00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.18
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00:29:20 <snowrichard> hello
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03:09:34 <snowrichard> hey shine
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04:09:20 <snowrichard> hi tathi
04:09:42 <tathi> hi snowrichard
04:09:44 <tathi> how goes it?
04:09:59 <snowrichard> oh just downloaded the two forth books
04:10:27 <tathi> Starting Forth and Thinking Forth?
04:10:40 <snowrichard> yes
04:11:00 <snowrichard> I used to have a copy of the starting one
04:11:54 <tathi> ah.
04:11:56 <snowrichard> my att phone is out.  a truck got stuck and cut my cable.
04:12:13 <snowrichard> still have the vonage
04:12:24 <snowrichard> its over wireless
04:12:50 <tathi> Stephen Pelc also has a book online at http://www.mpeforth.com/books.htm
04:12:58 <tathi> haven't read it
04:13:19 <tathi> that sucks about the phone
04:13:32 <snowrichard> bookmarked it tks
04:14:12 <snowrichard> I found a bunch of code samples on a kforth site but they didn't say where to get it
04:16:56 <snowrichard> I've got to turn some of these speakers off I have the machine I'm broadcasting from, this one is listening to the shoutcast server (with a delay) and the tv is on too. :) 
04:17:20 <snowrichard> I'll stick with the Jazz on the rave channel
04:17:51 <snowrichard> got a 5.1 speaker for the tv
04:18:29 <tathi> ah
04:19:07 <snowrichard> I have a front rear out on the new computer, but not enough wire to separate the speakers much
04:21:01 <snowrichard> I've just recently set up the shoutcast server account
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04:21:58 <snowrichard> the streaming works fine, but the web control panel seems slow sometimes to update to the next screen
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04:52:45 <tathi> hmm...I have to say, Stephen Pelc's english is kind of...clunky.
04:56:42 <tathi> And he has that tendency which many Forth folks seem to have of including unnecessary implementation details in his explanations.
04:58:47 <tathi> "When the loop increment is negative, DO...+LOOP will include an iteration with the limit.  This occurs because the loop test is dependent on the CPU overflow flag."
04:58:52 <tathi> I mean, really.
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05:01:17 <tathi> There's no need to mention the CPU overflow flag
05:02:16 <tathi> and even if you do, I'm not sure "is dependent on" is proper grammar, and what's wrong with "depends on", anyway?
05:03:59 <tathi> I also think "will include an iteration with the limit" isn't as clear as it could be, especially since the example which is immediately above this sentence is wrong.
05:04:03 <tathi> </rant>
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06:06:04 <Ray_work> Good Monday to ya!
06:06:32 <tathi> morning Ray!
06:06:55 <Ray_work> how was the weekend?
06:07:36 <tathi> my weekend was good
06:09:32 <Ray_work> that's good. 
06:09:42 <tathi> how was yours?
06:11:27 <Ray_work> Pretty cool. For the first time in the 20 years i've lived here I took the train into Dallas, by myself cuz I'm a big boy now, and tripped around the WestEnd and Deally Plaza where Kennedy was shot.
06:12:02 <tathi> Christmas shopping?
06:12:17 <Ray_work> Next weekend I'm gonna go there then get on one of the Dart Trains to explore all it's stops and make notes into the Palm of places I'd like to visit. 
06:12:46 <Ray_work> I did get Nan's birthday prez, but our Christmas shopping has been mostly done for a while.
06:13:08 <Ray_work> I'm sure I'll pick up a few things this weekend.
06:14:58 <tathi> ah, planning ahead. :)
06:15:56 <Ray_work> How about yourself, Christmas in hand?
06:16:16 <tathi> yeah
06:17:01 <tathi> though we're at loose ends in Massachusetts for most of Christmas Eve Day
06:17:15 <tathi> still trying to decide on some sort of outing
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08:09:32 <Quartus> Hey.
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08:31:33 <Quartus> Tathi, I agree -- superfluous implementation detail is the bane of many Forth tutorials.
08:36:45 <tathi> Quartus: I'm sure your book will be better. :)
08:37:06 <Quartus> Hope so.  I won't be discussing threading anywhere but in an appendix.
08:37:38 <Quartus> I've never seen, for instance, a C book that talked about how a compiler generates an executable, let alone in chapter 1.
08:37:45 <tathi> right
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08:52:42 <snowrichard> hi
09:18:12 <Ray_work> tathi, your going to MA on Christmas eve? Where? Jason's?
