Jingleheimer?
09:26:42 <Ray_work> Let us start the video Forth series.
09:27:02 <Quartus> Making a video is no different than preparing and giving a lecture, which is a whole bunch of work if you want to do it well.
09:27:04 <Ray_work> zpg part of the song.
09:27:10 <zpg> Quartus: the fig stuff isn't bad. Rible discussing Sudoku, Moore chatting about colorForth and OKAD
09:27:34 <zpg> Ray_work: i'm clearly missing the reference here.
09:27:39 <Ray_work> yes. :)
09:28:10 <ASau> I don't like "one entry, one exit" principle.
09:28:24 <Ray_work> http://www.backyardgardener.com/loowit/song/song48.html  <-- zpg quickie
09:28:26 <ASau> It leads to passing flags and other inefficient things.
09:28:30 <Quartus> zpg, http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/johnjacob.html
09:29:16 <Ray_work> ya my link didn't have the right lines :(
09:29:36 <zpg> Ah, scouts.
09:30:05 <ASau> There're the same issues as in flags vs. exceptions/non-local exits.
09:30:21 <Quartus> absentia, I know the story of Mel.  I don't promote 'bad programming techniques', as Drake would have it.  There are tricks, and techniques, that are both difficult, obfuscated, and non-portable.  The technique he's getting bent about is none of those.
09:31:11 <zpg> absentia: how's the forth coming along?
09:32:25 <Ray_work> I thought that we avoided ESR as a group? Am I wrong in this? Am I predjudice for no good reason?
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09:33:12 <Quartus> Tsk tsk. Drake posts all those messages from work!
09:33:21 <zpg> heh
09:36:08 <Quartus> Ray_work, I don't think ESR wrote that story.
09:45:03 <Ray_work> no esr didn't write it but he features it as part of Jargon file.
09:45:33 <zpg> incidentally, i just remembered that i registered for a macforth demo, but never got my download.
09:45:53 <zpg> probably indicative of the system being a tad defunct.
09:46:49 <Quartus> I don't know. Try again.
09:47:23 <zpg> could do. i think they suggested e-mailing if the automated response didn't occur.
09:51:40 <zpg> e-mailed. I know vatic still uses MacForth from time to time.
09:56:46 <virl> forth videos, except those chuck M. videos with incredible bad quality? well, not that I know.
09:57:23 <zpg> the Moore videos aren't too bad quality wise.
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10:02:19 <zpg> I see that there's a Lua port for the Palm, although the main page(s) seem to be deprecated.
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10:07:42 <I440r> did i just see jeff fox slap werty up side the head ?
10:07:53 <zpg> neat --> http://www.tutorials-blog.com/forth/gforth-connects/
10:09:41 <Quartus> I440r, you saw Fox trumpet his own causes while giving attention to a troll.
10:12:12 <zpg> this looks good too, http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/crenshaw/tiny.html, but Marcel has all the examples in iForth; grr.
10:15:47 <Quartus> 99.9% of which are arbitrary renamings of Standard words.  That irks the hell out of me.
10:16:24 <zpg> He mentioned that there's a(n) (anti-)portability layer somewhere for parsing iForth in Standard.
10:16:42 <zpg> Which is all topsy turvy if you ask me, but useful nonetheless.
10:16:47 <zpg> I can't see it on his site.
10:16:48 <Quartus> To add his arbitrary renamings to a Standard system.
10:17:38 <zpg> Exactly. Far from desirable, but would allow the running of his code without iForth.
10:17:45 <zpg> (which, price aside, I can't run here anyway)
10:17:50 <Quartus> If he's covered enough ground.
10:18:14 <zpg> Yeah. The Crenshaw stuff looks good though. Perhaps I'll work through it and just ANSify his iForth (which really shouldn't have been necessary)
10:19:06 <Quartus> I looked at it at one point.  It walks you through a rough process of writing a parser & code generator.
10:19:43 <zpg> Yeah, something that I've never really payed close mind to.
10:19:55 <zpg> I like the idea of it being translated into Forth too.
10:19:58 <Quartus> I have made Standard a BNF module for Forth that lets you do more, and quicker.
10:20:35 <zpg> online?
10:21:18 <Quartus> Not yet.  Soon I hope.  My point is that Forth itself makes a great language for implementing other languages.  Crenshaw's stuff is for taking something far less powerful than Forth, and writing a parser & generator in it.
10:21:23 <Quartus> Forth is already a parser and generator.
10:21:26 <zpg> incidentally, that reminds me -- instead of all this java forth malarky, why doesn't someone connect gforth, say, to a java-based interface? you'd have a full ANS forth at your disposal, via a webpage.
10:21:31 <absentia> I have a lisp in < 500 lines... in forth
10:21:41 <absentia> the code looks well written -- so I want to study it (more)
10:21:47 <zpg> where from?
10:21:51 <zpg> i think i've seen that one
10:21:56 <zpg> '( ... ) to declare a list.
10:22:22 <absentia> lisp.fs --> \ Copyright (C) 1999 Mark Probst
10:22:30 <absentia> I couldn't figure out how to use it
10:22:41 <zpg> Quartus: yeah i take your point. the beauty of Forth is its elegant simplification of parse/generator stuff.
10:22:51 <absentia> I loaded it in, could run "lisp" ... but then (x y) -- I couldn't see it call x... just got an error -- 
10:23:12 <absentia> I also have lisp in awk ... fairly short ... etc.
10:23:14 <zpg> from here? http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/~schani/lispreader/index.html
10:23:18 <Quartus> So porting the Crenshaw stuff to Forth is to re-write, in Forth, what Forth makes unnecessary, for the purpose of illustrating how to compile a non-Forth language.
10:24:03 <zpg> Quartus: yep, it's looking that way -- I haven't looked at what Crenshaw's doing closely enough.
10:24:30 <zpg> absentia: do you have a single file or did you download a tarball?
10:24:49 <absentia> lisp.fs?  I think it's a single file.
10:25:58 <Quartus> If you do want to implement a typical parser & generator, something like my BNF module is ideal.  With it, you're effectively writing executable BNF descriptoins.
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10:28:42 * Ray_work likes BNF
10:28:52 <zpg> Quartus: that sound pretty swish.
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10:29:11 <Quartus> It certainly uses Forth's strengths in a way Crenshaw knew nothing of.
10:29:42 <zpg> Quartus: yeah; of course, Crenshaw's original documents were, as you say, implemented in a more rigid language.
10:29:46 <zpg> I think it was pascal...
10:29:56 <Quartus> and it's implementing some tiny brain-dead version of pascal.
10:30:07 <zpg> heh
10:30:16 <Quartus> With single-character keywords, because otherwise the code would have been clouded by the parsing.
10:30:26 <Ray_work> yikes.
10:30:37 <zpg> ugh
10:37:12 <zpg> absentia: this now works ==>
10:37:14 <zpg> s" 1" lisp-load-from-string  ok
10:37:14 <zpg> .s <1> 1050752  ok
10:37:14 <zpg> lisp-display 1  ok
10:37:26 <absentia> ok
10:37:37 <absentia> there's that little example file.
10:37:38 <absentia> etc
10:38:19 <zpg> s" (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))" lisp-load-from-string  ok
10:38:19 <zpg> lisp-display ( 1  2  ) ok
10:38:38 <absentia> ah, you have to pack it
10:38:39 <absentia> I get it
10:38:50 <zpg> but unfortunately, (cons 1 2) doesn't work.
10:39:38 <zpg> and even   s" (car '(1 2))" lisp-load-from-string   seems to break.
10:39:55 <zpg> i don't think it's really worth dwelling on this code.
10:40:06 <absentia> ok
10:40:09 <absentia> toobad.
10:40:29 <zpg> there are a vat of lisp-in-forth examples.
10:40:42 <absentia> really? can you point me to a few -- or one that actually works ?
10:40:44 <zpg> the one i was thinking of defines forth words like '( 
10:40:50 <zpg> hang on
10:40:51 <absentia> or -- scheme in forth -- scheme should be easier.
10:40:54 <absentia> k
10:41:20 <ASau> Forth-Scheme interconnection is interesting.
10:42:03 <zpg> i seem to have deleted the ones i'm thinking of
10:42:16 <absentia> :-< bah
10:42:59 <zpg> no worries, found an e-mail backup.
10:43:13 <zpg> absentia: if you want to write lisp, though, use a lisp terp.
10:44:12 <absentia> lisp terp?
10:44:36 <zpg> interpreter, system.
10:44:52 <zpg> absentia: this code turns out to be iForth; vatic sent it to me a while back.
10:45:33 <zpg> here's a kForth variation ftp://ccreweb.org/software/kforth/examples/lists.4th
10:46:24 <absentia> no ans ?
