00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.04
00:01:11 <Cheery> separated virtual machine from other things, I don't know whether it is totally new approach since after I think of it, it is more like an 'change' to the existing design.
00:01:27 <Cheery> oh, and separated everything from others. :)
00:01:59 <Cheery> so there is a clear set of things working together.
00:02:12 <Quartus_> so after a few more revisions, you'll have come right back to standard forth? :-)
00:03:15 <Cheery> I'm not sure, I learned some things can be darn useful, especially with handling big amount of data.
00:05:47 <Cheery> I'm going to watch something possibly brain rotting from TV. I feel too alive today to code.
00:06:53 <Quartus_> James Burke's Connections episodes are available on the web.
00:07:36 <Quartus_> if you're looking for something that doesn't rot.
00:31:56 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth
01:11:33 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:34:49 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth
01:35:13 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:35:56 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth
02:39:49 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
02:39:49 --- join: ASau` (n=user@home-pool-173-2.com2com.ru) joined #forth
02:54:10 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth
02:54:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi
04:44:29 <tathi> hmm...I have thought about doing a minimal Standard Forth to try and "keep people out of the [colorforth] tarpit".
04:44:54 <virl> colorforth == tarpit?
04:45:00 <tathi> But I think it would have to be able to run as a standalone OS, and definitely include its own editor.
04:45:35 <tathi> And probably other colorforth features such as multiple entry points, and tail-call elimination and the other lookback optimizations.
04:46:00 <tathi> And be in the 20 - 36 KB range
04:46:32 <ASau`> virl: You've appeared just with the first chords of "The Gypsy Baron".
04:47:20 <ASau`> Good afternoon.
04:47:31 <tathi> hi Asau
04:48:13 <tathi> virl: I'm chiming in to a conversation from last night which went something like this:
04:48:16 <tathi> <Raystm2> colorforth means using a system that is small enough to grok and you have to search out every little detail for it to make sense.
04:48:19 <tathi> <Quartus> There are very small Standard Forths, too.
04:48:21 <ASau`> Tathi, why do you want yet another minimal std. Forth?
04:48:22 <tathi> <Quartus> How large is colorForth?  Could I actually keep people out of the tarpit by writing a Standard Forth that isn't any larger? :)
04:48:50 <tathi> I don't, particularly.
04:49:03 <ASau`> There're pForth, FICL and... kForth?
04:49:12 <ASau`> Or hForth.
04:49:19 <tathi> I do think you could attract people who would otherwise be using colorforth.
04:49:48 <tathi> But I don't have the hardware, and I don't really have enough interest to write it.
04:50:39 <ASau`> I think we need more public libraries, than OSes or interpreters.
04:50:55 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau
04:51:17 <tathi> sure
04:53:56 <ASau> Reusing POSIX seems to be a must these days.
05:08:07 <ASau> What is conventional name for postincrement fetch ( addr -- addr' x )
05:08:15 <ASau> or ( adddr -- x addr' )?
05:08:42 <ASau> "@+"?
05:09:06 <tathi> I don't know if there is one.
05:09:36 <tathi> for characters, of course, it's COUNT ( c-addr -- c-addr' char )
05:10:10 <tathi> I have called it @+ sometimes.
05:10:59 <ASau> Thanks.
05:19:43 <ASau> What do you think should be the reverse "!+":
05:19:59 <ASau> ( addr x -- addr' ) or ( x addr -- addr') ?
05:20:58 <tathi> ( x addr -- addr' )
05:21:20 <tathi> conventionally anything like a store is ( what where -- )   (Quartus's terminology)
05:21:59 <ASau> Fetch is ( where -- what ) usually, but this is not the case.
05:22:17 <tathi> might lead to more swapping, but I think I'd do it that way for ease of remembering
05:22:53 <tathi> hrm.  I guess it would pretty much always need a swap.
05:23:08 <tathi> so maybe you put the value on top.  I don't know...
05:41:19 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-86b5c29efe70af95) joined #forth
05:59:26 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-179-125-153.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth
06:00:42 <zpg> Hi.
06:01:31 <ASau> Good evening, ygrek, zpg!
06:03:36 <zpg> Hey again ASau 
06:06:47 <ASau> Anything new?
06:07:07 <zpg> nope. yourself?
06:07:47 <ASau> Redesigning Palm DB image processing.
06:08:18 <zpg> for dragonforth?
06:08:31 <ASau> Yes.
06:09:14 <ASau> I think it will be separate product.
06:32:13 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth
06:32:29 <zpg> Hi Ray.
06:38:01 <Ray_work> Good morning, zpg. Hope today finds you well.
06:47:40 <zpg> It does indeed. And yourself?
06:48:13 <Ray_work> I'm well. :) 
06:48:35 <absentia> morn'
06:49:38 --- join: Ray-work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth
06:51:27 <Ray-work> yikes is this thing on?
06:52:01 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm
06:59:50 <ASau> Fun.
07:00:14 <ASau> My face is unique.
07:00:24 <ASau> I get only one result from http://www.myheritage.com/
07:01:03 <ASau> Others get 5-7 matches.
07:01:16 <ASau> Or even more.
07:06:46 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
07:07:33 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection)
07:09:29 --- nick: Ray-work -> Ray_work
07:28:06 --- quit: Al2O3 ("Leaving")
07:39:23 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-5e4897f149ddf688) joined #forth
08:00:43 <Quartus> Hey.
08:01:51 <zpg> hi Q
08:01:53 <Ray_work> Hi Quartus :)
08:02:00 <Quartus> Hi guys.
08:07:36 <Ray_work> Quartus; have you had chance to see any of the vids yet?
08:07:55 <Quartus> About half.  I have seen the series before when it was on TV.
08:08:00 <Ray_work> sure. :)
08:08:29 <Ray_work> I've seen it twice now. I always pick up something i missed, or something that can be extened out from the idea.
08:12:03 <zpg> what're you watching?
08:15:39 <Quartus> James Burke's "Connections"
08:36:22 <Ray_work> Putting the linearity back in history.
08:36:38 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc")
08:36:48 <Ray_work> zpg that was that chat I invited you to the other day. 
08:37:04 <Ray_work> has the links for the vids in the topic.
08:37:09 <Quartus> I don't know -- he deliberately follows one line in each show, but he sometimes makes mention of the lines he chose not to discuss that time.
08:38:51 <Ray_work> I know what you mean, about following one line, but I think you may find that there are many lines being followed.
08:39:14 <Ray_work> We see the entire development of many things... 
08:39:17 <Ray_work> Ships.
08:39:37 <Ray_work> clocks.
08:39:46 <Ray_work> aircraft.
08:39:53 <Ray_work> much is in the margins.
08:39:59 <Quartus> But in reference to 'putting the linearity back into history', I'm saying it's not a line, it's a web, and he traces specific lines through it.
08:40:14 <Ray_work> ah thanks, I got you now.
08:40:28 <Ray_work> that was an unfortunate turn of phrase by me. :)
08:40:46 <Quartus> :)
08:43:47 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth
08:43:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_
08:44:44 <zpg> Ray_work: ah okay, good stuff.
09:00:37 <virl> ever tried looking glass the 3d desktop?
09:00:59 <virl> "bringing richer experience to the desktop"
09:01:38 <virl> that reads like a preview for a computer game
09:03:52 <zpg> i've not tried it, just seen the video demonstrations.
09:04:22 <zpg> i'd prefer my resources be used for something other than eye candy though.
09:05:11 <Quartus> tathi, the optimizations are invisible to the newbie. Are multiple-entry-points really one of the 'big draws' for cf?
09:07:59 <Quartus> : foo ... : bar ... ;   is only a rearrangement of      : bar ... ;    : foo ... bar ;
09:09:13 <Quartus> And one that couples the two words by proximity, while eliminating the possibility of certain compiler security checks.
09:13:26 <tathi> dunno.  Drake made a big deal out of multiple entry points on that thread, I thought.
09:13:38 <tathi> I know people have mentioned it on the email list.
09:14:16 <Quartus> If you allow it, you can no longer check to see whether a ; is missing from a definition.
09:14:18 <tathi> And I've seen newbies comment that they liked that it produced "optimized native code"
09:14:39 <Quartus> Any compiler can produce optimized native code.
09:15:09 <tathi> that was in response to "optimizations are invisible to the newbie"
09:16:04 <tathi> you could do without optimizations and multiple entry points, I was just thinking that including them would give the colorforth crazies less points to argue against it.
09:17:13 <Quartus_> right.
09:18:11 <Quartus_> perhaps a brief education on what you lose with that syntax for multiple entry points would be valuable to newcomers.
09:20:22 --- quit: zpg ("back shortly")
09:37:39 <Ray_work> Certainly agree there Quartus.
09:40:24 <Ray_work> I see multiple entry points as only a space saving device, or a way to name and use the last phrase or phrases in a word.
09:40:46 <Ray_work> it's clever when you want to do something like...
