00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.26 00:00:45 --- quit: slava () 00:39:27 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 01:49:51 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 05:04:55 --- quit: Shine (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:06:40 --- join: Shine (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-178-200.netcologne.de) joined #forth 05:24:02 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-178-213-172.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth 06:18:29 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:20:40 Good morning. And Happy Boxing Day, zpg 06:28:10 hey Ray_work, you too. 06:39:16 ty. :) 06:43:00 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E07D42.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:43:08 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:43:22 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 06:43:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 06:43:48 Good morning, Josh. 06:44:06 hi Ray 06:44:11 How was your Christmas? 06:44:23 Pretty neat! and yours? 06:44:31 It was good. 06:44:55 Did I tell you I got more then $20,000.oo in gifts this year. 06:45:04 yeah, I heard :) 06:45:06 very cool 06:45:39 Very, indeed. I'm so excited. Lots of work and priorities have been modified... , well get there. 06:45:49 we'll even 06:46:51 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 06:56:14 --- quit: zpg ("out") 07:11:08 --- quit: ellisway (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 07:52:02 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 08:32:34 Hey. 08:33:13 --- quit: ayrnieu (No route to host) 08:38:15 morn' 08:42:20 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 08:55:47 --- quit: tathi ("bbl") 09:10:09 --- join: ellisway (n=ellis@host-87-74-241-174.bulldogdsl.com) joined #forth 09:28:10 What's up? 09:36:59 who coded a C parser in forth? 09:46:19 I wish someone would code a dentist in forth and take out all of my teeth and then kill me. 09:46:44 That sounds painful. Trouble with your teeth? 09:47:28 ya lower jaw pain. I believe it's inflamation due to caffeine. just had a cup of coffee and I don't usually drink it. 09:47:42 Hmm. 09:47:54 Maybe heat-sensitivity due to an abscess. 09:48:23 :) by the time I got to drink it it was cold but the entire idea was to warm up. 09:48:41 See a dentist. 09:48:50 no. 09:49:00 I don't wanna. 09:49:05 Well, your argument is convincing, but I still suggest you see a dentist. :) 09:49:35 I'm trying to get in at the Baylor Dental Collage. 09:49:46 Cheeper, well supervised students. 09:49:51 Good idea, they should be able to spot anything obvious anyway. 09:50:03 My entire mouth is obvious. :( 09:50:13 Many years of neglect. :( 09:50:31 You can get back to level again with a bit of work. 09:50:37 Ya. 09:58:13 going mobile in search of coffee 09:58:51 We have some... 09:59:06 I could fax you one. 09:59:21 hmm. :) 10:00:14 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@pool-71-164-175-60.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 10:01:21 no fax machine! :) 10:02:13 though I have at least four fax modems, I'm sure one of them could be coerced into receiving. 10:06:14 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 10:06:19 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-178-200.netcologne.de) joined #forth 10:06:34 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 10:11:01 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 10:11:01 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 10:11:52 hey tathi 10:15:22 hi Quartus 10:15:52 merry xmas etc :) 10:17:10 ya, likewise :) 10:35:45 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 10:41:50 werty's been exceptionally verbose the last couple of days. 10:43:54 A double helping of werty goodness. 10:45:57 coughlin stepped up to defend werty, which I find pretty funny. 11:01:24 * absentia is werty. 11:01:50 I doubt that. You form whole sentences. 11:02:23 rofl. couldn't even fake it. 11:02:35 heh 11:10:40 you do know about as little about Forth as werty does, though :) 11:14:52 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:29:47 is the only topic today werty? 11:30:25 why is this guy funny? 11:48:15 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E05DF8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:53:11 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 12:05:39 hi nighty 12:08:35 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:10:10 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 12:10:40 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 12:16:41 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 12:38:28 --- part: Sukoshi left #forth 12:39:53 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 12:51:08 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 13:08:31 halejulia! I found this creepy TOS, pfew.. 13:16:04 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 13:16:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 13:33:08 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:33:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 13:41:57 luddite 13:42:08 THINK!!! 13:42:23 YOU ARE ALL FOOLS !!! 13:43:11 well, except for Coughlin, who is clearly no fool, and thinks werty is a Super-Genius. 13:43:18 haha 13:45:57 you seem to be groupies of werty 13:46:13 feel free to make more interesting discussion... 13:46:48 a game engine in forth? 13:46:55 yes, i'd love to see one 13:47:25 well, that *was* interesting. 