09:18:19 <Ray_work> hi Quartus :)
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09:19:20 <Ray_work> hi Quartus :)
09:19:36 <JasonWoof> Ray_work: think I'll see tathi at my dads house on the 23rd
09:19:52 <Ray_work> oh okay, thats neat :)
09:20:15 <Quartus_> hey ray
09:20:28 <JasonWoof> we did xmas at our grandparents' house for may years
09:20:40 <JasonWoof> but they recently sold the house and moved north
09:20:46 <Ray_work> JasonWoof: I was in MA. last August. I didn't see you there?!?!?
09:20:54 <Ray_work> I see.
09:21:05 <JasonWoof> yeah, you came while I was on vacation in Maine
09:21:40 <Ray_work> ( the joke is that MA is so small that everyone knows everyone--but if you say that in MA they say "HEY, were not RI! "
09:21:53 <JasonWoof> heh
09:22:41 <JasonWoof> yeah, looks like we have over 6x more people than RI
09:22:51 <Ray_work> :)
09:23:05 <zpg> gents.
09:23:09 <JasonWoof> boston alone seems to have about half as many people as RI
09:23:19 <Ray_work> zpg the gents is down the hall to the right.
09:23:35 <zpg> i guess you couldn't see me doffing my cap. i'll come in again
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09:23:47 * zpg tips his cap
09:23:48 <zpg> gents
09:25:05 * JasonWoof tips his hat stylishly
09:25:31 <zpg> good stuff.
09:28:45 <Ray_work> hahaha
09:29:33 * Ray_work tips his "Paul McCartney Driving USA" tour cap in zpg's general direction.
09:30:13 <Ray_work> Cool that general direction covers all ya'll. ( all ya'll being the plural to ya'll. )
09:31:44 <zpg> :)
09:33:52 <snowrichard> hello
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09:35:03 <Ray_work> hey snowrichard, how have you been and where's your hat.
09:35:30 <snowrichard> havn't worn a hat since I got out of the Navy
09:35:33 <snowrichard> ---
09:36:29 <snowrichard> downloading a DVDROM for Kubuntu right now
09:37:22 <Ray_work> Dixie cup?
09:39:04 <snowrichard> we had the ball caps with the ships name on them, and the white hat with the black brim.
09:39:30 <Ray_work> Black Brim? EastCoast?
09:39:51 <snowrichard> norfolk.  79-82
09:40:05 <Ray_work> I see. :)
09:40:22 * Ray_work WestPac 81-83
09:41:00 <zpg> Anyone else looking at these Trussell columns btw?
09:41:42 <Ray_work> USS PYRO AE 24. Ammunition/Explosive Oiler and Stores. They say that if the ship took a hit it would take four days for the hole in the world to fill with water.
09:42:04 <Ray_work> zpg, not me, cuz i don't know what that is.
09:42:20 <zpg> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/b93153a9a47803a5 for the latest
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09:45:09 <Ray_work> cool. zpg, I've saved that link for later consumption. Didn't know anybody was doing that.
09:45:14 <snowrichard> 4 hrs 20 mins to go on the DVD iso.  Think I'll turn on the TV
09:45:31 <Ray_work> There's nothing on. That's why I went to work.
09:46:06 <snowrichard> CSI miami 
09:46:40 <Ray_work> Nofuck Vagina. Where the men are men and so are the women.
09:46:52 <snowrichard> coffee not found. Operator halted. 
09:47:00 <Ray_work> :)]
09:47:36 <Ray_work> any adrenalin left?
09:47:42 <snowrichard> lol
09:48:07 <snowrichard> I've been up since yesterday morning.  after I get this kubuntu installed I'll get a nap.
09:48:30 <Ray_work> take two, they're small.
09:50:51 <Ray_work> If you keep burning that candle at both ends your OBA ( oxigen breathing apparatus -- for the non initiated -- and arn't you glad )  will cease to funtion in the NAVY way.
09:51:23 <Ray_work> NAVY, of course, stands for Never Again Volenteer Yourself.
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09:56:57 <Ray_work> Medication time. Medication time. One flew over the Casters nestingCart.
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09:57:42 <Ray_work> wb :)
09:58:00 <snowrichard> accidental click somewhere lol
10:00:03 <Ray_work> :)
10:18:31 <snowrichard> back
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10:22:30 <snowrichard> printed out the Wiki article on Forth
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10:45:33 <snowrichard> nanstm?
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11:12:48 <Ray_work> wb.
11:15:04 <Quartus_> hey.
11:16:04 <Quartus_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NNb1pgQlQo
11:23:22 <Ray_work> HAHAHAHA!!!!
11:24:13 <Ray_work> Must be nice to have nothing better to do. :)
11:25:01 <Quartus_> that's why they call me Wonderboy.
11:25:07 <Ray_work> My education is on hold 'til you finish that book...
11:25:34 <Quartus_> I'm anxious to continue it.
