00:00:00 --- log: started forth/07.01.02
00:00:03 <ASau> Don't mind, we have many illiterate men now, that do not
00:00:03 <ASau> know right spelling even in their native language.
00:00:47 <Quartus> I don't claim to know any Russian.  I worked on it a little while building the Russian translation of Quartus Forth, but that's it.
00:00:58 <ASau> Ah!
00:07:08 <Quartus> Fiddling with codepages for Cyrillic, and such.
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01:32:32 <ASau> Dobryj den'!
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05:34:45 <zpg> Hi.
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06:33:46 <Ray_work> Good morning.
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06:42:47 <zpg> Hi Ray_work 
06:47:18 <Ray_work> Hi zpg. Are you well?
06:48:53 <zpg> Indeed so. Yourself?
06:49:59 <Ray_work> Sure, I'm okay. Back to work after being out for a while with dental pain. Lots and lots of pain meds over the last week. Nice to have a clear head again.
06:50:34 <Ray_work> zpg: Are you a James Burke fan?
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06:52:31 <virl> what about seaforth chips? are they now getting shipped or are they supposed to be vapoware?
06:53:09 <zpg> Ray_work: which one? Actor, author...?
06:53:20 <Ray_work> You know, virl, I haven't been paying much attention to that project. Maybe I should.
06:53:25 <Ray_work> Author.
06:54:44 <Ray_work> zpg
06:54:48 <Ray_work> oops
06:54:56 <Ray_work> zpg: Author.
06:58:18 <zpg> Haven't read any.
07:07:18 <Ray_work> He's that BBC Science and Tech Historian, "Connections1", "2", "+3", "The Day the Universe Changed,"
07:07:48 <zpg> oh
07:08:19 <zpg> still a no :)
07:09:23 <Ray_work> reason I ask is he's posting his old shows on the web like one episode a week, it would appear, and so I've started ##Burke for the fans. Some of us here in #forth are fans.
07:09:42 <ASau> Good evening!
07:09:57 <zpg> hi ASau
07:09:57 <Ray_work> Hi ASau :)
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09:41:35 <Quartus_> hey
09:45:43 <absentia> morn'
09:47:59 <Quartus_> how goes it?
09:48:43 <ASau> Dobry vecer!
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10:32:32 <Ray-work> WB :
10:32:33 <Ray-work> )
10:33:05 <Ray-work> Good morning, Quartus_.
10:33:13 <Ray-work> Hoping the day finds you well.
10:33:27 <Ray-work> gg to make soup, brb.
10:38:49 <zpg> chaps.
10:55:33 <Ray-work> Spurs.
10:55:40 <TreyB> heh
10:55:57 <Ray-work> TreyB, arn't you in Tejas as well?
10:56:39 <TreyB> Yes.  Somewhat relatedly, I spent the weekend at an endurance horse race.
10:57:13 <Ray-work> You did. How long is an endurance horse race? Or does it have to do with added load?
10:58:42 <TreyB> Limited Distance comes in at 25 miles.  Endurance races go for 50 or more, I think.  I rode an intro ride at 12.5 miles, just for fun.
10:59:23 <TreyB> I'd have to look at the AERC rules to know the cut-off between limited distance and endurance.
10:59:58 <Ray-work> Not important. But thanks for that.
11:00:01 <TreyB> This particular race didn't have a 100 mile course, but they often do.
11:00:21 <Ray-work> Whoa. Same horse? 100 mi?
11:00:43 <TreyB> Yep.  You get 24 hours for a 100 and 12 hours for a 50.
11:00:51 <Ray-work> I did not know that.
11:01:46 <TreyB> The horses go through periodic vet checks durning the race, and you will get pulled if the horse doesn't pass.  They take the animal's health very seriously.
11:02:03 <Ray-work> I'm sure they do. Otherwise...
11:02:17 <Ray-work> PETA everywhere?
11:02:45 <TreyB> You can kill them pretty easily.  They will typically keep going if you ask them to, even if they shouldn't.
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11:22:52 <Quartus_> a horse is a horse
11:23:25 <Quartus_> of course of course
11:23:48 <Quartus_> and no one can talk to a horse of course
11:23:56 <Quartus_> unless of course
11:24:01 <Quartus_> the horse should be
11:24:13 <Quartus_> the faaaaamous Mr. Ed!
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11:38:43 <zpg> hi frunobulax 
11:42:48 <Quartus> [14:32] <gettyup> there a c compiler in visual studio?
11:42:48 <Quartus> [14:33] <PoppaVic> studios have compilers?
11:45:14 <zpg> hey Quartus
11:45:15 <zpg> and "oy"
11:45:23 <Quartus> hey. Not sure what 'oy' means. :)
11:45:52 <zpg> note: <ryanarn> PoppaVic is correct.
11:45:56 <zpg> so it was written.
11:46:09 <Quartus> the high leading the high
11:46:16 <zpg> "oy" as in a sigh at your paste.
11:46:22 <Quartus> ah.
11:46:48 <zpg> how's it going? you've rooted yourself oncemore i see.
11:46:56 <zpg> pitched the _ for the night so to speak.
11:47:13 <Quartus> For the moment at any rate. Going well, thanks. You?
11:47:40 <zpg> not bad at all -- just caught up on the usenet arguments over your 'bad coding style'
11:47:51 <zpg> i wasn't aware this was still be argued.
11:47:58 <Quartus> Amusing stuff.
11:48:25 <Quartus> Did you see my last post? I'm entertained that the 'forth-like' implementation in C generates better code.
11:48:42 <zpg> yeah i saw that. intriguing
11:48:47 <zpg> one -vs- two branches
11:48:51 <zpg> 10 -vs- 11 instructions
11:48:57 <zpg> (if i remembered that right)
11:49:01 <Quartus> Right. Minor, but interesting.
11:49:09 <zpg> agreed.
11:49:24 <zpg> did you catch Life on Mars in the end?
11:49:54 <Quartus> I did. Season finale I believe.
11:49:58 <Quartus> char digit1(unsigned u) { return (u += '0', u + (u > '9') * 7); }
11:50:21 <Quartus> uses a sequence point, of course, and doubtless I will be taunted for that too.
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11:51:04 <zpg> :)
11:51:16 <zpg> your point came through very clearly though.
11:51:50 <Quartus> Only to the already sympathetic, I suspect.  I doubt Rickman and Drake's skulls allowed entry.
11:51:54 <frunobulax> What did gcc do with the "* 7?" Not an actual multiply I suspect?
11:52:19 <Quartus> No, it recognized the multiplcation-by-a-boolean-value deal and turned it into what you'd expect. 
11:52:26 <zpg> frunobulax: manage to fix the "/me" --> "ACTION" stuff in nano-IRC?
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11:53:44 <zpg> Quartus: a pleasant fellow, this PV
11:53:55 <Quartus> oh I see you've engaged him.
11:54:00 <frunobulax> zpg: Yes. But VERSION and TIME are still out.
11:54:20 <zpg> frunobulax: still c 100 lines?
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11:54:30 <zpg> Quartus: yes, perhaps a stupid feat.
11:54:43 <Quartus> You'll regret it soon, if you don't already. :)
11:54:56 * zpg chuckles
11:55:50 <zpg> the atmosphere in #forth is definitely set apart from most other freenode channels. generally speaking, far more friendly. the odd argument of course, but there seems to be a more relaxed atmosphere. going into ##c provides a shock to the system.
11:56:33 <frunobulax> zpg: Around 140 lines now. It is time for a rewrite. As always, the last 10% of the problem are the net 90% of the code.
11:57:21 <Quartus> zpg, it used to be less pleasant here, perhaps you are now aware of why. :)
11:57:30 <zpg> heh.
11:57:41 <zpg> frunobulax: the compactness is impressive all the same.
11:58:54 <zpg> frunobulax: what's your perspective on ANS btw (in the context of portability and your iForth code of course).
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12:00:21 * zpg greets tathi
12:00:32 <Quartus> Hey tathi.
12:01:01 <zpg> Quartus: see the LSE64 posts?
12:01:12 <Quartus> Something from Coughlin.  I don't read those too closely.
