00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.20 00:00:06 You know, if it's based on retroforth's model, it is not as fast as Gforth. Speaking strictly of retroforth, it benches out appreciably slower than gforth. 00:00:19 Despite it being a native-code implementation with the core written in asm. 00:00:23 really? strange. 00:00:29 I like gforth. 00:00:35 so far, it's my fav. 00:00:52 Gforth is quite well made, and is optimized for speed. It does very well. Native-code implementations such as SwiftForth also do very well speed-wise. 00:02:26 I guess i need to look around for more libs for gforth... sockets, gui/gl, etc. 00:02:28 Reva may have additional optimization. If it were really 2x the speed of Gforth, it would be very close to the speed of C. 00:02:49 yes. C was coming in as 4.x and reva was 5.x gforth was 8.x 00:03:09 4.x? 00:03:12 fast but non-standard .. but has lots of libs. argh. 00:03:14 seconds. 00:03:26 I'm sure that depends on what you were benching. 00:03:56 true 00:04:00 large do-nothing loops are not particularly informative benchmarks. 00:07:04 no 00:07:36 Gforth also has ffi; it might be instructive for you to port reva's GL demo over. 00:07:43 yes 00:07:45 :-) 00:07:48 so many things to try. 00:09:16 I think, though, for learing Forth, you'd do better to find an algorithm that interests you, and implement it. 00:09:32 Share that, listen to the feedback, and do another one. 00:10:07 that sounds like an ecellent idea 00:10:13 although, I think it's time for me to finally get some sleep 00:10:16 thanks for all the pointers! 00:10:32 As I said to somebody else recently, if you can't find an algorithm that interests you, you're not a programmer; give up. :) 00:10:32 Sure. 00:13:39 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 00:31:48 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:05:11 --- join: ecraven (n=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at) joined #forth 01:08:27 Meh. Algorithms are awesome. 01:10:21 indeed 01:10:23 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 03:50:36 --- join: zpg (n=user@81-178-229-155.dsl.pipex.com) joined #forth 04:06:31 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:19:23 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 04:19:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 04:20:59 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:21:02 Morning all, hey tathi 04:23:42 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 04:27:23 hi zpg 04:53:26 zpg: you're running Mac OS X? 04:53:45 i am indeed. 04:53:55 why do you ask? previous PPC discussions? 04:54:39 I'm curious what s" os-class" environment? drop type returns on gforth there :) 04:55:02 well, actually I'm wondering if there's a good way to distinguish between platforms from inside gforth, but... 04:57:32 s" os-class" environment? drop type unix ok 04:58:22 thought so. hmm. 04:58:24 thanks 04:58:58 hoping for darwin or something similar? 05:01:12 or something 05:01:35 OS X uses .dyld for dynamic libraries, vs. .so on linux/bsd 05:02:53 * zpg nods 05:03:57 gforth is so maddeningly close to being usable as a general-purpose cross-platform forth. 05:04:07 it has ffi, even seems to support callbacks 05:04:26 but it doesn't have fetch/store words for the C types (e.g. short, uint16_t). 05:04:50 and it apparently doesn't have a good way to find out what platform you're on so you can load platform-specific stuff. 05:05:13 you could try this 05:05:14 s" OSTYPE" getenv type darwin ok 05:05:18 but not full-proof of course 05:05:25 *fool 05:06:02 yeah, sounds irritating 05:07:29 oh, right. I forgot it can call out to the system. 05:07:45 I still wish it had short@ and short! or something. 05:08:18 I can fudge it well enough for now though 05:11:23 i don't follow the problem re: uint16_t 05:11:36 are all gforth implementations not 32-bit? 05:17:52 sure, but some libraries use structures that have 16-bit integers 05:18:04 I don't see a good way to access them. 05:18:47 usually chars are a single byte, so you can use c@ twice and combine them 05:19:11 but there's a comment in the source that chars may be two bytes on Windows... 05:29:42 sure 05:36:58 here's an Ertl quote, 05:37:24 "Of course you make the cell size (and thus data stack item size) 64 bits, otherwise it wouldn't be a 64-bit Forth. // How do you get at 16-bit and 32-bit values? I never needed access to 16-bit values, and only once needed 32-bit accesses, but you typically can perform them by using several character accesses, or by doing a 64-bit access and eliminating the unneeded part." ==> 05:37:24 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_thread/thread/ae6b12537254784/34933e1f599f24ab?lnk=gst&q=gforth+16-bit&rnum=45#34933e1f599f24ab 05:38:49 hmm...I didn't think of using a cell access 05:39:09 --- join: arke (i=chris@x504.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 05:39:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 05:39:21 and he's right about your not needing them, except to interface with external libraries. 05:39:29 but I gather he's not a huge fan of that in general :) 05:42:28 Hi. 05:42:33 hi arke 05:46:34 ok, I can handle mouse motion events, I can quit when you press Q or Escape. This is going well. :) 05:46:52 What are you working on? 05:47:17 I'm playing with gforth and Xlib 05:47:39 neat! 05:47:41 * tathi got tired of doing serious programming so he decided to write a simple game :) 05:47:44 does the code look complex? 