10:46:44 <Quartus> I second that, if you want to write Lisp, use a Lisp.
10:47:27 <absentia> still much better -- more documentation
10:47:50 <zpg> absentia: I faintly recall a kForth module that can be included in a Standard system to provide all these damned ?allot's etc.
10:47:55 <absentia> I don't want to write lisp any more than I want to wite forth...
10:48:01 <absentia> k
10:48:19 <Quartus> absentia, then I can point out two channels you're mistakenly chatting in. :)
10:48:21 <zpg> that sounds positive.
10:48:54 <zpg> Quartus: aren't you've invested your time in ol' absentia's non-interests?
10:49:00 <zpg> *aren't you glad you've
10:49:24 <Quartus> It's always a treat.
10:50:05 <zpg> absentia: on the kForth front, I believe I tried out that dangfangled strek game that Myneni wrote.
10:50:15 <zpg> there might have been a portability layer in there.
10:50:33 <absentia> I think I need to express my thoughts in rpn for you guys
10:50:48 <Quartus> Don't be rude.
10:50:51 <zpg> absentia: surprisingly, we understand english.
10:50:51 <absentia> "write x" -- means "code an implementation of x"  not that I don't want to necessarily use "x" ...
10:51:11 <Quartus> No, 'implementing x' means 'coding an implementation of x'.
10:51:36 <Quartus> 'writing Forth' is used exactly the same way as 'writing English' or 'writing French'.
10:51:50 <zpg> absentia: fair enough if that's what you meant. but note that two of us independently understood you as saying "i can't be fucked with forth or lisp"
10:51:59 <absentia> writing "a" forth... writing "a" lisp.
10:52:07 <Quartus> If you want to write software in the Lisp programming language, I strongly recommend you use a full Lisp implementation.
10:52:14 <absentia> no, that isn't what Iw as saying.
10:52:22 <zpg> understood.
10:52:24 <absentia> yes, sbcl
10:52:30 <absentia> and forth, gforth
10:52:50 <Quartus> Dicking around with half-assed Lisp implementations by the same people who couldn't be arsed to write complete Forth implementations is an appreciable waste of time.
10:52:55 <zpg> absentia: the star trek stuff had modifications in the file itself, rather than including a compatability library. irksome.
10:53:14 <absentia> q:  I think you miss the forrest for the trees.
10:53:43 <Quartus> What do you mean by that?  
10:54:04 <Quartus> Because in English, that suggests that I somehow can't see the big picture.
10:54:15 <absentia> correct.
10:54:26 <Quartus> Ok.  And what is this big picture you think I'm missing?
10:54:43 <absentia> I am not interested in programing in a broken forth that's implemented in lisp or any other language -- or progamming in a broken lisp that implemented in forth.
10:55:06 <Quartus> Then why the white-knuckle fascination with partial Lisps written in Forth?
10:55:31 <absentia> I am interested in techniques used when implementing languages.... hence my run through of SICP -- which made me need to pick up enough scheme to understand what was going on.
10:55:40 <absentia> not white knuckled.
10:56:02 <zpg> absentia: in a more general sense, you'll find adopting features from other language, in a forth-like way, far more interesting.
10:56:35 <zpg> or rather, what i mean to say is that implementing linked-lists -- say -- in forth using forth idioms can teach you a lot more in my mind.
10:57:02 <absentia> hence, I am here.
10:57:18 <zpg> good stuff.
10:58:16 <zpg> when i first checked out forth properly, i asked the same sort of questions -- and looked into a heap of lisp libraries for forth.
10:58:50 <Quartus> If you're not interested in implementing Lisp, why study an implementation of Lisp?
10:58:53 <zpg> then Neal showed me his simple list code and that really changed the relief.
10:59:14 <Quartus> What language are you interested in implementing?
10:59:59 <zpg> incidentally, since one can say "1 2 cons" in my code, it'd be simple enough to write that as   s" (1 2 cons)" lisp-eval
11:00:11 <absentia> I have answered that before... but again -- I am interested in the implementation of languages as I would like to implement another language -- but what I have in mind is not just changing syntax and grammar via bnf rules, etc... so I'm looking around for both implementations of languages in other languages, techniques, and base language[s] to use....   
11:00:13 <zpg> and extend that throughout the system. why you'd do that is beyond me.
11:00:46 <zpg> Quartus: know of any languages implemented in Forth?
11:01:10 <Quartus> Any number, little and big. 
11:01:27 <absentia> I'm looking for someithng that is small... fast... has the ability to communicate via tcp -- and possibly can has multiple processes or threads... although I think I might do that myself...  
11:02:01 <zpg> Quartus: I'd  be interested to hear of a few -- but first, dinner!
11:03:59 <Quartus> absentia, I don't get that mode of thinking at all.  You've already got a bunch of languages you're not writing code in; why invent a whole new one?
11:07:32 <absentia> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/abc.html
11:09:32 <absentia> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-forth-793.html
11:21:16 <Ray_work> second link there is kinda cleaver with the :noname phrases in the bottles variable. I like that.
11:21:27 <Ray_work> cleaver, ya cleaver, doh!
11:21:31 <Ray_work> clever.
11:21:35 <Ray_work> but you knew that.
11:26:05 <Quartus> Yeah, I really don't find that to be good code.
11:27:38 <zpg> eww.
11:27:40 <Ray_work> Certainly, it took a second to see it, but in a production piece, you may never see it, so now I have to agree.
11:28:43 <zpg> it seems pointless. why use 3 nonames when you want to directly access their bodies? not to mention that it seems badly factored anyway, even if they were named.
11:29:19 <Ray_work> they 'are' named, sorta, they are all 'bottles' :)
11:29:20 <zpg> yeah, reading that again the whole thing seems pretty awful.
11:29:34 <zpg> especially .bottles
11:32:05 <Quartus> Here's one I wrote many years ago as an example for PilotFORTH.
11:32:07 <Quartus> http://forth.pastebin.ca/306908
11:32:42 <Quartus> I would do it slightly differently now, but it's still clearer I think.
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11:39:43 <absentia> I find that site.. interesting.
11:39:46 <zpg> http://forth.pastebin.ca/306920
11:39:58 <zpg> oops, Quartus has already pasted one
11:40:22 <zpg> ah well.
11:40:31 <absentia> so earlier, people were talking about getting an algorithm and code it, then come here for review
11:40:44 <zpg> sounds fair.
11:41:08 <absentia> so maybe I'll do hanoi, then 99 bottles (virtually the same) -- and then quicksort.
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11:41:29 <zpg> ahh, quicksort.
11:41:34 * zpg looks shifty
11:41:44 <zpg> Quartus: PilotFORTH? 
11:41:50 <absentia> quicksorts just look mean... when coded.
11:42:02 <zpg> is that QF mk 1?
11:42:03 <Quartus> Not at all. Zpg did up a lovely one just last month.
11:42:11 <Quartus> Yes, PilotFORTH was the earliest incarnation.
11:42:16 <zpg> neat.
11:42:27 <Quartus> If you go searching, you'll find a couple of other projects called pilotforth that aren't mine.
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11:42:47 <zpg> i found this straight away http://www.goggle.westfalen.de/forth/
11:46:01 <Ray_work> O
11:46:14 <Ray_work> oops sorry. wrong number
11:46:17 <Quartus> http://web.archive.org/web/19981203093035/www.interlog.com/~nbridges/p4th.html
11:47:50 <zpg> Quartus: so PF was an ANS-subset. What were the major changes when you went to QF? Or was it a case of a from-scratch rewrite?
11:48:16 <absentia> http://www.forth.org/fd/FD-V5N5.pdf  --> page 29
11:48:17 <zpg> (apart from bringing in a license)
11:48:23 <Quartus> It was not a subset, it was a compliant system.  I did a re-write for Quartus Forth, primarily focused on the event-handling system.
11:48:55 <zpg> ah okay, "PilotFORTH is a 16-bit on-board native-code ANSI-subset Forth compiler for the 3Com PalmPilot/IBM WorkPad series of handheld PDAs. It is intended to comply with the ANSI standard for Forth."
11:48:59 <zpg> hence the question.
11:49:07 <absentia> I'm sure you've coveed this (url?) but what's the draw of quartus forth?  
11:49:28 <Quartus> My error, in that case.  It was a subset only in the sense that it didn't have every ANS word in it.  It was not a subset, however, in that it didn't comply; it had CORE, etc.
11:49:29 <TreyB_> You can write code on the real device.
11:50:01 <zpg> absentia: on board development for the palm, in forth.
11:50:16 <absentia> ah. ok.