11:25:42 <Ray_work> :)
11:25:53 <Ray_work> I'm anxious to read it. 
11:25:57 <Quartus_> once the toy-making abates.
11:26:17 <Ray_work> I know your attention to detail. Should prove to be quite exciting.
11:26:41 <Quartus_> useful, I hope.
11:28:29 <Ray_work> everything is cool with the reg of QF. Looking forward to re-arranging ChuckBot to fit as a stand alone.
11:28:41 <Quartus_> me too!
11:30:33 <Ray_work> Current ChuckBot programming environment words are ;  TURNOFF TURNLEFT PICKUP PUTDOWN FORWARD.
11:31:38 <Ray_work> Those, plus the "5 sensors" and the 18 boolean tests and you can do anything in the 2d world you can imagine.
11:32:44 <Ray_work> I'll include ChuckBot Chess, and JasonWoof's Binary Adder, as well.
11:32:52 <Ray_work> as example worlds.
11:34:02 <Ray_work> I may leave the decimal adder as an advanced exercise with hints and answers at the back of the book, kinda thing.
11:51:08 <absentia> the sad part is
11:51:09 <absentia> I remember that show
11:51:11 <absentia> :-<
11:51:47 <absentia> I love the 70s fascination with people jumping high.
11:52:22 <Quartus_> in slo-mo
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12:05:30 <Ray_work> With that jang-ang-ang-ang "6 Million Dollar Man" sound effect!
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12:06:24 <Quartus_> I like that trailer, bigfoot leaps apparently 30 feet and lands right beside wonderboy like he just hopped into the air.
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12:07:42 <Ray-work> ascii for the music symbol please?
12:08:01 <Quartus_> o/~
12:08:27 <Ray-work> :)
12:08:33 <Ray-work> 
12:09:43 <Ray-work> o/~ It's begining to look a lot like July 4. Hot everywhere you go... ~\o 
12:12:17 <Ray-work> Vas de weather upen de norte?
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12:16:21 <Quartus_> it's 10C in Toronto today.
12:16:36 <Ray_work> not so bad, I suppose.
12:16:47 <Quartus_> quite warm
12:17:44 <Ray_work> its' 26C+ here.
12:18:10 <Ray_work> and the showroom is hotter then that, why with all the picture windows and all.
12:18:17 <Quartus_> is that unseasonable there? 
12:18:53 <Ray_work> about 7c too hight I think. 
12:19:54 <Quartus_> here too, at least.
12:20:00 <Ray_work> ya.
12:20:23 <Quartus_> makes up for the colder years.
12:21:11 <Quartus_> did you make and hotsync your Hello World using Quartus Forth, Ray?
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12:22:04 <Ray_work> Quartus: yes
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12:22:37 <Quartus_> keen.
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12:43:46 <Ray_work> yes very keen. Neat to see that icon that you know you compiled with your own little stylus.
12:43:58 <Ray_work> Must learn how to do the resource files next.
12:52:31 <Quartus_> it's pretty straightforward. Make a form, make ui objects (like, say, buttons) and those objects generate events when they're used, which you get at with EKEY.
12:59:02 <Quartus_> For example, when a button on an active form is pushed, it generates a button-down event, and you can query the event to see just what button was pushed, and take appropriate action.
13:02:12 <Quartus_> likewise with menu items, fields, etc.
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13:09:16 <snowrichard> greetings 
13:17:22 <slava> Quartus: gavino's latest post: 2nd? 
13:17:26 <slava> Quartus: yes, that's the entire post
13:18:56 <Quartus_> I know, the twerp puts the whole post in the subject.
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13:39:43 <snowrichard> hello
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14:10:42 <Ray-work> Hi snowrichard :)
14:10:45 <Ray-work> hi tathi: 
14:11:02 <snowrichard> the task bar blinked
14:11:10 <Ray-work> Quartus/slava post = c.l.f.? is this another werty-a-like?
14:11:40 <Ray-work> hey snowrichard. you gave me your gmail earlier, is there something you'd like me to mail?
14:12:02 <snowrichard> just thought we might chat about war stories ;) 
14:12:22 <Ray-work> Good thinking. Got a few. How about you?
14:12:44 <snowrichard> fixed a computer one time when they couldn't get a part (tape drive)
14:12:54 <snowrichard> wrote a boot loader
14:13:02 <Ray-work> Quartus: I like that delivery system for QuartusForth registration. Does it take any real action from you or is the processes totally automated?
14:13:22 <Ray-work> For USN?
14:13:27 <snowrichard> yep
14:13:38 <Ray-work> Neat! you were what rating?
14:13:42 <Ray-work> Radio?
14:13:43 <snowrichard> DP
14:13:45 <Ray-work> OH
14:13:55 <Ray-work> double penetration, okay.