05:47:50 with fflib calls that is. 05:48:07 nah, mostly just looks like C function prototypes 05:48:24 it's kind of long because X is a nuisance, but it's relatively straightforward 05:49:03 i tinkered with GTK+ a while back, which I don't know through C either, so a two-fold cause for confusion. 05:49:22 HEhe. 05:49:26 It'd be really neat to write a simple set of bindings to GTK or X for gforth. Save programmer time etc. 05:49:34 I've been wanting to do the Pizzaboy-rockdodger-like thing for ages :o 05:49:38 NEver got around to do it. 05:49:50 GTK isn't simple, period. :) 05:49:56 heh 05:50:17 the conundrum of finding a GUI library that works on OSX, Linux, Win32. Or even a simple one for OSX. Or Linux. Or Win32. Ah. 05:50:22 wxWidgets is neat, but OOP. 05:50:34 yeah. 05:50:46 Allegro might not be bad -- duno how much GUI stuff it has 05:51:00 SDL is simple, of course, but it basically just provides a framebuffer and events 05:53:25 I'm liking System.Windows.Forms 05:53:27 * arke hides :) 05:53:52 is that just the Windows API? 05:53:59 or something else? 05:54:11 Its the .NET API for GUI Stuff 05:54:18 ah. :) 05:54:20 Its not perfect but its still nice. 05:54:26 At least with C# >_< 05:54:54 Factor has code for the various platforms, to wrap the native stuff into the words that it needs 05:54:58 I rather like that approach 05:55:14 a good one. 05:55:25 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 05:55:25 that's what wxWigets does, works across the Unices, Windows and OSX 05:55:30 (the latter with Cocoa) 05:55:39 arke: tried Forth.NET :) 05:55:40 ? 05:55:55 wxWidgets would be much greater if it used more modern concepts wrt C++ and OOP :( 05:55:59 zpg: nope, link me? : 05:56:27 http://www.dataman.ro/dforth/ 05:57:29 Oh, I think I'Ve looked at that. 06:11:18 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:11:33 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 06:15:44 Good morning. I love my birthday girl! Happy birthday Nanette! 06:23:50 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 07:16:22 --- join: Shine (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-234-134.netcologne.de) joined #forth 07:29:09 --- join: madwork_ (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 07:29:17 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:29:29 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54896C3F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:31:24 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:46:46 --- quit: arke (Connection timed out) 07:58:02 --- quit: ecraven ("bbl") 07:58:11 --- join: arke (n=chris@pD9E059BF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:58:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 08:27:22 --- nick: madwork_ -> madwork 08:28:07 Hey. 08:29:02 zpg, though tathi isn't here, no reason he couldn't add such words to the kernel itself, and issue them as a patch or suggest their inclusion. 08:33:59 I'm here 08:34:07 oh so you are. :) 08:35:09 I could suggest their inclusion, but given that they haven't made a new release in 3 years... 08:35:28 and requiring people to rebuild gforth just so they can run some stupid little program I want to show them is a little excessive. 08:35:57 They're working on a new build now, I believe. 08:36:24 I haven't dug into the build sufficiently to know -- but perhaps one address unit is already one char wide? 08:36:35 one C char, that is. 08:36:35 They know they need those words, there's a document on Ertl's FTP site outlining what needs to be done 08:39:38 yeah, looks like it is one C char everywhere under 0.6.2 08:39:51 And a cell is an int. 08:40:19 So because it's gcc, you can probably derive some of the other types. 08:40:37 yeah. 08:40:58 it's just annoying 08:41:47 I suppose it comes down to whether or not you expect your code to run on any really unusual architectures. Those probably have other pitfalls, too. 08:42:16 It's also a speed issue 08:42:32 Jason and I have a small game that I'd love to port to gforth 08:42:55 but it does a bunch of particle stuff, and my machine is running with a 16-bit pixel depth 08:42:56 I'm late to the convo... What's annoying please? 08:43:17 there's no way a 16 bit fetch/store in Forth would be fast enough. 08:43:31 Again, it would be easy enough to add them to the kernel, but then it's an issue distributing it. 08:43:49 I'm not trying to complain that the gforth guys don't know what they're doing, I just wish they'd release more often. 08:43:52 But you're targeting only x86 in that case, yes? 08:44:02 no, I'm running on PPC 08:44:09 ok, but only one cpu? 08:44:12 but almost anyone that I'd want to show it to is either on x86 or Mac OS X 08:44:33 no. I want it to run under Linux x86 and ppc, Windows, and Mac OS X (x86 and ppc). 08:44:36 I know what annoying is... It's being late to the conversation and asking "What's annoying?" . :) 08:44:43 Ray_work: sorry :) 08:44:47 hehe. 08:44:50 no prob. 08:44:56 so you could optimize in assembler. Not sure if that takes you all the way there. 