09:41:41 <Ray_work> : printer initialize 
09:41:41 <Ray_work> : type unpack emit type ; 
09:46:02 <Ray_work> well, put some sort of exit in there.
10:01:34 --- join: tattrdkat (n=virsys@or-71-54-194-74.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth
10:15:24 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:48:22 <Quartus_> but functionally identical to  : type ... ; : printer type ; 
10:48:33 <Quartus_> er, : printer initialize type ;
10:50:05 <Ray_work> yes indeed.
11:01:28 <Quartus_> esp. as a given compiler could optimize type within printer -- tail call at least, inlined at most.
11:16:21 <Quartus_> Another advantage comes to mind -- when factoring as per normal Forth, factors can be stored and used independently. With multiple entry point factoring, you have to compile the outermost code in order to compile the innermost.
11:18:08 <Quartus_> whether you have any need for the outermost, or not. And subsequent use of those factors occurs just as per normal Forth anyway, 
11:18:13 <Ray_work> sure, that's true, but the context is you won't find a multi-entrant word in say a macro block. you only find it in context of the current program and you would do well to factor it out when possible.
11:18:29 <Quartus_> unless you keep adding layers to the original source, which strikes me as absurd.
11:19:03 <Ray_work> right. absurd in the context of that environment. You don't get mountains of code that you don't recognise, you know every word.
11:19:35 <Quartus_> And, the technique is only viable for factors that come at the tail of another factor.
11:20:20 <Quartus_> ray, I'm just wondering where the excitement over the feature comes from. It seems to offer little while removing much.
11:21:13 <Ray_work> I think it goes back to a statment I made yesterday about the "walk of love". Ever heard that phrase before?
11:21:29 <Quartus_> no.
11:21:34 <Ray_work> its something newbie christians can relate to.
11:21:53 <Ray_work> when you first find Jesus, or hey a great girl even... 
11:22:00 <Ray_work> you walk on air.
11:22:03 <Quartus_> is this about the wonderful plan Moore has for my life? :) is there a magazine subscription involved? :)
11:23:06 <Quartus_> ah, so it is about that. Ray, I don't consider programming languages in terms of religious ecstacy.
11:27:07 <Ray_work> No, I don't as well, but there seems to be this undo excitement about some of these concepts and the closest thing I can relate it to... :)
11:28:11 <Quartus_> I'm looking for specifics, not some vague feeling of joy over a syntactic construction.
11:31:31 <Quartus_> Specific advantages vs. disadvantages.
11:31:45 <Ray_work> certainly. I'll do my best to help you find them. :)
11:32:33 <tathi> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/772095b11cdb59c0
11:32:35 <tathi> :)
11:32:36 <Quartus_> when I say 'what's the draw', I'm looking for some reason other than that the excited programmer lacks the experience to properly evaluate the feature!
11:33:06 <Quartus_> tathi, I have to read that later; no easy way to use that link from here.
11:34:04 <tathi> nothing serious, just Jeff Fox arguing for multiple entry points.
11:34:21 <Quartus_> ah. 
11:34:31 <Quartus_> anything cogent?
11:34:57 <Ray_work> Quartus, funny you say that. I think that most people still interested in the system ( outside of Intellasys) just might be the kind of person not capable of evaluating the system. I certainly couldn't.
11:35:26 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth
11:36:38 <Quartus_> multiple entry points iin cf seems to be not so much by design, as accidentally there because of the complete absence of compiler security.
11:37:13 <tathi> no, I don't think so.  "Clearly <code without multiple entry> is more work for the programmer, is more to read, is harder to understand, is slower to compile, compiles more code, and produces code that is slower."
11:37:26 <Ray_work> Yes. Great point. It is claimed that the programmer is responsible for his code in that system.
11:37:32 <Quartus_> tathi, oh. So nothing cogent.
11:37:45 <Ray_work> hehe. 
11:37:50 <Quartus_> "argument by vigorous assertion"
11:38:05 * Ray_work loves Quartus' sence of humor.
11:38:13 <Ray_work> there is that as well.
11:38:28 <Ray_work> I"M LOUDER SO I"M RIGTH!! DARN YOU!!
11:38:39 <Quartus_> well, really. He's just spouting off groundlessly.
11:38:47 <Ray_work> and yes that's how you spell rigth. :)
11:38:53 <Ray_work> who?
11:38:56 <Quartus_> heh
11:38:57 <Ray_work> oh Jd?
11:39:01 <Quartus_> Fox
11:39:11 <Ray_work> well, ya. You tried to warn me.
11:39:59 <Ray_work> He's might be too close to be objective, or possibly have marketing in mind.
11:40:28 <Quartus_> or he's as daft as a bag of hammer handles.
11:42:25 <Ray_work> What is Jeff's claim to fame, any body know? Did he make some bundle of money at an early age or something?
11:43:29 <Quartus_> I have no idea of his history.  Filled with death threats and life experiences I could not begin to imagine, according to him.
11:45:21 <Quartus_> anyway bringing Fox into a discussion of cf's merits is like soliciting Carrot Top's opinion on nuclear policy.  I'm interested in the simple facts.
11:46:03 <tathi> there don't appear to be many.
11:48:02 <tathi> the only thing anyone really said in support was that it would save space taken by the jump (or call) to the child word.
11:48:26 <Ray_work> The 
11:48:41 <tathi> and that in very tight embedded environments it could matter.
11:48:50 <Quartus_> I've reviewed the keyboard, the necessity of the integrated editor, the huffman encoding, the absence of any but a couple of control-flow words, the multiple-entry, the jump tables. Am I missing anything?
11:49:12 <tathi> what about jump tables?
11:49:21 <Quartus_> they're there.
11:49:31 <tathi> oh.
11:49:42 <Quartus_> touted as a progressive feature.
11:50:16 <jackokring> they may need help over on #moderncalcs (users boost) with RPN some day ;)
11:50:26 <Quartus_> oh, and the color. I have to put aside the color to review the rest of it at all.
11:52:12 <tathi> in the original, there's the fact that it runs only on a very limited set of machines
11:52:21 <Quartus_> true
11:52:32 <Ray_work> The perceived benefit is not in the nearly forth like language, but in the system entire. The way we code and factor. You can take all of the pieces, one by one and poo poo them, certainly, but in concert there is a system there that one can use very easily, understand easily, factor easily, and most important ( just comes to mind here but iv'e thougth of this before ) there is a security-thru-obscurity in the system. 
11:52:37 <Quartus_> but am I missing any other proclaimed greatness?
11:52:45 <tathi> other than that, I can't think of anything you're missing
11:53:24 <Quartus_> ray, understand easily compared with what? Use easily compared with what? Factor more easily compared with what?
11:53:41 <Quartus_> security-through-obscurity is hardly a plus.
11:53:46 <Ray_work> Quartus, remember, I was able to pick it up before even forth.
11:54:34 <Quartus_> ray, ok. Can you quantify why you found cf more accessible than forth? Or was it simply that you tried it first?
11:54:57 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E06A77.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
11:55:18 <Ray_work> arke, please help Quartus find the reason for colorforth. :)
11:55:55 <arke_> the reason? :>
11:56:01 <arke_> fun :D
11:56:07 <Ray_work> Yes, I'll try. 
11:56:11 <arke_> what exactly do you mean?
11:56:33 <arke_> I think coding in colorforth is something everybody should have done at least once simply becuase its so different.
11:56:51 <Ray_work> Quartus seems to be gathering information to put what others are saying about colorforth into perspective.
11:57:08 <Quartus_> much the same way they should try driving blindfolded, or eating paint?
11:57:18 <Ray_work> lead paint. 
11:58:44 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.)
11:58:53 --- nick: arke_ -> arke
11:59:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke
11:59:24 <Quartus_> I maintain cf is not 'so different'; it is merely slightly eccentric and extremely limited.
12:00:36 <Ray_work> quantify cf accessibility:  I found several forths early on. included where the eval version of MPV, win32, gforth, and windows colorforth. of all of those they all started easily right out of the box. Windows colorforth was the easiest of all to use, once I got past the keyboard, which took about an hour. continues...
12:00:54 <Quartus_> It also suffers of some unfortunate design decisions.
12:04:41 <Ray_work> The others had a bevey of things that took me some learning to understand. first of all, I didn't get what a : was for a while. I didn't know where to find the words in the other three systems for a while. then I found the ans listing in win32 help file. then I learned how vast the win32 and gforth systems were. so I concentrated on MVP to get my teeth in, it came with a tutorial that I could understand. continues.
12:06:57 <Ray_work> sorry tad busy here hard to concentrate. :)
12:08:14 <JasonWoof> Ray_work: it's a little different trying forths when you already know fort
12:08:16 <JasonWoof> h
12:08:20 <Quartus_> ray, colorforth has neither documentation nor tutorial, right?
