00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.21 00:29:13 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 00:29:17 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-234-113.netcologne.de) joined #forth 00:29:31 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 00:39:50 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 00:41:52 man, I have a hard time typing "turquoise" 00:46:45 It's easy; type green with one hand, blue with the other. Turquoise is for locals. 00:47:14 turquoise blending to vermillion indicates a royal fizbin. 00:47:27 gbreluee 00:47:40 that get's my hands tangled and doesn't come out right 00:47:46 plus I forgot the n 00:47:53 Practice. 00:48:22 bah! Practice is for people who want to be better at something 00:48:50 so true. 00:52:13 so what up, J-Dawg? 01:03:22 dittling around a bit on the Discworld mud before I go to bed 01:03:32 very amusing game 01:03:48 been playing for years, and it still makes me laugh when I explore 01:04:16 I just got an appointmant with Dr. Sigman Fraud 01:04:45 after the interview: 01:04:56 Dr. Sigman Fraud says: Hmm. Well, the problem seems fairly evident. 01:05:07 Dr. Sigman Fraud says: Your weapons aren't big enough. 01:05:21 Dr. Sigman Fraud says: Oh.. wait.. silly me, you're fine. 01:06:16 heh 01:07:35 oh, this line was funy... he told me to tell him my problems, and I said something then: 01:07:44 Dr. Sigman Fraud says: Hmm. Subject seems eager to co-operate and please the perceived authority figure. Interesting. 01:08:34 like Eliza but without the feedback :) 01:09:30 yeah, he didn't try to respond to what I said 01:09:37 it was funny though 01:09:48 he kept giving me peices of paper with inkblotches on them 01:10:07 and doing word associations 02:16:44 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Woobles.") 02:25:44 --- join: llama32 (n=zak@079.a.001.beg.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 02:40:38 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed finally") 02:47:18 why are control structures not postfix? 03:46:59 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-83-229-109.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 04:21:39 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 04:21:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 04:26:25 --- quit: llama32 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:26:39 --- join: llama32 (n=zak@068.a.001.beg.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 05:33:55 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 05:55:18 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 06:02:02 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:02:44 Good morning. 06:12:28 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@84.13.9.215) joined #forth 06:12:42 Good morning, earth|. 06:15:09 Good morning 06:17:19 My poor sweetie is anemic today and I'm trying to get here iron up. :( 06:17:27 here /-e 06:25:31 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 06:38:07 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:51:34 morn' 07:00:48 :) 07:13:33 --- quit: earth| ("\") 07:22:21 --- quit: llama32 ("Leaving") 08:08:23 hey 08:08:30 hej HEJ hej 08:11:23 ray, was reading about a potential cure for diabetes on the horizon. 08:12:19 the one they did with rats in ca? 08:12:25 something to do with blocking false pain messages from the pancreas. 08:12:33 yup. 08:12:36 that's the one. 08:12:48 mice, I thought. It's not in front of me presently. 08:13:11 er, ya, I should know better.. mice, not rats. 08:32:06 --- join: Ray-work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 08:34:20 [11:07] ray, was reading about a potential cure for diabetes on the horizon. 08:46:01 --- quit: Sukoshi (Remote closed the connection) 08:47:29 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:49:44 --- join: Sukoshi (n=user@user-11faadf.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #forth 09:21:00 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 09:34:21 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:37:14 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-120-37.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:42:41 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:53:20 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 09:59:17 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-26-248.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:59:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 10:33:27 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-167-150.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:39:50 Thanks Quartus: keeping eyes open. 10:40:28 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:42:13 Thanks Quartus: keeping eyes open, and fingers crossed. 10:55:12 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 10:58:01 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-54-163.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 11:01:41 type 1 but still i'm excited for those that have it. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/03/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main581588.shtml 11:04:11 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:05:03 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 11:06:20 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:07:11 Canadian Scientists Close In On Diabetes Cure http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7005868964 11:08:16 they think that there are stronger links between type 1 and 2 than previously thought. 11:09:01 By injecting of neuropeptide substance P, the team discovered that they could reverse islet cell inflammation in mice within a day and normalise the associated insulin resistance. These two effects reversed the effects of the disease without causing toxic immunosuppression 11:09:33 The studies were also successfully extended to type II diabetes, where insulin resistance is even more of a problem 11:09:53 ^ quotes from http://www.labtechnologist.com/news/ng.asp?n=72956-sickkids-jackson-laboratory-diabetes-university-of-calgary-university-of-toronto 11:10:23 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-191-081.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:10:30 That news was just yesterday. 11:12:36 Quartus: great news. Nan and I just got a 20,000 dollar Christmas gift from the County. We applied and were approved for a grant to bring our house to spec. We are very excited. 11:22:29 wow! sweet. 11:24:12 It really is. 11:24:59 good deal! 11:25:15 I nearly cried. 11:26:25 Nan and I have done 16000 already... Well 10000, the other 6 went to pay back bills that we owed so that we wouldn't have to worrie while we had the work done. 11:27:20 Nan's father payed 15000 for the house in the 50's. We'll more then double that in fix-ups. 11:27:37 Should max out the value when done. 11:28:08 I'd beable to use the house as collateral or take out equity in an emergency. 11:28:19 * Ray-work starts to breath a little easier. 11:30:26 sounds good. 11:34:37 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@84.13.9.215) joined #forth 12:05:16 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 12:08:12 --- quit: earth| (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:08:38 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54895F27.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:17:00 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:24:34 congrats :) 12:49:10 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 12:49:14 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-234-113.netcologne.de) joined #forth 12:49:29 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 13:23:53 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E065AC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:40:49 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:50:11 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 13:50:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 14:03:44 hi 14:04:45 hey 14:19:02 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 14:40:48 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 14:59:56 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l325b.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 15:10:54 --- quit: Ray-work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:44:57 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:03:47 --- quit: virsys (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:48 --- quit: Shine (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:48 --- quit: nanstm (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:48 --- quit: JasonWoof (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:50 --- quit: absentia (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:53 --- quit: tathi (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:54 --- quit: arke (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:54 --- quit: Crest (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:54 --- quit: segher (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:03:54 --- quit: Sukoshi 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(n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 16:59:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 17:02:25 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 17:27:11 anybody want to try gobby with me? 17:27:38 what 's gobby? 17:27:50 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@82-35-248-212.cable.ubr06.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 17:28:44 a multi-user online editor 17:28:58 online in the sense that those users can be accross the world 17:29:00 is it written in forth? 17:29:06 not in the sense of "in a browser" 17:29:10 I doubt it 17:29:23 i've seen similar programs before 17:29:36 I've heard the idea 17:29:39 never tried one though 17:29:43 the editor actually looks pretty nice 17:29:52 clean look 17:29:56 auto-indent (optional) 17:30:11 can set tab width and/or set it to use spaces instead 17:30:15 there's some jedit plugin that does this and it communicates via irc... and the guy who wrote the plugin made #jedit the default channel 17:30:17 its fucking annoying 17:30:29 oh, god 17:30:33 two random guys join and start spamming editing commands :) 17:30:51 what an idiot 17:30:57 so you have to kick them right? 