08:45:09 I was complaining about the unfinished nature of gforth's interfacing-to-C-libraries stuff. 08:45:18 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 08:45:53 Quartus: yes, I'm not saying I couldn't do it. I'm just saying, I shouldn't have to, the gforth guys have known this is a problem for three years now, and they still haven't made a release which adds the trivial additions. 08:46:03 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:46:14 I suggest talking to them now, as I believe the wheels are turning. 08:46:20 it's also annoying that creating code words is like gambling. 08:46:26 gambling? 08:46:47 tathi, annoying perhaps, but sounds like you'd only need a small set of words to tune it to any given platform. 08:47:27 yeah. I just don't know enough about gforth's internals to do it well. 08:47:43 I believe the calling convention for words is different for gforth and gforth-fast and such, for instance. 08:47:46 but I don't know for sure 08:47:58 I'm not sure myself, but certainly that can be discovered. 08:48:48 I know 08:49:17 personally I don't like it to have to guess on which platform and version of course the stack pointer is in ebx or in edx whatever, it's annoying. ok, perhaps somebody knows what to do against that annoying stuff, except recompiling gforth with -DForceRegisters or something like that. 08:49:20 Sounds like fun. Is this the get-out-of-the-way-of-the-rocks game? 08:49:52 yeah. Well, currently I'm just playing with X Windows. 08:50:01 but I'd love to port rockdodger to forth 08:50:07 so many fun things I could do with it 08:50:16 I guess I should just make a patch and send it to the gforth guys 08:50:24 tathi, in which way? xlib or hardcore directly through a socket? 08:50:48 But the CVS version fails to build on my machine, and I've been putting off figuring out how to fix that. 08:50:55 virl: xlib 08:51:01 hi -- I know I"m coming into this conversation late -- what's annoying? 08:51:07 no reason to do it directly unless you have to. 08:51:18 tathi would like uint_16 and uint_8 fetch and store operators in Gforth 08:51:20 absentia: I'm just whining instead of fixing things :) 08:51:37 hey, I do that all the time. 08:51:43 well, it can be quite interesting to see, that the xprotocol is a bloaty protocol 08:52:06 virl: bah. 08:52:35 am I confused -- why can't you use and get what you want? 08:52:56 absentia: I'd like it to run on multiple OSes/CPUs 08:53:09 I could do it that way, but it would be way easier to just patch gforth. 08:53:18 and let gcc generate the proper code. 08:53:21 Sounds like you'll still have platform-specific library stuff. 08:53:24 well, I started to type that.. but then realized that you could also code. 08:53:35 sure, you could patch forth to add it, and then have the users compile the forth, etc... 08:53:52 anyway, I'll go back into lurk mode 08:54:35 sure. I'd *love* to also see words to find libraries and add the appropriate extension for the various platforms 08:54:43 btw. how should someone who wants to make a forth primitiv wrapper for an assembly command? how do you get the stackpointer positions? which register and how do you use it, that gforth doesn't get destroyed? 08:54:53 as it stands the FFI stuff is a pretty simple wrapper around dlopen 08:55:10 that would be slightly trickier to add, but still shouldn't be too bad 08:56:21 i.e. so you could just say "library libSDL SDL" and have it find libSDL.so on Linux, libSDL.dyld on OS X, and SDL.dll on Windows. 08:56:28 that would be way cool :) 08:56:54 I'd lean more toward just putting the library import (and any other custom) stuff in a separate file. 08:57:38 --- quit: TreyB_ (Remote closed the connection) 08:57:40 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 08:57:48 but in cases where you just want the same library on any platform, it doesn't really need to be custom 08:57:55 Those are rare cases. 08:58:20 it's most of the cases that I want FFI for. 08:58:35 mysql, sdl, etc. 08:59:09 I see what you're saying, but the library stuff isn't code that changes often; putting the lib open in a platform-specific section is easy, simple, and then you're not dependent on compiler-internal rules for ferreting out library names. 08:59:55 I wish there was a tutorial on using sdl from gforth 09:00:01 I don't see how that is better; instead you have the rules for ferreting out library names in every application that needs them. 09:00:22 there have been some postings in c.l.f ... graphics stuff.. but it seems pc specific ... I still want to take a look at them, though. 09:00:26 instead of one copy with the compiler 09:00:31 tathi, I don't follow. I'm not suggesting coding in a ferreting routine, but rather simply specifying the libraries explicitly. 09:00:49 absentia, sdl under forth would be the same as sdl anywhere else; you're calling an external library. 09:01:05 ok 09:01:24 Quartus: ok, but you still have to specify the paths explicitly for all platforms that you want your program to run on 09:01:34 and it breaks if someone installed the library in non-standard places, etc. 09:01:35 tathi, the names, yes -- but the paths? 