12:08:36 <JasonWoof> if you already know the basic ans forth
12:08:45 <JasonWoof> you can pop open most forths and just start using them
12:08:50 <JasonWoof> no documentation or reading required
12:08:55 <Quartus_> or forth-79, or fig-forth, or forth-83
12:09:00 <JasonWoof> right
12:09:16 <JasonWoof> thus, for most people in here the learning curve of a standard-ish forth is very nice
12:09:30 <JasonWoof> ok, I gotta hop in a car for a sec. bbiab
12:27:41 --- quit: ygrek ()
12:29:09 <Ray_work> Quartus: colorforth always had colorforth.com and 'some' documentation on Jeff's site, a description by Dr. Ting of the okad system, and of course, the mailing list. 
12:29:21 <Ray_work> As I recall, I actually found colorforth first.
12:29:31 <Quartus> Which is a fart in a windstorm to what's available for normal Forth.
12:29:37 <Ray_work> true. 
12:29:39 <Quartus> Ok. So you found it first.
12:29:55 <Ray_work> I found it before I found even python or lisp.
12:30:02 <Ray_work> 10 years ago.
12:30:10 <Ray_work> Couldn't get it running then.
12:32:18 <Ray_work> 5 or 6 years go by and I found the windows version. Id been programming in python, c, lisp, scheme, others, during that time period, and was actually trying to aviod forth because of language comparisons that I realize now were most likely written by people who have never forth, tho I remember one of those saying, "People who forth sometimes never return to there 'mother tongue'.
12:34:02 <Ray_work> I had it in the back of my mind to learn the system for many years, the goal being to write a chess in it, being that Chuck had listed several applications that he'd like to see coded, tho I don't recall chess being one of them.
12:34:33 <Ray_work> So it was really a challenge to myself to beable to use the system.
12:34:40 <Ray_work> I've exceed that challenge, I think.
12:34:54 <Ray_work> surmounted even.
12:35:56 <Quartus> So you didn't say "hey, a barely documented system that crashes a lot, is hard to get running, with an extremely limited user base-- WOW! This puts everything else to shame!" :)
12:36:14 <Ray_work> I couldn't write the chess in it right away so I had to learn forth to learn colorforth. 
12:36:39 <Ray_work> hehe no Quartus i've never said that, I'm certain. :)
12:37:08 <Ray_work> I learned MVP next, then win32, then gforth and I wrote b18chess in gforth first. 
12:37:33 <absentia> :-)
12:38:34 <Quartus> So you may be the wrong person to ask, Ray_work. What I'm really not clear on is why a newcomer to Forth would look at normal Forths, and then decide that no, colorForth is much more appealing, and bolt off in that direction like a cat who hears a can-opener.
12:39:25 <Quartus> We see them come to this channel from time to time.  "I'd like to learn Forth."  "Oh, an estoteric, difficult, and barely useful variant!  At last, sweet mystery of life, I've found you!"
12:40:54 <Quartus> And then they usually drop off the edge of the cliff in that direction.
12:41:27 <Ray_work> hahaha.. :)
12:41:33 <Ray_work> bz again brb
12:42:35 <tathi> hrm.  I always feel like those folks have found Forth through Moore or Fox's site, and are already off in that direction.
12:42:49 <tathi> rather than just being folks who are looking to learn Forth in general.
12:43:04 <tathi> But maybe I'm just making that up.
12:43:08 <Quartus> well, we have someone right here who is new to Forth, yet exhibits some measure of the same effect.  Absentia.  
12:43:36 <Quartus> I mentioned Chuck Moore's forays into programming without source code (!) and he was very interested to know more about it.
12:43:50 <Quartus> I'm afraid to mention Chuck's 7-key keyboard efforts.
12:44:00 <Quartus> Or the 256-char display dealie.
12:44:22 <tathi> hmm.  OK, you're right
12:44:26 <tathi> as usual
12:44:33 <absentia> <--
12:45:01 <Quartus> tathi, you've met more colorForthers than I have, and it may well be that most of them take that road at the outset, rather than by preference.
12:45:05 <absentia> you'll find that I'm not interested in 7key or 256char
12:45:18 <absentia> you'll find that I'm intereted in someone talking in ##C++ about better ways to code.
12:45:32 <absentia> don't misattribute too much.
12:46:29 <absentia> I came in, found a language with the same issue[s] that scheme has -- (too) many dialects... got enough information to look around -- looked around...  attempted to make an educated decision.  I did decide that colorforth was not only practically useless, it was completel useless -- for me.
12:46:48 <Quartus> absentia, given that I have no idea what motivates your interest in minimalist adventures in programming, any more than I understand why somebody would head off toward colorForth as a preference, I am not misattributing; you may well take a great interest in Moore's other minimalist investigations.
12:47:23 <Quartus> I don't know.  I claim considerable lack of knowledge as to why anybody would give the ass of a rat about that stuff.
12:47:52 <tathi> I'd agree with lack of knowledge, for sure.
12:48:05 <Quartus> I'm actually interested in knowing.
12:48:35 <absentia> 'k
12:48:37 <Quartus> It may be that I'm too far removed from being a newcomer to see what the paths-of-least-resistance appear to be from that perspective.
12:49:41 <absentia> ya
12:49:51 <Quartus> From where I sit, it appears that the things newcomers complain of as obstacles to Forth are magnified in colorForth, not diminished.  More closed doors, and fewer open ones.  Hence the mystery.
12:50:10 <absentia> right
12:50:20 <absentia> I agree with that
12:50:57 <Quartus> So my question: why would any newcomer decide Forth was hard, but that colorForth was easier?
12:52:08 <TreyB> IMO, colorForth represents a return to the brutally simple compute environments of the C64 and Apple ][.  It exposes fewer features and thus reduces the conceptual hurdles.  It does so at a price, though.
12:52:13 <Quartus> Are the so-called obstacles to Forth incorrectly identified?  Does eccentricity and novelty count for more than facility and good design?
12:52:47 <Quartus> TreyB, there were good Forths for both of those platforms, simple though the platforms were.
12:54:10 <absentia> apple and atari (c64?=6510?) were 65c02 ... 8bit assembly...  they were not that difficult, and appear to be much more capable than colorforth
12:54:23 <absentia> I always like that fact that my atari st had a 65c02 to control its keyboard... 
12:54:30 <TreyB> Quartus: Sure.  I never got to use any, but I suspect they presented a nice environment.
12:54:44 <Quartus> 65xx assembly has 50-odd machine language instructions.
12:54:51 <absentia> I have seen simple forths on just about every platform I have ever used.
12:57:57 <TreyB> I think folks would have as much fun using an older (or even ANS) Forth on an Apple/Commadore/Atari/MAME emualtor as they do with colorForth.
12:58:25 <Quartus> The skills they learn would be more readily transportable, I daresay.
13:00:21 <TreyB> I considered colorForth interesting at first, but I've come to like the all-umbilical-all-the-time idea behind Holon Forth and some of the MPE/Forth, Inc. commercial offerings.
13:01:03 <Quartus> Umbilical Forths are a powerful way to write embedded software.
13:01:26 <TreyB> I think they would make just as powerful a way to write desktop software.
13:01:54 <Quartus> What benefit does an umbilical Forth provide when you're working in the same hosted environment as the target app?
13:02:50 <Quartus> I just wrote this -- multiple-entry-points for Gforth 0.6.2: http://forth.pastebin.ca/305477
13:03:05 <Quartus> After that,       : foo 3 . bar 4 . ;        foo -> 3 4    bar -> 4
13:03:22 <TreyB> For one, you have the same environment regardless of the target.  Not everyone would find this useful.
13:03:55 <TreyB> You also gain from the memory protection that separate processes have on modern OSes.
13:04:07 <Quartus> TreyB, *maybe* you do.  Same development environment, but different target considerations.
13:04:21 <TreyB> (makes it hard to stomp on your dev environment in a rougue program)
13:04:24 <Quartus> Oh, yes, of course hosted Forths gain all the advantages of the host OS.
13:06:01 <TreyB> Anyhow, most of these variations have their place.  I wouldn't push folks towards colorForth today.
13:06:11 <Quartus> Indeed.
13:07:38 <TreyB> Given the requirement of extending the editor in order to extend the langugae, colorForth looks a lot more like C/perl/etc. than traditional Forth.
13:08:15 <Ray_work> No one wants to push anybody towards insanity. I'm certain, that in your comparison, you will find that colorForth is a forth and therefore can do what a forth can do, save that someone is going to have to do it for you if you can't.
13:08:24 <Quartus> The multiple-entry code above comes at two costs. First, the system will not detect a number of circumstances where ; is accidentally left off of a definition. Second, : is now immediate.  The implementation details are that the enclosing factor has branch instruction in it, but that's just the way I threw it together.
13:09:36 <Ray_work> TreyB I extend the colorForth langauge with the cunning use of 'LATER' with out haveing to hack the editor. I suppose you mean to add a new color, like brown for html or something.
13:21:11 <virl> oh, my god. colorforth == tarpit discussion?
13:21:12 <TreyB> Ray_work: do you have a way to implement, say, miniOOF?