11:50:20 <absentia> thanks
11:50:20 <zpg> absentia: it's neat-o.
11:50:24 <zpg> :)
11:50:26 <Quartus> Yes.  Writing apps right on the face of the device itself.  Instant testing. Interactive.  All that good stuff.
11:50:42 <zpg> plus the bundled resource-editor, ability to make standalones, etc.
11:50:44 <Quartus> Makes you a portable programmer.  Anywhere you are, and all that.
11:51:00 <zpg> this is an amusingly relaxed sales pitch :)
11:51:32 <zpg> and absentia -- check out quartus.net
11:51:55 <absentia> I like my zaurus for that.... very nice.
11:52:14 <absentia> works for c++ + Qt ... 
11:52:23 <absentia> I have to get gforth onto it.
11:52:26 <zpg> on board compilers?
11:52:45 <zpg> i see a defunct python port.
11:53:03 <Quartus> You can compile C on a Zaurus.  It's slow and hard on battery, but you can do it.
11:53:12 <zpg> interesting.
11:53:15 <zpg> is it wince
11:53:20 <zpg> or win mobile or whatever they call the thing?
11:53:23 <Quartus> No, it's a small Linux compiled for ARM
11:53:28 <zpg> neat.
11:53:50 <zpg> absentia: that's a pretty compact quicksort.
11:54:01 <zpg> seems to use c@ though
11:54:12 <Quartus> The win for Forth on handheld devices is three-fold: faster, lighter on the processor, and the source fits the screen better.
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11:54:44 <zpg> yeah, the interactive vibe is a strong one.
11:54:54 <zpg> hi arke_
11:55:02 <Quartus> Interactivity is also big.
11:55:03 <absentia> zaurus -- run pdaxrom
11:55:39 <zpg> incidentally, is the tunes project actually going anywhere?
11:55:49 <absentia> I'll hook up one of my zauruses for you guys.. perhaps toniht
11:55:54 <absentia> you can ssh into it from the net and look around.
11:56:03 <zpg> cool.
11:56:33 <zpg> they sound like they're going to be q. dear.
11:56:36 <TreyB_> When I worked on PalmOS Cobalt, we added multi-screen support (think eBooks with facing pages or the second LCD on the outside of some flip-phones).
11:57:13 <absentia> http://zaurus.spy.org/screenshots/scottyelich/qtopia-zdebian-vnc/2003-10-19-180206_1024x768_scrot.jpg
11:57:21 <TreyB_> We wanted to write an app-builder that ran on the dual-screen setup in the simulator so we wouldn't have to support a GUI kit outside of our own.
11:57:42 <absentia> base qtopia -- with zdebian running off an sd card....  both running at once.
11:58:08 <zpg> TreyB_: interesting.
11:58:23 <absentia> http://zaurus.spy.org/screenshots/scottyelich/pdaXrom/jpg/df2.jpg
11:58:25 <TreyB_> That would have given C/C++ app developers something similar to Quartus Forth for on-the-device feel.
11:58:46 <zpg> absentia: KDE on a mobile device?!
11:58:59 <Quartus> TreyB_, without the interactivity. And with the continued issue of the screen width.  And it'd be C/C++. :)
11:59:05 <zpg> oh hang on, VNC window is the capture.
11:59:07 <zpg> duh
12:00:00 <absentia> I was on kde under freebsd running vnc to zaurus base qtopia os and vnc into zaurus zdebian both running on the same  pda... at the same time.
12:00:09 <TreyB_> Well, C lacks the interactivity, but we wanted to support drag-n-drop app installation and such so it would come pretty close.
12:00:24 <zpg> :)
12:00:33 <zpg> absentia: which model are you using?
12:00:44 <absentia> although now I just run straight pdaXrom.  comes will full sys source, can use a livecd image to cross compile (ie; 2GHz x86 speeds) -- etc.
12:01:01 <Quartus> TreyB_, even interactive C doesn't come close, in my experience.
12:01:28 <absentia> I bought a C700 a month before the 750/760 came out -- so I bought a 760...  and one day a guy in zaurus just decided to send me a 5600 ... so I have those three models -- not the nice new 3xxx model.
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12:02:15 <absentia> has 640x480, 16bit color (?) -- 64mb ram, 6GB local disk (on my model) ... infrared mini usb sd + cf ...  built in... I tend to put a 2GB sd and a wifi cf in it.
12:02:47 <zpg> Quartus: interactive C?
12:02:57 <Quartus> And C compilation has a cost; the compilers are large and cpu-intensive.  And you'd need a resource editor as well; the C development cycle wants that to be scripted. So you're looking at a whole IDE/make setup.
12:03:07 <Quartus> zpg, yes, there are a few such implementations.  Funny little things.
12:03:16 <zpg> curious, haven't come across that before.
12:03:37 <Quartus> ch from http://www.softintegration.com for instance
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12:05:28 <absentia> I had a C interpreter for my atari st in '90
12:05:38 <absentia> for c++ -- you can get "ch"
12:05:47 <zpg> are these interactive c's lighter than, say, lua? (obviously, taking GC and data structures into account)
12:06:00 <Quartus> lighter?  
12:06:12 <zpg> well, in terms of system load and footprint.
12:06:34 <Quartus> never checked.
12:06:46 <Quartus> zpg, that FD quicksort is fundamentally the same code we worked on together, just squeezed.
12:06:49 <zpg> btw -- did edrx ever come in here?
12:07:06 <Quartus> I don't recall the name.
12:07:08 <zpg> Quartus: yep, no separate partition.
12:07:24 <Quartus> Right. And with some silly tricks, like  1 -1 d+
12:07:36 * zpg nods
12:07:46 <Quartus> and it's char-specific. But the shape of the partitioning algorithm is the same.
12:08:19 <Quartus> They've missed the obvious optimization to reduce stack use.
12:08:36 <zpg> i'm not looking at the PDF any more. what are you referring to?
12:08:42 <zpg> re: optimisation
12:08:59 <Quartus> Recursing on the shorter sublist, tail-recursing (looping) on the longer one.
12:09:10 <zpg> ah.
12:09:43 <zpg> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/62f0d3eaeca24e5d
12:10:56 <zpg> It seems to me that this lament (Hoffman) -- "What are the big issues facing Forth today?" ('rickman') often fuse together. It's not just petty bickering (cf. Drake) but more people insistent that Forth sucks at the moment, but could be made better if only everyone agreed to discuss it.
12:11:28 <Quartus> He's just trying to deflect away from the argument he badly lost.
12:11:39 <Quartus> Credit him with the wit to do that; Drake lacks it.
12:12:15 <zpg> Heh.
12:12:25 <Quartus> Oh sorry. Hoffman. I was thinking of rickman.  Haven't read the hoffman yet.
12:12:30 <zpg> Could be worse. Could be "that's bad programming style, and besides, where's IMPORT?!"
12:12:48 <Quartus> oh it is rickman.
12:12:48 <zpg> Quartus: well, rickman is quoted in Hoffman's reply.
12:13:10 <Quartus> yes, at least Doty has momentarily shut up about Python.
12:13:25 <zpg> it's enough to make anyone religious.
12:15:13 * absentia must try it, then
12:15:37 <zpg> try what? quicksort or conversion at the hands of no recent doty posts?
12:16:19 <absentia> conversion
12:16:50 <zpg> it might require a dose of doty before-hand. consult the search feature.
12:17:10 <zpg> i couldn't believe the debates over stuff like ENDIF and IMPORT
12:17:11 <zpg> absurd.
12:17:29 <Quartus> Anything to avoid actual work.
12:17:44 <Quartus> Coughlin even claims to be writing Forth, now.  I think that's actually impossible.
12:17:57 <zpg> "I quite simply can't use the language unless it's forward parsing, and renamed after an infamous London university"
12:18:10 <zpg> Quartus: heh.
12:18:24 <Quartus> Plenty of folks think they need to invent a new programming language instead of using existing ones.
12:18:39 <zpg> nudge nudge
12:18:56 <Quartus> present examples notwithstanding, it's a common ailment.
12:19:06 <zpg> slava seems to be doing a good job.
12:19:18 * absentia is reading the werty code.
12:19:24 <zpg> code?
12:19:29 <absentia> ha!
12:19:34 <zpg> luddite!
12:19:34 <Quartus> I haven't used factor.  It is a whole environment, more than a language.
12:19:38 <absentia> don't get all excited.
12:19:44 <absentia> parse error again.
12:19:48 <zpg> Quartus: yeah, reminds me of a pretty shiny stack-based smalltalk.
12:20:10 <absentia> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_thread/thread/3a27c0ab654d1c90
12:20:11 <zpg> admirable effort, i tinkered with it briefly.