12:02:12 * zpg chuckles
12:02:47 <tathi> hi zpg, Quartus
12:03:47 <zpg> Quartus: i honestly can't follow what the hell he's talking about over in ##C
12:04:00 <frunobulax> zpg: I think ANS is fine. But I can't do much in pure ANS Forth (music, graphics, simulation etc.). Thus iForth. For some reason nobody seems to be interested in adding library stuff to the standard.
12:04:04 <Quartus> zpg, welcome to the wonderful world of PoppaVic.
12:05:20 <zpg> frunobulax: for media/simulation, how are you extensions/libraries written? in forth?
12:05:45 <Quartus> frunobulax, why are you, yourself, not interested in adding library stuff to the standard?
12:07:00 <tathi> hrm.  I come in here and you're discussing PoppaVic, *and* I just got an e-mail from him with his latest code.
12:07:09 <zpg> heh
12:07:14 <Quartus> tathi, you must really be feeling the love. :)
12:07:35 <tathi> you'd better believe it
12:07:46 <Quartus> I wasn't aware he wrote code. What is it?
12:08:32 <frunobulax> zpg: All my stuff is in Forth. But I'm not touching OS stuff myself. So for OpenGL I use a mesa and glut interface. For computation I use the GotoBLAS, but as it is slow for small matrices, I have Forth shortcuts also. Etc. :-)
12:10:16 <tathi> Quartus: same thing he's always been working on; a replacement for make, autotools, and the shell, on some sort of stack-based VM.
12:10:28 <Quartus> and how do you rate it?
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12:11:37 <tathi> hard to say, given that he uses his own private dictionary, so you can never be sure if the words mean what you think they mean :)
12:11:43 <frunobulax> Quartus; I have no time to take the lead, but if there are interesting projects I probably will contribute.
12:11:50 <zpg> frunobulax: i see -- is iForth written in C or assembly btw?
12:12:12 <Quartus> tathi, I recall.
12:12:56 <tathi> Quartus: so I've never really dug through his code much
12:13:27 <frunobulax> zpg; iForth is written in assembly and itself. It has a C loader program (DOS, Windows, Linux) which provides the glue and platform specific stuff.
12:13:29 <Quartus> I understand.
12:18:50 <zpg> frunobulax: from the FAQ, "iForth is an ANS Forth. Every word defined in the ANS Forth standard is available in iForth." -- from this I gather that you could provide a set of compatibility libraries for other ANS systems so that they can run iForth code (that doesn't call on OpenGL etc.)
12:20:10 <frunobulax> zpg: Yes? Such a compatibility layer exists already.
12:21:11 <zpg> Neat. So the only incompatibilities are at the level of the foreign function interface?
12:23:01 <frunobulax> zpg; You may not realize that iForth loads most of its extensions from source when it starts up. So with the layer AND the extension files it would be (is) possible.
12:26:32 <zpg> Good stuff! You're right, I misunderstood the compatibility issues.
12:35:04 <ASau> Hmm.
12:35:34 <ASau> It looks, that I rewrite a part completly soon.
12:40:23 <ASau> How do you think, may I change licensing terms when I
12:40:23 <ASau> rewrite everything from scratch?
12:40:39 <zpg> this is Dragon?
12:40:57 <ASau> Yes.
12:40:58 <Quartus_> sounds like a derivative work to me, so probably not.
12:41:12 <zpg> well if it's 100% from scratch it's a different project, presumably.
12:41:32 <Quartus_> if you clean-roomed it. Which you're not doing.
12:41:52 <zpg> true.
12:42:00 <zpg> ASau: what're you contending with, GPL?
12:42:08 <ASau> Yes.
12:42:28 <ASau> I don't like GPL.
12:44:15 <virl> bah, BSD license, eh?
12:44:26 <ASau> Maybe even PD.
12:44:54 <Ray-work> "Heeeellooo, Willllber"
12:44:57 <virl> PD?
12:45:05 <Quartus_> heh
12:46:30 <ASau> I don't see, why my code should be locked under any conditions.
12:46:53 <Quartus_> what do you do for a living?
12:47:18 <ASau> I program LISP.
12:47:56 <Quartus_> Presumably you are paid for this? And the code you write is not in the public domain?
12:48:12 <ASau> Yes.
12:48:41 <Quartus_> ok. So you do see.
12:48:46 <ASau> But what I program in Forth is for my purpose only,
12:49:03 <ASau> so I don't understand why I should lock it.
12:49:33 <Quartus_> if you wish to work for free, of course that's fine.
12:51:49 <ASau> If I release work under GNU terms, it is also free, so it does no matter.
12:52:27 <Quartus_> yes, at that point subtle distinctions between 'free' licenses are somewhat unimportant.
12:54:02 <ASau> There will be distinction, if I occasionally want to reuse
12:54:02 <ASau> my own code in some commercial project.
12:54:47 <ASau> I see the situation like this:
12:55:26 <ASau> I am the only author (remember, I did complete rewrite),
12:55:42 <ASau> I am the copyright holder,
12:56:12 <ASau> thus it is my own decision about terms.
12:56:44 <Quartus_> yes, I fail to see how you'd be bound by your own licensing terms.
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13:00:17 <ASau> Marcel, you're inventive.
13:00:54 <ASau> It's forth or fifth name you use for these 2 days.
13:01:11 <AyBeSea> I must be doing something wrong, my nicks are locked when I get a network error.
13:01:41 <ASau> Ah, that's the reason!
13:02:55 <tathi> it may not be you -- sometimes it takes a while for the connection to time out from the IRC server's end.
13:03:53 <tathi> that has happened occasionally with all the IRC clients I've tried.
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13:06:36 <ASau> Hmm.
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13:09:41 <tathi> er.  I didn't mean when you quit, I meant when something goes wrong with your network connection.
13:09:48 <tathi> or if your IRC client crashes
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13:11:50 <ASau> Privet, arke!
13:11:57 <arke> Terve, ASau!
13:12:55 * Ray-work raises a diet DrPepper...
13:13:03 <Ray-work> TO YOUR HEALTH!
13:13:18 <Quartus_> aspartame causes an insulin spike, ray.
13:13:38 <Quartus_> which causes additional carb cravings.
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13:14:23 <ASau> Brain requires sugar, it does not consume anything other.
13:14:46 <Ray-work> I was like that, ASau. Now I'm diabetic. 
13:15:05 <Ray-work> When I was diagnosed, I was 8times the human limit for blood sugar.
13:15:20 <ASau> I've got quite opposite problem.
13:15:22 <Quartus_> diet soda = aspartame and sodium. It's bad for you.
13:15:43 <ASau> I'm constantly balancing on the lower limit.
13:16:12 <Ray-work> oh. I do that too, sometimes. I go both ways. umm sugar wise.
13:18:37 <Ray-work> some asswipe coded my pancreas in DNA instead of forth and MAN is the learning curve huge.
13:19:23 <Quartus_> switch to water.
13:34:51 <virl> untasty..
13:35:37 <Quartus> So drink tea.  Or don't look for your flavour to come from your beverages.
13:36:02 <Quartus> Because it's hard to do tasty cold beverages that don't have sugar, or worse, one of the evil sugar substitutes, plus loads of salt.
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13:37:34 <virl> hmm DNA. how was the code?
13:38:15 <Ray-work> virl: it had spun me for a double helix, I tell ya. :)
13:38:36 <Ray-work> Quartus: agreed.
13:38:54 <virl> I wouldn't wonder if some day there will be mnemonics for the specific molecule combinations.
13:39:26 <virl> cellkill for example..
13:39:44 <virl> black-hair..
13:40:09 <Ray-work> I wouldn't be suprised if some of those already exist.
13:40:34 <virl> and then a guy builds ontop of that a FORTH system..
13:40:37 <ASau> virl, there's already.
13:40:54 <virl> ah ok.
13:41:24 <ASau> There're IUPAC rules for naming molecules.
13:42:06 <Ray-work> dnaForth? hmm. See. F O R T H First On Rediculously Thought-out Hardware.
13:42:29 <ASau> Probably, there're ones for complex biochemical substances with H-bonds.
13:43:28 <virl> that would be probably a mad mutant or only a piece of dead organic.
13:44:03 <virl> hmm.. but when it constructs a system, then it should work.
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13:44:50 <virl> well, whatever I don't think I will ever get in the position to waste some organic cells
13:45:42 <ASau> It seems you're physical fundamentalist.