13:24:59 <Quartus> cf doesn't have anything like parsing, so I'm not sure where you'd even start.
13:25:12 <virl> what's the difference between mini OO and normal?
13:25:36 <Quartus> The mini one is smaller.
13:25:38 <TreyB> Quartus: hence my comparison to C/perl - you have to change the editor in cf and the parser in the others.
13:25:48 <Quartus> TreyB, more like statically-defined syntax, yes.
13:26:02 <TreyB> Which makes it way less Forth-like, IMHO.
13:26:33 <Quartus> Yes. The limitations inherent in editor become part of the language definition.
13:27:20 <virl> well, what is forth? that chucks thinks or what a commitee says?
13:27:59 <TreyB> "I may not know art, but I know what I like!"  J. Cleese, as The Pope.
13:28:46 <Ray_work> TreyB, i'm assuming that miniOOF is an object system.
13:29:09 <virl> so the users? or the single person who use it?
13:31:13 <Ray_work> No there is nothing like an object system, but if you ask some diehard cf coders that sware that they treat their blocks like objects. The jump table gives access to different words in the block like picking a function. The object name might be like a block load command and take a jump offset, execute it's code and then maybe even EMPTY the block right back out of memory.
13:31:30 <TreyB> Ray_work: Yeah, Bernd or Anton's oop-in-one-block.
13:46:39 <Quartus> Ray_work, it isn't about perception, it's about whether cf can be extended in that way.
13:46:59 <Quartus> Facts, not feelings of love and joy about how deliciously the handcuffs bite into the wrist. :)
13:48:07 <Ray_work> ooh you hurt me so good. :)
13:48:58 <Quartus> MiniOOF is just one example of an extension. There are many others.  For instance, you recall my BNF code, that lets me write    BNF: <digits> '.' <digits> ;BNF  
13:49:15 <Quartus> That's a mini-language written in Standard Forth.
13:49:48 <Quartus> It requires a kind of extensibility that it seems would be pretty difficult in cf.
13:49:58 <Ray_work> I stand by the idea that cf is a forth and can do what a forth can do, till you tell me it can't and then i still might not believe you. hehe lol :)
13:50:02 <Quartus> But which is a powerful part of conventional Forth.
13:50:54 <Quartus> If by 'do what a forth can do', you mean if you wrote a conventional Forth using cf, and then used that to write your code, then sure. :)
13:51:20 <Ray_work> That's exactly what i mean :)
13:51:29 <Quartus> Which is ridiculous.
13:51:33 <Ray_work> If you can get there from here, how lost can you be?
13:51:40 <tathi> Ray_work: you can't do text parsing from the source code in colorforth.
13:51:54 <Quartus> You can get to outerspace from your front door, Ray.  It's about an hour's drive straight up.
13:52:22 <tathi> possibly much closer than that :P
13:52:45 <Quartus> Just as close, but if you drive over the straight-up speed limit, you might get there sooner.
13:54:48 * TreyB bails for an errand.
13:56:36 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
14:01:00 <Ray_work> I'm already standing in space. This atmosphere doesn't fool me.
14:01:09 <Quartus> But you take my point.
14:02:28 <Ray_work> http://www.inventio.co.uk/colorForth%20and%20the%20Art%20of%20the%20Impossible.htm
14:03:21 <Quartus> I've read that.  It culminates in a bizarre rationalization that somehow colorForth is what aliens would use.
14:03:59 <Ray_work> tathi: I think it's more proper to say that you can't do text parsing from the 'current' source code in colorforth. But then there is block 232 in windows colorforth where Roman does such a thing. And there is Howerd Oakfords work in HTML.
14:04:42 <tathi> but you can't even ENTER plain text unless you modify the editor
14:05:30 <tathi> the point isn't what you CAN do, with enough work, the point is that you shouldn't have to do all that work in the first place. :)
14:06:02 <Quartus> Yes. To my point about outer space.  Your car won't drive straight up?  Well, build a rocket.  There are raw materials all around you.  Here's a teaspoon and a book of matches to get you started.
14:09:09 <Ray_work> tathi, block 48 will enter plain ascii for you.
14:09:55 <Quartus> Come to think of it, colorForth might well explain why aliens aren't all over the place here; if the best they can do is a badly-designed and poorly-implemented programming environment, they'd never get off the ground.
14:10:07 <Ray_work> hehe. 
14:10:19 <Quartus> Even if they're typing with all 27 fingers.
14:10:53 <tathi> Ray_work: er...but only the colorforth characters, it looks like.  No < > etc.
14:13:27 <Quartus> upper and lower-case?  Or just the one?
14:13:56 <Ray_work> tathi, I can only imagine communicating with colorforth with it's own character set, but, still you can extend that block to include the ascii codes you require.
14:14:39 <Ray_work> just because you can't type them in colorforth doesn't mean you can't transfer a file originated in colorforth that would include the missing chars
14:14:52 <Ray_work> you just include the codes.
14:15:14 <tathi> yes, like I said.  You can't easily enter plain text without extending the editor.
14:15:31 <Quartus> Ray_work, doesn't it actually hurt you to say something like that? Doesn't the sheer amount of absurdity actually cause physical pain? :)
14:15:47 <Ray_work> agreed. but not that hard. seems like many would go qwerty anyway...
14:16:01 <Ray_work> I thought it was my tooth. :)
14:16:09 <Quartus> My tooth, too, apparently.
14:16:28 <Ray_work> kiss me good bye i'm trying to get out of here 1hour early.
14:16:34 <Quartus> take it easy, pal.
14:16:44 <Quartus> So nobody commented on my multiple-entry-point code for Gforth.
14:18:34 <Ray_work> I will try it when I get to the house. Looks great.
14:20:52 --- join: frunobulax (n=mhx@f233149.upc-f.chello.nl) joined #forth
14:22:44 <tathi> I don't know exactly what the three cells on the rstack are, but other than that it's pretty clear.
14:22:55 <tathi> And obviously I don't need to know what they are to use it :)
14:24:04 <frunobulax> Anybody familiar with http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/forth/euro/ef05/pelc05.pdf -- XML, SOAP and Web services in Forth?
14:24:06 <Quartus> Right.  It's Gforth, it puts 3 items on the stack for every dest or orig.  Not sure why.
14:24:25 <tathi> yikes.  I thought it was only two.
14:24:59 <tathi> frunobulax: not me...
14:26:00 <Quartus> Nope, three. No clue why really.  One does the trick.
14:34:44 <Quartus> Bit more stuff: http://forth.pastebin.ca/305693
14:35:32 <Quartus> That's an honest-to-goodness tail-call-eliminated tail-recurse.
14:36:27 <tathi> heh
14:36:42 <Quartus> Just a branch to the start of the word, from wherever it's used.
14:36:56 <tathi> so I see
14:38:29 <Quartus> What else would you like?  An address register maybe?
14:39:34 <tathi> :)
14:42:30 <Quartus> I'm not sure how I'd replicate -if and such easily, but I consider them abominations at any rate.
14:43:20 <Quartus> A global flags register instead of actual flags on the stack is not progress.
14:43:59 <Quartus> I also don't know how I'd cut Gforth down to only 48 source characters, and the huffman thing would be tricky.  I can probably butcher the keyboard input, though.
14:48:19 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
14:59:00 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
14:59:15 <Raystm2> Ya, Quartus: that looks good.
14:59:45 <Raystm2> don't bother getting only 48 chars, besides there are 96 so ...
15:00:16 <Quartus> So further to my inquiry.  Installing these kinds of features is trivial in a Forth.  Likewise, handcuffing yourself to a limited set of tools is a matter of choice, whether you do it by choosing a system that provides only a limited set, or by choosing to limit yourself to a subset in another system.
15:00:37 <Quartus> Raystm2, only 48 source symbols, as far as I know?
15:01:27 <Raystm2> 96, there are the caps of many of the symbols.
15:01:51 <Quartus> Luxury.
15:02:40 <Raystm2> infact, all of the symbols have a 'cap' even if not needed. the cap of the space is the cursor and then there is one more icon which is the inverted blank.
15:03:20 <Quartus> As I read it, it's the entire cell that's marked as caps or not, not the individual symbols.
15:03:42 <Quartus> All 28 bits of huffman-encoded goodness.
15:04:06 <Quartus> Or am I missing something?
15:04:11 <Raystm2> I suppose that's your answer. You can have as many chars as you like so long as you extend the 'shifting' routines.
15:04:54 <Raystm2> which just increments the offset to icons by multilples of 48 i'm sure.
15:04:57 <Quartus> Well, I can't trivially retrofit that level of stupidity into Gforth.  I'd have to go well back and take a run at it.
15:05:18 * Raystm2 loves your turn of phrase.
15:05:46 <Quartus> :)
15:06:02 <Raystm2> I really do. I like to read you. :)
15:06:08 <Raystm2> I can't wait for the book. 
