00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.25 00:01:14 wouldn't it even using wordlists? I don't mean that 'attack' but unseriously. 00:02:35 you're deliberately showing an example in Forth that fails to use the features available to do information hiding and then stating that Forth is thus inferior as a choice in which to implement such a thing. 00:03:44 I show someone using SEE to get an address of an otherwise unretriveable variable ; you can do exactly the same thing if the variable is in another wordlist. 00:04:26 and, the thing here that Forth is inferior at doing is -- something almost completely worthless. Something that people regard as a bug when they find it. 00:04:32 if the wordlist is known and accesible to you, yes. That would be the wrong way to do it. 00:05:56 the comment about C at the beginning of the article is an *insult*; the 'architectural openness' is a *compliment*. No, even if the wordlist were hidden, you can find the address with SEE and some poking and then name the variable. 00:06:34 which only reduces the example to an equivalent of the first Forth implementation, which is just as good as the best elisp can possibly get. 00:06:47 In fact it would become an exploratory exercise dependent solely on the nature of your decompilation tools. 00:07:24 sure, but Forths generally give you the tools and the documentation. 00:07:50 your article suggests that the presence of SEE somehow makes Forth a liability for secure applications, which is misleading. 00:08:34 I really don't mean to suggest that. Could you just reply to point out that this isn't the case? 00:09:03 Not from this gadget, no. 00:09:46 OK. The posting is supposed to be humorous -- my only sincere annoyance is with Scheme. 00:11:31 it's just a shame to see Forth get press, but in a light that deliberately avoids showing its strengths in order to highlight a weakness that isn't actually there. 00:16:40 I'm pretty sure that nobody will take it that way, but I'll try to correct them if it comes up. 00:18:36 I took it that way. 00:22:12 speaking in real-world terms, SEE is an optional programmer's tool that would most certainly be made inaccessible in any non-trivial production application, as would the entire dictionary and intepreter, in Forths where it remains at all in the production image. 00:41:36 or all tools or memory words could be adapted so that they don't read from a specific memory area. 00:44:47 but I don't know which forths do that offer, that ability to change fundamental things without much pain. in gforth you need probably to change the primitve definition and then do a recompile. 00:46:06 or you could do the old forth way to add a new definition ontop of the old one. what isn't really secure.. 00:49:42 --- quit: Al2O3 (Remote closed the connection) 00:58:47 and then another question to security is: how is the memory organized? and because of that you can't really know how it is on different forth systems, because that is something which should ANS forth hide, or am I wrong? 01:20:53 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:23:44 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@pool-71-164-175-60.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 02:06:59 --- quit: Crest ("Leaving") 03:33:14 does my answer here clarify anything? http://programming.reddit.com/info/vywm/comments/cvz6q 03:42:14 --- quit: Al2O3 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:08:47 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 04:08:52 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-234-69.netcologne.de) joined #forth 04:09:06 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 04:33:29 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:30:48 virl: unless you want to load and run untrusted code into the interpreter (like applets) this form of security doesn't matter 06:31:00 well, it also limits the damage programming mistakes can do 06:31:23 java and ms c# are the only languages i can think of which offer such security 06:31:27 there's also e, but it runs on the jvm 07:19:02 with Forth, of course, you can retroactively add a lot of this kind of safety to an app with a prologue. 07:20:52 sigh, I love it when someone obviously runs through my recent comments on reddit and dekarams them arbitrarily. It adds to my store of 'oh, just destroy the entire universe' juice. Or maybe it reminds me that the idiots who designed this system are the same people who lost cleartext passwords and then didn't do anything about the lost passwords. 