13:46:00 <ASau> Or of the similar kind.
13:46:29 <virl> I don't know what you exactly mean.
13:47:09 <ASau> There's a kind of physisists.
13:47:22 <ASau> Sorry, here starts my poor English.
13:47:46 <virl> physisists?
13:48:00 <ASau> Yes.
13:48:16 <virl> what'S that?
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13:48:58 <ASau> They think that there's a way to build the One Big Theory
13:48:58 <ASau> of All from fundamental principles.
13:49:18 <virl> aha..
13:49:28 <I440r> anyone here have a pocket pc device ?
13:49:38 <virl> I don't think I fit into that shell
13:49:43 <Quartus> Couple of 'em, couple of years old.
13:50:11 <ASau> Actually, they try to get mechanistic program of Legrange days.
13:51:19 <Ray-work> I440r: you mean like a Palm?
13:51:25 <I440r> my old palm based gps died and the replacement for it is running windows mobile
13:51:29 <ASau> But there's problem with induction paradox and
13:51:29 <ASau> mechanics-thermodynamics transition.
13:51:47 <ASau> PocketPC is WinCE based.
13:52:20 <I440r> this is windows 2003 not ce
13:52:40 <Quartus> I440r, yes, I'm familiar with 2003.  I'm sorry to hear. :)
13:52:41 <I440r> and i am stunned, i think its better than palmos
13:52:56 <I440r> and i HATE everything microsoft lol
13:53:03 <Quartus> Well, for your sake I hope you keep thinking so.  You may find the frustrations mount.
13:53:13 <I440r> they did with palm
13:53:15 <ASau> virl: In the end, this fundamentalists' program fails when
13:53:15 <ASau> they meet chaotic dynamics and other related things.
13:53:16 <Quartus> If it's only to be used as a GPS, you may be fine.
13:53:35 <I440r> the gps i had that ran palm was very unstable. things would crash so hard i literally had to hard reset every now and then
13:53:57 <Quartus> Whose GPS solution was it?
13:53:58 <I440r> i use the gps and play some games and brows the web with it
13:54:15 <I440r> its a garmin ique m5
13:54:22 <Quartus> the old one, I mean
13:54:31 <I440r> that was a garmine ique 3600
13:54:40 <Quartus> So why did you buy Garmin again after such a bad experience with it?
13:54:45 <Ray-work> Get-a Get-a Get-a Garmin. God, I'm glad Christmas is over.
13:55:12 <I440r> because of some reviwes that talked about how they fixed some of the major gripes i had with the old unit
13:55:18 <Ray-work> Because he has a unibrow and the commercials are so compelling. :) lol sorry I440r :)
13:55:21 <I440r> the worst thing was that the batteryu was not replaceable in the old one
13:55:31 <I440r> and it was VERY quick to discharge
13:55:40 <I440r> not good for a handheld gps unit lol
13:55:48 <I440r> this one has a replaceable battery that lasts longer
13:55:49 <Quartus> GPS uses power fast.  As do the Windows Mobile devices.
13:56:28 <I440r> my phone is a paml device and i think the OS itself falls short
13:56:42 <I440r> thats where most of my gripes were with the old gps
13:56:54 <Quartus> I've had limited experience actually using a Palm as a phone on any kind of ongoing basis.
13:57:08 <Quartus> I hear good things about the (non-Windows Mobile) Treos, though.
13:57:17 <I440r> yea thats what i have
13:57:20 <I440r> i have they 650
13:57:28 <I440r> i like it as a PHONE
13:57:29 <I440r> thats it
13:57:40 <Quartus> My current phone is a blackberry.
13:57:47 <I440r> you cant get on the web with it AT ALL unless you PAY
13:57:56 <Quartus> well, that's carrier-dependent.
13:58:05 <I440r> palm ripped out the drivers for the wireless card and fucked it up internally so you couldnt add them back
13:58:17 <Quartus> That's wireless-card dependent.
13:58:32 <I440r> i can get on the net with this just by docking it to my computer which is on the net
13:58:38 <Quartus> These gadgets get embraced & extended by various carriers. Who did you use it through?
13:58:43 <I440r> and i can get a wireess nic for it
13:58:53 <I440r> verizon
13:59:10 <Quartus> 802.11? Yes, you can.  Expect the battery life to be that of, oh, a Roman Candle. :)
13:59:11 <I440r> the wireless drivers were ripped out because they demanded they be ripped out
13:59:43 --- quit: Cheery (Remote closed the connection)
13:59:43 <I440r> i CANNOT use a wireless nic on either of my two palm devices
13:59:45 --- quit: ygrek ()
13:59:50 <I440r> one now since one died lol
14:00:28 <I440r> palm basicaly just lost a customer because of that - but even if i could get a nic to work i think the palmos needs to be redone in arm
14:00:31 <Quartus> Really? Odd.  People do.  I have a LifeDrive; it has wireless integrated, but unless you're plugged in the battery drains in about 20 minutes.  Likewise on the Windows gadgets.
14:00:35 <I440r> this os is written in arm
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14:00:58 <Quartus> ARM-based Palm devices already have the OS in ARM.
14:01:02 <I440r> the drivers will not work on my old garmin and they were ripped out and disabled on my 650
14:01:15 <I440r> but almost no applications
14:01:38 <I440r> the OS is also a one horse town. you cant run multiple apps
14:01:41 <Quartus> You're talking about native-ARM applications?  No, that's not the programming model.
14:01:43 <I440r> i think you can in 2003
14:01:57 <I440r> it is on this device if you want it to be
14:01:58 <Quartus> You can in WM, yes, just as you could in WinCE going all the way back.  It's not a feature.
14:02:05 <Quartus> Multitasking, that is.
14:02:23 <Quartus> You'll see why in time.
14:02:26 <I440r> ispin 2.0 is supposed to add multi taskikng to palm
14:02:45 <I440r> ive had not stability problems yet but i had them from day 1 on both my palm devices
14:03:15 <I440r> i dont like that its windows tho lol
14:03:18 <Quartus> Which WM device did you get?
14:03:32 <I440r> its the garmine ique m5
14:03:45 <Quartus> So an integrated GPS + WM PDA?
14:03:52 <I440r> yup
14:04:06 <I440r> the ique 3600 was the first pda + gps
14:04:10 <I440r> thats the old one
14:04:14 <Quartus> Just listing the product name means I have to googling for it; there are too many gadgets to know them all by name.
14:04:14 <I440r> the dead one lol
14:04:30 <I440r> lol ya
14:05:02 <Quartus> Is it also a phone?
14:05:08 <I440r> no
14:05:23 <I440r> the phone i have is the treo 650
14:05:37 <Quartus> so you can't browse the web on your WM device unless it's in the cradle next to your PC.
14:05:50 <Quartus> At which point, you'd use the PC.
14:06:32 <I440r> i can if i get a nic for it
14:06:53 <Quartus> Right, a wireless 802.11 SD card, that will take your battery life down to well under an hour.
14:07:01 <I440r> i cant brows the web on EITHER of my two palm devices
14:07:17 <I440r> not unless i PAY verizon for it. FUCK THAT!
14:07:34 <I440r> the old gps wouldnt get online at all. the phone can if i pay
14:07:39 <Quartus> Well, that's all verizon, nothing to do with the technology. You have to pay to use 802.11 all over the place, too.
14:07:47 <I440r> no. its palm
14:07:55 <I440r> palm can release drivers for the treo
14:07:59 <I440r> they simply WONT
14:08:10 <Quartus> Drivers have nothing to do with how Verizon charges for data access.
14:08:21 <I440r> no. they DO
14:08:31 <Quartus> Here, let me try.  no. they DON'T.
14:08:41 <Quartus> Wow, just as informative. :)
14:08:42 <I440r> if i had the ability to use the palmOne wireless nic in this phone i could get online with it FOR FREE
14:08:54 <Quartus> oh, back to the 802.11, for which, as I said, you almost always have to pay.