15:06:49 <Quartus> Live to serve.  So there's my mini colorForth.  ;then tail-recurse and multiple-entry-points.  I could hack the dictionary to cause name collisions after 5 characters, but probably won't. :)
15:07:11 <Raystm2> hahaha
15:07:16 <Raystm2> you should.
15:07:36 <Raystm2> I mean, make it as close to spec as possible to high-light the 'features'.
15:07:39 <Quartus> Hey, why not just flatly disallow names more than 4 chars long?  Surely that will improve our coding skills!
15:08:17 --- quit: frunobulax ("a quit that really quits")
15:09:47 <Quartus> If I were going to make serious use of any of these features -- I'm not, by the way -- I wouldn't redefine : but rather define :: or something for the sub-factors.  So as not to blow the : semantics out of the water needlessly.
15:10:02 <Quartus> You'd also get visual indication that you were defining an additional entry point.
15:10:14 <Raystm2> neat.
15:11:13 <Quartus> In my opinion multiple-entry-points offers no advantage over normal factoring, and in fact loses you some ground.  I can manage a begin/again loop myself on the rare occasion that I want tail-recursion, and ;then is syntactic sugar for 'exit then', which I can also manage unaided.
15:12:24 <Quartus> So what other gripping features am I missing?  Circular stacks, aka stacks that you can't determine the depth of?
15:13:22 <tathi> heh.  those are only on his chips.
15:13:41 <Quartus> Really? Oakford's 'colorForth is what aliens use' goes on about them.
15:14:46 <tathi> ya
15:15:01 <Quartus> ok.
15:15:45 <tathi> well, that just goes to show you how much he knows about colorforth :)
15:15:51 <Quartus> I guess.
15:19:17 * Raystm2 has defined exit in colorforth as ...
15:19:17 <Raystm2> : setflag ( inline these ) 0 or drop ;
15:19:17 <Raystm2> : exit ( inline everything save the last ; ) setflag if ; then ;
15:20:31 <Raystm2> Taco Bell, anyone?
15:20:32 <Raystm2> brb
15:20:33 <Quartus> what does that do? Save and restore the global flag status?
15:21:17 <Raystm2> if is non-consuming and tests flags. 0 or sets the flag and drop drops the stack, obviously. if test the flag and decides from there.
15:21:30 <Raystm2> or in cf is xor
15:21:51 <Quartus> ok. I can't follow that code.
15:22:01 <Quartus> What is it meant to do?
15:22:10 <Raystm2> its EXIT
15:22:25 <Quartus> ; is EXIT in cf. How is this different?
15:22:38 <Raystm2> no ; is return or jump
15:22:56 <Quartus> Which is what the semantics of the Standard EXIT are, broadly speaking.
15:23:19 <Quartus> Is this some kind of conditional EXIT?
15:23:25 <Raystm2> did not know aht. :) 
15:23:31 <tathi> oh, that's ?EXIT, I think.
15:23:48 <Raystm2> ya or 0; in retroforth. 
15:23:59 <Quartus> oh ok
15:24:16 <Quartus> Yes, cf's ; is pretty much synonymous with EXIT in Standard Forth.
15:24:17 <Raystm2> sorry, much for me too learn still :)
15:24:33 <Raystm2> like how to spell to. 
15:24:42 <Raystm2> gg
15:24:47 <Quartus> good game?
15:25:37 <Raystm2> sorry, that's Morse for going or gotta go.
15:25:42 <Quartus> k
15:32:47 <JasonWoof> Since CF foesn't have a STATE, ; and EXIT do the same thing
15:32:52 <JasonWoof> cf uses ;
15:33:04 <Quartus> right
15:38:09 <Raystm2> and I suppose i coded 0; for it. /me goes back into all of my code and changes the name from EXIT to 0;.
15:38:53 <Quartus> 0; is one of the rf names I find completely unintuitive. I have to stop and recall what it is every time I see it.
15:40:05 <JasonWoof> 0; usually does something very different from EXIT
15:40:21 <JasonWoof> 0; is a conditional exit
15:40:29 <Quartus> Raystm2's EXIT was conditional, too.
15:40:43 <JasonWoof> oh
15:40:48 <JasonWoof> weird
15:41:02 <Quartus> not the weirdest thing we discussed today. :)
15:42:50 <Raystm2> the weirdest thing i read today was a car that can drive straight up into outer space. :)
15:43:58 <Raystm2> i see 0; as return on 0 only.
15:44:16 <Quartus> maybe. But what does it do with the 0? Eat it? Leave it?
15:45:02 <Raystm2> drops it off the stack. I made mine consuming.
15:45:31 <Quartus> And if the top-of-stack isn't zero, does it leave it? Consume it?
15:45:42 <Raystm2> consume.
15:46:53 <Quartus> Nar har, earthling!  Rf's does *not* consume the non-zero.  And *again*, I had to look it up.
15:47:26 <Raystm2> wait, it does if it exits and doesn't if it doesn't, right?
15:47:59 <Quartus> you see the source of my continued confusion.
15:48:11 <Raystm2> oh hey, I stay that way. :)
15:48:32 <Raystm2> crc where are ya?
15:50:26 <Raystm2> found it.
15:50:56 <Raystm2> consumes on exit, non-consuming on continuation.
15:51:16 * Raystm2 changes his 0; name to ?EXIT
15:52:09 <Raystm2> crc's version makes the most sence to me, i've used it successfully in retroforth and I like it, it's got a nice beat I give it a 93.
15:53:01 <Raystm2> ya'll are way too young to remember Bandstand.
15:53:38 * Raystm2 's references age him *
15:54:00 <Quartus> I'm not.
15:55:48 <Raystm2> oh Quartus. you may have been right about something that i didn't really consider.
15:56:02 <Quartus> Was it the car going straight up?
15:56:22 <Raystm2> Sure there are caps, they arn't used in word names, only in white text.
15:56:32 <Quartus> Ok.
15:56:52 <Raystm2> returns us to 48 available icons for coding.
15:57:07 <Raystm2> an additional 48 for text
15:57:26 <virl> circular stacks are supposed to be 'bad' I don't see the point why.
15:57:50 <Quartus> You don't program in Forth.
15:58:14 <Raystm2> I don't recall seeing circular stacks in the code.
15:58:35 <Quartus> Raystm2, it was on Oakford's page, but tathi pointed out that it is actually specific to Chuck's forth chips.
15:58:38 <Raystm2> It may have been spoken about or used at one time, but I don't recognise it if its in the asm.
15:58:45 <Raystm2> yes, i saw that too.
15:58:55 <Raystm2> ah okay, thanks.
15:59:14 <virl> I program in forth.
15:59:36 <Raystm2> I program indoors.
16:00:44 <Quartus> not according to you, you don't.  "#forth.freenode.20061227.log:[18:25] <virl> I write code, but not in Forth, because it's not the envireonment to write code which I would like to be."
16:02:13 <virl> that ment that I code most of the time in other languages.
16:03:34 <virl> and that Forth isn't as practical at the moment like languages like C, Perl, Python, etc.
16:03:47 <Quartus> And you went on to say that most of the time, you use C and C++. Neither of which expose stacks.  Which is fine, but this may well be why you don't see the down side of circular stacks.
16:05:03 <Raystm2> What the pointer just resets to the physical top of stack after it passes the limit?
16:05:26 <Raystm2> No overflow? Or underflow?
16:05:33 <Quartus> Right.  Just goes round and round.
16:05:34 <virl> hmm? what could it be, perhaps the fact that it overwrites old values when some idiot uses more elements than the stack has?
16:06:57 <Quartus> That's not the problem, though it would be harder to detect that bug when it did happen.  The problem is the same one rf has, in its raw form -- .s doesn't show you how many items are on the stack.  So you can't tell if there's a zero, two zeros, four zeros, or what.  Quite annoying.
16:07:53 * Raystm2 always adds depth to .s in retroforths for that very reason.
16:09:10 <Quartus> Right, I added DEPTH (and modified .s) in the ANS layer, too.
16:09:15 <Raystm2> the way crc uses the stack in his RED-itor, gives him the first 10 items on the stack and anything past 10 is an unknown condition.
16:09:20 <Raystm2> okay coo.
16:09:26 <virl> that's not a problem.
16:09:39 <Quartus> Well, yeah, actually it is.
16:10:04 <virl> so tell me why, when you say it is.
16:10:27 <Quartus> I just did.  What does this stack display tell you:    0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:11:10 <virl> 1) all stack elements are false -> no problem 2) all stack elements are zero -> no problem
16:11:18 <Quartus> How many zeros are on that stack?
16:11:24 <Raystm2> that there are at least 8 zeros somewhere on the stack.
16:11:35 <Raystm2> and they are in a row.
16:11:45 <Quartus> No. There could be anywhere from none to eight zeros on that stack.
16:11:53 <Quartus> The display would be identical.
16:12:02 <Raystm2> Yes! indeed.
16:12:07 <Quartus> How about this one?     0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
16:12:19 <Quartus> How many items?  One, looks like.   More than one?  Maybe.  Maybe 8.