09:01:52 Under win2k, at any rate, it travels the usual path for dlls. 09:02:25 it finds some libraries on my box, but some it doesn't find. 09:02:29 hmm 09:02:31 I haven't looked into it 09:02:41 it'd do whatever dlopen does, I suppose 09:04:53 yeah. I think dlopen is finding the files in /usr/lib that are just linker scripts telling where to find the real libraries. 09:05:02 You could certainly supply your own libffi.fs. 09:05:28 yeah, I've started one of those 09:05:35 That strikes me as somewhat more complex than hardcoding paths, but tastes do differ. :) 09:08:05 it's just that various distros install things in slightly different places, so hardcoding paths can break. 09:08:15 I suppose it's easy enough for a user to fix, but... 09:08:45 It seems to me like it's internal compiler magic that the user shouldn't ever have to deal with. 09:10:42 You could always run a config.fs installer that looked for the libraries. 09:11:54 OK, that I can agree with. 09:12:05 shouldn't do it at runtime 09:13:20 The poor buggers will have to install SDL, anyway. I did this once. It gave me cramps. :) 09:13:31 Win2k, building that same game. 09:13:48 Had to do quite a bit of web-ferreting to find the right stuff, and then other tools to translate one library format to another. 09:15:59 yeah. Usually under Windows people just put the DLLs in with the game. 09:16:20 I think you'd have to pre-build and ship'em. 09:16:28 right 09:16:42 It was a pretty annoying process, and I'm a developer. :) 09:20:19 Yeah, different library paths are a pain. 09:20:38 Does the UNIX version of gforth just use ld ? 09:22:14 Us folks here should work on some sort of collective project :) 09:23:00 dlopen 09:23:15 In UNIX-based systems? 09:23:24 yes 09:23:48 Ah-hah. 09:24:50 I think it only has problems on my system because gentoo puts some libraries in /lib and the .so files in /usr/lib are actually linker scripts, which dlopen doesn't know about. :( 09:25:02 That bastard gentoo! :) 09:25:15 Meh. Most of my stuff is under /usr/local/lib. 09:26:12 ... But I put it there so..... 09:28:48 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 09:28:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 09:30:19 as long as it's in the linker search path (/etc/ld.so.conf), dlopen should find it, I think. 09:31:32 wah, when I would know how my registers are allocated in gforth.. 09:33:11 --- nick: Ray_work -> twoCentAdvisor 09:33:16 all dependancies in the "game" folder, and the person downloads the one for thier machine, not expected to work on all machines. 09:33:34 --- nick: twoCentAdvisor -> Ray_work 09:33:36 gforth is like black magic 09:33:53 hell, why is it so overblown! 09:34:55 in retroforth I can expect to have the knowledge what is in each register. 09:37:55 in a given build, on x86 only, unless crc changes it. 09:38:56 a register layout service would be cool. I don't expect to have it for different archs, but on one arch. 09:38:58 you can have exactly the same degree of knowledge about a specific gforth build for a specific cpu. 09:39:40 if so, then my code words would run, but they don't. 09:40:53 I suggest abstraction. Define a constant for, say, TOS and SP, as those are likely to be the ones that differ between OSes on the same arch. 09:43:11 -___- 09:43:39 I even don't know how the allocation is on my version. 09:44:03 what do you mean? 09:45:17 when it would be so easy to have only to know which version it is.. but it's not I also have to know if it's compiled with -DFORCE_REG or -DUSE_TOS, hell that's a horrible design! 09:48:08 I'm not following. You want cross-platform portability, but you shake your fist at the very substructure that makes it possible. 09:50:10 whatever... 09:50:59 ok. My fault; I thought you had a problem and were looking for a solution, but you just wanted to rant as usual. 09:52:14 I had a problem. but ok, that's gforths design. 09:53:47 whatever ... 09:54:04 it's disgusting that some people find that ok. 09:55:15 whatever... 09:58:10 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@82-35-248-212.cable.ubr06.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 10:09:35 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 10:26:58 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:27:30 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:27:35 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 10:30:52 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:30:55 --- join: Quartus___ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 10:31:27 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 10:33:10 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54895B4F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:33:18 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 10:33:24 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-134-044.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:34:27 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:38:39 hi 10:44:26 Hello, sir! how ya been? 10:45:20 not bad thanks. have a netbsd install lingering in the other room. time to transfer gforth across... 10:45:36 yourself? 