14:14:04 <snowrichard> data processing :) 
14:14:08 <Ray-work> ya. hehe
14:14:37 <Ray-work> that's what they used to call programmers, right? cuz the programmer couldn't actually enter his code, the wizard had to do that.
14:14:43 <snowrichard> was going to be a crypto tech but couldn't get the clearance
14:14:47 <Quartus_> gavino, the dickweed from yesterday
14:15:10 * Ray-work doesn't c.l.f. unfortunately.
14:15:25 <Ray-work> hard for me to wade thru it all to find what I need to learn.
14:16:19 <snowrichard> the rating symbol was a gear with a feather on it
14:16:26 <Ray-work> hahahaha
14:16:33 <snowrichard> like a mechanized yeoman
14:16:41 <Ray-work> ya that's a quill I believe.
14:17:05 <Ray-work> writing-mechanic
14:17:42 <snowrichard> I got real fast at zipping through the numeric menus
14:18:04 <snowrichard> now I hardly ever use the ten-key pad
14:19:05 <snowrichard> the Data systems techs watched me running the program and said "slow down, it can't keep up".  But it could of course.
14:19:35 <Ray-work> I was a signalman for awhile. Then I went ua and lost my Signal School and ended up a 4 rating Underway Replenishment Specialist, BoatswainsMate, ElectriciansMate, MachinistMate, and eventually Signalman again.
14:19:36 <Ray-work> hehehe
14:20:05 <snowrichard> you pump JP5?
14:20:15 <snowrichard> we used tons of the stuff 
14:20:19 <Ray-work> I could fix anything or communicate with anyone in the Navy. 
14:20:25 <Ray-work> yes indeed!
14:20:39 <Ray-work> we used to use it to get the paint off.
14:20:49 <Ray-work> throw your cigies right in it.
14:22:16 <Ray-work> I can still walk up and down a ship and tell you the capacities of all of the rings, bits, pelicanhooks, transferblocks. I studied the entire time I was in.
14:22:48 <Ray-work> 'cept when I was ua. :)
14:22:51 <Ray-work> which was often.
14:22:56 <Ray-work> I should have been shot.
14:23:01 <snowrichard> going down for reinstall in a bit. switching to kubuntu
14:23:06 <Ray-work> cool. :)
14:23:54 <Ray-work> Supply ships are where they send the F-ups. I was 17 when I got to my first ship, and these guys were my mentors. Shame that.
14:24:24 <snowrichard> first ship -- I was only on one
14:24:33 <Ray-work> Which?
14:24:36 <Ray-work> Med?
14:24:40 <snowrichard> CVN 69
14:24:47 <Ray-work> ooh wait wait.
14:24:57 <Ray-work> 69 that's still WWII yes?
14:25:06 <Ray-work> or possibley Korea?
14:25:10 <snowrichard> no second Nimitz class nuclear
14:25:16 <Ray-work> oh okay
14:25:18 <snowrichard> Eisenhower
14:25:21 <Ray-work> Ike?
14:25:26 <snowrichard> yep
14:25:26 <Ray-work> ya hehe :)
14:25:43 <Ray-work> I understand that was a great ship.
14:25:48 <Ray-work> ever get lost?
14:26:02 <snowrichard> so we always had electricity, plently of hot water, so on
14:26:07 <Ray-work> hehe. 
14:26:21 <Ray-work> man, must have been nice. Food at all hours.
14:26:45 <Ray-work> so long as you don't sleep under the Cats you should be okay, no?
14:27:07 <snowrichard> I had to eat the midrats for breakfast. woke up at taps.  our birthing was under the arresting gear two decks down
14:27:16 <Ray-work> hahahahahaha
14:27:27 <Ray-work> man.
14:27:44 <Ray-work> could you hear the counterweights up and down the shafts?
14:27:59 <snowrichard> my shop was on 03, directly under the flight deck.
14:28:09 <Ray-work> man.
14:28:27 <snowrichard> when the cats went off our turntable skipped :) 
14:28:33 <Ray-work> ahahahahaha
14:28:33 <Ray-work> lol
14:28:42 <snowrichard> so we mostly used tape
14:28:47 <snowrichard> for the tunes.
14:28:50 <Ray-work> hehe ya.
14:29:56 <snowrichard> it just figures they'd put some one night - blind because of being color blind on the night shift. 
14:30:43 <snowrichard> we had to switch to blue lights in the computer room so I could see when I stepped out into the red.
14:31:00 <Ray-work> oh your colorblind. heck people always telling me that colorforth sucks cuz the colorblind can't use it in colorMode and I alway counter with "Show me a ..." and it's you. :)
14:31:29 <snowrichard> iso done.  gonna burn it.