13:48:51 was interesting? heh, come on, what are problematic pieces of a game engine? a slim design, so that it's performance doesn't gets eaten by the dog. 13:50:00 and all those nice SSE, MMX, 3dnow stuff of the cpu. so it starts at this code level which is quite difficult for C ANS forths to get it right. 13:51:45 for example gforth, it's not easy, only when you have a customized version of it. on the other side of the track you would need to 'detect' where the TOS is, because the nice funky compiler places them anywhere but not there where you would need it. 13:52:43 pff. speed isn't an issue; people write games in Python :) 13:53:06 if you use opengl you can offload a large portion of the rendering logic onto the gpu 13:53:08 optimization is a separate issue. 13:53:09 you say it's not, but I think that it is. 13:54:06 I think that games which only build on the assumption that there is a lot of ressource which can be wasted, aren't good ones. 13:54:20 programmer time is a resource too 13:55:38 what's your point? doing commercially fast patched togeter crap or doing good stuff? 13:56:11 so this isn't so much about a game engine in forth, as a springboard for you to rant against Standard Forth because register allocation varies between implementations. 13:56:12 i just make crap 13:57:26 virl: are you working on a game engine? 13:57:48 not yet, I was only fascinated into the idea. 14:00:37 which forth would you use then? 14:01:11 * tathi has started a little game with gforth + Xlib 14:01:31 cool 14:04:14 at the moment, it's difficult. I mean there is on one hand are those Standard systems, which are big and include stuff which shouldn't be placed into a game engine, and on the other hand there are small forths like retroforth, which are nice, but they are unstable. 14:04:55 its hard to make a case that standard forths are big, in today's day and age. 14:05:27 true. 14:05:52 what do you think is big? 14:06:34 ok, when I compare a forth system like gforth with squeak, then it's damn small. 14:06:48 squeak 3.8 image is 17mb 14:06:53 a Standard system can be about 16k. 14:06:53 sbcl 1.0 image is 22mb 14:07:01 factor image is 6mb 14:07:14 i don't even know how big java is, its huge 14:07:58 but that's like comparing apples and eggs 14:08:07 gforth runs less than 200k as I recall. 14:08:13 that's tiny. 14:09:07 yeah, my gforth binary (the CVS version) is about 112k 14:09:20 a standard system need be no larger than retroforth is. As I've pointed out before, retroforth really doesn't differ much from a minimal standard system. 14:10:04 and if you're going to make a game, the data (graphics and sound) are going to dwarf the executable, no matter what you use. 14:10:12 but it's prettier. 14:10:39 Prettier? What do you mean by that? 14:10:42 to dwarf the executable? what should that mean? wasn't a dwarf a small human 14:11:09 virl: the data will take up FAR more space 14:11:16 he means the sound + graphics will be orders of magnitude larger than the engine. 14:11:22 the executable will look like a dwarf next to the data :) 14:11:41 tathi, thanks I know that data is most times a lot of larger than the engine. 14:14:28 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 14:15:44 argh, when I compare the documentation of gforth with the documentation of retroforth, then retroforth is much better documented. 14:16:38 in what specific regard? Bear in mind I've actually read both. 14:17:55 words? for example what's 'WordInfo'? 14:19:09 and what's a nfa? 14:20:24 wordinfo.fs is one of the implementation files for SEE.FS. 14:20:58 NFA is a term dating back to very early Forths, it refers to the Name Field Address in a dictionary header. 14:21:21 and why it's in the main dictionary and not into it's own wordlist? 14:21:55 Gforth reveals all of its implementation factors. RetroForth doesn't -- rf doesn't have wordlists out of the box, but it has quite a few internal subroutines that are completely inaccessible. 14:22:22 You can build a kernel image without see.fs in it at all, if you like. 14:23:17 NFA is explained in the Gforth manual. 14:24:30 how do you build a kernel image without using the source package? so only the files in /usr/share 14:25:50 You'd change startup.fs and rebuild gforth.fi via the makefile, I think. I've never built a custom gforth kernel, though I have built images. 14:27:04 oh, without the source at all? You need the source to do a rebuild. 14:27:14 of anything, really. 14:27:36 Including retroforth. 14:28:42 In this case the source would be startup.fs, and whatever gforthmi needs, as far as I can see from a casual glance at the makefile. 14:28:58 but retroforth is so small that this is acceptable. gforth needs it's image file. 14:29:39 If a 100K executable and 190K image file makes a rebuild 'unacceptable' to you, it's not the fault of the documentation. 14:30:37 that's not the point, the point is that gforth needs to load the image file 14:31:15 and then you need a script which makes: gforth --image-file=FILE 14:31:28 To load an application image, yes. 14:31:36 gforth.fi is loaded by default. 14:35:17 So no command-line option is needed. 14:40:13 Not all of rf's visible words are documented, either. *-deprecated, prefix-handler, , shadow, ui, and a bunch of others. 14:41:25 The usual practice is to document the facilities that are intended for use by the application programmer, and not to create dependence on the internal facilities that may change, especially in a Forth that's still pre-release. 