10:47:13 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:47:32 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 10:49:13 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 10:49:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 10:51:25 --- quit: Quartus___ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:51:45 argh. I hate when I forget to test things and then wind up looking for bugs in the wrong places. :( 10:53:55 heh 10:57:55 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-104-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:06:13 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:06:16 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 11:07:51 I hate it when I hit the powerstripReset and have to open 1000 windows all over again. Ok, Ok, would you believe 836 windows. 11:08:26 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-83-229-109.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 11:08:50 gotta get a new powerbar! 11:17:28 Ok, ok, would ya believe i'm channeling Don Addams. 11:17:40 yes Quartus, you are correct sir. 11:18:10 When we are slow I will steal one from someone elses workstation, possibly someone on Christmas vacation. 11:22:39 "powerstripReset"? 11:23:53 Insert space 11:24:04 that i guessed :) 11:24:13 talking UPS or...? 11:24:30 strip. 11:25:49 as in, plug sockets? 11:26:24 bz here, but not UPS, regular 8 socket strip. 11:26:38 ah okay. 11:27:04 --- quit: Crest (Connection timed out) 11:28:06 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-26-248.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:28:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 11:39:27 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 11:40:55 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 11:40:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 11:50:05 zpg. Ya, this stupid powerstrip has a temp/off reset switch on the side of the thing closest to the wall. If I could swap it around the other way I would but the chords are all at limits. Aren't you glad you know that now. :) 11:50:47 wait. it turns out to be a feature! 11:50:59 should the boss come around the corner... 11:56:10 I could get the boss to get me a new computer ( making this one mine :) ) by kicking that switch at the right momment. 11:56:23 yikes moment even 11:59:33 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54895A2E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:09:58 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 12:17:16 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 12:17:26 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 12:19:48 Ray_work: take a cap from a soda bottle put it over the button, then duct-tape it there 12:21:51 i _knew_ I liked you, smart son-a-ma-gun! 12:26:05 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 12:26:10 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-226-73.netcologne.de) joined #forth 12:26:24 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 12:28:08 Wait until you get the bill. 12:31:44 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:32:11 --- join: Ray-work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 12:35:25 Turning the powerstrip on its side to add three 3/4 i-d washers providing the same idea as JasonWoof but maintaining functionality... and having the thing turned on its side is the real solution. Doh! 12:36:52 oh, you crazy mechanics! 12:36:57 I'm used to working in a computer place 12:37:02 we don't have big washers about 12:37:10 we have empty soda bottles 12:37:15 :) 12:37:19 AHAHA 12:39:07 Months of kicking myself offline... 12:39:54 I used to be intelligent. Really, I was. 12:40:08 Then I got married and had kids... 12:41:33 I'm pretty sure I have dain bramage. 12:43:14 Now I need a quickbooks update... brb 12:43:16 --- quit: Ray-work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 12:46:52 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:52:37 power strip on/off protection? 12:52:41 ya, it's funny all the solutions. 13:06:16 --- quit: zpg ("back later") 13:21:48 --- quit: timlarson__ ("Leaving") 13:23:13 --- join: arke_ (n=chris@pD9E0780D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:25:12 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 13:25:14 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 13:25:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 13:36:26 --- nick: skas_wk_away -> skas_wk 13:41:14 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 14:04:45 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:06:08 Quartus: so...CVS has 16 bit fetches and stores. So it's just a matter of waiting until they release a new version. 14:06:18 ah ok. 14:06:22 That's good news. 14:07:34 You could always code them up platform-specific for now with [undefined] and thus be ready for when the kernel has'em. 14:30:29 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:34:07 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 14:58:12 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 15:05:47 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 15:05:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 15:13:36 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:14:38 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-243-216-87.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:18:59 going mobile :) 15:35:20 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-33-165.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:49:07 free-form; you're picking up a new Forth textbook, and you open it up. You're scanning through it hoping to see a section on -- what? 15:52:43 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:56:34 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-38-56.