14:31:40 <Ray-work> get'em  good luck.
14:33:32 <Ray-work> I haven't seen the term "midrats" used in maybe 22 years.
14:34:00 <Ray-work> we only got midrats when we were unreping.
14:34:41 <Ray-work> unrep with a carrier and you could be working for 36hours straight, should they need to swap the entire load, and we've done that before.
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14:45:11 <snowrichard> I'm burning the x86 one first its almost done
14:45:20 <snowrichard> need it for my nephew
14:47:34 <snowrichard> burning the amd64 one now
14:50:46 <snowrichard> getting underway with duty section translated to 36 hours up too. 
14:51:22 <snowrichard> shifting from daytime to night hours
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15:02:51 <Quartus> Hi Ray. It's somewhat automated. :)
15:08:02 <Ray-work> Automated somewhat, Aye!
15:09:33 <Ray-work> going home. please fend off all questions that I will get while out, okay! :)
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15:25:30 <absentia> hahaha
15:25:34 <absentia> werty responding to gavino
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15:53:35 <cfTroll> You forth is no forth. My colorForth is bestest forth and saves world!
15:53:41 --- nick: cfTroll -> Raystm2
15:53:58 <Quartus> When you put it like that, I'm completely convinced you are the WORLD'S GREATEST SYSTEMS PROGRAMMER.
15:54:06 <Raystm2> hahaha
15:54:18 <Raystm2> that guy should be punted.
15:54:31 <Quartus> There is no punt on UseNet, in practical terms.
15:54:41 <Quartus> There is a punt here, though.  As far as I know he's never shown up.
15:54:55 <Quartus> I have the anti-gavionmeter running full-tilt, though.
15:55:05 <Raystm2> oh okay ya'll are talking about someone spacific.
15:55:12 <Quartus> anti-gavinometer.  Anti-gavinometric shield.
15:57:37 <Raystm2> how many wertys in a gavinometric scale, or is it the other way?
15:57:55 <Quartus> They're different breeds of dumbass, so it's hard to compare.
15:58:01 <Raystm2> ah.
15:58:02 <Raystm2> okay.
15:58:48 <Quartus> werty is bugfuck insane, and types incoherent rants about how everybody is stupid and he has the answer and he's the greatest thing ever, etc.
15:59:06 <Raystm2> Maybe someone should compile the best posts into a book with descriptions of why these boneheads don't get it and the like.
15:59:15 <Quartus> gavino is a pathetic wanker in his early 30's who gets off on pretending he's a dimwitted pre-teen who can't use his kompyooter properly.
15:59:27 <Raystm2> hmm, thought _I_ was... but okay.
15:59:42 <Quartus> Raystm2, I wouldn't give them the publicity. They're attention-seeking losers.
15:59:48 <Raystm2> I see.
16:00:57 <Quartus> werty may actually have a mental illness.  Gavino is just a pathetic, marginal personality who needs a very swift kick in the ass.
16:02:47 <Quartus> gavino's in your camp, though, now Ray -- "can somone learn programming on color forth? or should this be my 2nd lang"
16:03:03 <Quartus> That's what he crammed into the subject line of his latest post.  The body was only "2nd?"
16:08:38 <Raystm2> hmm. 
16:08:41 <Raystm2> interesting. 
16:08:50 <Raystm2> does anybody ever answer him?
16:08:56 <Quartus> Unfortunately.
16:09:57 <Raystm2> colorforth should not be anybodies second anything. It's a novelty toy and is only mildly interesting if you wish to modulate the ideas in it to something that works for more people. 
16:10:14 <Quartus> This little dweezel isn't going to learn a first, let alone a second, programming language.
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16:12:12 <Raystm2> ya. now the colorForth language itself, minus the system and the compiler blocks 24-30, is so very simple, two looping structures, one real branching if, tho you can use other techniques to branch, I suppose, jumps and insource arrays and variables, maybe...
16:12:34 <snowrichard> hey
16:12:47 <Raystm2> easy to learn and use, sure. But not production code.
16:12:47 <snowrichard> I'm on Kubuntu X86_64 now ...
16:12:58 <Raystm2> hey nice going Richard! :)
16:13:35 <snowrichard> best deal is the sound works on both cards
16:13:44 <Raystm2> very cool.
16:15:12 <Raystm2> there, i got my need to answer a colorforth question out of the way with out feeding the fire that is werty.
16:16:23 <Raystm2> is there a lot of code out there for 64bit systems?
16:17:01 <Raystm2> I imagine it runs 32 bit code but does it fetch 2Dwords at a time?
16:17:23 * Raystm2 should just go look it all up.