07:20:53 Are the same people who wrote a newby CL-based website, said 'gosh, dealing with poorly-designed software is *tough*!' and then rewrote it to use web.py -- are the same people who only exist because their cretinous, irritating system got attention from Paul Graham. 07:24:53 in a sane world, this would have +100 karma, mins! http://reddit.com/info/vtff/comments/cvz17 :-) but that's it. I can't even vote on that site with lynx/links; I'll write my own interface. 07:25:36 --- quit: Baughn (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:35:12 --- join: Baughn (n=svein@195134062077.customer.alfanett.no) joined #forth 07:44:44 oh brilliant Quartus_, why didn't I come up with such a piece of ingenuity *clap* *clap* 07:48:33 don't work yourself up into a lather, virl. 07:54:19 whatever you say, it's typical for you 08:11:17 --- part: Quartus_ left #forth 08:11:25 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 08:11:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 08:57:49 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 09:44:30 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-132-17.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 09:44:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 09:45:20 Hi crc 09:46:44 hi Quartus_ 09:48:18 how goes? 09:54:58 hi 09:55:13 hey 09:56:48 pretty good so far 09:57:24 good :) 10:00:40 hi crc, how is it shaking? any progress on your projects? 10:19:09 control-flow stack? ans forth expects an own stack for control flow operations? 10:38:02 appy xmas 10:38:31 ta :) 10:50:38 virl, not much since I sent you the last update to toka 10:56:55 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 10:57:16 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 10:57:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 11:27:23 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 11:28:37 --- join: zpg (n=user@85-210-163-138.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth 11:29:06 Evening. 11:30:16 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 12:05:56 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.600 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 12:38:13 hi crc 12:38:17 long time no see 12:38:35 virl: the control flow stack is used at compile-time to store forward references for things like IF 12:38:46 virl: however, ans allows you to use the data stack as the control flow stack 13:00:05 re 13:06:59 hey 13:07:10 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:11:14 hi 13:11:26 hi Quartus_ 13:12:02 SE IS? 13:12:03 SHE IS? 13:12:11 argh 13:12:44 hey slava 13:14:02 abs -- eh? 13:14:19 wrong channel 13:14:25 just trying to be funny. 13:14:27 ah 13:17:38 ABS = anti lock breaking system 13:17:50 braking 13:24:01 abs was short for absentia 13:24:06 :-) 13:24:09 <-- 13:40:20 M e r r y C h r i s t m a s and H a p p y H o l i d a y s ! 13:41:33 you too, ray! 13:41:54 :) 13:41:59 Thanks. 13:45:53 Got a Su Doku machine and a book and a CD ( George Martin's new arrangment of Beatles tunes for Cirque du Soleil. ) and house shoes and a DVD home theater system, and a licence to program in forth, and food and and and whoa, and ... 13:46:11 and the county is gonna fix my house. 13:46:16 What did you get? 13:47:44 I got some toys, movies, books. :) 13:48:09 also a gift of some home remodeling, which is very nice. 13:48:28 You did? That seems to be a theme this year... 13:49:01 then Oprah yells out. "Everybody gets REMODELING.!" 13:49:08 it does indeed :) 13:49:22 heh 13:49:52 Dinner brb. :) 13:49:59 k 14:01:48 virl: you're going to like this one, xml web services in factor: http://useless-factor.blogspot.com/2006/12/on-second-thought.html 14:02:11 uses yahoo web search to define a word which takes a search string as input and pushes an array of search result titles/urls as output 14:05:10 aha, why should I like that? 14:05:19 because you hate xml, etc 14:05:50 etc, etc. :) 14:05:56 that was then sarcasm. 14:06:02 and you think xml parsers make a language bloated 14:07:51 yes and no. 14:08:33 if a language has a lots of features inbuilt then it's bloated, an example for that was a xml parser. 14:09:32 an extra 36kb in the download is a huge amount of bloat 14:09:34 and secondly I don't hate xml, I dislike it. it's not the solution to documents. 14:11:53 but what would you do if you had to write a program to communicate with a web site which only serves xml? 14:13:51 wait, let me help. "Whatever..." 14:14:33 it has something, some feeling of an 'use' but only when you have the right tools, like this xml based manipulation language, what was it called? I played with it in sommer 2005 14:16:13 well, saying that the website was coded by stupid monkeys and then use their stupid xml based services. 