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:00:51 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:01:13 nothing, Ray? :) 16:14:45 Beg pardon? 16:15:17 maybe you were offline... 16:15:24 Quartus: I've been offline here as well, apparently. I don't know why yet. 16:15:26 ya. 16:15:46 I said 'free-form; you pick up a new Forth text, and thumb through it hoping it has a section on -- what?' 16:16:25 I hope it has a section on ... 16:16:52 1) history of the words, because sometimes that makes name-sense in context. 16:17:59 2) something about several of the most popular forths and how and why they are different. 16:18:09 good thought, likely roll that into the discussion of each word 16:18:39 2), Gotcha 16:18:47 3 ) an example of how forth is really used in the real world, maybe a progy that went to space. 16:19:05 good 16:21:29 4 ) something about why the standard is very important, that minimalism has it's place, but that the standard makes more sense to study because you can build a minimal anytime you want if you know the standard. 16:22:06 right. The book will use Standard Forth to teach with. 16:23:44 5 ) advise to search for the forth with your needs before re-creating the wheel. 16:24:00 6 ) thier is no number 6. 16:24:17 I'm sure there will be :) 16:24:27 7 ) community. explain where the helpers live. 16:26:00 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:26:08 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-38-56.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 16:26:51 helpers and other resources. 16:27:40 where are we please ? 16:27:42 ty 16:27:44 I suppose that's all because I swapped core when the wire came out of the wall. 16:28:00 ohoh 16:28:05 :) 16:28:43 8 ) maybe, maybe an explanation of how a native boots... 16:29:09 A non-hosted Forth, you mean? 16:29:15 ya 16:29:24 in what regard? 16:30:02 It was fun for me to learn how the machine gets up and going in a native. I don't know that that is the focus tho. 16:31:01 I guess I see it as the typical boot process, bios->boot device->boot loader->OS (or Forth-as-OS). Are you talking about what happens after that? 16:32:09 Yes, during and just after, get to an interpreter command line, ready for the first instruction. 16:32:37 So, how the abstract machine is established inside the actual machine? 16:32:46 But I suppose that ends up being a very general discusion, confusing between machines. 16:32:52 ya. 16:33:31 could be an interesting page or two; it's fundamentally the same process on all modern desktop CPUs. 16:34:18 okay, I'm sure you know more about it then I. Can't wait to read the book. :) 16:34:49 9 ) Books! Great referances. 16:35:06 I'm working it into my schedule as often as I can. Wolf at the door this month, so the props have kept me busy. 16:35:18 :) 16:35:26 along with QF support, etc. 16:35:43 Much income luck to you sir. Nan and I are doing our part. :) 16:36:04 yes, appreciate the registration! :) 16:36:42 I was excited to do it. I'm glad to know the author. It's a very neat piece of work, Neal. 16:37:09 Thanks. Hopefully it's a useful tool. 16:38:05 The Palm itself has easily worked its way into my life. I take it just about everywhere and it's on when i'm idle. 16:38:31 I finely have a way to handle my tons of e-mail. 16:39:06 Programming for it, finding ways to use forth programs at work, that's my new challenge. 16:39:12 I'm a two-gadget guy these days; Blackberry and Palm. The Blackberry is really just an email + occasional web-browsing tool. 16:39:39 I see. Do you have Palm aps that help you in your life, as well? 16:39:43 oh, and it's my phone. If I had a Treo I suppose it'd be an all-in-one :) 16:39:59 Let's get Treos. :) 16:40:17 sure, I use a raft of apps. Most often these days it's word-processing and Quartus Forth, as you might imagine :) 16:40:32 Sure. 16:41:31 Can you _be_ on the phone and be using an ap on the Treo? do you even know the answer to that q? 16:42:29 * Raystm2 checks out Palm.com 16:43:15 thinking back, I believe you can. I had to do Treo support, but it was awhile ago. 16:44:00 no data transfer during a voice call. 16:44:23 same on the blackberry. 16:45:28 ok thanks. 16:45:55 double-check that before putting down cash. :) 16:45:56 got distracted by "Get Your Boss To Expence Your 680, Here's How". :) 16:46:03 heh 16:46:07 Blackberry is a totally different device than the Palm? No PalmOS or Quartus Forth? 16:46:37 no. Blackberry OS, Java-based. 16:47:17 thought so. thanks. 16:47:49 tathiForth -- for the Blackberry, Comming in 2008. :) 16:47:57 you got a year, get started! :) 16:48:16 heh. It's be a Forth written in Java that couldn't generate stand-alone apps. 16:48:31 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 16:49:15 Don't ya just love Java. I skipped it. Don't know why I did. Maybe cuz i'm not a pro. Skipped XML as well. 16:49:51 I suppose I figured I could pick those up if I needed them for real. 16:50:15 I don't do webstuf yet so... 16:50:46 My boss sure is ready to start an internet business. 16:51:02 I oversaw Java development projects. I can work in it, but it runs entirely contrary to the way I think. 