17:31:19 gobby installed libxmpp I think 17:31:26 so I guess it's using jabber to communicate 17:34:13 slava - how easily can you communicate to them through editing commands when they do that? 17:34:31 i don't know, it might be funny to do that though 17:34:34 and edit their document 17:34:36 its a plain text protocol 17:35:33 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 17:36:03 --- quit: slava () 17:38:05 --- join: jeremy_c (n=jeremy@cpe-71-74-145-210.neo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 17:40:14 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 17:40:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 17:51:28 Being on FreeBSD, what version of forth would you guys recommend to someone learning it? 17:52:59 jeremy_c: gforth is reasonable 17:53:10 jeremy_c: install with support for ffcall 17:53:17 fflib, ffi, whatever the option's called 17:53:35 JasonWoof: hm, I tried that because I've seen it before and FreeBSD said, "The gforth port is currently broken" :-( 17:53:38 gforth doesn't come with docs that teach you forth though. you're best off reading Starting Forth 17:53:57 jeremy_c: it's marked as broken, but actually works fine 17:54:13 JasonWoof: how do I get around the broken status? 17:54:15 jeremy_c: edit /usr/ports/lang/gforth/Makefile and take out the bit about it being broken 17:54:47 then install with the usual "make config && make && make install" 17:55:23 I spoke with the port maintainer and he said he can't figure out why gforth won't build on the freebsd build cluster 17:55:27 it works fine for him and for me 17:55:41 compiling now. 17:55:54 Starting Forth is something you can read online for free 17:55:57 I think 17:55:59 it's fun 17:56:01 I'm on it now. 17:56:25 I think this is Starting Forth... http://home.claranet.nl/users/mhx/sf.html 17:56:51 I also found Thinking Forth, but starting forth seems to get you up and running a bit sooner, while Thinking Forth is pretty detailed, maybe a 2nd book. 17:57:29 JasonWoof: gforth compiled and installed fine. I'll start reading now. 17:57:54 Oh, wait, need to setup emacs real quick. Once your use to syntax hilighting, indenting, etc... it's hard to live w/o 18:00:52 yeah, I like syntax highlighting 18:01:08 forth is hard to hilight though, because you can change the syntax 18:01:12 and often do 18:01:41 Thinking Forth is an advanced theory book 18:02:00 it's not meant to teach you how to get started 18:02:26 I'll steer clear of it for now 18:04:13 What's the normal file extension for forth? 18:05:56 .fs I think 18:06:08 Your choice. .fs is common. 18:08:11 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751791.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 18:14:25 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 18:35:36 --- quit: earth| (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:15:36 Do you find that managing and thinking about the stack makes things easier or more difficult? Seems that it would be easy to create bugs. 19:16:54 after a while, it becomes natural. 19:17:32 ayrnieu: what kind of apps do you create w/forth? 19:21:31 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 19:21:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 19:21:55 hey 19:23:43 I have to leave, sorry. Most recently, I wrote some simple networking applications; later today I intend to write a simple local-image folksonomy manager. You can do many things with Forth, as with any general programming language. 19:23:54 * ayrnieu & 19:27:17 jeremy_c: I've written an editor, assembler, compiler, done webscripting 19:27:44 a crappy synthesizer 19:27:58 JasonWoof: do you feel they came out better because you used forth? or easier? easier to maintain? less time? 19:28:07 tathi is writing a little mouse-game with xlib 19:28:12 All of the above, if you ask me 19:28:39 more often than not, when I sit down to code in forth I'm suprised at how quickly I get it working, and working well. 19:28:58 in most languages I can't believe how long this takes 19:34:07 I'm on Chapter 3 of Starting forth, and at this point, I'm having a hard time applying what small amount of Forth I've actually learning into something like, say, a report from a postgresql server. 19:34:17 I'll keep reading though, obviously. 19:34:50 not knowing how it's done, but even seeing that it's possible. 19:48:54 jeremy_c, you would be well served to learn Forth before plunging in to writing an application in it. 19:49:15 Esp. one that sounds like it will require ffi to an external library right off the bat. 19:49:50 I'm not attempting to, but that's what I do for a living so my mind keeps asking, how does this apply to xyz or abc? ... I'm reading. 19:50:11 I recommend familiarizing yourself with the basics, and then picking an algorithm you know well, or find interesting, and implementing it in Forth. 19:50:17 Share the results, listen to the feedback, and repeat. 19:51:04 Forth is pretty different. 19:51:09 Yes, hence my suggestion. 