14:23:20 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 14:23:25 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-252-29.netcologne.de) joined #forth 14:28:51 virl: or you can be a real xml man instead of calling everyone a stupid monkey 14:30:25 why should I? 14:30:37 because you're a very angry and sad person 14:30:55 xml gets you girls 14:35:15 true. It's Christmas day, and you're on here trying repeatedly to pick a fight; what happened, lump of coal in your stocking? 14:35:50 the real question is 14:35:54 does werty celebrate christmas? 14:36:28 hmm. That's hard to say. :) 14:44:18 --- quit: Shine_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:45:43 xml doesn't gets me girls 14:47:38 and besides that I'm not a angry and sad person. 14:47:59 an angry and sad person in denial. 14:53:13 you can't know that. 14:53:38 not only can I know that, I'm not the only one who does. 14:55:24 aha, well I don't agree what think or would be better. 14:55:38 others think 14:57:08 right, everybody else is a stupid monkey, according to you. 14:57:56 virl - rather, it provides portable stack operators for the control stack that must exist anyway, and far from demanding its own stack for them, it requires an ANS Forth program to take special care with the data stack during compilation. 15:01:15 opinions of others who think that I'm angry or sad are opinions which are void for me and shouldn't be taken in any considerations, because the mass is a terrible thing, a creature which should live in a cage. 15:02:27 you should write a book 15:03:04 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:03:25 I like it. Anyone who disagrees with you is 'the mass', an animal who should be caged. Neat. Nothing angry or sad about that. :) 15:09:43 between that interpretation and the sentence: sry, but I disagree with you. is the same. 15:10:31 whatever 15:12:47 it only means: when you don't accept that I feel different about it then go to a pleasant place and shot yourself. 15:14:45 what is also called 'free speech and democracy' 15:16:22 don't tell me or anybody else here to 'shot themselves', please. That's unwelcome hostility. 15:17:20 that's not hostility 15:17:36 Whatever you call it, stop it now. 15:19:43 well, whatever, humans. 16:16:42 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@pool-71-164-175-60.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:35:04 * JasonWoof waves his eyestalks at virl 16:35:36 hi JasonWoof 16:36:03 hi :) 16:42:16 Hey J :) 16:43:14 --- join: Shine (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-134-0.netcologne.de) joined #forth 16:45:01 hi JasonWoof 16:45:18 hi 16:46:58 waving eyestalks? 16:49:17 virl: you called us humans 16:49:40 well, I was asuming that was directed mostly at quartus 16:49:47 I didn't bother reading the whole conversation though 16:51:09 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E07D42.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:53:42 just as well 16:54:39 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 16:54:40 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 16:54:46 well, I'm allergic on non respecting other people attitude 16:54:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 16:55:23 and that people normally do the opposit resulted in 'humans' 16:57:05 wow, it took this long to understand that you were trying to insult me again. 17:01:22 action -> reaction, this was the reaction. 17:02:55 Always seeking a reaction from people you claim aren't worth listening to. 17:03:43 you are a bright shining annoyance in my life 17:10:07 there's a solution. Stop trying to bait me, and try to have the actual facts before sounding off. 17:17:04 a fact is for you only a piece of text which agrees with your view and not with a view of someone else. 17:18:12 it may surprise you to learn that each 'piece of text' here is actually another real person. 17:18:20 really? 17:18:25 You might keep that in mind. 17:18:30 i thought it was all just werty 17:18:36 multiple facets of one god 17:20:13 well, perhaps we are all mere atoms of werty :) 17:23:24 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-179-104-197.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth 17:23:52 Hi. 17:23:53 hey zpg 17:24:00 Hi Quartus_, good Christmas? 17:24:34 Quartus_: werty has already built the NewForth OpSys. it is called the Universe 17:24:35 yes, quite. You? 17:24:56 we're all 'mid levels', except virl who's a 'prim' 17:25:03 slava, did it take him 2 days? :) and on the 3rd, he trolled. 