16:12:27 <Raystm2> ya.
16:12:54 <Quartus> With depth, you get     <2> 0 1     and the ambiguity is gone, and your tools are sharp again.
16:12:58 <Raystm2> if you are going to use something to take the visual place of nothing on the stack, it should be anything other then a number.
16:13:14 <virl> I don't see your point.
16:13:41 <Raystm2> virl. <2> 0 1 and 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 are equiv displays.
16:13:59 <virl> and? it doesn't matter
16:14:08 <Quartus> Doesn't matter at all to a C/C++ programmer. :)
16:14:37 <Raystm2> But it does. a value 0 is very different then a value of nil.
16:14:39 <virl> thank's for the brainfart, Quartus 
16:14:55 <Quartus> hey, he who smelt it dealt it, dude.  He who denied it supplied it.
16:15:28 <Raystm2> He who gassed it, assed it.
16:15:37 <Raystm2> why , where did that come from. 
16:15:41 <Quartus> high five, raydude
16:16:04 * Raystm2 hits monitor right on the Quartus.
16:16:08 <Quartus> heh
16:16:38 <virl> nil is a value which isn't specific to Forth. it's a lisp internal value, it deals with lists. but a hardware managed stack isn't a lisp list and so there is no nil.
16:16:48 <Quartus> way to miss the point completely.
16:18:17 <Raystm2> virl when I have 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 on the stack is the stack pointer in memory pointing too the TOS or some point below the limit.
16:18:45 <Raystm2> sorry ... stack pointer pointing to NOS...
16:19:09 <virl> below the limit?
16:19:21 <Quartus> you know this just ends with virl saying 'whatever...'.
16:19:50 <Raystm2> ya you know, somewhere beyound where it is supposed to be pointing to. Did I consume TOS on accident.
16:20:12 <Raystm2> when there was nothing in TOS
16:20:24 <Raystm2> with <1> 0 I know that I can atleast consume a 0
16:20:57 <Raystm2> but <0> 
16:21:31 <Raystm2> tells me that 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 is pointing in the correct place and there is no value, not even 0 in TOS.
16:24:36 <virl> it means that 0 is in TOS
16:24:53 <Raystm2> no <1> 0 
16:25:00 <Raystm2> means zero is in TOS
16:25:36 <Raystm2> 0 and EMPTY are not the same.
16:25:52 <virl> when a stacks elements are all zero: 0 0 0 0 0 0 then TOS is 100% zero
16:26:03 <Raystm2> They prob'ly are semantically. :) doh!
16:26:47 <Raystm2> ya. I know, virl, but you don't think of it that way. Just like non programmers don't start counting with zero, they start with 1, but programmers start with zero. 
16:26:52 <virl> empty or 0? wtf? what's that for a braindead design?
16:27:00 <Raystm2> it is :)
16:27:42 <Raystm2> If I start with an empty stack <0> , 
16:27:50 <Raystm2> and add a 0 to it, 
16:27:55 <Raystm2> <1> 0 
16:28:12 <Raystm2> I can consume the zero with out an underflow condition.
16:28:36 <Raystm2> if I start with an empty stack <0>
16:28:51 <Raystm2> and I consume it <-1>
16:28:55 <Raystm2> I'm in error.
16:29:13 <Raystm2> I'm messing with addresses I don't belong in.
16:30:04 <Raystm2> A 0 in TOS when the stack is considered EMPTY is not a zero that you can use or ney do anything about at all. It's not a value.
16:30:08 <virl> sry, but that's only stupid. imho, underflow testing/overflow testing is something which is ugly. no wonder why I like circular stacks a lot more.
16:30:17 <virl> they are so elegant.
16:30:29 <Raystm2> I was gonna say something about that as well. :)
16:30:31 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:31:15 <Raystm2> We see evidence of programmers that use things that we would consider dangerous or just not 'right' but in there minds, the way they work, all the bases are covered, no real problems.
16:32:17 <virl> I don't support that stupidity. reasons_why_ans_forth_should_die dup @ 1+ swap !
16:32:39 <Raystm2> oh man, those are all of my favorites too. 
16:33:05 <Raystm2> prob'ly the 5 most widely used words in the language. 
16:34:00 <Raystm2> Quite a bit can be done with just those 5 words. 
16:35:51 <Raystm2> POINT Quartus: When a new forther begins, he doesn't hear the word names, and I dare say I don't remember reading anywhere that recommended that the forther learn the names. Read ! as store... 
16:36:23 <Raystm2> I don't mean names but the pronunciations.
16:36:31 <Quartus> I'm not sure what you mean.
16:37:25 <Raystm2> okay, @ >r ! r> 1+        line noise to a newbie because he doesn't hear in his head...
16:37:50 <Raystm2> fetch to-return store from-return increment
16:38:12 <Raystm2> Took me a bit to learn that on my own.
16:39:28 <Raystm2> I didn't even link up to the name pronunciations when I first saw them in the ANS
16:39:46 <Quartus> my reading:  fetch to-r store r-from one-plus
16:40:30 <Raystm2> most excellent reading it is as well. See, I STILL don't know them and at least i didn't use PUSH and POP this time, right? so... point.
16:41:04 <Quartus> progress :)
16:41:15 <Raystm2> heh
16:41:45 <Raystm2> But you knew what I meant and that means I wasn't that far off using any of the above terms. 
16:41:54 <Raystm2> SO... :) 
16:41:59 <Quartus> Shouldn't you be driving to OUTER SPACE by now? :)
16:42:19 <Raystm2> my ride hasn't arrived yet :(
16:42:27 <virl> progress? regression!
16:42:33 <Quartus> oh hush.
16:42:52 <Raystm2> virl agreed, In a James Burke-sian kinda way, I agree.
16:43:41 <Raystm2> Our progress restrains us. We become carbon copy and paper thin.
16:44:12 <Quartus> You get that from James Burke?
16:45:15 <Raystm2> See Quartus, cf is progress and you are a luddite and ... The last episode that I watched was the one that ends with the gingerbread cookie people all milled and pressed thru the industrial-military complex, one way or another.
16:46:01 <Quartus> Mmm, gingerbread
16:46:14 <Raystm2> Bound to be left with that view on that particular episode. 
16:46:20 <Raystm2> What I really get from JB is...
16:46:25 <Raystm2> not this room right.
16:46:53 <Quartus> One of the messages is clear: significant climactic changes result in major innovation.
16:47:04 <Raystm2> Absotutamundo.
16:47:13 <Raystm2> several times.
16:47:25 <Quartus> Also plagues.
16:47:36 <Raystm2> it's the reason for everything, in a way. 
16:47:41 <Raystm2> ya plagues.
16:47:48 <virl> whatever.. that's getting crazy
16:48:01 <Quartus> THERE IT IS!  "whatever.."   I knew it was just a matter of time.
16:48:33 <Raystm2> "We   are      a couple of wild and crazy guys!"
16:50:16 <virl> or when the forthisht forther is Quartus then Forth is lost.
16:50:45 <Quartus> Bite me, fat boy.
16:51:08 <Raystm2> virl, someone has to hold the balloons, otherwise they go off in all directions and never quite bunch.
16:53:18 <Raystm2> virl, I see a path of forth factoring that has it's logical conclusion in ANS no matter how much you or Chuck or even me doesn't like to see that kind of restraint. It's just the nature of the beast. Programming is supported by business, business needs assurances to opperate, they do not gamble.
16:55:26 <Raystm2> still, there is no reason to Poo Poo ANS because it's not a physical restriction, I colour outside of the lines with every line I code before I ANSify it.
16:55:36 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
16:55:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava
16:55:44 <Quartus> hey slava
16:55:47 <slava> hi
16:56:35 <Raystm2> hi slava, welcome back sir.
16:59:29 <virl> well, you don't see my point.
17:00:35 <slava> circular stacks?
17:02:23 <Quartus> in fact the name is bad; I was reading from Oakford's "aliens use colorForth" page.  A circular stack is more properly called a circular queue.
17:02:45 <slava> the problem with a circular stack is that it makes debugging impossible
17:03:58 <Quartus> bingo.
17:04:28 <slava> of course, that's only a problem if one ever intends to write code
17:04:34 <Quartus> heh
17:05:31 <slava> modern cpus provide a very easy way to check for stack under/overflow: read-protected guard pages
17:10:12 <Quartus> In less sophisticated environments, checking for underflow in the interpreter covers most of the necessary ground.
17:10:36 <slava> dirty ANS forth! fuck shit hate i'm so depressed!
17:10:44 <Quartus> whatever...
17:10:55 <Quartus> Wait, you left out mention of me.
17:13:03 <slava> does the ARM have an MMU?
17:13:21 <Quartus> have you emailed werty to ask?
17:13:41 <slava> we should invite him to this channel
17:14:04 <Quartus> jesus
17:14:12 <Quartus> smile when you say that
17:14:41 <slava> ok, how about ##forth then?