12:20:18 <Quartus> He is at least well-versed in the programming techniques he's drawing from.
12:20:22 <Quartus> That's rare.
12:20:25 <zpg> i gather slava didn't use forth too much, took some inspiration from joy and lisp.
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12:21:00 <zpg> absentia: ah, some Fox-werty stuff.
12:21:02 <zpg> fun fun.
12:21:54 <absentia> Jeff Foxwerthy?
12:22:21 <absentia> you might be a forth coder if... you have 1 store for every fetch?
12:22:27 <absentia> (sorry,my forth isn't that deep, yet)
12:22:46 <absentia> you might be a forth coder ... if your stack is empty? (clean?)
12:22:47 <zpg> is that Fox's wisdom?
12:22:54 <absentia> you know Jeff Foxworthy?
12:23:00 <absentia> you might be a redneck if ___
12:23:11 <Quartus> He's making a reference to an American stand-up comic.
12:23:15 <zpg> you lost me.
12:23:18 <absentia> sorry
12:23:22 <absentia> bad attempt at humor.
12:23:23 <zpg> no need to apologise.
12:23:28 <zpg> which comic?
12:24:18 <Quartus> Foxworthy
12:24:28 <absentia> www.jefffoxworthy.com
12:24:45 <zpg> ah okay. the above begins to make sense.
12:25:14 * zpg hits emacs
12:25:36 <absentia> so when you say it's "fox-werty wisdom"  -- i jumped the shark to "Jeff FOXwerthy wisdom" and "you might be a forth coder if _____"
12:25:37 <zpg> the 30 second lag before a link actually gets opened in firefox is a tad irritating.
12:26:17 <zpg> i don't recognise this guy at all.
12:26:54 <Quartus> He's big in the south.
12:27:00 <zpg> ah.
12:27:09 <zpg> wrong continent then.
12:27:13 <Quartus> A real knee-slapper, apparently.
12:27:21 <zpg> heh.
12:27:33 <zpg> "ahh, Foxworthy you old dog..." har har
12:27:38 <zpg> that sort of thing?
12:27:56 <Quartus> More of a "heee haw! that boy sure done pegged us dumb crackers!"
12:28:03 * zpg chuckles
12:28:19 <absentia> you might be a redneck if -- if your porch collapsed, it would kill more than 3 dogs.
12:28:29 <zpg> yeah, looking back at what i wrote it drips of britishisms i guess
12:28:56 <zpg> absentia: where're you situated?
12:29:00 <Quartus> "Foxworthy, me and the missus lauged so doggone hard at yer jokes that the ripple shot straight out of my nose."
12:29:19 <zpg> heh
12:30:48 * absentia moved from Times Square, New York City ... to end of the world .. west palm beach, florida.
12:31:10 <absentia> ya, ripple blanc, 1997
12:31:58 <absentia> me needs to make a werty-phrase generator ...
12:32:07 <absentia> or a wertify filter.
12:33:14 <zpg> Florida is the end of the world now?
12:33:29 <zpg> Mind you, if you lived there....
12:35:34 <absentia> where?
12:35:40 <absentia> (west palm beach?)
12:36:03 <absentia> ever seen the insanity news stories? on cnn or drudge? all from (west) palm beach.
12:36:12 <absentia> hanging chads in the 2000 election? that was ..  palm beach.
12:36:25 <absentia> sharks, joggers being eaten by gators... florida
12:36:34 <absentia> guy assaulting another driver with deer antlers? florida.
12:36:37 <absentia> etc. etc.
12:36:47 <zpg> you should work for the tourist board. i want to visit already.
12:38:20 <zpg> anyway, i best head off for a bit. good talking.
12:38:37 <zpg> cheerio.
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12:39:36 <absentia> Fourth person robbed of pants in 3 months, Florida considers banning pants to make everyone safe.
12:39:38 <absentia> ah. ok.
12:48:12 <absentia> fark.com has an entire category -- just for the state of florida
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14:33:49 <absentia> so.. new article on drudge
14:33:59 <absentia> woman's bra blocks bullet...  I click...  florida.  of course.
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15:45:04 <I440r> sounds like a crock of ($^%$( to me
15:45:16 <I440r> and why "florida of course"
15:45:39 <I440r> your more likely to be shot in washington dc or chicago than you are in baghdad
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16:30:26 <Quartus_> hey
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17:37:34 <zpg> Hi.
17:37:50 <Quartus_> hey
17:37:54 <zpg> hi Neal.
17:38:30 <zpg> have I missed much?
17:38:45 <ASau> I don't think so.
17:38:52 <ASau> Good evening.
17:39:02 <ASau> Or good morning.
17:39:34 <zpg> hey ASau 
17:46:39 <zpg> ASau: what's up?
17:48:44 <ASau> ?
17:48:46 <ASau> Sorry?
17:48:52 <ASau> It's too early morning here.
17:50:31 <zpg> Fair enough.
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18:02:48 <Quartus> Back at home base.
18:03:29 <zpg> Good stuff.
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18:08:18 <zpg> hi neceve 
18:08:49 <neceve> hi zpg
18:12:13 <zpg> Has anything noteworthy been written in retroforth?
18:12:21 <zpg> That is, has anyone managed to get anything done with it?
18:12:49 <Quartus> I used it for ad-hoc things while writing the book, but I've never tried a whole app.
18:13:25 <zpg> Did you have to add a significant amount of functionality with the ANS layer, or was it more a case of providing portable names?
18:14:57 <Quartus> Names were the largest part of just getting to compatible, plus changing when names become visible during compilation, and case-sensitivity.  I went on to add exception handling, wordlists, and a bunch of additional words.
18:15:28 * zpg nods
18:15:38 <zpg> How rich is the basic dialect?
18:15:43 <zpg> (without your mods)
18:15:50 <Quartus> It's fairly minimal.
18:16:40 <zpg> Yeah, I got that impression. I take it the retro guys aren't interested in making the system ANS by default.
18:16:50 <Quartus> I think crc is 'the retro guys'.
18:16:59 <zpg> :)
18:17:22 <Quartus> Thing is, the basic rf system is only about six inches away from a typical Standard Forth.
18:18:02 <zpg> Are there arguments against going standard in the rf camp then?
18:18:12 <Quartus> Don't know.
18:19:13 <Quartus> What things rf does that are non-standard (beyond simple name changes) are not dependent on anything that would prevent standard compliance, as the layer shows.
18:20:25 <Quartus> The only remaining bits are some peculiarities in the way it reads and parses source.  That's the 0.01 remaining %.
18:20:36 * zpg nods
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18:40:59 <zpg> hey slava.
18:41:05 <slava> g'day
18:41:10 <Quartus> Oy.
18:41:36 <zpg> slava: how's it going?
18:42:54 <slava> fixing an O(n^2) algorithm to be O(n).
18:43:32 <zpg> what's it for?
18:43:52 <slava> evaluating an html template; you print text and run factor code between <% ... %>
18:44:06 <slava> the algorithm to tokenize on <% and %> was stupid
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18:45:08 <zpg> heh.
18:45:10 <zpg> hi I440r 
18:45:18 <I440r> hi
18:47:03 <slava> I440r: found any gold rings?
18:51:38 <I440r> no
18:51:46 <I440r> detector is in trunk of car
18:51:53 <I440r> car is having tire pressure sensor replaced
18:53:55 <I440r> not likely to find many rings here unless someone dropped one in teh local park
18:54:04 <I440r> might find a gold nugget tho :)
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18:56:36 <zpg> or a fish finger.
18:56:48 <I440r> fish dont have fingers
18:56:57 <zpg> yet birds have eyes.
18:57:06 <zpg> a curious non-paradox.
18:57:14 <I440r> chicken dont have fingers either :)
18:57:40 <zpg> neither do chairs.
18:57:43 <zpg> we could do this all day.
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18:58:11 <I440r> no
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18:58:20 <I440r> i would get bored of it :)
18:58:25 <zpg> aww shucks. you've gone'n'ruined my game.
18:58:32 <I440r> :)
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19:18:51 <brainly-green> hey I'm just learning about forth, and I want to ask:  it says on wikipedia that new forth words can be defined to extend the language.  Is this a compiler-level extension like macros in Lisp, or does the extension happen at runtime?