16:18:52 <snowrichard> a C long is 8 bytes, ints are still 4
16:19:10 <snowrichard> but pointers are 8 so that breaks some old code
16:20:46 <Raystm2> I see.
16:23:01 <Raystm2> quiop <--- anti werty
16:33:14 <Raystm2> How long before we have 512bit machines. I mean, isn't there a mechanical limit here, or is there a major benefit to width?
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16:40:22 <Quartus> Raystm2, you want a wide-enough bus to address all of the memory.  32bits = 4gig.  So if you've got a 64-bit address bus, it makes sense to have a 64-bit data bus too.
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17:04:38 <JasonWoof> Quartus: I don't see the connection.
17:04:51 <JasonWoof> I know 64-bit addressing allows you to address more than 4GiB
17:05:00 <JasonWoof> but what does that have to do with the width of the data bus?
17:05:49 <JasonWoof> to me data bus width would either be:
17:05:53 <JasonWoof> 1) as big as possible
17:05:54 <JasonWoof> or
17:05:56 <Quartus> Nothing directly, but indirectly it means you can put an address in a data register, or move an address with one instruction, etc.
17:06:01 <JasonWoof> 2) the width of your biggest resgister
17:06:05 <JasonWoof> or finally
17:06:13 <JasonWoof> 3) the width of your "normal" registers
17:06:39 <JasonWoof> ahh, that makes sense
17:07:24 <JasonWoof> I don't know enough about how memory caches work to really know what's best here
17:07:42 <Quartus> And pragmatically you can probably re-use some of the chip circuits for operations on both address and data registers.
17:08:21 <JasonWoof> does x86 have seperate "address" and "integer" registers?!
17:09:57 <Quartus> There are segment registers, pointer registers, and general purpose registers.
17:10:19 <Quartus> Quite a hodge-podge.
17:11:01 <JasonWoof> oh
17:11:05 <JasonWoof> I'm so used to PPC
17:11:09 <JasonWoof> which makes some sense
17:11:28 <JasonWoof> I just assume that addresses fit into registers
17:11:45 <JasonWoof> and that you can therefor store them into memory in one go
17:12:16 <JasonWoof> bbiab
17:12:19 <Quartus> j
17:12:21 <Quartus> oops
17:12:22 <Quartus> k
17:18:57 <virl> but those registers have the same length
17:20:10 <Quartus> Yes.
17:24:36 <virl> I don't know, offers ppc the ability to use every register as an addressing register? the only thing I can recall about it, is it's 'interesting' destination register feature.
17:27:29 <JasonWoof> ppc has 32 general purpose registers
17:27:34 <JasonWoof> they are used for integers and addresses
17:28:24 <JasonWoof> it's interesting to you that you can specify what register you'd like the result of an operation to go into?
17:30:05 <virl> it's something new to me, x86 or the other chips I played yet, don't have it.
17:30:17 <JasonWoof> weird
17:30:30 <JasonWoof> so you always have to kill the value of an operand in order to do any math?
17:31:22 <virl> yes
17:31:31 <JasonWoof> huh
17:31:49 <JasonWoof> maybe that's OK if you only have a couple of registers to work with
17:34:02 <Shine> snowrichard: I've installed a 64 bit version on my Playstation 3 and written a tutorial about: http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:linux:installing_gentoo , Gnome works already
17:34:18 <Shine> the nice thing about Gentoo is, that it is part of the system to compile the packages you want with the compiler settings you want
17:34:50 <JasonWoof> gentoo works on ps3 already!?!
17:35:23 <Shine> yes, with the help of some people of #gentoo-ppc64 we have the spu toolchain compiled, too :-)
17:35:26 <JasonWoof> it's hardly possible to even get one
17:36:17 <JasonWoof> time for food
17:36:18 <JasonWoof> bbl
17:36:28 <virl> ps3? where?
17:37:29 <Shine> maybe would be interesting to use Forth for it. The cell CPU has on PPC64 and 7 so called SPUs, which works all with 3.2 GHz and has very fast main memory access and local storage
17:38:10 <Shine> virl: ebay :-)
17:38:46 <Shine> it's twice as expensive as the official price, but it's worth every cent :-)
17:39:13 <virl> probably robbery good ;-)
17:41:44 <Shine> I don't know, at least it was shipped with a wal mart receipt
17:43:52 <Shine> which Forth implementation is likely to compile on a PPC64 system?
17:44:53 <virl> it would be cool when there would the possibility to access it's 3d capabilities.
17:45:47 <virl> hmm.. but when it's true that the cell chip is so powerful that it's comperable with a gpu, then that doesn't hurt much.
17:46:36 <Shine> I think OpenGL would be no problem, some people even implemented realtime ray-tracing with the SPUs:  http://www.rapidmind.net/samples.php
17:47:18 <virl> you would need a forth which manages it effieciently to use the SPUs
17:48:16 <virl> ok, so only a fast framebuffer is needed.