14:41:35 --- quit: JasonWoof ("leaving") 14:44:57 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-26-248.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:44:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 14:50:36 I just checked the rf docs. Fewer than 60% of the words visible in the dictionary at startup are documented in RetroForth manual. 14:51:11 That's not a problem, but it illustrates what I was saying above about usual practice. 14:53:21 i don't think retroforth is 'pre-release'. isn't it at version 9.0 or something by now? 14:53:46 slava, that's the version number, but it's still in a state of flux. 14:55:14 Gforth is 'released', too, but I mean it in the broader sense. 15:03:29 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:14:52 slava: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex.femdom/browse_frm/thread/33bd5edfdc698387/00ba9ffed34d680c?lnk=st&q=gavino&rnum=4 15:15:11 you already showed me that one last night :) 15:15:22 it's funny enough for a second go-round :) 15:19:13 haha 15:19:18 are you in boston? 15:20:06 Heh. No. 15:20:07 Toronto 15:20:13 oh 15:20:16 i'm in ottawa 15:20:25 I knew that. 15:20:58 That msg came up on gavino's profile, I'm not a regular reader. :) hehe 15:57:42 --- quit: absentia ("Leaving") 16:09:57 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 17:03:18 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:11:02 I went to a dentist. 17:11:19 and? 17:11:29 I'm getting a mouth. I think I've bitten off more then I can chew. 17:11:38 a mouth? 17:12:18 i should get a mouth one of these days. i want a big one 17:12:30 Ya. Actually, I'm getting a quote on a mouthful of replacement teeth. They are all ( well most ) too far gone to save. 17:12:48 ouch 17:12:52 what happened? 17:13:11 yikes. Might want to look into some non-surgical alternatives to restoring your gum & teeth health. I've heard reports of herbal compresses that can do a great deal of good. 17:13:26 There is no excuse for it. I didn't take care of myself and now i'm paying for it in pain and cash. 17:13:42 were you a smoker? 17:13:44 I think it's colorForth. 17:14:13 slava: still. 17:14:27 Raystm2, seriously, the dentist wants to sell you services & prosthetics, so you might just want to get a second opinion, and investigate non-medical alternatives before letting somebody yank all your teeth out. 17:16:48 For instance, you could try some of the herbs here: http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/Article.asp?Id=868 17:17:28 Quartus: are you self-employed? 17:17:37 slava, most of the time yes. 17:17:47 is there any forth work being done in toronto? 17:17:57 Ray, read this too: http://www.1sthealthsource.com/articles/teeth/teeth.html 17:18:20 slava, I only know of a few bits & pieces; there could be more. 17:19:22 I know of some Open Firmware stuff, some other custom installations & embedded systems. 17:19:47 Are you considering relocation? :) 17:19:57 well, more idle curiosity 17:20:19 i do finish my masters relatively soon, and i am considering relocation, got no specific place in mind 17:21:03 I don't know how Ottawa compares to Toronto in terms of Forth. IBM does quite a bit of Forth work out of Austin. 17:21:14 IBM? really? 17:21:19 And they were prone to outsourcing to Canada, until recently. 17:21:26 Yes, OF stuff. 17:21:27 what kind of forth work does IBM have? 17:21:35 IBM hardware uses OF? i didn't know that. 17:21:50 slava - well, OpenBoot on the PPC. 17:26:44 slava, considering self-employment yourself? 17:27:18 not at this stage of my life 17:28:06 ayrnieu: in C, "The size of an array is part of its type" is also true 17:28:19 wrong window? 17:28:19 :) 17:28:20 "Related program components must be kept separate" applies to header files 17:28:52 slava, you strike me as the sort who'd do very well, self-employed, both in terms of dollars an in terms of personal satisfaction. 17:29:03 how do you find customers? 17:29:35 Mostly through word of mouth, and inbound on other channels relating to sales & support of my products. 17:29:47 do you develop custom software or just sell your product? 17:30:02 I do both. Support often branches out into contract opportunities. 17:30:17 ok 17:30:40 I get the feeling the corporate world might make you crazy. :) 17:31:18 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 17:31:23 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-249-215.netcologne.de) joined #forth 17:31:35 heh 17:31:39 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 17:31:52 i did java contracting, its mind-numbing 17:31:58 Yes. 17:32:41 Draining, and discouraging, and leaves you little remaining energy to pursue your own projects. 18:06:43 --- quit: ellisway (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:35:22 ray, are you out there? 18:36:40 Drake posted a cf 'hello world' I'd be curious as to your thoughts about: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/7f7912db1a073881 18:53:35 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:05:12 --- join: ellisway (n=ellis@host-87-74-241-174.bulldogdsl.com) joined #forth 20:30:27 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:49:34 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:49:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 22:17:47 --- join: absentia (n=scott@ns6.lobodirect.com) joined #forth 22:24:12 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 23:08:26 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.26