19:18:52 <zpg> hi brainly-green 
19:19:12 <brainly-green> hi zpg
19:19:43 <I440r> :)
19:19:49 <I440r> it happens immediatly
19:20:07 <I440r> : foo do lots of stuff here loop ;
19:20:10 <I440r> 1 2 3 foo
19:20:22 <slava> brainly-green: forth words are just functions
19:20:24 <I440r> immediatly after defining foo you can reference it
19:20:28 <I440r> its now part of the language
19:20:32 <slava> forth immediate words are sort of like lisp macros
19:20:34 <I440r> you EXTENDED it
19:20:45 <slava> insofar as defining a new function in C extends C, yes
19:20:59 <I440r> no 
19:21:07 <zpg> fight fight fight
19:21:10 <slava> i'm talking about oridnary words, not immediate words
19:21:11 <I440r> defining a new function in c does not extend teh c language
19:21:12 <brainly-green> ok so it's not compiler efficiency
19:21:16 <slava> ordinary word == function
19:21:27 <brainly-green> if you extend the language your extensions won't be as fast as they would be if they were part of the compiler
19:21:28 <zpg> brainly-green: were you looking at a particular example?
19:21:32 <slava> brainly-green: you can define new words which run at parse time, too
19:21:36 <slava> brainly-green: they're called immediate words
19:21:37 <I440r> yes they are
19:21:43 <slava> brainly-green: no, forget the whole 'fast' thing
19:21:53 <zpg> brainly-green: it depends. some words are coded primitives. others are high level forth.
19:22:06 <slava> the stuff you guys code doesn't need performance anyway :p
19:22:14 <zpg> heh
19:22:15 <I440r> lol
19:22:17 <I440r> asshole :P
19:22:18 <zpg> Captain O^n
19:22:21 <brainly-green> in lisp macros are replacement rules that just do text substitution, so there is no runtime overhead to using a macro
19:22:27 <brainly-green> is there something similar in forth?
19:22:33 <slava> lisp macros don't do text substitution
19:22:41 <slava> forth immediate words are like lisp macros in that they run at compile time
19:22:51 <slava> sounds like you need to learn more about forth and lisp.
19:23:01 <zpg> like , interpolated elements in lisp.
19:23:05 <brainly-green> yes I do this is why I'm here, I'm wondering if I should learn forth
19:23:11 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth
19:23:20 <snowrichard> hi
19:23:23 <zpg> hi snowrichard 
19:23:24 <brainly-green> hi'
19:23:26 <slava> brainly-green: why shouldn't you?
19:23:41 <brainly-green> slava: it would take time
19:23:52 <I440r> brainly-green if you DO learn forth you will be a better coder for having done so
19:23:55 <slava> one can avoid learning anything at all, during their lifetime
19:24:00 <snowrichard> anything worth doing takes time
19:24:02 <slava> go sell crack
19:24:02 <zpg> brainly-green: try it and see. if you don't want to, don't.
19:24:09 <zpg> heh
19:24:17 <zpg> or better, crack solutions.
19:24:20 <zpg> it's 2007 after all.
19:24:21 <brainly-green> well what I want to know is if you can literally extend the compiler using forth
19:24:26 <slava> yes, you can
19:24:34 <slava> you can define new control structures using immediate words
19:24:36 <brainly-green> if you can define a word that does not have calling overhead during runtime
19:24:50 <slava> brainly-green: any control structure has 'calling overhead' in any language
19:24:50 <brainly-green> do immediate words have zero runtime calling overhead?
19:24:54 <slava> depends on what they do
19:24:59 <slava> an immedaite word can compile code
19:24:59 <brainly-green> lisp macros don't
19:25:04 <slava> depends on what the macro does
19:25:05 <brainly-green> and C macros don't
19:25:14 <slava> #define FOO sleep(1000);
19:25:17 <I440r> brainly-green yes and no - immediate words EXECUTE at compile time, not compile
19:25:18 <zpg> don't compare C and Lisp macros.
19:25:20 <slava> now if I write FOO, that's a1 second delay at runtime
19:25:38 <slava> brainly-green: if a C or a lisp macro inserts code which runs at runtime, then sure it has runtime 'overhead'
19:26:05 <slava> the macro expansion itself is done at compile time so that has no effect on runtime performance
19:26:11 <slava> but the macro has to compile some code, otherwise its useless
19:26:13 <brainly-green> by overhead I mean overhead related to pushing the arguments onto the stack, popping them, and so forth--everything related to calling a function as opposed to the actual work that the function does
19:26:39 <slava> you're confusing too many concepts
19:26:44 <slava> macros, language extension, inline functions
19:26:54 <Quartus> Yes. Forget all that. If you want to learn Forth, learn Forth.
19:27:03 <Quartus> If not, off you go.
19:27:06 <slava> and don't compare forth to lisp or c
19:27:08 <brainly-green> C inline functions are peripheral, I just mentioned them because I happened to think of them, I'm really talking about lisp macros
19:27:24 <zpg> do you actually use lisp macros?
19:27:28 <Quartus> Forth isn't Lisp. C isn't Forth.  C is also not Lisp.  'macro' means different things in different languages.
19:27:32 <brainly-green> yes, I'm writing a program now that uses them
19:27:46 <slava> using lisp macros for the purpose of optimization only is considered very, very bad style
19:27:46 <snowrichard> so go to #lisp :) 
19:27:52 <zpg> heh.
19:28:05 <slava> if you really need to, CL lets you (declaim (inline your-function))
19:28:28 <brainly-green> well can you inline functions in forth
19:28:31 <slava> macros should only be used to define new control structures, DSLs, and other macro-ish things. not to inline code, that's an idiotic artifact of C
19:28:31 <brainly-green> that's basically all I'm asking
19:28:35 <slava> yes, you can
19:28:40 <brainly-green> ok
19:28:45 <Quartus> alternatively, no you can't.
19:28:49 <slava> how, varies depending on your forth
19:28:49 <brainly-green> ???
19:28:59 <slava> eg, consider this word  : sq dup * ;
19:29:02 <slava> squares the top of the stack
19:29:11 <slava> if you want to inline it, : sq postpone dup postpone * ; immediate
19:29:20 <slava> now if you write sq somewhere, it won't compile a call to sq, it just compiles dup *
19:29:30 <slava> but there's no point doing that because word calling overhead is so low in forth
19:29:37 <zpg> brainly-green: i think the real issue here is that Forth can provide a flexible and powerful environment for software development, with its own idioms. It's unproductive to see whether it has an exact parallel for "feature a" from language b, or "feature c" from languade d.
19:29:39 <slava> and 90% of your code doesn't need performance because it runs in 0.001 ms
19:29:47 <slava> zpg: exactly
19:29:53 <Quartus> So stop doing that right now.
19:29:58 * slava stops
19:30:02 <Quartus> heh
19:30:57 <slava> of course, if your deciding criterion for learning a language is whenever it can inline functions ,chances are you're too inexperienced
19:31:26 <brainly-green> well actually I'm not only basing it on inline functions, I mean more than that
19:31:45 <brainly-green> in lisp you can do more than say "replace this with this" you can say "run this program and replace this with its output during compilation"
19:31:47 <slava> choose a language based on whenever it can express the problem domain you are trying to solve
19:31:54 <slava> inline functions are not part of ANY problem domain
19:32:06 <zpg> brainly-green: in lisp you write lisp. in forth you write forth.
19:32:13 <zpg> brainly-green: look at forth, write some. see.
19:32:17 <slava> brainly-green: sure, because what that really means is that in lisp, you can run arbitrary code at compile time. you can do the same in forth, except its rather different
19:32:17 <brainly-green> well, say that I wanted to implement my own object system in forth
19:32:24 <zpg> brainly-green: it's doable.
19:32:29 <Quartus> You don't know Forth. So let's not say that you do.
19:32:29 <brainly-green> would I be able to do it efficiently
19:32:30 <slava> why not use an existing object system though? there are tons
19:32:36 <I440r> but pointless imho
19:32:36 <brainly-green> without adding a lot of runtime overhead
19:32:38 <zpg> brainly-green: and there are bundled object systems with gforth. you're overreaching though.
19:33:01 <slava> brainly-green: runtime overhead in an object system is unavoidable if you want to do dynamic dispatch. it doesn't depend on having inline functions or not.
19:33:13 <brainly-green> is there a block of code that you can compile before the rest of your code that gives the rest of your code an efficient object system?
19:33:16 <zpg> brainly-green: what piece of majestic real time ware are you writing that you're so concerned for performance?
19:33:24 <slava> Quartus: when i decide to learn a new language, rarely is my first project a compiler extension... in fact this has never been the case
19:33:38 <Quartus> slava, right.
19:33:45 <zpg> "
19:33:57 <slava> hey i want to learn prolog... oh i know, i'll implement lambda expressions!!!111
19:34:01 <brainly-green> well I do have a specific thing in mind, a specific type of object system which I'm doing in lisp
19:34:13 <slava> rethink your problem in a forth context
19:34:19 <slava> you won't get far by trying to port your lisp code to forth (or vice versa)
19:34:26 <slava> you might be able to solve it without an object system at all
19:34:26 <zpg> brainly-green: and who writes an object system as their first project in a new language?