17:49:15 <Shine> I think 600 fps fullscreen blitting is fast enough: http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=7209
17:49:22 <virl> I only saw this 3d fly of gps data which were done on the spus
17:50:31 <Shine> using the SPUs from Forth: the easiest solution would be to explicit starting programs on each SPUs, like if you are using multithreading
17:50:59 <Shine> they have some fast interprocess communication channels
17:51:55 <Shine> I mean: SPU-to-SPU channels
17:52:40 <virl> yeah, streams when you want.
17:54:02 <virl> 128k ram iirc has each spu
17:54:49 <Shine> 256kb
17:55:02 <jackokring> just enough for a 16 bit 64k cell forth
17:55:31 <virl> 16bit, bah..
17:55:44 <Shine> http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:hardware
17:55:53 <jackokring> :)
17:56:29 <virl> I forget everytime that this cpu, is damn fast.
17:56:57 <ayrnieu> virl - aye, it's hard to take a machine seriously when it has so little RAM.
17:57:33 <Raystm2> Everyone should have one!
17:58:05 <virl> little RAM?
17:58:26 <ayrnieu> when someone puts Erlang or a Forth on it, I'll get one as a computer purchase, maybe.
17:58:27 <virl> the cell little RAM?
17:58:37 <Raystm2> Sorry, no. Fast machine.
17:59:09 <Raystm2> and since everyone should have one, I'm starting a list with me on top for the first one, so... somebody give. :)
17:59:30 <jackokring> 10p or 400$
17:59:54 <Raystm2> Ya, they are cheep anymore.
18:00:11 <jackokring> how much $200
18:00:14 <jackokring> ?
18:01:14 <jackokring> $100
18:01:16 <jackokring> ?
18:01:47 <jackokring> can people share as 2 vid out?
18:02:42 <Raystm2> walmart has a cheep hp for $444  
18:03:00 <Raystm2> before the monitor.
18:03:29 <jackokring> and after keys an hd how much
18:03:46 <Raystm2> I got this compaq hp for $5something with monitor and scanner and printer at 2.8 gig.
18:03:51 <jackokring> out of my budget long live ps1
18:03:56 <Raystm2> :)
18:05:41 <jackokring> $444 to run a snes emulator i don't see the point
18:06:03 <Raystm2> I bought the hp because it was, at the time, the fastest machine that looked like it could boot colorForth. colorForth didn't display properly mind you, don't know why I thought I could get it to work, but at the store, while colorForth was running, I could tell it was running properly and just needed tweeking in the display.
18:07:29 <Raystm2> So, i'm now admitting that I bought a machine because it could run a toy forth.
18:08:17 <Raystm2> It feels freeing to get this out in the open. I see closet doors.. shutting behind me. :)
18:08:31 <jackokring> na i recon it could be a good system, with okad, but i have 300$ pc
18:10:23 <Raystm2> You know, I think he just aims the ICONS pointer to another set of bitmaps and builds his chip parts with a set of drawing maps and then has a routine to make all of those look real in the vid card.
18:10:38 <jackokring> now i have to get IDE specs for to wire up max II dev kit board to a hd maybe
18:11:09 <Shine> hmm, PFE doesn't compile on the PS3, lots of "invalid lvalue in increment" errors
18:11:44 <Raystm2> really? good to know. save a life.
18:11:53 <Raystm2> not that i have a ps3...
18:12:09 <Raystm2> we have a ps2, says my wife.
18:12:42 <jackokring> linux forth on ps2 is it possible to adapt?
18:13:10 <Raystm2> Roger Levy is doing a custom forth on GameCube. my two cents in.
18:13:41 <jackokring> ps/2 keyboard?
18:13:57 <Shine> some time ago Sony sold a LinuxKit for the PS2, but they discontinued the product
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18:14:17 <jackokring> i would have considered it
18:15:46 <jackokring> needed composite in if you ask me and wifi and 100baset
18:16:13 <jackokring> wifi external ariel socket too
18:16:31 <Shine> the LinuxKit was shipped with a ethernet network module
18:16:53 <jackokring> wifi or just cat5?
18:17:05 <Shine> just cat5
18:17:30 <jackokring> poo, thats why i thought good but no sale
18:18:06 <jackokring> i need 54g
18:18:52 <jackokring> i remember now
18:19:08 <Shine> the PS3 has wifi, gigabit ethernet and bluetooth :-)
18:19:39 <jackokring> don't need gigabit, don't need oldbluetooth
18:20:02 <Shine> gforth compiled and works on my PS3!
18:20:16 <ayrnieu> aye, definitely not interested in bluetooth.