17:25:07 haha 17:25:28 Quartus_: not bad thanks, some good beer and a rather pleasant day. 17:25:37 nice. :) 17:26:11 It transpires that Guinness even tastes great from a can. 17:26:22 after the 3rd one or so 17:26:32 Heh, not even. 17:26:46 It seems to have left me with convoluted grammar though. 17:27:27 cancer of the semicolon? 17:27:49 Something like that. 17:27:56 seen on reddit: 17:27:56 I see #forth has been rather tense of late. 17:28:03 "Might as well ask this question in a random bar if you're looking for useful opinions. The reddit crowd is a bunch of 19 year old dorks proud of their lisp and erlang Hello Worlds. 17:28:04 Newsflash: people writing serious high use software generally don't waste time on sites like reddit, and especially not on Christmas. 17:28:04 And they're mostly using industrially proven languages like C++ and Perl and Java." 17:28:08 slava: I saw your Yahoo/factor stuff, interesting. 17:28:19 the irony is overwhelming 17:28:44 :) 17:28:44 here we have a guy, who is accusing everybody posting to reddit on xmas of being a 19 year old dork who writes hello worlds 17:29:25 zpg: its not my yahoo/factor stuff, a contributor wrote it. same guy who did the xml parser and xml-rpc implementation 17:30:28 and nobody is proud of their Erlang or Lisp 'hello worlds'. Both languages are terrible at that. 17:30:43 zpg, it's just virl being his usual bitter antagonistic self, and then acting shocked when he gets the very reaction he seeks. Nothing unusual :) 17:30:48 (print "Hello world") seems to work :) 17:30:52 ayrnieu: yeah, save that for colorForthers 17:31:00 slava - that isn't a 'hello world'. 17:31:01 i don't know erlang 17:31:03 ayrnieu: why not? 17:31:17 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 17:31:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 17:31:20 slava: you didn't add the bang. 17:31:30 hi tathi 17:31:33 you want an executable script? 17:31:35 slava: re: contributor -- neat stuff. 17:31:37 hi slava 17:31:53 add a (save-lisp-and-die :executable t) at the end 17:31:55 hey tathi. 17:32:00 slava - because it isn't a cute unix program that you run from a shell and get an immediate reply with -- the whole point of 'hello world' in C and like, and what everyone means when they ask for 'hello world' in grossly inappropriate languages like CL or Erlang. 17:32:13 hi Quartus 17:32:18 ayrnieu: see above, sbcl can generate (huge) executables 17:32:47 slava - ah, great, then you've demonstrated with the popular and recommened open-source SBCL that... 'hello world' requires tens of megabytes of 'executable'. 17:33:11 ayrnieu: what's your point? 17:33:13 didn't prevent java from being popular 17:33:17 how big is a jvm download these days? 17:33:18 30 mb? 17:33:18 40 mb? 17:33:26 and that's compressed... 17:33:43 your hello word will take a whole second to run too :) 17:34:21 slava - and Java people aren't proud of their 'hello world's, either. Look at all that useless coding! System.out.println, wtf? And it takes seconds to start from my shell?! 17:34:45 i don't see many people complaining about sbcl's size 17:36:42 it happens. If you're being defensive about this, then nevermind. It's no great loss that CL and Erlang can't easily make cute little unix executables that do nothing remotely interesting. 17:36:50 I suspect it is more widely used for noodling around than for production apps. 17:37:01 i'm not being defensive 17:37:11 i'm not affiliated with the CL or erlang communities 17:37:34 Quartus_: erlang is used for distributed, concurrent, stuff. very "serious" 17:37:51 I was talking about sbcl. 17:37:53 it was designed by ericcson (hence the 'er') for telephone and atm switches 17:37:54 slava - "I don't see many complaining about sbcl's size" sounds defensive, but OK. 17:38:15 Quartus_: outside of the embedded world, i suspect sbcl is more widely used than forth. 17:38:36 on *nix at least, its probably the most popular implementation. 17:38:36 'Erlang' refers to a mathematician famous in telephony, it isn't short for 'Ericcson Language'. 17:38:54 ok, it did originate from ericcson though. 17:38:57 I don't know, I know lisp is more widely used, but sbcl specifically? In the context of making executables? 17:39:07 in the context of making executables, highly unlikely. 17:39:34 but not all programs are shipped as executables. some are not shipped at all (internal use, web apps, etc) 17:39:35 Right. So I also suspect. 17:39:50 cl isn't really a good language if your top priority is to generate small executables 17:39:56 Quartus - CL can be very useful in production applications -- particular applications important enough to run a long time and have someone able to exploit its excellent debugger when a problem occurs in a live system. 