19:34:43 <brainly-green> I learned common lisp for the purpose of writing an object system
19:34:48 <zpg> it has one.
19:34:52 <slava> indeed
19:34:55 <brainly-green> I want to make a different one
19:35:05 <Quartus> Ok. So you're off in the weeds.
19:35:32 <brainly-green> no, I'm experimenting with an idea I had
19:35:44 <slava> what sort of idea?
19:35:50 <zpg> sorry to break it to you, but objects have been thought of before.
19:36:06 <brainly-green> the idea is that the messages objects pass to each other could be denotative statements about the world that the program operates in
19:36:20 <brainly-green> instead of passing a number between two objects, you pass a message that something is true
19:36:32 <slava> that's too vague 
19:36:43 <brainly-green> objects that produce only true output can be called sane
19:36:47 <brainly-green> even if they never produce any output
19:37:02 <brainly-green> that is, an object that produces true output given only true input can be called sane, which is different from its actually being correct
19:37:04 <zpg> er, why are you passing a number between two objects? surely you'd call a method with a number as argument?
19:37:12 <brainly-green> yes that's what I mean zpg
19:37:13 <zpg> k
19:37:23 <brainly-green> only I'm thinking I want to call methods with a factual statement as an argument
19:37:56 <brainly-green> so then objects and their dispatch methods are basically just inference rules
19:38:12 <I440r> so u would pass x=5 instead of passing x and having a test in the called code ?
19:38:26 <brainly-green> very complicated inference rules, possibly, but inference rules
19:38:34 <brainly-green> that produce facts when given other facts
19:38:52 <brainly-green> and you wouldn't ever say x = 5 in this system--you would instead say some fact about the world the system lives in
19:39:03 <brainly-green> like "there five users online at time 10:32 PM"
19:39:23 * zpg sighs
19:39:32 <snowrichard> prolog?
19:39:42 <zpg> lobotomy?
19:39:45 <brainly-green> similar to prolog
19:39:57 <brainly-green> except instead of an inference rule you have an object
19:40:14 <brainly-green> which can be written, internally, in any language whatsoever and can be a lot more complicated than a prolog rule
19:40:22 <brainly-green> but that has the net effect of performing inference on facts
19:40:25 <zpg> wouldn't it be better to f/muck around with this stuff in an already-extant object system?
19:40:42 <slava> in fact, what he's describing is not an object system at all
19:41:09 <zpg> slava: ah ok. i lost track a while back. 
19:41:19 <brainly-green> well it's an extension to an object system, a means for objects to communicate--a part of an object system
19:41:20 <snowrichard> you lost me too
19:41:50 <zpg> snowrichard: come over here, where abstraction is paramount and factoring well received.
19:41:52 <brainly-green> my plan is to extend the CLOS with macros to define objects that communicate in this way
19:42:07 <zpg> sounds like that could get ugly.
19:42:09 <Quartus> Take a map and a flashlight.
19:42:13 <I440r> brainly-green ask yourself this. would this system if you got it up and running actually DO anything for you that cant already be done in a far easier waay
19:42:54 <brainly-green> I don't know I440r, I think it would help you debug for example
19:43:13 <zpg> unlikely.
19:43:14 --- quit: snowrichard (Remote closed the connection)
19:43:14 <brainly-green> making the log for a program should be as simple as recording the facts that were passed, for example
19:43:34 <brainly-green> because every fact passed is a top-level denotative statement, you can examine them to find out when they become false
19:43:44 <brainly-green> and thereby isolate the object that is producing false facts
19:44:47 <brainly-green> also a top level language for denoting facts about the world would need to be one of the first things you write, and I think that might help organize my ideas about how to design a program
19:44:49 <I440r> if they are false they are not facts
19:44:55 <I440r> therefore they are lies :)
19:44:57 <brainly-green> ok false statements I mean
19:45:02 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:45:30 <Quartus> Let's put this in context.  ##c [20:56] <brainly-green> interpreted languages are around 60 times as slow as compiled ones
19:45:37 <I440r> terminilogical inexactitudes ?
19:45:43 <slava> Quartus: lol
19:45:52 <slava> the actual figure is 45, not 60
19:46:02 <brainly-green> shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=spectralnorm&lang=all
19:47:35 <zpg> btw -- "objects that produce only true output can be called sane" -- you realise one object can have multiple methods? this doesn't really make much sense -- false objects are false in what sense -- all of their methods have to be true for the object to be true? bah? (and as slava points out, these aren't really objects)
19:48:16 <I440r> i dont know from %&^$ about oop
19:48:19 <brainly-green> well, you could break it down into the method level
19:48:24 <I440r> and i like it that way
19:48:28 <brainly-green> and talk about the sanity of a method as well as of an object
19:48:49 <zpg> I440r: a fan of ignorance?
19:48:54 <Quartus> Yes, let's talk about sanity.
19:48:58 <zpg> heh
19:48:59 <brainly-green> I was thinking of the larger-grained distinction of the entire object's sanity, where each object would have a single dispatch method
19:49:01 <slava> a foreign concept, to some.
19:49:19 <I440r> your forign :)
19:49:22 <brainly-green> that looks at all the facts it has been given and determines whether it can infer anything based on those facts
19:49:30 <zpg> Quartus: "sanity, ignorance and irrigation" perhaps.
19:49:39 <Quartus> Irritation.
19:49:45 <zpg> don't forget to flush.
19:49:50 <I440r> brainly-green what does all this added extra obfuscation of a problem DO for you
19:49:59 <zpg> saves writing any real code.
19:50:02 <I440r> the best solution to any problem is ALWAYS the simplest
19:50:03 <Quartus> I'll tell you what it's doing to me.
19:50:14 <brainly-green> I440r: I hope it will make design, debugging, and logging simpler
19:50:27 <I440r> forth already does that
19:50:31 <brainly-green> ok
19:50:34 <I440r> without oop
19:50:47 <I440r> devel in forth is way faster than almost anything else you can think of
19:50:47 <zpg> brainly-green: it clearly won't. the design seems convoluted and confused. you'll spend all your time writing, debugging and rewriting the damned hting.
19:51:03 <zpg> I440r: that requires massive qualification.
19:51:14 <I440r> zpg no. i dont think it does
19:51:19 <brainly-green> well zpg it's my time to waste
19:51:25 <zpg> brainly-green: very true.
19:51:38 <zpg> but Quartus isn't getting any happier :)
19:51:48 <I440r> lol
19:52:00 <I440r> brainly-green it wouldnt be wasted time
19:52:07 <I440r> it would definatly be an education
19:52:07 <brainly-green> I'm a student, I might be able to turn this into a project
19:52:19 <zpg> I440r: he's referring to his ueber-object-bloat-pro-5k system.
19:52:24 <I440r> but before you do it learn forth
19:52:27 <I440r> you wont regret it
19:52:35 <I440r> i know
19:53:11 <brainly-green> ok well I'll think about learning forth
19:53:42 <zpg> how polite.
19:54:04 <I440r> forth will take you 2 weeks to learn the basics
19:54:11 <I440r> if you apply yourself
19:54:27 <Quartus> Hang on, I'll just mark the calendar.
19:54:54 <slava> in 2 weeks, he'll still be thinking about learning forth
19:54:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
19:55:28 <Quartus> No, he'll be blithering in some other channel.
19:56:14 <slava> Quartus: did you see the 'werty code' post on c.l.f?
19:56:26 <slava> jeff fox is warming to him
19:56:29 <Quartus> The Fox spew? Yes.
19:56:31 <brainly-green> I mean I might learn forth in a while--it will be on my list of things I might want to learn, I have other things to do right now
19:56:45 <I440r> WAHT werty code
19:56:49 * zpg blinks
19:56:51 <I440r> what code has werty ever produced
19:57:08 <zpg> it's the name of the thread.
19:57:39 <I440r> i know
19:59:10 <slava> you know, i'm not surprised at all that fox of all people is now combing through werty's postings looking for a semblance of meaning
19:59:16 --- join: mark4 (n=foo@ip70-162-111-107.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth
19:59:17 <mark4> grr
19:59:46 <Quartus> what happened, did you see a tassle?
20:00:05 <mark4> no. my connection died
20:00:12 <mark4> a tassle ?
20:00:19 <Quartus> Stooges.
20:00:35 <mark4> u lost me lol
20:00:47 <Quartus> 3 Stooges.  Tassles made Curly growl.