19:51:44 :) 19:51:50 forth is quite different 19:51:54 one of the reasons we learn so much from it 19:52:10 jeremy_c: I've done mysql through gforth 19:52:46 I'm not going to venture there right now, but do you find even actions like mysql easier in forth? 19:52:56 easier than what? 19:53:00 the interface was inconvenient in forth, so I wrote an intermediate layer that makes it damn handy in forth 19:53:18 after I wrote that I found it easier 19:53:24 Quartus: well, imperitive "normal" languages :-) 19:53:34 I tried to implement that same sort of API for doing databases in PHP and I couldn't 19:53:41 PHP just doesn't work like that 19:53:41 Forth is an imperative language, and it's normal, it just isn't Algol-derived. 19:53:49 well, I guess I could... but it would be ugly as hell 19:53:56 Ok, your right. non-stack based. 19:54:47 I'm not picking on forth when I said "normal", but forth is pretty different to me. I am exercising my mind and keeping my skills sharp (hopefully) by learning forth. 19:55:45 Learning Forth well will make you a better programmer in any language. 19:56:37 Quartus: due to it being stack based or the concept of factoring? 19:56:47 In part. 19:57:11 They're intertwined. 19:57:25 definitely intertwined 19:57:36 the reason you can factor down so small so easily is that it's stack-based 19:57:42 hm, I didn't make that connection. Could you not have factoring w/o stack based? 19:57:57 And the reason you must factor down so small is because it's stack based. So it enforces that 19:58:16 jeremy_c: of course. to factor, means to take a piece of a function, and turn it into it's own function 19:58:21 it's just that in other languages, it's inconvenient 19:58:31 jeremy_c: do you know C? 19:58:41 Maybe I am tainting the concept of stack based a bit, but couldn't the resulting value left on the stack be as simple as a returned value from a C function call? thus, factor the same way? (sort-of) 19:58:56 It's not as easy in other languages, but still achievable. Forth is largely concatenative, so you can break words along many different lines. 19:58:56 that's how it works 19:59:06 here's what I mean: 19:59:17 int pluss(int x, int y) { return x + y; } 19:59:43 that's stupid, and you'd never use it because of all the extra symbols and stuff required to call that, as apposed to using an operator 19:59:55 but in forth, there's no extra overhead 20:00:05 : pluss + ; 20:00:13 oh, and don't worry, one day I'll learn to spell plus 20:00:44 C: printf("%i", pluss(1, 2)); 20:00:53 forth: 1 2 pluss . 20:00:55 How long have you guys been working w/forth? 20:01:12 dunno, 5-8 years maybe? 20:01:26 I've written a couple forth compiler/interpreters 20:01:48 Quartus makes (most of?) his living selling his forth implementation 20:02:20 my forth project is on hold while I build up a handy set of PHP files to do everything 20:02:27 I just wrote a calendar program 20:02:40 and last week something that writes all the code and templates for forms for you 20:02:56 still needs work though... doesn't handle pulldowns for example 20:06:32 I've been at Forth for ... well, since '94 at any rate. Before that in various ways. 20:18:58 :) 20:19:19 that's shortly after I got started with programming on my dad's Apple //e 20:19:55 I'd already been at the programming game for quite a few years at that point. I had played with Forth, but never invested in it until the Standard process started rolling. Followed the BASIS documents. 20:20:22 yeah, you got a head-start on me 20:20:36 I didn't start programming until I was 12 or 13 20:20:39 so 92 or 93 20:20:54 I'm a bit older. :) 20:21:19 :) 20:21:39 The first programming I got paid for was in '82, as I recall. 20:23:49 ahh, back when I still drooled on people 20:23:56 heh 20:24:04 those were the days :) 20:25:32 Back when manual typewriters were still in use. 20:35:34 Quartus: for me, first paid job was '92 20:36:37 So you've been at it for awhile. Much to unlearn. :) 20:37:13 Forth can return more than one item on the stack. I know you can return a struct in C, but it's not quite the same. 20:37:58 I got my first computer @ 12, and the first thing I did was start playing with gwbasic. So I've been programming, wow, for 19 years now. 20:38:41 I remember gwbasic. Line-numbered, clanky. 20:39:22 * jeremy_c going to spend a bit of time with his wife. will be back a bit later. 21:25:20 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGG 21:25:58 ok, apache sets the wrong DOCUMENT_ROOT when you use mod_vhost_alias 21:26:17 it's giving a totally random, bogus value 21:27:41 It's mocking you. 21:31:30 great, they're calling it a feature 21:31:44 apache_mock_jason.c 21:31:57 looks like I have to make my own &@#^$ variable to find out where my *&@#^$@ files are 21:34:22 all this crap, just to try to undo something that was done "for me" 21:38:40 I delve into apache settings only as required. 22:10:22 --- join: zxcv_ (i=geoff@S01060040f4a589b9.vs.shawcable.net) joined #forth 22:16:08 --- quit: zxcv_ ("I love you all!") 23:09:51 --- quit: jeremy_c ("leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.21