14:09:02 <I440r> no
14:09:06 <Quartus> hang on
14:09:07 <Quartus> yes
14:09:10 <I440r> no
14:09:13 <Quartus> yes
14:09:14 <Quartus> this is fun
14:09:19 <I440r> bullshit
14:09:23 <Quartus> not bullshit
14:09:25 <I440r> there are open hotspots all over town
14:09:26 <I440r> so
14:09:28 <I440r> bullshit
14:10:03 <I440r> every town ive been to has open hotspots all over the place
14:10:07 <Quartus> There are a few here and there in this city, too.  Never quite where you happen to be, and then you also need to be plugged in, or your battery life is measured in about the length of time it takes for a cup of coffee to get cold.
14:10:31 <Quartus> So it's hotspot+seat next to an outlet.
14:11:15 <I440r> not the point
14:11:23 <I440r> at least with this device i CAN get online for fre
14:11:23 <Quartus> The seats next to the outlets are always occupied by students with laptops the size of a drafting table.
14:11:25 <I440r> free
14:12:13 <Quartus> can, theoretically.  Practically it's a useless feature.  I suggest you borrow an 802.11 SD and try it out for awhile before actually buying one.
14:12:35 <Quartus> They're easy to borrow, as nobody who owns one uses it after a couple of weeks.
14:13:07 <I440r> i have the palmOne wireless card, i just need drivers for the PPC lol
14:14:33 <I440r> also on the treo i have ONE choice of web browser
14:14:37 <I440r> and its a POS
14:14:52 <I440r> none of the others will work on the 650
14:15:04 <I440r> they will run but they can never find the net
14:15:06 <Quartus> On the Verizon-branded 650.
14:15:14 <Quartus> Verizon is the devil.
14:15:16 <I440r> another nice addition by palm for verizon
14:15:38 <I440r> palm is big enough they can tell version to fuck off
14:15:59 <Quartus> Oh, that's a lovely notion, but things don't generally work like that.
14:16:05 <I440r> but verizon wines to palm and palm caves in and butchers their devices
14:16:44 <I440r> palm should tell verizon if you want us to butcher OUR operating system just so you can make more money then we want HALF of that money :)
14:16:47 <I440r> lol
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14:17:07 <I440r> it shows palm in a very bad light, most of teh treo users are VERY pissed off at palm for it
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14:17:17 <Quartus> That sounds misdirected.
14:17:23 <I440r> if you look at the treo 700w the wireless drivers WORK!!!!
14:17:32 <I440r> microsoft would not disable them for verizon
14:17:49 <I440r> but they wont work on th etreo 650 or the 700p
14:17:52 <Quartus> Oh, sure they would.  Far more likely is that Verizon realized it was a bad move.
14:18:02 <I440r> oh?
14:18:10 <I440r> and why wasnt it just as bad a move on the 700p ?
14:18:20 <I440r> which wasnt released untill at least a year after the 700w
14:18:25 <Quartus> Microsoft will retool the OS in any way you see fit.  In fact you don't even need permission from Microsoft; you can rebuild the OS yourself, as a reseller.
14:18:25 <I440r> enabled in the p
14:18:28 <I440r> disabled in the w
14:18:32 <I440r> erm 
14:18:36 <I440r> wrong way round
14:19:08 <I440r> then why wont verizon let PALM devices go wireless ?
14:19:30 <Quartus> Who knows?  The list of things Verizon does right is the short one.
14:21:29 <I440r> ive noticed one thing tho, 99% of the programs for download from "FreewarePPC" cost money lol
14:21:33 <I440r> they arent freeware 
14:21:46 <Quartus> Palm licensed the OS in similar ways.  The carriers (and non-carriers, for that matter) can rebuild it as they see fit.
14:22:06 <Quartus> Yeah, that's true.  There's not a lot of free software for the Windows handhelds.
14:22:46 <Quartus> There's not as much non-free software, either.
14:22:59 <I440r> i cant find an assembler 
14:23:04 <I440r> or a forth compiler
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14:26:23 <Lithos> hi
14:26:27 <Quartus> Be glad it's not also your phone; they fall down badly there.
14:26:28 <I440r> hi :)
14:26:29 <Quartus> hi Lithos
14:26:49 <Lithos> i using first time "coolguy"
14:26:51 <Lithos> :)
14:26:58 <Lithos> you ok ?
14:27:01 <Quartus> eh?
14:27:01 <I440r> so does the treo 650 tho lol
14:27:04 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r :)
14:27:08 <I440r> tbw :)
14:27:14 <Quartus> I440r, you'd run crying back to the treo.
14:27:19 <I440r> looking for an assembler for a pocket pc. cant find one lol
14:27:37 <I440r> i like the treo for its PHONE features
14:27:38 <I440r> thats it
14:27:51 <I440r> as a palm device its basically a POS 
14:27:57 <Quartus> I'm saying. The WM devices fall down hard as phones
14:28:10 <Ray-work> luddites need no communication devices!
14:28:19 --- part: Lithos left #forth
14:29:14 * Ray-work needs medication.
14:29:22 <I440r> who u calling a\ luddite ?
14:29:23 <I440r> lol
14:29:31 <Ray-work> But I don't need any communication devices! 
14:29:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
14:30:09 <Ray-work> I'm calling werty a luddite.
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14:30:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus
14:31:02 <Ray-work> man I did that all for Quartus' benefit and the luddite's connection goes down. :(
14:31:13 --- quit: Quartus (Client Quit)
14:31:18 <Ray-work> That's cuz I got timing! :)
14:31:54 <Ray-work> TheBlueWizard: Howdy pard! :)
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14:31:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus
14:32:08 <Quartus> hey
14:32:17 <Ray-work> did you walk out of range??
14:32:36 <Ray-work> you made me luddite all over myself. 
14:32:39 <Quartus> something wrong with my setup presently; I'm not seeing any text other than my own. 
14:33:31 <Ray-work> "Do you feel like you are the only one?" "Do you find yourself talking to yourself?" " I'm Lucinda Basset and I can help you."
14:33:36 <Quartus_> working here though
14:33:40 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Ray-work :)
14:33:44 <Ray-work> coo.
14:33:54 <I440r> who was lithos ?
14:34:03 <I440r> come in. say hi. leave and disconnect
14:34:08 <Quartus_> no clue
14:34:12 <Quartus_> from Turkey
14:34:20 <I440r> that splanes it :)
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14:34:36 <Ray-work> I'm not sure, I440r, but after I said what I said, I got really self conscience.
14:35:12 --- quit: Cheery (Remote closed the connection)
14:35:17 <Ray-work> Normally I don't get self-conscience, cuz them that know me, know I will say and do nearly anything for a laugh.
14:35:28 <I440r> lol
14:35:35 <Ray-work> But that guy don't know me.
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14:35:43 <Ray-work> Not like ya'll do.
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14:35:49 <Ray-work> Ya'll know I'm not funny.
14:37:10 <tathi> "self-conscious"
14:39:22 <Ray-work> man, I'm getting Conscious and Conscience confused again. Was there and their for a while, also thier and their. Thanks tathi. Keep up the good work. I know it's hard but you worked on a farm and you are obviously not afraid of hard work. 
14:39:35 <tathi> lol
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14:41:32 <Ray-work> hey there's Quartus. Look everybody, Quartus. Wave to Quartus. I know you can't stay long so, here's your chance to say something and duck out. I suggest using it wisely like telling Raystm2 to f-o! :)
14:41:56 <Quartus> Netsplit.
14:41:59 <Ray-work> ya. 
14:42:03 <Ray-work> saw that. 
14:42:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus
14:42:15 <Ray-work> you and warpzero out in Austrailia?no?
14:42:22 <I440r> that happens more and more on this network
14:42:42 <Ray-work> for me, it's tippically my baby kitty playing with the phoneline.
14:42:44 <Quartus> I'm still not seeing anything other than my own text, on this account.
14:42:49 <Ray-work> yikes
14:43:03 <I440r> how can you respond then ?
14:43:11 <Ray-work> he has more then one account.
14:43:21 <I440r> oh lol
14:43:24 <Ray-work> he is several people if I recall.
14:43:25 <I440r> oh yea
14:43:30 <I440r> he is logged in twice :)
14:43:42 <Quartus> My mobile device is showing the channel just fine.
14:43:56 <I440r> theres alot of ppl in here i nver talked to
14:43:59 <Ray-work> he's nanstm, and he's arke, and he's tathi, and he's werty.