20:00:59 <mark4> oh
20:01:59 <Quartus> I'm disappointed to learn that you are unfamiliar with the Howard Family's great cinematic achievements. :)
20:02:09 <slava> any win32 coders in here?
20:02:36 <zpg> no, sorry.
20:02:47 <slava> its ok i'll troll msdn
20:03:04 <zpg> for?
20:03:12 <zpg> HTML stuff still?
20:03:16 <slava> some pecularities of the directory listing function
20:03:16 <slava> html?
20:03:26 <zpg> your algorithm from earlier.
20:03:28 <slava> no
20:03:31 <zpg> k
20:03:34 <slava> that has no win32-specific code :)
20:04:34 --- join: I440r__ (n=foo@ip70-162-111-107.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth
20:12:49 --- part: brainly-green left #forth
20:14:15 <Quartus> I miss him.
20:16:26 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth
20:16:33 <snowrichard> hi
20:17:15 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:17:24 --- nick: I440r__ -> I440r
20:17:30 <snowrichard> hi i1440
20:17:41 <I440r> :)
20:18:23 <snowrichard> just called att repair to get them to come out and fix my cable cut
20:19:04 <snowrichard> tuesday they said
20:19:25 <Quartus> They always say that.
20:19:33 <slava> luddites.
20:20:39 <snowrichard> we've got it spliced so I can use the line except that it goes out when its wet 
20:21:13 <Quartus> I see.
20:21:15 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:22:19 <snowrichard> what's  a luddite?
20:22:35 <slava> somebody who opposes industrial mechanization 
20:22:47 <snowrichard> a little late for that
20:22:55 <Quartus> Specifically as regards weaving.
20:23:15 <snowrichard> oh ok I think I remember something about that in a history class.  
20:23:46 <Quartus> Used in a broader sense to mean anyone who rejects workforce automation. 
20:23:58 <Quartus> Used in a wrong sense by Werty to mean who-the-hell-knows-what.
20:24:04 <I440r> lol
20:24:05 <slava> C programmers?
20:24:09 <snowrichard> Werty? 
20:24:13 <Quartus> He calls everybody luddites.
20:24:28 <snowrichard> is this on c.l.f? I don't read that
20:24:32 <Quartus> it is
20:24:40 <I440r> you not missing much
20:25:03 <snowrichard> don't have  a news server.  guess I could use google groups
20:25:36 <Raystm2> snowrichard: save yourself. :)
20:25:52 <snowrichard> what's that ray?
20:26:06 * Raystm2 IS a LUDDITTE!!!111oneoneone
20:26:09 <I440r> good advice :)
20:26:12 <slava> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_frm/thread/491356161d51ed82/7178c37d1e9e5bd0#7178c37d1e9e5bd0
20:26:39 <Raystm2> I just came from there, snowrichard.
20:27:00 <Raystm2> it's only fun to a selective few with aquired tastes.
20:27:12 <Quartus> YOU ARE ALL FOOLS !!!
20:27:18 <I440r> lol
20:27:20 <Raystm2> Remain a virgin!
20:29:33 <Raystm2> When I code in Forth I touch myself. 
20:30:18 --- quit: ellisway (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:30:20 <Raystm2> Anyway... Going to Dallas tomorrow on the train. Get anybody anything?
20:30:40 <I440r> where are u now ?
20:30:42 <Raystm2> This time I'm going to take the DART somewhere north.
20:30:51 <Quartus> Stop by the book depository, pick me up that volume on rifles
20:30:58 <snowrichard> if I were to go to dallas I would drive, but its about 150 miles and I have no reason to go there
20:31:02 <Raystm2> right between my desk and my chair, where are you.
20:31:13 <I440r> earth
20:31:17 <I440r> i think
20:31:24 <Raystm2> Quartus: went there 3 weeks ago.
20:31:35 <Raystm2> mark, Forth Wort.
20:31:51 <I440r> aha
20:32:13 <Raystm2> What is Fox here again?!?
20:33:00 <snowrichard> hope my mandriva install finishes this time.  errored out twice already with mysterious network problems.
20:33:34 <Raystm2> At the grassy knoll, you can get some dvd's with atleast 5 different camera views of the area when K was shot.
20:33:58 <snowrichard> I was in first grade then
20:34:49 <snowrichard> I remembered the funeral in black and white.  Saw it later in high school in color -- couldn't put by finger on why it was different right away. 
20:35:03 <Raystm2> Behind the depository, ( which is something else now and dang if I forgot what) is a  mm-u-see-'em for the fallen of the era.
20:35:28 <Raystm2> Heavy K and MLK and BK stuff there.
20:35:37 <Quartus> People weren't actually in color until 1965.
20:35:51 <slava> heh
20:36:03 <snowrichard> I don't think we had a color tv till the 70's
20:36:14 <Raystm2> I remember. When that house came down on my step mother i didn't know weather to spit or scratch my ass.
20:36:19 <I440r> they were either black or white :)
20:36:33 <Raystm2> whether? doh!
20:36:40 <Quartus> No, there were many gray people. I've seen the pictures.
20:37:38 <Raystm2> Yes! Indeed. little Grays and the taller thinner more almond eyed grays.
20:37:48 <I440r> lol
20:38:02 <Quartus> Not Greys, those are Oakford's specialty.
20:38:41 <Raystm2> do you know that I went back over that last line and pulled the e's out of the greys cuz yours were a A. :(
20:38:56 <Quartus> Heh. Conventionally gray is the colour, Grey is the alien.
20:39:05 <Raystm2> ya. I know. DOH!
20:39:21 * Raystm2 goes ahead and scratches ass cuz spit makes me gag.
20:39:27 <Quartus> Though of course they use colorForth, in which gray is unavailable.
20:39:50 <snowrichard> I'd have to use different fonts or something
20:39:59 <Raystm2> Wait a 8 shade minute MR! 
20:40:52 <Raystm2> Holy mode keys Batman!
20:41:12 <Quartus> I've come up with a colorForth for the colour-blind, and it fixes all of the other problems too.  It's called Standard Forth, and with some help from Dr. Who it's been available for nearly 13 years. :)
20:41:37 <Raystm2> Grey is that color reserved for intellegent systems that can pass sanity notes in classes.
20:42:03 <Quartus> C'mon.  You're just channeling brainless-grub.
20:42:04 <Raystm2> Darlick Magic Inc. 
20:42:33 <Raystm2> Quartus: caught me. :(
20:42:43 <Raystm2> Darlick and Magic, not a flow there ... 
20:43:28 <Raystm2> Gets caught in the back of the tongue before you get to say Inc.
20:43:47 <Raystm2> comes out kickinck
20:43:57 <Quartus> Ray, you're off in unknown territory.
20:44:22 <Raystm2> It's okay, seen this carpet before.
20:46:11 * Raystm2 taking a break from Burke for a bit.
20:47:08 <snowrichard> think I'll look at my MC Escher book
20:48:08 <Raystm2> OOH! 
20:48:17 <Raystm2> someone tried to tell me about that. 
20:48:18 <Quartus> PURPLE DRAPES!
20:48:24 <snowrichard> got it for christmas from mom
20:48:41 <Raystm2> Thanks Mom! :)
20:49:02 <Raystm2> Quartus: was it you told me 'bout that book?
20:49:32 <Quartus> Raystm2, I don't think so.  Escher isn't one book, he was an artist and did quite a number of pieces.  There are various books of his more popular stuff.
20:49:48 <Quartus> Lithographs, wood cuts, etc.
20:50:27 <Quartus> He liked optical tricks, transformations, that sort of thing.
20:50:46 <snowrichard> this one's cute ants on a moebius strip
20:51:46 <Raystm2> Sure. I recall. It was a conversation about the people moving on the stairwells... timlarson that's who was talking about it.
20:52:09 <Raystm2> Alright timlarson, own up!
20:52:11 <Quartus> I may have been discussing Godel, Escher, and Bach.
20:52:22 <snowrichard> read that book once
20:52:31 <Raystm2> It was timlarson. Not you! lol 
20:52:45 <Raystm2> nanny-nanny boo-boo.
20:53:30 <Raystm2> NO wait. There was a conversation about that as well with you, too. Context returning to this tired mind, stand by for heavy rolls.
20:54:27 <Raystm2> I've come to the conclusion.
20:54:27 <snowrichard> almost halfway on the Mandriva install hope it doesn't error out again
20:58:00 <snowrichard> I don't have any rolls.  I could make some biscuits though
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21:08:22 <timlarson> hmm...
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21:14:46 <nighty_> Quartus I may have been discussing Godel, Escher, and Bach. --> the eternal golden braid...
21:14:56 <Quartus> That's the book.
21:15:21 <nighty_> We have the same library I think :)
21:15:30 <nighty_> got plenty other like this :)
21:15:55 <Quartus> I don't have too many others I'd call similar to that one. 