16:51:32 I really should be spending the Christmas weekend putting together a proposal for him to bankroll MY first internet company. He'll think it's OURS, but it will be MINE. 16:51:57 I understand that statement, Quartus. 16:52:13 I like forths for thinking in. 16:52:23 I see it as design language. 16:52:32 I see using it even not on the computer. 16:52:41 like BNF descriptions even. 16:53:21 how so? 16:53:50 Symbol replaces description. 16:54:07 description built of symbols. 16:54:15 I love that. 16:54:48 bnf, and regular expressions in general, are pretty neat. 16:54:55 yes. 16:55:19 It's like law even. 16:55:28 save programming makes real sense. 16:55:50 Someone should do a BNF on the universe as we understand it. 16:56:18 Make it easier to see that we and our intellects are side effects of nature. 16:56:43 heh. So you could feed a universe to the lexical analyzer and determine whether it is valid or not? :) 16:57:03 hahahah good one. 16:57:05 trouble is, the lexical parser would be part of the universe, so ... :) 16:57:14 ya. there is that. 16:58:30 We are fortunate that our personal lexical parsers, though painfully slow, can jump to conclusions of grandure. 16:59:08 :-) 16:59:12 Hofstadter covers that quite well in Godel, Escher, Bach. 16:59:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:59:26 Is that so. Always meant to read that. 16:59:53 hmm, maybe I get me _two_ Christmas gifts this year. 17:00:47 bet GEB is available second-hand quite reasonably. 17:02:21 ( conc... | de... ) ...lusions of grandure... fits in nicely with the whole, "we are the universe becoming aware of itself" theme. 17:02:47 * Raystm2 gets out palm, to look for GEB. 17:05:30 It'll be a "after Christmas" gift. I don't spend much on myself during the holidays, got the rest of the year for that. 17:05:40 I'm happy with my QF. :) 17:05:44 neat toy to play with. 17:06:42 I find it gives me a sense of greater utility with the Palm. 17:06:55 Oh yeah! indeed. 17:07:03 I've had radioshack organizers. 17:07:29 Palm is LOADS better cuz I can program it, thanks to you. 17:08:53 I hated radioshack organizers so much I invented one on paper. 17:09:19 so I've heard :) 17:09:34 That FolEndar that i've been working on. I'm thinking out the forth software to back it up too. 17:09:48 Get it to com with the palm and the puter and what have you. 17:10:14 scan it in, break it up, re-organize it, print it back out. 17:10:31 And a wheelbarrow for the profits! :) 17:11:38 Manualware I think. Give the thing away. Build community of people explaining why there way is right. Sell the manual and the processes I personally use to make the thing unbelievably handy. 17:13:22 Have a newsletter and related products and insentives and partnerships. 17:15:56 Am I afraid of success? I think I am. If I was 100% confident in the idea... and you gotta know that i realize there are enough people in this world how would buy it, just from the sales copy even if it DIDN'T work and it does...It's just a dang good idea, if I do say so myself and I obviously do. Everybody says so. Maybe they are polite. 17:17:36 And Quartus: you should see the looks on the faces as I show how you can continue to open it in a loop, forever, and close it when ever you want. 17:18:17 heh 17:19:43 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 17:20:30 But I was sick for a while and dropped out of the practice. I carry a couple everywhere I go now. Got to get back in the habit and not be a hypocrite. The exercise guru has to use his plastic device or he'll be a snakeoil salesman. 17:21:22 Everybody knows you use QF. Damn handy thing. 17:22:43 leave Folendars with fake famous people's names & schedules on'em on the bus, free publicity when the tabloids print it. :) 17:23:31 ( suprised-sucking-in-air-quickly-sound-effect) suuuuuuuoooooohhh ( ends in oh!) 17:23:48 Man that's bright! 17:24:16 Great way to make them popular. 17:24:32 heh 17:24:37 See, one of the beneFeatures is that you can misplace them. 17:24:59 You don't care cuz most people couldn't make heads or tails of it. 17:25:10 Easily replaced. 17:26:59 I suppose that means I'll need to print them myself to include the webAddress and E-mail. Okay okay, I give away a set to anybody that joins the newsletter, they copy them to make thier first one. Downloadable. :) 17:27:51 Gives me the e-mail and the street address should they decide to go with a handsigned set ( signed somewhere out of the way to be sure ). 17:28:43 A channel is as important as Kiev and Moscow was to the Rus. 17:29:37 You never sell your list to anyone, and promise that, because it's more profitable to you if you sell other peoples stuff to the list. 17:37:23 You need a name, like Amway. :) Folway? You could call your people Folwegians. 17:38:17 organizer searched 27000 times in November. planner 21000 times. calendar 700000 times. 17:39:01 FolEndar is pronounced Folly Ender. I suppose they are Folly Enders. 17:40:47 its the concatenation of FOLding and calENDAR. 17:41:21 Calding would have been not as good a name. 17:41:45 Dingcal also. 17:41:55 the Free On-Line E-mail Newsletter Detailing/Archiving Results. hahahaha 17:42:33 Dinglecal? 17:42:47 Hmm, considerable... 17:42:58 Calending? 