14:44:05 <I440r> kiuke sukoshi
14:44:12 <I440r> and skas
14:44:21 <I440r> frunobulax 
14:44:33 <I440r> bayghn
14:44:40 <I440r> lol
14:44:48 <I440r> i believe he might just be werty :)
14:44:53 <I440r> has werty ever been in here ?
14:45:17 <Ray-work> Notice how they are never in the same place at the same time.
14:45:23 <I440r> lol
14:45:25 <Ray-work> lol
14:45:31 <I440r> that might just be one avoiding the other tho hah
14:45:44 <Quartus> getting older messages now, one at a time.
14:45:53 <Ray-work> smart. Anti-partical should never come into contact with partical.
14:46:17 <Ray-work> ut oh, i'm introuble, one message at a time. /me shaking.
14:47:17 <Quartus> Hey I440r, what do you think of this C:  char digit(unsigned u) { return (u += '0', u + (u > '9') * 7); }
14:48:42 <I440r> lol
14:48:46 <Ray-work> that's looking like something i've seen recently...
14:49:34 <I440r> i dont like that , mechanism in that code
14:49:44 <Quartus> Alternatively,     char digit2(unsigned u) { return ((u < 10) ? u + '0' : u - 10 + 'A'); }
14:49:51 <I440r> its rarely used tho so i dont have to cringe over it often lol
14:49:55 <Ray-work> okay okay just now noticed that , in the code, thanks I440r.
14:50:24 <Quartus> The first one is the C equivalent of      : digit ( u -- char )  [char] 0 +  dup [char] 9 >  7 and  + ;
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14:51:05 <I440r> how can the 7* be the same as 7 and + ?
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14:51:24 <Quartus> Booleans in C are 1 or 0.  In Forth, all-bits-set or 0.
14:51:38 <TheBlueWizard> the C code use compare and set the flag, then multiply it by 7
14:51:45 <I440r> oh right
14:52:15 <Ray-work> TheBlueWizard: can I pm please?
14:52:22 <arke> hmm
14:52:22 <Quartus> gcc seems to generate the best code for the first example (with *7)
14:52:27 <arke> what does the comma notation in C does?
14:52:35 <arke> I haven't seen anything like that.
14:52:37 <TheBlueWizard> Ray-work: sure, go ahead
14:52:51 <arke> well, I have
14:52:53 <I440r> your lucky lol 
14:52:55 <arke> I assume the second part is returned?
14:53:00 <arke> and the first is just executed?
14:53:03 <Quartus> arke, it's a sequence point.  Yes.
14:53:09 <arke> ah.
14:53:10 <I440r> its another way to totally obfuscate the code
14:53:29 <I440r> it allows you to make one line do multiple things
14:53:36 <arke> so it looks like
14:53:38 <TheBlueWizard> arke: the comma operator lets yo evaluate expressions in a series, and use the result of the last expression.  the previous results are ignored
14:53:39 <Quartus> The alternative would be something like     u += '0' + (u > '9') * 7     which has all kinds of undefined behaviour.
14:53:50 --- nick: Ray-work -> Raystm2
14:54:18 <I440r> yea using x += y + z is bad lol
14:54:40 <Quartus> I440r, I was the cause of much consternation in c.l.f for posting  : digit ( u -- char )  [char] 0 +  dup [char] 9 >  7 and  + ;
14:54:51 <Quartus> Got a couple of people quite worked up.
14:54:54 <arke> : digit '0 + dup '9 > 7 and + ; ... ahh, thats what quartus wrote too .)
14:55:33 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
14:56:31 <I440r> why ?
14:56:53 <Quartus> A couple of the peanut gallery feel that using AND in this way lets the devil in.
14:57:06 <I440r> arke '0 thru '9 are stupid looking to me, they are half quoted... i prefer 'x' 
14:57:24 <arke> I440r: both work :)
14:57:25 <arke> : digit2 dup 10 < if '0 + else 10 - 'A + then ;
14:57:26 <I440r> i also dont like pygmy;s way of doing (xyz  words instead of (xyz) words
14:57:51 <I440r> quartus bah. 
14:57:58 <Quartus> 'dangerous', 'obfuscated', etc.
14:58:00 <I440r> thats exactly how isforth does it :)
14:58:08 <I440r> its not obfuscated at all
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14:58:19 <arke> Quartus: if they're afraid of dangerous and obfuscated, why are they using C? :)
14:58:27 <I440r> lol
14:58:30 <I440r> ^5
14:58:34 <absentia> argh.
14:58:35 <Quartus> heh
14:58:35 <Quartus> true
14:58:44 <absentia> irc died... could someone put the last 50 lines fmor here to pastebin for me?
14:58:47 <Quartus> the network is having major issues right now!
14:58:51 <arke> (to be fair, C can be written to be absolutely beautiful, but most people write really ugly C :P)
14:59:18 <arke> absentia: theres a channel logger
14:59:22 <arke> meme.b9.com i think
14:59:25 <absentia> ya? cool. how do I useit?
14:59:34 <arke> one sec
14:59:37 <I440r> ok im pissed off, there are exactly ZERO arm assemblers for the pocket pc that i can find
14:59:43 <absentia> ah, not a bot.
14:59:45 <I440r> thats seriously annoying lol
15:00:01 <arke> absentia: http://ircbrowse.com/channel/forth/20070102
15:00:09 <Quartus> I440r, I'm telling you, make room on your daily calendar for hating that WM device. :)
15:00:17 <absentia> thanks!
15:00:17 <I440r> lol
15:00:18 * absentia reads
15:00:26 <I440r> i had similar issues with the palm
15:00:36 <absentia> I love the zaurus
15:00:41 <Quartus> Yes, but you're just at the tip of the iceberg with the WM.
15:01:44 <I440r> just turned the gps on to see how long it lasts
15:02:12 <Quartus> I440r, if you're not actually on the move, it'll be in lower-power mode.
15:03:26 <I440r> it suynced up inside!
15:03:34 <I440r> the old one never would
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15:04:46 * absentia is sorry he missed the language discussion.
15:07:40 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
15:07:41 * absentia just listened to D.B.'s Life on Mars.
15:10:26 <absentia> slava: have you seen any c interpreters for dev?  and there's "ch" for a c++ shell.. etc.
15:12:00 <absentia> slava: there was a post today in c.l.l that had assembly in the code.  (I saved it)
15:12:46 <Quartus> I440r, in 2D or 3D?
15:13:05 <absentia> quartus:  embedded lisp -- or embeddable lisp (ie: guile?)
15:13:37 <Quartus> absentia, nowadays you could embed COBOL, there's so much memory & CPU.  That's not what I'm talking about.
15:13:50 <Quartus> 'embedded EMACS' is not what I'm thinking of :)
15:14:10 <absentia> heheh
15:14:15 <absentia> I knew a guy who had emacs as his login shell.
15:14:27 <absentia> I've had perl as my login shell before.
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15:14:46 <mark4> marcel hendrix just plugged #forth! lol
15:15:01 <mark4> has he ever been in here ?
15:15:01 <Quartus> it had a leak? :)
15:15:06 <Quartus> yes, he's in here now.
15:15:12 <absentia> who is mh?
15:15:21 <mark4> which one is he ?
15:15:37 <Quartus> He's hiding, in a crafty Dutch kind of way, with his name in cleartext in his info. :)
15:16:08 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:17:12 <absentia> and murray head? mh? one night in bangkok ?
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15:17:37 <I440r_> grrrr
15:17:53 <I440r_> ok help me out lol i cant do /whois on everyone because i keep disconnecting now
15:18:05 <Quartus_> starts with f
15:18:31 <I440r_> cool!
15:18:37 <I440r_> is he going to be a regular in here now ?
15:18:39 <I440r_> if so OP him
15:19:07 <Quartus_> don't know.
15:19:32 <frunobulax> I'm just r^Htesting.
15:19:55 <absentia> Q -- you do know that Moore spent awhile experimenting with a programming language that had no source code?
15:20:06 <absentia> what was the result? what was he aiming for? got a url/reference?
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15:21:14 <I440r__> grrrr
15:21:27 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
15:21:34 --- nick: I440r__ -> I440r
15:21:39 <Quartus> absentia, no URL. It went nowhere and did nothing.
15:22:01 <absentia> :-)
15:22:08 <absentia> been there, done that.