17:40:00 true. 17:40:06 although the commercial implementations may have features to trim down the runtime to what you need 17:40:14 yes, I was talking about SBCL. 17:40:23 sbcl doesn't have a tree shaker, no. 17:40:43 if you want an executable, it will copy the entire core image, which is ~20mb. 17:42:43 re: Erlang's name --> http://www.erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/1999-February/000098.html 17:43:46 an erlang-like message passing library was contributed to factor 17:44:09 zpg - which agrees with what I said. Cute secondary meanings are not primary meanings or reasons for names. 17:44:12 it supports distributed concurrency, pattern matching on messages, but unfortunately it is limited by factor itself; processes running inside the same factor runtime are co-operatively scheduled 17:44:26 no SMP, unless you run multiple instances. 17:45:01 slava - Erlang only got SMP in its latest major version. 17:45:12 i know, but afaik it always had pre-emptive threading. 17:45:34 are there any forths which support SMP? 17:45:48 scheduling, yeah, but cooperative is fine -- and exploitable in tradionally Forth ways. 17:46:43 ayrnieu: well, okay. you did say "it isn't short for". I was just pasting the link as a reference. 17:46:55 zpg - it still isn't short for that :-) 17:46:55 slava, don't know. Rings a bell. Maybe a MPE product. 17:47:44 Quartus_: I take it you're mobile? or away from home? 17:48:29 I am, visiting family. 17:48:50 Ah ok. 17:50:00 heading home in an hour or so. 17:50:11 How far away are you? 17:50:48 A couple of hours point-to-point. 17:51:10 * zpg nods 17:59:59 --- quit: Al2O3 ("Leaving") 18:04:07 Time to call it a night. 18:04:10 Cheers. 18:04:13 'night 18:04:28 ciao! 18:04:43 * zpg bows out 18:04:44 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 18:05:31 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@pool-71-164-175-60.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:41:08 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 18:41:20 hello 18:55:45 --- quit: snowrichard (Remote closed the connection) 19:03:34 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 20:43:49 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:43:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 21:36:47 Quartus: what is colorforth for? 21:37:26 I sense that this is a werty question. 21:38:16 um, colorforth is for luddites? :) 21:38:24 "Yes ... My Bro used to teach Delphi at jr College , they burned his car ." 21:38:56 "You can delete files WITHOUT SEEing them !!!" 21:39:25 "Now for the god news . I love programming . I will show 21:39:25 you methods , so simple and powerful , it will allow 21:39:25 you to be hated by all C/C++ programmers , everywhere . 21:39:25 They may even burn your car !! 21:39:25 " 21:39:33 lol 21:40:02 What I thought was the cherry on top was mike coughlin defending werty. 21:40:27 Werty is like a magnet for all the other jackasses. 21:41:10 gavino argues with werty, but I think he's just fighting the tide; he'll be won over soon. 21:42:41 i odn't see any instances of gavino replying to werty; care to point them out? 21:43:05 i think gavino may have finally found the ultimate programming language, after posting hundreds of one-liners all over usenet 21:43:22 it doesn't exist yet, but it only takes 2 days to implement... 21:44:10 "There is something to be learned from Werty's postings." -- m-coughlin 21:44:19 whoa whoa there! 21:44:32 From the dullest knife in the drawer; higher praise I cannot imagine. :) 21:44:46 AIIIIIIGH! http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex.femdom/browse_frm/thread/33bd5edfdc698387/00ba9ffed34d680c?lnk=st&q=author%3Agavino&rnum=1 21:46:39 you know I can't find a single gavino with werty in the text, but I'd swear he'd written back. 21:46:47 hehehe 21:47:00 That alt.sex.femdom thing is just going to give me nightmares. 21:47:54 :-) 22:04:18 ayrneu: neat -- page 18 of "On Lisp" ... 22:04:29 reading on lisp? 22:04:39 yes 22:04:45 good book if you already know CL 22:04:47 it's addressing ayrn's q from the other night 22:05:12 I don't know cl... but I haven't seen anything inthe book I couldn't understand (yet) 22:05:23 but you're on page 18 :) 22:05:28 er, right. 22:05:30 "yet" 22:10:21 absentia, slid off the Forth learning track again? :) 22:10:47 * absentia nods. 22:11:12 gonna give up on ya soon. 22:11:20 :-<> 23:17:43 --- quit: Al2O3 ("Leaving") 23:21:10 Quartus_: some people just dream :) 23:21:30 evidently 23:29:04 endlessly only reading the first few pages of text after text, thus forestalling the need to ever actually do anything. 23:57:08 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.25