17:43:05 Thats the Best! 17:43:20 Calenfolder? Foldercalendingenfloogen? 17:43:38 Google Quote "Did you mean 'calendar'?" 17:45:08 Folendar is an invented word that only seems to appear on the internet in a couple of conversations between some folks in another language other than English. I still havn't found a definition but from the context I have to assume it is a clean word. 17:45:38 And of course in any weblog that i've mentioned it goes with out mentioning... 17:46:55 Neat to own a word. That would be cool if it worked. 17:47:38 You could become a word-owner, and extract dues from your word-tenants. 17:47:52 A wordlord, if you like. 17:48:07 In the begining.. 17:48:26 So the word preceeds light? 17:48:37 I think that's how the story goes. 17:48:43 Water and firmament as well? 17:48:51 Much later. 17:49:02 Getting out palm, making notes. 17:50:38 And now the "Lumberjack Sketch"! 17:58:05 Thanks for the input on the book. 18:01:01 --- quit: earth| (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:01:11 My great presure to serve. :) 18:01:57 Are you really gonna include number six? :) 18:02:41 I couldn't for the life of me remember where that comes from. It's either Doug Addams or ... I don't know 18:02:42 . 18:03:02 Don't know. 18:04:34 I bet ESR has it in Jargon. 18:16:13 Monty Python's Bruce's Sketch. 4/5's down the page. 18:16:44 Ah :) 18:21:58 Yes. Socrates himself is particularly missed... 18:22:32 Man I love the Phylosopher's song. 18:23:20 Idle made Pounds by playing his collage memory aids on prime time. 18:26:14 My favorite ( well besides "Always look on the bright side of life" or "Every sperm is sacred" ) That one about the universe and it's dimentions. Just imagine that your standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour... One of my favorite first lines of a song ever. 18:29:23 Good stuff. 18:29:35 It is. 18:30:54 That song and the movie Mindwalk do more to explain the nature of the universe...Everything else is James Burke 18:31:15 's Connections and Joseph Cambell's myth. 18:31:17 I met Burke on his lecture circuit a few years ago. 18:31:26 Did you? Very cool. 18:31:35 In Silicon Valley. Interesting guy. 18:32:34 Ya. I know you are right about that. Heck, just being exposed to every great idea in a row and putting them in context, that's gotta carry some real understanding of what we are. 18:33:02 He was doing work to trace how ideas cross-pollinated, he had some custom software that let him associate people according to who knew whom and when. 18:33:21 Neat db. 18:33:40 Yes, it had a graphical display that could zoom in on any given individual and show his associations. 18:34:05 Clever. 18:34:21 The difficulty was in separating plausible influences from actual ones. 18:34:33 ya. 18:34:37 Always the historian's challenge. 18:35:15 Man! did history change since we were kids. Or wait, is that a local event from a government that has control. :) 18:35:30 Hopefully it has become clearer. 18:35:32 bbiab 18:35:37 ok. 18:48:55 b 18:48:55 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:49:48 wb 18:52:25 Quartus: have you done a chapter outline, even a preliminary? I suppose that's a first step, no? 18:52:49 Or is that something that develops as the idea melds. 18:52:51 I go back and forth between outlines and text, the text often reveals necessary changes in outline. 18:52:59 okay. 18:55:25 I've often thougth that a great way to write a book would be to let anyone who wanted join a mailing list to get the pieces as they come together and change. Even help with the change. That any chapter you didn't already have would be for sale, but you get the rest for free as it develops untill it's done, then it's for sale wholey. 18:56:00 I don't know, you might generate something book-length with that, but I doubt it'd be coherent. I think books need to come from a single mind, much as programs do. 18:56:32 Or you end up with Windows, okay point taken. 19:13:16 There can be input from many sources (there almost always is), but the project has to be contained in one head. 19:26:20 I've seen some more-or-less successful efforts where the bits & pieces all came from different people, and then they were sort of force-molded into once piece by an editor. I'm not convinced this is the easier route, though. 19:34:17 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:34:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 19:34:23 are there any xml parsers written in forth? 19:35:01 slava, probably. I can't point to one off the top of my head though. 19:35:11 I vaguely recall one being discussed, possibly in c.l.f. 19:40:15 I see a couple of XML BNFs on the web that could be used to write such a beast. 19:51:25 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 20:17:09 hi 20:17:16 hi 20:47:14 Hey guys. 20:51:54 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 22:00:37 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-70-248-239-251.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 22:03:09 Quartus: somebody in #concatenative has discovered werty 22:03:23 now we have two channels idolizing him 22:03:30 heh. He's a wonder of the western world. 22:31:28 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:56:08 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.20