15:22:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
15:22:13 --- mode: I440r set +o frunobulax
15:22:16 <I440r> :)
15:22:54 <frunobulax> Who to kick now?
15:23:08 <TreyB> Uh oh.
15:23:12 <Quartus> The one who opped you, of course.
15:23:18 <zpg> hi.
15:23:23 <Quartus> hi zpg
15:24:12 <zpg> Quartus.
15:24:53 * TreyB wonders if he can debug a C++ application that itself tries to act as a debugger for another C++ applicatoin under Win32.
15:25:15 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
15:26:45 <Quartus> TreyB, to debug a debugger, you need a debugger debugger.  If that one has a bug, you need a debugger debugger debugger.
15:27:17 <TreyB> I feared as much.
15:27:42 * absentia implodes.
15:27:49 <I440r> lol
15:28:01 <I440r> frunobulax u going to be regular in here ?
15:28:16 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
15:28:54 <absentia> aha! /me figured out who mh is!
15:29:00 <I440r> lol
15:30:58 <zpg> TreyB: you may well be buggered.
15:31:04 <zpg> de- or otherwise.
15:31:39 <absentia> ah, nano irc... ya, I downloaded that a few days ago.
15:31:40 <absentia> :-)
15:32:30 <I440r> cant add mhx, his nick isnt regged
15:37:06 <I440r> i wrote an isforth do nothing irc bot a cpl of years ago
15:38:03 --- quit: frunobulax ("a quit that really quits")
15:40:19 --- quit: zpg ("brb")
15:41:22 <virl> btw. how should Factor be used in a real application like a chat client? or a Textprocessor?
15:42:41 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-178-111-82.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth
15:47:25 <I440r> next thing ya know we will get Albert V in here lol
15:47:45 <I440r> i dont like his assemblers tho, too weird
15:48:37 <virl> oh really?
15:58:17 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:03:52 <tathi> he seems rather odd in general
16:05:41 <I440r> but he codes forth :)
16:05:49 <I440r> so that in and of itself makes him odd :)
16:06:02 <zpg> I440r: why is "cell" a bullshit word?
16:06:23 <I440r> because its an attempt at something thats not achievable
16:06:25 <I440r> portable code
16:06:43 <I440r> and i think you shouldnt try writing portable code
16:06:44 <virl> why is he 'odd'
16:07:03 <I440r> therefore when you write some code you KNOW your cell size
16:07:11 <zpg> I440r: running my forth programmes on the palm and the desktop is convenient.
16:07:15 <zpg> requires very little modification.
16:07:38 <I440r> but still requires modification. which in forth is usually trivial
16:07:49 <zpg> well usually none
16:07:53 <zpg> sometimes a library needs to be sucked in.
16:07:57 <I440r> which is why i objected to the invention of "invert"
16:08:46 <I440r> i added cell cell+ etc to isforth on request tho
16:08:53 <virl> cells are nice, imho
16:08:56 <zpg> in place of? explicit bytes
16:09:03 <zpg> +?
16:09:03 <I440r> but i hate them. isforth is a THIRTY-TWO bit forth :)
16:09:16 <tathi> 4+ 4*
16:09:24 <I440r> exactly
16:09:29 <zpg> ugly.
16:09:36 <tathi> yeah
16:09:40 <I440r> i think cell+ cell* are ugly
16:09:49 <I440r> 4+ tells u exactly what your adding
16:09:52 <I440r> and its less verbose
16:10:04 <TreyB> But CELL+ tells exactly what you *mean*.
16:10:09 <tathi> but it doesn't tell you if the author means cell+ or 4+
16:10:15 <zpg> why, they make good sense. and i don't restrict myself to one platform. unlike you, i like my code to be portable.
16:10:19 <tathi> ...what TreyB said
16:10:49 <I440r> no 4+ tells you what you mean too
16:11:10 <virl> 4+ tells you that you add 4 to a number
16:11:29 <virl> but cell+ tells you that you add the acumulator size to a number 
16:12:15 <virl> which is a difference, the size of it depends on the opinion.
16:12:24 <tathi> eh.  we're wasting our time.
16:12:58 <zpg> quite. 
16:13:08 <tathi> I had a place once where I needed cell+ and 4+ in the same word, and I440r *still* wouldn't agree that it was more readable with cell+ :)
16:13:28 <I440r> i dont like cell+
16:13:32 <zpg> whatever gets you through the day i guess.
16:13:42 <I440r> i see no problem in seeing what i mean when i use 4+
16:13:45 <I440r> the context tells u
16:18:15 <I440r> sorry, the maintanance guy for my apt is here
16:18:20 <virl> whatever
16:18:28 <I440r> fixing my broken crap lol
16:41:51 <Quartus> cut I440r some slack, he just finds writing portable code harder than most people do :)
16:44:54 <Quartus> He's hardcore, never uses ++ in C, always uses +=2 or whatever the size of the type is. :)
16:46:05 <tathi> :)
16:46:08 <zpg> heh
16:46:27 <Quartus> none of that 'sizeof' crap, that's just aiming for the IMPOSSIBLE.
16:46:56 <virl> bah.. like one of those OOP guys with their thousands and thousands of nesting classes accesses.
16:46:56 <zpg> any schmo can come along and just ... port the source!
16:47:23 <Quartus> sure, why write for portability when you can write code that *has* to be re-written for a new target instead? 
16:47:27 <Quartus> Hmm, wait.
16:47:53 <Quartus> Oh, I know this one.  It's when you NEVER WRITE CODE THAT RUNS IN ANYTHING BUT YOUR OWN PECULIAR FORTH. :)
16:48:21 <zpg> Huffman anyone?
16:48:25 * zpg ducks
16:48:56 <virl> packing source in double words?
16:49:06 <tathi> yeah.  the IsForth sources used to have all kinds of x86-specific assumptions.
16:49:31 <virl> but retroforth is prettier
16:49:33 <zpg> I440r's pretty explicit about it being an X86-only system though, so fair enough.
16:49:56 <Quartus> ever since crc put that pink bow on retroforth, it's been *adorable*.
16:50:01 <tathi> I removed pretty much all of them when I was playing with a PPC port.
16:50:05 <tathi> lol
16:50:07 <virl> retroforth is thousand times prettier than that thing
16:50:20 <Quartus> gosh. And that taffeta dress?  Don't get me started.  PRETTY!
16:52:28 <Quartus> zpg, but 4+ does not inform.  No unnamed constant informs.
16:53:33 <Quartus> 0 and 1 are about the only constant that doesn't warrant a name, and even then not always.
16:56:55 <zpg> very true.
16:57:03 <zpg> and then there's that whole decimal abstraction.
16:57:06 <zpg> i mean puh-lease.
16:57:19 <Quartus> ootay pahtah!
16:57:41 <zpg> :)
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17:06:21 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
17:07:21 <Quartus> He's off to spend some quality time with retroforth.
17:07:58 <Quartus> It being so pretty, and all.
17:08:11 <Quartus> And shiny, and stuff.
17:36:50 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
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18:09:52 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection)
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18:59:48 <I440r> quartus not everything needs a name, in fact NAMES can obfuscated more often than not
19:00:01 <Quartus> Crappy names, sure.
19:00:09 <Quartus> Avoid those.
19:00:11 <I440r> i hate it when im on a contract and the source code i look at has ZERO "magic numbers" in it
19:00:24 <Quartus> ...?
19:00:35 <I440r> i.e. if you want to some_variable += 4 you are not allopwed to do it
19:00:37 <I440r> you have to do
19:00:46 <I440r> some_variable += some_obscure_name
19:00:52 <Quartus> what language prevents you from adding 4 to a variable?
19:00:59 <I440r> not language
19:01:03 <I440r> policy
19:01:11 <Quartus> Oh. Sound policy.  What is 4 in that context?
19:01:14 <I440r> the RULES of the company 
19:01:28 <I440r> errr thats bogus
19:01:42 <Quartus> It's your example.
19:02:03 <I440r> for (i = initial_value_of_i; i < ending_value_of_i; i++)\
19:02:10 <I440r> is very difficult to read
19:02:30 <I440r> you have to go HUNT the right .h file or whever those values were buried to get a sense of what the code is doing
19:02:42 <Quartus> if you're suggesting the actual names would be 'initial_value_of_i' and 'ending_value_of_i', I agree, that's difficult to read.  Bad naming.