18:20:17 <Shine> some benachmarks you would like to see?
18:20:27 <Raystm2> thats cool Shine.
18:20:33 <jackokring> no composite in then, so i could not see it fitting my needs, even if svga output
18:21:01 <Shine> no problems at all, just configure ; make ; make install
18:23:19 <Shine> I've tried this with CLISP and SBCL, too, but no luck
18:24:51 <jackokring> bet they use pointer casting to longs
18:27:11 <Shine> this should be no problem: "printf("long: %i, int: %i\n", sizeof(long), sizeof(int));" says "long: 8, int: 4", but if they are using cast to int for pointer, this could be a problem
18:27:29 <virl> pointer casting to long, why should that be a problem?
18:27:52 <ayrnieu> shine - try it with ECL
18:28:44 <JasonWoof> the short/long thing never made sense to me
18:29:44 <jackokring> what were long long then, i remember in the sources at one point
18:32:20 <Shine> jackokring: with my installed 64 bit GCC 4.1.1, sizeof(long long) is 8, too
18:32:40 <jackokring> 16 short/32 int/64 long??
18:33:11 <ayrnieu> nevermind that, just use types that make the bitcount explicit.
18:33:19 <virl> long is normally 32
18:33:24 <virl> long long is 64
18:33:29 <ayrnieu> virl - there is no 'normal'
18:33:40 <virl> ok, ok, you are right.
18:33:50 <ayrnieu> ANSI C absolutely does not make such assertions.
18:33:54 <virl> but it's normally for me.
18:34:04 <ayrnieu> nevermind that, just use types that make the bitcount explicit.
18:34:09 <Shine> yes, short is 16 bit on this platform
18:34:23 <jackokring> short =16 is very common
18:34:46 <jackokring> except for embedded 8 bitters
18:36:01 <virl> night folks
18:36:18 <jackokring> java makes a good int/long/short standard, but C is so?
18:36:36 <ayrnieu> sorry, I don't follow that question.
18:37:02 <jackokring> whats the word, ... multistandard
18:37:13 <ayrnieu> it isn't.
18:37:22 <Shine> C is optimized for speed, so it is allowed to vary for the most efficient size
18:37:35 <jackokring> .... undefinate
18:37:48 <ayrnieu> C defines these types, their relationship to each other, and their minimum sizes.
18:38:37 <jackokring> breaking possible pointer casts maybe
18:41:16 <jackokring> C minimally defines the types
18:41:45 <Shine> that's the fault of the programmer, not if C. You could always use void* and if you really need to convert it to integers, a global definition file where you define the right int type for pointers (but IIRC sizeof(long)==sizeof(void*) always)
18:42:54 <jackokring> change int to long and recompile
18:43:23 <virl> hmm.. int == length of accumulator?
18:43:36 <ayrnieu> C99 defines an integral type defined to hold a pointer, anyway.
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18:47:27 <Shine> gforth says 8 for "cell ." :-)
18:47:52 <jackokring> ==long==64bit code
18:49:31 <Shine> ECL needs still some time to finish compilation, but looks good so far
18:50:05 <ayrnieu> excellent!  I sometimes have to disable threading on it, but it definiely ports more easily to more platforms than any other CL.
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20:47:53 <Quartus> Hey. Taking a break. Anybody conscious?
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20:49:46 <ayrnieu> yes.
20:49:53 <Quartus> What's up?
20:50:46 <ayrnieu> about to head to the gym, mainly.  I'm stressed out, listening to music and browsing the web and managing to not do anything very productive.
20:51:30 <Quartus> Sounds like a plan.
20:52:40 <ayrnieu> the gym part, yeah.
20:53:49 <Shine> ayrnieu: ECL works! It's nice to have a Lisp with most-positive-fixnum = 2305843009213693951
20:55:17 <ayrnieu> good, it's a nice lisp system.
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21:58:00 <JasonWoof> php syntax is aweful compared to ruby
21:58:04 <JasonWoof> PHP: $this->template->set('day_number', $d);
21:58:19 <JasonWoof> Ruby: @template.set('day_number', d)
21:58:25 <earth|> yep 
21:58:42 <JasonWoof> php has all this extra crap: this>>$;
21:59:33 <JasonWoof> and that's not the least bit contrived of an example
21:59:46 <JasonWoof> imagine it with a global...
21:59:54 <JasonWoof> PHP: $this->template->set('day_number', $GLOBALS['d']);
21:59:58 <JasonWoof> Ruby: @template.set('day_number', $d)
22:03:30 <ayrnieu> PHP is a terrible, unemulateable language for very many reasons, but $self->foo->set($a,$b) versus @foo.set a, b  isn't a very interesting one.
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