17:14:51 <Quartus> still too close
17:14:56 <Quartus> he might mis-type
17:15:01 <slava> hah
17:15:08 <Raystm2> how about dalnet?
17:15:20 <slava> Quartus: ok, #xell
17:15:25 <Raystm2> ooh.
17:15:34 <Quartus> heh. Oh my.
17:18:12 <Raystm2> So, Burke, right... I was saying, you know, weather, famine, plague, natural disaster, steller object, invention, and there you are.
17:18:42 <Quartus> fuck shit hate ... oh sorry.  Right, Burke.
17:18:54 <Raystm2> Proof there was decent tv in the late seventies.
17:19:36 <Raystm2> DOH! i forgot social, and particularly anti-social behavior.
17:20:27 <Quartus> Ray.  C'mon.  MASH. All In The Family.  The Bob Newhart Show.  The Muppet Show.  The Odd Couple.  Taxi.
17:20:51 <Quartus> Quincy.
17:20:59 <Raystm2> saw them all in the eighties, sorry. wasn't allowed to watch that stuff as a kid. :(
17:21:10 <Raystm2> no kidding.
17:21:10 <Quartus> The Rockford Files.
17:21:17 <Raystm2> yup missed em all.
17:21:28 <Quartus> Yeah, but decent tv from the 70s.
17:22:18 <Raystm2> You are correct, certainly. I even saw the first Connections when I was living in Tahoe.
17:22:27 <Raystm2> 83 or so
17:24:32 <virl> haha, really funny, laughing about my frozen project, that's so intelligent. please die in agony.
17:25:48 <Quartus> I'm torn between asking who it is you want to have die in agony, or just kicking you.
17:28:24 <virl> laughing about me, and you expect no reaction? probably you are braindead.
17:30:55 <slava> it was me, not Quartus 
17:34:34 <ASau> Just a question.
17:34:45 <ASau> How do you pronounce the word "java"?
17:34:58 <ASau> (a) "yava";
17:35:05 <ASau> (b) "dzhava".
17:35:16 <slava> when i'm speaking russian, a, when speaking english, b.
17:35:53 <ASau> (c) "zhava" (for malqars and kazakhs).
17:38:10 * Raystm2 playing the dumb Texan... 
17:38:10 <Raystm2> It's pronounced Ja-va. GAWD! 
17:38:10 <Raystm2> :)
17:38:43 <ASau> Sorry, for spanish:
17:38:50 <ASau> (d) "khava".
17:39:58 <Quartus> I think 'hava' in spanish.
17:40:12 <Quartus> No k.
17:40:42 <Raystm2> Hava na gila in hebrew...
17:54:53 <ASau> Quartus: I don't know IPA rules, I use classic
17:54:54 <ASau> transliteration rule for cyrillic "x".
17:55:38 <Quartus> I don't know what it is in IPA either, offhand, but in spanish, for instance, Jesus is pronounced hey-zeus, so I'm assuming Java is ha-va
17:55:58 <slava> coincidence? i think not! java is jesus
17:56:11 <Quartus> Java died for our sins and rose again on the third day?  Wow.
17:56:24 <Quartus> I did not know that, slava.
17:56:34 <Quartus> I was uninformed.
18:03:05 <Raystm2> I was unUniformed. But then I just pulled up my pants and picked up my prayer beads and headed out he vectory door. 
18:03:17 <Quartus> vectory?
18:04:30 <Raystm2> Roger! Roger. What's your clearance, Clarence?
18:08:22 <Raystm2> What, you don't invent your own words as you go? Rectory okay rectory would definately have been much more funny cuz of all of the rectum.
18:08:40 <Quartus_> Hmm :)
18:11:59 <Raystm2> From the people who brought you folEndar and one of the smallest chess operating systems in the world... vectory. In a sentance: " ... and headed out the vectory door" . 
18:12:19 <Raystm2> there that should be sufficient to one day propagate the web and be the definition for vectory.
18:12:42 <Quartus_> hey, maybe it's already a word.
18:13:00 <ASau> IPA = International Philologists' (?) Association.
18:13:01 <Raystm2> Wouldn't _that_ be embarassing.
18:13:07 <ASau> Something like this.
18:13:31 <Raystm2> it's a cad software. a proper name.
18:14:10 <ASau> They have their own alphabet to write pronounsation of words.
18:14:28 <Quartus_> I know what the IPA is.
18:14:40 <Raystm2> "Man, his Cartesian co-ords were so, you know, 'vectory' ".
18:16:01 <Quartus_> heh
18:18:55 <Raystm2> International Phonetic Association.
18:19:13 <Raystm2> International Phonetic Alphabet.
18:19:20 <Quartus_> yes, they're not as likely to be philologists
18:21:16 <Raystm2> hehe.
18:22:09 <Raystm2> Where do these people think they can get off, standardizing the sounds of words by tokenizing the pronunciation. LUDDITES!!!
18:22:26 <Quartus_> uh oh, not a 'standard'!
18:22:36 <ASau> Alright, I've found I was wrong.
18:30:46 <Quartus_> coughlin's on a tear, in clf. Many posts.
18:30:58 <Quartus_> gaining on werty.
18:41:01 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
18:41:07 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
18:42:56 --- nick: tattrdkat -> virsys
19:04:11 --- join: I440r (n=foo@ip70-162-111-107.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #forth
19:59:04 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-178-84-31.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth
19:59:33 <zpg> Hi.
19:59:40 <Quartus> Hey.
19:59:46 <slava> hi zpg, I440r 
19:59:49 <zpg> hey Quartus, slava 
20:00:28 <zpg> one that'll crack you chaps up -- finished off that king book, the latter third dealing with a city of "luddites".
20:00:43 <zpg> a werty wet dream.
20:01:07 <Quartus> Were they people opposed to industrial mechanization?
20:02:41 <zpg> It's ambigiuous. The theme of the series is that the world has 'moved on'; the City of Lud is where the main characters arrive by the tail-third of the book, and there are passing references to citizens as Luddites. Essentially, it's a post-apocalyptic scenario; forgotten knowledge, barbarism and a penchant for rust.
20:02:48 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth
20:03:02 <zpg> Entertaining stuff if you like that sort of thing.
20:03:23 <Quartus> And if you don't, it's just more twaddle from King, who should have stuck to short stories.  Admittedly, they're much harder to write.
20:03:34 <zpg> :)
20:04:06 <Quartus> All more entertaining than packaging a puppet, which is what I'm up to. :)
20:04:23 <zpg> I gave King a go years ago, the first few I read were frankly pretty dire. These titles coincided -- largely -- with his most popular all-out horror stuff.
20:04:42 <zpg> Ah, a forthcoming eBay listing?
20:05:19 <Quartus> backgoing.  Sold and soon to be shipped.
20:06:34 <zpg> Do you build one, list, wait -- or is there a stockpile of NB MST3K puppets?
20:14:50 <Quartus> If I had a bigger place, I'd maybe have a stockpile. But no. :)
20:17:07 <Quartus> I have my own Crow and Servo, but the others come one at a time.  On occasion there's a couple of Servos looking around, but usually no more than one extra Crow.
20:17:24 * zpg nods
20:17:32 <Quartus> Each one is a fair undertaking.
20:18:12 <zpg> sounds it.
20:18:34 <zpg> i'm sure i've asked before, but how did you get into puppeteering?
20:18:39 <zpg> or rather, puppet construction.
20:19:14 <Quartus> Well, like anything else, one step at a time.  One day, you look around, you're a puppet-maker. :)
20:22:42 <zpg> heh
20:23:41 <Quartus> It's similar to how you get into a life of crime, only more work, and not as lucrative.
20:26:41 * zpg chuckles
20:27:02 <Quartus> I make other props, too, so it's not just puppets, but puppet-maker sounds funnier, so I go with that. :)
20:27:41 <zpg> images of cussack in kaufman films
20:27:46 <Quartus> I mean, I have a software company, too, but everybody has one of those nowadays.
20:49:27 <I440r> more work, less money, less risk lol
20:49:40 <I440r> your not likely to be shot or locked up lol
20:49:48 <I440r> uless your work is bad heh
20:50:02 <slava> almost every line spoken by I440r ends with lol or heh... i wonder if he's actually laughing
20:50:09 <Quartus> I hope not.
20:50:59 <I440r> ya lol
20:51:27 <I440r> internally. not always outwardly :)
21:03:25 --- join: Shain (i=steve@adsl-75-31-194-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth
21:03:30 <slava> hi Shain 
21:03:38 <Shain> hi there
21:06:06 <I440r> hi :)
21:06:10 <I440r> u new in here ?
21:09:49 <JasonWoof> no, Shain has been around for ages
21:09:56 <slava> JasonWoof: what's up?
21:10:04 * slava is trying to optimize some code
21:10:20 <JasonWoof> I'm tying up loose ends before I konk out early
21:10:25 <JasonWoof> I'm over-booked tomorrow
21:10:49 <JasonWoof> think I'm done with e-mail, now time to shower and see if I can fall asleep
21:10:57 * I440r is reading a book on his new metal detector
21:11:04 <slava> metal detector?