19:03:07 <I440r> how about pulsons_fulminator_fudge_factor
19:03:19 <I440r> or some other "meaningful" name
19:03:37 <Quartus> You're just making up random bad names. I agree, bad names are bad.
19:04:22 <I440r> yes and when you absolutely HAVE to name EVERY SINGLE value in a 40 million line application your guaranteed to have more bad than good
19:04:44 <Quartus> 40 million line application, eh?
19:04:46 <I440r> trust me, 15 years as a consultant has shown that
19:04:54 <I440r> i was just making up a large number lol
19:05:05 <Quartus> Mark, you don't want to draw that sword, I have more years as a consultant than you do. :)
19:05:36 <I440r> most of the code i have had to deal with looks like its 40 million lines of code
19:05:37 <I440r> lol
19:05:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke
19:06:22 <I440r> i agree. naming SOME things is good if you pick good names
19:06:24 <I440r> thats a big if
19:06:29 <I440r> most people do NOT
19:06:33 <Quartus> Bad names are bad; not naming magic numbers is also bad.  I don't welcome either.
19:06:43 <I440r> naming EVERY SINGLE VALUE is moronic and just buries whats going on
19:06:50 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth
19:07:30 <Quartus> Saving count-starts like 0 and 1, I can't think of too many magic numbers that wouldn't benefit of a name.
19:07:44 <I440r> i would rather see absolutely NO names at all on "magic numbers" than "absolutely no magic numbers at all ever for any reason"
19:08:26 <Quartus> If you can come up with a real example wherein a name makes things worse, I'd be interested to review it.
19:08:26 <I440r> not because naming is bad
19:08:33 <I440r> but because most people pick bad names
19:08:58 <I440r> i have alot of memories of them but no specific examples
19:09:14 <Quartus> I don't mean a bad name, of course bad programming examples abound.
19:09:16 <I440r> ive seen some horendous code while working as a consultant
19:09:21 <Quartus> I mean a good name, vs. no name.
19:10:38 <I440r> if its a register thats being bit banged its worse. youhave to go hunt the name, see its value then hunt the register to see what its doing
19:10:57 <I440r> and they usually express the BINARY in decimal
19:11:09 <I440r> some_reg &= ~ 4096  
19:11:18 <I440r> or some crap like that lol
19:11:35 <I440r> not everyone butchers their code like that but i see it WAY too often
19:12:06 <I440r> boss doesnt understand binary because he isnt a coder. he cant read the code anyway but HE insists shit gets done in ALL DECIMAL
19:12:16 <I440r> because hex/binary makes no sense to him
19:12:34 <Quartus> Which is where a name for the magic number 4096 would be helpful
19:12:36 <I440r> or some other bullshitism like that
19:12:50 <I440r> some
19:13:05 <I440r> sometimes its NOT easy to give a BIT a meaningful name
19:13:12 <Quartus> Example?
19:14:25 <I440r> i have plenty of them in the back of my mind that i shudder to remember
19:15:21 <I440r> i cannot give you an EXACT example, its just memories of the absoloute SHIT ive had to deal with in the past
19:15:45 <I440r> most people who call themselves "software engineers" should have the keyboard forceably removed
19:16:40 <I440r> one function. single switch statement. 8 or 9 pages in length.  each case is a 6 case switch statement. each case is a 6 case switch statement, each case is a.... ad infinitum
19:16:46 <I440r> yes, ive seen that crap
19:17:06 <Quartus> of course, there will always be bad code.
19:17:09 <I440r> i hate dealing with legacy code
19:17:31 <I440r> when i worked for landis and gyr they were bought by siemens ptd
19:17:50 <I440r> siemens had spent the last 6 years developing an OOP operating system for power meters
19:18:01 <I440r> they mandated that ALL NEW PRODUCTS would use their OS
19:18:04 <I440r> no exceptions
19:18:17 <I440r> we were developing a low end what hours only meter
19:18:30 <I440r> i could have written the entire thing in a month in assembler
19:18:39 <I440r> the OS was OOPified C
19:18:48 <I440r> we started with the lowes cost processor
19:19:02 <I440r> wouldnt fit, got next larger memory size. ran out
19:19:08 <I440r> bumped up one again
19:19:37 <I440r> in the end we were on the highest end processor in the family and were about a third of the way developed and were running out of space
19:20:16 <I440r> i think after i left the project lasted another 6 months befure it was canned
19:20:27 <I440r> it was a SIMPLE, watt hour only meter
19:20:42 <I440r> no demand, nothing 
19:20:45 <Quartus> Just another typical bad move by a company.
19:20:59 <I440r> but it happens more often than not
19:21:09 <Quartus> Yup, Sturgeon's Law.
19:21:28 <I440r> thats why im a contractor
19:21:37 <Quartus> 95% of contractors are crap, too.
19:21:55 <I440r> because no matter what level of bullshit they have for a project im not emotionally attached to it
19:21:56 <I440r> i go there
19:21:58 <I440r> i do the job
19:21:59 <I440r> i leave
19:22:15 <I440r> who gives a fuck if it was an awesome concept with a totally fucked up design team
19:22:23 <I440r> ill do what they pay me to do
19:22:56 <I440r> yea i know. while ive been on this contract they have hired and fired 4 other contractors that were absolutely useless lol
19:23:15 <Quartus> I mean, companies don't often get it right. Contractors don't either.  No magic bullet.
19:23:36 <I440r> i know. but there are times when the bullshit is just too much
19:23:47 <Quartus> So it goes.
19:24:04 <I440r> no. you cannot do that, so what if it saves us 8k and were running out of space!. i dont understand it so you cant do it
19:24:44 <I440r> my fater was on a contract in indianapolis. they hired him specifically to optimize their asm code so they could fit the rest of the design into the space
19:24:54 <I440r> on the first day, in the first hour
19:25:07 <I440r> hye converted all the jsr's followed by a ret into jmp's
19:25:15 <I440r> saved EIGHT K OF SPACE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:25:22 <I440r> they fired him
19:25:24 <Quartus> your dad is werty?
19:25:29 <I440r> no
19:25:32 <I440r> i hope not lol
19:25:36 <I440r> my dad doesnt do clf
19:25:38 <Quartus> :) He put forth a whole rant about jmp vs jsr.
19:25:48 <I440r> its a tail optimization
19:26:08 <I440r> they didnt understand it. they didnt think it would work
19:26:12 <I440r> he showed them it did
19:26:14 <I440r> so they fired him
19:26:19 <I440r> for embarrasing them
19:26:32 <Quartus> so, hopefully he got paid for that afternoon. :)
19:26:40 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
19:26:43 <I440r> his boss was the one who coded it. a meely mouthed female who did "database" coding
19:26:45 <I440r> not embedded
19:26:57 <I440r> she didnt like being shown up THAT MUCH that fast
19:27:19 <I440r> lol
19:27:20 <Quartus> People skills are useful, too. Not common among systems professionals.
19:27:42 <I440r> actually my father is very good at people skills OUTSIDE the familly lol
19:27:50 <Quartus> Not that day, I guess.
19:27:56 <I440r> it wasnt a social engineering problem lol
19:28:23 <I440r> it was the fact that the woman who had coded it was upper management and not up to the task AT ALL
19:28:42 <I440r> my father could have rewritten the entire thing to fit in 4k or less
19:28:53 <I440r> it was 30k when she wrote it
19:29:11 <I440r> they only had 32k
19:29:17 <I440r> he saved 8k right off
19:29:35 <Quartus> Pissed off his employer, and got sacked.
19:29:53 <I440r> she didnt just fire him tho, i think she got him blacklisted, it was like 4 months before either of us could even get a return call from ANY of the agencies we were with
19:30:04 <I440r> didnt piss her off
19:30:10 <Quartus> He didn't please her.
19:30:24 <I440r> showed the entire coding team that their manager was NOT a coder
19:30:26 <I440r> lol
19:31:01 <I440r> he gained some friends in the other contractors that were there and added to his network of people that are usefull to know
19:31:12 <I440r> so it worked out good
19:31:18 <I440r> hated working for walmart tho lol
19:32:32 <Quartus> I can imagine.