21:15:56 <nighty_> Quartus: lets take bets on what books you have :)
21:16:13 <Quartus> give it a shot.
21:16:49 <nighty_> The golden ratio 
21:16:55 <nighty_> Metamath
21:17:04 <nighty_> The equation that could not be solved
21:17:21 <Quartus> 0 for 3.
21:17:22 <nighty_> NKS
21:18:14 <Quartus> Nope.
21:18:20 <Quartus> Not even sure what that one is.
21:19:47 <Quartus> I'm not a math geek. 
21:20:09 <nighty_> A new kind of science (stephen wolfram)
21:20:14 <nighty_> NKS
21:20:19 <Quartus> ah. Still no.
21:20:47 <nighty_> Codes, Ciphers and Secret Languages (Fred B Wrixton)
21:21:12 <Quartus> No. One or two more obscure books on cryptography.
21:21:48 <Quartus> So far you're 0 for 5.  Keep going. :)
21:21:59 <nighty_> well I loose :)
21:23:11 <Quartus> As regards mathematics, I have a several-volume history of mathematics, some of Polya's stuff, a few other bits & pieces. Not much.
21:24:12 <nighty_>  	
21:24:13 <nighty_> Codebreaker: The History of Codes and Ciphers, from the Ancient Pharaohs to Quantum Cryptography 
21:24:20 <Quartus> no.
21:24:55 <nighty_> The Codebreakers : The Comprehensive History of Secret Communication from Ancient Times to the Internet
21:25:06 <Quartus> Still no.  
21:25:12 <nighty_> pff I am going thru my book cases 
21:25:22 <nighty_> :)
21:25:41 <Quartus> I am not particularly fascinated by cryptography.  A passing interest only.
21:26:13 <nighty_> oh ok 
21:26:21 <nighty_> I don't know then 
21:26:45 <nighty_> I know you have forth books :)
21:26:59 <Quartus> Sorry.  I know programmers are supposed to be into cryptography, mathematics, and Neal Stephenson books.
21:27:12 <nighty_> Neal Stephenson books ? 
21:27:24 <nighty_> I don't know Neal Stephenson
21:27:25 <Quartus> Yes, an author.  Kind of a nerd's nerd.
21:28:21 <nighty_> Well I also have Pascal books (french) 
21:28:26 <nighty_> but I doubt you are reading this
21:28:34 <Quartus> I have one book on Pascal somewhere.
21:28:47 <nighty_> Pascal == Memoires d'outres tombes
21:29:02 <Quartus> Oh, ok.  I thought for a moment you were referring to the programming language.
21:29:23 <nighty_> No 
21:29:27 <nighty_> Blaise Pascal
21:29:32 <Quartus> Right.
21:30:37 <Quartus> There's far more literature in my library than there are textbooks.
21:31:14 <nighty_> Pascal books are not textbooks
21:31:27 <nighty_> Victor Hugo 
21:31:35 <nighty_> or Pline the Ancient
21:31:37 <Quartus> I know.  I have Les Miserables.
21:31:38 <nighty_> neither
21:32:49 <nighty_> Moliere
21:33:04 <nighty_> Maupassant
21:33:06 <nighty_> etc...
21:33:35 <Quartus> Of... nine (? I think it's nine) bookshelves here, about three are technical in nature.
21:33:59 <nighty_> nice
21:34:16 <nighty_> I left many of my books in France
21:34:26 <nighty_> I just took the one I like :)
21:34:30 <nighty_> most
21:34:52 <I440r> y u leave france ?
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21:35:03 <nighty_> I440r: leave ? 
21:35:05 <snowrichard> hello
21:35:19 <I440r> u said u left the books in france
21:35:24 <nighty_> I440r: I still have a home in France :)
21:35:32 <I440r> :)
21:35:38 <I440r> where in france ?
21:35:43 <nighty_> I440r: I live here now and I have a home also here
21:35:52 <nighty_> I440r: I work here in Toronto
21:35:58 <nighty_> I440r: I lived in Reims 
21:36:02 <nighty_> I440r: in France
21:36:11 <I440r> my ex gf was from soumur
21:36:16 <nighty_> saumur
21:36:19 <I440r> i think i spelled that right lol
21:36:38 <I440r> her parents were from angers where they booted teh prodestants out of france lol
21:36:52 <nighty_> saumur , there is good wine there and a very famous horse riding school
21:37:13 <nighty_> le cadre noir de saumur
21:37:33 <nighty_> military cavalry 
21:37:48 <nighty_> I don't know if I spelt it right 
21:38:00 <nighty_> cavalry
21:38:12 <nighty_> cavalerie in French :)
21:38:19 <I440r> yes i know. and a nice castle :)
21:38:25 <nighty_> yes
21:38:43 <I440r> and angers is where they make that orange liqure
21:38:55 <I440r> that i can pronounce but definatly not spell lol
21:39:08 <nighty_> Which one ? 
21:39:49 <I440r> begins with Q
21:40:00 <nighty_> uhmmm
21:40:06 <nighty_> dunno
21:40:09 <Quartus_> courvoisier?
21:40:17 <nighty_> Courvoisier
21:40:21 <I440r> no
21:40:24 <Quartus_> not a q.
21:40:28 <nighty_> it is not orange
21:40:50 <Quartus_> grand marnier?
21:40:51 <I440r> tahts not a liqure :)
21:40:52 <I440r> no
21:40:54 <I440r> hang on
21:41:16 <nighty_> Courvoisier is a sort of Cognac
21:41:19 <nighty_> kind of 
21:42:24 <I440r> Cointreau 
21:42:27 <I440r> i know
21:42:41 <I440r> angers is spelled funny
21:42:50 <I440r> its pronounced onjay
21:42:56 * absentia uses both of those in margaritas.
21:42:58 <nighty_> no
21:43:00 <I440r> french is weird lol
21:43:10 <absentia> worst margarita I ever had was in paris.
21:43:16 <absentia> I wouldn't even call it a margarita.
21:43:26 <nighty_> absentia: paris is not mexico :)
21:43:34 <zpg> "french is weird lol"?
21:43:41 <nighty_> absentia: people seldom drink this
21:43:45 <nighty_> absentia: in Paris
21:43:46 <nighty_> :)
21:44:08 <absentia> ya, ...  I figured.
21:44:09 <I440r> when i was 3 i could speak french
21:44:13 <I440r> i lived in madagasgar
21:46:00 <nighty_> cool
21:47:42 <I440r> madagasgar is one of only two places in the world where vanilla grows.
21:47:55 <I440r> thats why its called FRENCH vanilla
21:48:04 <zpg> in all-capitals?
21:48:22 <I440r> maybe :)
21:48:30 <I440r> madagasgar is a former french colony
21:49:07 <absentia> the nature there is sad ... look at how it's disappearing
21:50:00 * zpg looks
21:50:12 <zpg> night all.
21:50:20 <Quartus_> vanilla grows in a variety of places.
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21:51:21 <absentia> but it doesn't speak french
21:51:22 <Quartus_> it's originally from Mexico.
21:51:34 <absentia> therefore it's not the superior vanilla the world has come to know and love
21:51:36 <I440r> mexico ?
21:51:44 <Quartus_> mexico.
21:51:52 <I440r> its an orchid - they grow orchids in mex ?
21:52:22 <Quartus_> they grow vanilla. It's native to mexico.
21:52:48 <Quartus_> it is cultivated all over, now.
21:54:16 <Quartus_> the spanish brought it from mexico to europe.
21:55:05 <I440r> Because vanilla originally came from Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, and because, at one time Mexico produced the world's finest vanilla, it follows that it would still be true. In fact, nearly all of the so-called vanilla extract coming from these countries is synthetic
21:55:16 <absentia> I did a search for "make c++ tail recursion" .. and hit one of ayrnieu's pages at reddit... some interesting information there -- some of which I've seen before -->  http://reddit.com/user/ayrnieu/?s=highscore
21:55:25 <I440r> thats one vanilla fact i didnt know.
21:56:01 <Quartus_> it's much cheaper to produce synthetic vanilla.  As I recall the fake stuff is a byproduct of paper manufacturing.
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21:56:52 <I440r> also of coal tar
22:00:38 <Quartus_> I think 'French Vanilla' is of marketing origin.  First ice cream, and then coffee.
22:02:44 <I440r> but so called because of madagasgar. the current world leader
22:02:53 <Quartus_> just a way of making vanilla sound exotic :)
22:03:05 <I440r> yup
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23:25:48 <snowrichard> hi
23:25:48 <snowrichard> \
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23:30:24 <snowrichard> hi
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