21:11:31 <Quartus> are you one of those crazy old guys who goes up and down the beach looking for quarters?
21:11:42 <TreyB> He plans to hunt meteorites, and hand-built a detector the size of a sheet of plywood.
21:11:46 <JasonWoof> I'm trying not to be annoyed that my client said something that she did "didn't seem to work" without giving me an error message or anything even vaguely helpful.
21:11:57 <I440r> beach hunters are hunting for rings
21:12:08 <I440r> you can get alot of gold rings on beaches
21:12:32 <I440r> and no why would i have a book on a new metal detector i had BUILT lol
21:12:38 <Quartus> beach hunters are sad crazy people.
21:12:38 <TreyB> ;-)
21:12:59 <I440r> no
21:13:03 <TreyB> It sounded more interesting than beach hunting.
21:13:06 <Quartus> Dude.  They are.
21:13:35 <slava> I440r: you need to work on isforth instead of beach hunting
21:13:37 <I440r> but altho this has a beach mode thats not where its best performance is
21:13:55 <I440r> im on tilt
21:14:09 <I440r> i need a destraction that gets me off my ass
21:14:28 <I440r> google whites dfx
21:14:43 <Quartus> And of all the things you could do, you decided to be a crazy old guy with a metal detector?
21:15:20 <I440r> keeps you fit. you get to find some very nice. very expensive old coins or gold rings
21:15:34 <I440r> if you tried it you would find it rewarding
21:15:48 <Quartus> Fit? Strolling up and down a stretch of beach bent over at 20 deg. with a metal detector?
21:16:09 <Quartus> Watch out, you find another crazy old guy there, he's probably staked out that section.  He'll cut ya.
21:16:13 <I440r> if your bent over you have the wrong detector or have adjusted it wrong
21:16:15 <TreyB> It beats keyboarding all day as a form of exercise.
21:16:38 <I440r> and im in arizona
21:16:45 <I440r> show me where the nearest "beach" is
21:16:54 <Quartus> Wow. So you do this where?
21:17:01 <TreyB> But then it also involves going to the beach.  I like the beach, except for all that sand.
21:17:24 <I440r> it wouldnt matter where i go. or what i tell you, you will belittle it
21:18:23 <Quartus> Google: Results 11 - 20 of about 12,700 for "old guy" "metal detector".
21:19:17 <I440r> when  you have dug up your first medieval puter spoon or hammered gold celtic coin or a bronze scraper from 2000 bc maybe then you might understand
21:19:37 <Quartus> A bronze scraper from 2000 BC in Arizona?
21:19:47 <Quartus> Somebody rob the museum with a sack with a hole in it? :)
21:19:53 <slava> how far do you have to dig?
21:19:56 <I440r> who said i was l;imited to arizona
21:20:18 <I440r> depends on your detector, the ground and various other external factors
21:20:29 <I440r> usually a detector wont go down more than a foot
21:21:03 <I440r> tho a pulse induction can go down 3 foot through heavilly mineralized BLACK sand and SCREAM at you over a small nail
21:21:48 <I440r> my detector can go down 20 or so inches. but the deeper you go from the coil the smaller the area you can "see"
21:21:56 <I440r> the search field is a cone
21:22:21 <TreyB> Hence the need for plywood-sheeting-sized loops.
21:22:30 <I440r> there may not be any roman artifacts here but there sure is ALOT of gold
21:22:37 <I440r> this here is "lost dutchman" country
21:23:15 <I440r> tho to do prospecting rght i need a different coil
21:24:10 <I440r> you can get detectors that you need to pull behind you with a tractor. they ARE used for detecting meteors
21:24:17 <I440r> err
21:24:19 <I440r> metiors
21:24:21 <I440r> err
21:24:26 <slava> meteors 
21:24:32 <slava> use an irc client with on the fly spell checking :)
21:24:48 <TreyB> Yeah, I saw show on PBS with a segment about that yesterday.
21:24:52 <I440r> find one the size of a soccer ball and you got yourself maybe 50,000 usd
21:25:02 <I440r> find one 4 times that and your a millionaire
21:25:32 --- join: ASau` (n=user@home-pool-173-2.com2com.ru) joined #forth
21:26:10 <I440r> golf ball sized or small rock sized ones go for hundreds or even thousands
21:26:36 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:26:37 <I440r> and THOSE you can find anywyere. tho there are some known pockets of very high numbers of them 
21:26:50 <slava> that begs the question, how do you distinguish a meteor from fossilized dog shit?
21:27:09 <I440r> dog shit dont go beep :)
21:27:16 <zpg> night all.
21:27:26 <Quartus> ciao zpg
21:27:33 <I440r> fossilized or otherwise lol
21:27:34 --- quit: zpg ("bye")
21:28:43 --- quit: JasonWoof ("to bed at a reasonable hour!")
21:38:16 <slava> I440r: where do you plan to dig?
21:38:16 <I440r> this is a top of the line detector, it will take months to learn how to use in all conditions...
21:38:16 <I440r> ill try the local parks first
21:38:16 <I440r> this town is not old by english standards but its got a few hundred years of people losing silver :)
21:38:16 <I440r> and gold :)
21:38:16 <I440r> the salt river has gold in it and lots of crap dropped by people tubing down it
21:38:16 <I440r> the desert will have meteors and gold
21:38:16 <I440r> when i go back to san antonio there will be places there too
21:38:16 <I440r> if i get a contract east i can hunt civil war battle sites 
21:38:17 <I440r> the only thing i ever found of interest was an old puter spoon. i gave it to the farmer who owned the land
21:38:17 <I440r> it was maybe 400 years old
21:38:27 <I440r> oh my freekin god!
21:38:46 <I440r> one of the first things i did when i came to arizona was to take their course for getting a concealed carry permit
21:39:00 <I440r> i can carry openly without it but if i get the permit its valid in texas too where i live
21:39:27 <I440r> well. TWO of their forms require a SSN
21:39:46 <I440r> i emeiled the arizona dps asking if they would reject the forms if i left those fields blank
21:40:07 <I440r> i was informed that arizona would happilly take my money and reject the application that was not 100% complete
21:40:44 <I440r> i then informed them that their forms were in violation of the 1975 privacy act becayse they do not state what use will be made of the ssn and do not state if the fields are optional or not
21:41:01 <I440r> they kind of went all quiet on me and i didnt hear from them till just now
21:41:35 <I440r> i just received an email from them telling me that arizona will no longer be requiring any SSN's and that my application would not be rejected on that basis :)
21:41:40 <I440r> ha!
21:56:33 <I440r> http://www.packing.org/community/laws_politics/thread/?thread=19605    <--- details there :)
22:30:29 <Shain> metal detectors are fun
22:30:45 <I440r> and educational :)
22:30:50 <Shain> I take mine camping with me
22:30:55 <I440r> what do you have ?>
22:31:10 <Shain> a radio shack job
22:31:15 <I440r> :)
22:31:17 <I440r> they work
22:31:22 <Shain> it only cost $100
22:31:39 <Shain> I sold a gold ring I found for $40
22:31:45 <I440r> add a zero onto that and thats mine lol. but ive used radio shack ones too
22:31:49 <I440r> cool
22:32:01 <I440r> so the metal detector only cost $60 :)
22:32:04 <Shain> I bought it to find nails :)
22:32:12 <I440r> ive found one penny and one dime with this one :P
22:32:18 <I440r> neither of which is old lol
22:32:27 <Shain> we were pulling old nails from boards during a remodel
22:32:31 <I440r> but i was just checking her out, not a serious search yet
22:32:44 <I440r> :)
22:32:54 <Shain> I just like getting outdoors
22:33:01 <I440r> me 2
22:33:19 <I440r> your detector will go between 2 and 6 inches
22:33:24 <Shain> Well, I'm going to go watch Ma and Pa Kettle
22:33:28 <I440r> thats plenty deep enough :)
22:33:31 <I440r> ok :)
22:33:35 <I440r> im gona zzzz
22:33:39 <I440r> btw
22:33:44 <Shain> no, it'll go down about 12 inches
22:33:45 <I440r> hi - i dont think we chatted before :)
22:33:52 <I440r> you can get a foot down?
22:33:54 <I440r> im impressed
22:33:57 <Shain> a looong time ago
22:34:05 <I440r> we did ?
22:34:07 <I440r> lol
22:34:11 <Shain> c4th, i think
22:34:14 <I440r> i dont remember. its old age 
22:34:18 <I440r> aha
22:34:32 <I440r> ok then :)
22:34:47 <Shain> I don't get on much anymore
22:34:52 <Shain> work
22:35:08 <Shain> I idle a lot
22:35:31 <Shain> well, good night
22:35:36 <I440r> lol
22:35:39 <I440r> nite :)
22:39:32 --- quit: ayrnieu (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:14:23 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:15:20 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth
23:20:39 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:47:19 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.01.04