19:35:32 <I440r> both my father and i worked for walmart. the price of shares at the time was about $80 a pop
19:35:47 <I440r> as employees we got a very nice discount. when we left we both had about 15 shares
19:36:01 <I440r> 8 years down the line walmart and done a 2:1 split almost every year
19:36:11 <I440r> we had how many shares each do you think ?
19:36:16 <I440r> give it your bestest guess
19:36:22 <Quartus> you said you both had about 15 shares.
19:36:29 <I440r> 150 sorry
19:36:38 <I440r> thats before the 8 years of 2:1 splitting
19:36:41 <I440r> we had
19:36:45 <I440r> Z E R O shares each
19:36:48 <I440r> why ?
19:37:05 <Quartus> Your father pissed somebody else off? :)
19:37:09 <I440r> oh... your not walmart employees any more so theres administrative costs on your account
19:37:15 <I440r> we sole your shares to cover it
19:37:18 <I440r> sold
19:38:07 <Quartus> well, once you left the company, you'd have had to transfer those shares to outside holding.
19:38:14 <Quartus> If I understand the American system properly.
19:38:21 <I440r> it was already in an outside holding
19:38:26 <I440r> it was THEY that sold the shares
19:38:39 <Quartus> Curious.
19:38:55 <I440r> but we would be millionaires rith now if they hadnt done that. or if they had NOTIFIED us they were about to
19:39:09 <Quartus> That would be suitable grounds for a lawsuit, here.
19:39:12 <I440r> but by the time we found out there wasnt a damned thing we could do abiut it
19:39:23 <Quartus> That would compound it.
19:39:39 <I440r> totally ripped us off. BIG TIME
19:39:45 <I440r> but it wasnt walmart that did it
19:39:52 <Quartus> No, I understand.
19:40:16 <I440r> sometimes it pisses me off but then its just one of those things that happens
19:40:25 <I440r> the world is not an honest place
19:41:59 <I440r> so i guess mhx left lol
19:42:12 <Quartus> Yes, a while back.
19:42:13 <I440r> how did you know that was him btw ?
19:42:33 <Quartus> I looked at his info.
19:42:44 <I440r> ok
19:43:50 <I440r> has sukoshi ever said anything in here ?
19:43:55 --- join: absentia (n=scott@ns6.lobodirect.com) joined #forth
19:43:58 <Quartus> Yes, couple of times.
19:44:01 <I440r> i /msg'd him a few times but i get no response
19:44:09 <Quartus> maybe he's unregistered.
19:44:31 <I440r> ya
19:44:34 <I440r> maybe
19:44:52 <I440r> the freenode anal retentive crap bites again
19:44:59 <I440r> "but it stops all the spam!!!"
19:45:17 <I440r> yes. in or more years of being here ive had ZERO or less spammers message me
19:45:28 <I440r> BEFORE they enacted that bullshit
19:45:50 <I440r> err in 8 or more
19:46:00 <I440r> wtf happened to my 8 there! lol
19:46:11 <Quartus> someone 8 it
19:46:15 <I440r> i cant remember how long ive been on this network
19:46:16 <I440r> lol
19:46:23 <I440r> or it 8 itself :P
19:47:28 <I440r> god why does werty continue to bullshit clf ?
19:47:33 <I440r> who the fsck is he ?
19:47:43 <I440r> he has absolutely nothing inteligent to say
19:47:44 <I440r> ever!
19:47:50 <zpg> hi, lol.
19:48:01 <Quartus> hi zpg
19:48:38 <I440r> he is a very sic individual and i think his postings are a cry for help
19:48:46 <zpg> dedicated OOP watt hour OSes sound a little nightmarish.
19:48:56 <zpg> I440r: you're kidding, right?
19:49:02 <I440r> why did ER even respond to him
19:49:03 <I440r> no
19:49:11 <Quartus> She was responding to Coughlin.
19:49:13 <I440r> it was mandated by siemens ptd of europe
19:49:19 <Quartus> Who forms full sentences, but is otherwise daft.
19:49:22 <zpg> "he's" probably in hysterics every time "he" posts.
19:50:06 <zpg> hi absentia 
19:50:06 <I440r> well she still responded. maybe she wasnt responding TO him but countering his arguement so her customers or potential customers wouldnt freak lol
19:50:18 <Quartus> Oh I don't know. Everybody responds to a troll at some point.
19:50:29 <I440r> er usually doesnt
19:50:40 <I440r> CLF should be moderated
19:50:51 <zpg> there's a pretty low noise-rate.
19:50:53 <Quartus> the s/n isn't too bad
19:50:55 <I440r> but only to rm -rf werty's posts lol
19:51:08 <zpg> they aren't doing any harm.
19:51:39 <TreyB> heh: slrn reported "no new posts (3 killed)".  Guess who posted the killed messages ;-)
19:51:59 <I440r> erm.... erm...
19:52:12 <I440r> who kills them ?
19:52:32 <zpg> TreyB, presumably.
19:52:45 <I440r> ?
19:52:49 <TreyB> My news reader.  I have all messages from werty marked for removal before I see them.
19:52:56 <I440r> lol
19:53:23 <I440r> including responses to them ?
19:54:11 <TreyB> I don't think so.  I think I have it set up only to ignore From: werty*
19:54:50 <zpg> You'll miss the epic emergence of Wertyette, be warned.
19:55:01 <TreyB> I don't think so :-)
19:57:31 <I440r> lol
19:57:33 <I440r> wertyette ?
19:57:37 <I440r> werty is getting married ?
19:58:16 <Quartus> Perhaps just an unfortunate canoe accident.
19:58:22 * zpg chuckles
19:58:25 <I440r> lol
19:58:45 <zpg> I440r: i wouldn't want to break my oath to werty on this one. private affairs and all that.
19:59:10 <I440r> lol
19:59:17 <I440r> zpg is marrying werty!
19:59:19 <I440r> lol
19:59:38 <zpg> you could misinterpret it that way, sure.
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20:15:50 <I440r> i just did a channel list lol
20:16:08 <I440r> no wonder we are getting so many splits here now
20:16:32 <I440r> when i first joined this network there were only 8 or 9 channels lol
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20:56:54 <zpg> hi slava 
21:01:23 <I440r> wshich came first, jedit or eclipse ?
21:01:31 <slava> jedit
21:01:43 <slava> eclipse came much later
21:02:05 <I440r> did they base eclipse on jedit ?
21:02:10 <slava> no
21:02:25 <slava> eclipse uses a different gui toolkit, and an incompatible license
21:02:44 <I440r> eclipse has a huge following now
21:02:53 <slava> i don't like it
21:02:59 <I440r> me either
21:03:08 <I440r> too complificated
21:03:20 <slava> why are you using it?
21:03:26 <I440r> im not
21:03:27 <slava> for java?
21:03:28 <slava> oh
21:03:38 <I440r> i tried it lol
21:03:40 <I440r> eep no
21:04:20 <I440r> i tried to learn java but all those liub functions with 965 character names scared me :)
21:04:28 <I440r> lib 
21:04:44 <slava> i wrote some java last night, to test a feature of swing
21:04:48 <slava> it was painful
21:05:09 <I440r> i thought youy liked java
21:05:28 <slava> you say that every time
21:05:34 <slava> i haven't coded any serious amount of java since 2004
21:05:47 <slava> and from 2003 to 2004 i was mostly working on the java implementation of factor :)
21:05:53 <slava> which is defunct now
21:05:53 <I440r> :)
21:39:37 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc")
21:44:04 <slava> " ha ha ha ha ...  I am the worlds greatest systems programmer ,
21:44:05 <slava>  but an unskilled teacher ..... 
21:45:52 <Quartus> "  Go on , ignore that !!! Oh ,i see , you're a female
21:45:52 <Quartus>  they can ignore anything ..... 2+2=4 .
21:45:53 <Quartus> "
21:46:32 <slava>    I have just proven my programming abilities . 
21:47:08 <slava> "[Pntr_to]   "MyFile" , [Store]  ... " -- i thought NewForth doesn't need a file system
21:47:13 <Quartus> shh
21:47:29 <Quartus> That's NotAsNewForth, aka SlightyOlderForth
22:09:35 --- quit: zpg ("night all")
22:18:44 --- quit: I440r ()
22:24:30 <absentia> oh?
23:50:49 <ASau> Good morning!
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/07.01.02