00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.16 00:01:39 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:01:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 00:01:41 Speed ?!! Price ?!! 00:01:41 FOOL ! The law prohibits a PDA from having a HDD . 00:01:41 Some exporters have more power than others . 00:02:05 I am fascinated by this PDA law. 00:03:03 i'm more interested in "Future Forths wont use keyboards , create S/W far faster w/o commad line ! " 00:03:21 Morse code. 00:03:47 Today he was ranting about some toy game computer. 00:04:37 No keyboard, of course, so you can create S/W far faster w/o commad line ! 03:10:47 how idiotic, like doing something faster with gui. well, most times you are faster with cli. ok, ok. doing graphics with it takes long.. 03:57:36 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 03:57:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 04:31:50 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-164-245.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 06:14:57 --- quit: Crest ("Leaving") 07:01:08 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 07:18:06 --- quit: tathi ("bbl") 07:29:03 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection) 07:29:48 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 07:31:04 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection) 07:31:17 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514fca8b.l3.c4.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 07:31:41 --- join: ayrnieu (n=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 07:32:29 Afternoon. 08:04:09 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-26-248.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:04:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:04:54 hi Jason,. 08:08:41 hi :) 08:14:35 Good morning guys. 08:15:26 I'm taking a day trip to Dallas today, by rail. Any body need anything? 08:15:53 We're running out of milk Ray. Semi would be great. 08:16:03 Semi it is! 08:16:07 Many thanks. 08:16:26 I'll wire you some money with the house address attached later today. 08:16:42 Quartus: I'm heading to the bank as well, when I get back from Dallas, and as soon as you are available, I'd like to transact. 08:17:09 Raystm2: Ah, joining the QF licensee club I see? 08:17:15 Si! 08:17:21 Good stuff. 08:17:21 jes 08:17:36 Took a while to save up. Lots going on this month. 08:17:44 * zpg nods 08:18:18 I'm going to Dallas for the exercise and to shop for Nan's birthday. 08:18:21 Should be fun. 08:19:02 btw -- is "Nan" short for anything? 08:19:21 Nanette. 08:19:34 Actually yes. She's short for a woman. 08:20:56 Heh :) 08:21:15 Ok, Talking the palm too. All y'all have a great day! 08:21:40 "Nan" is a colloquial for "grandmother" in the UK (well, England & Wales at least) 08:21:58 SHHH! Not so loud. 08:22:01 :) 08:22:10 We aint quite there yet. 08:22:19 :) 08:22:23 Nan Over shoulder. 08:23:52 "I refuse to be called Nana! " 08:24:15 Granma, Mimi, Grandmother, okay. 08:24:39 In my family, traditionally she'd be Meme. 08:24:54 Your family is big on Richard Dawkins? 08:27:40 zoom I think I saw that just skim off the top of my skull. Ref not acknowledged ERROR ERROR throw fit, arms flailing, stomping all around, Danger Will Robinson Danger. 08:29:38 Ref search backup system back online... looking... 08:31:12 "The term "meme" (IPA: /miːm/, not /mɛm/ or /mimi/, to rhyme with "theme"), coined in 1976 by the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, refers to a unit of cultural information transferable from one mind to another. Dawkins said, Examples of memes are tunes, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches." 08:31:36 cf. Wikipedia 08:32:58 Oh well, in that case, there would have to be some evidence of evolution in my family tree. No, my family would be big on Richard Attenborough. :) 08:33:12 :) 08:34:51 Okay, train in an hour, much to do. Good day to you all. :) 08:35:09 Have a good one Ray. 09:02:06 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 09:02:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tathi 09:34:30 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 09:43:44 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 10:04:41 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-134-064.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:04:43 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 10:05:50 Sounds good, Ray! :) 10:57:21 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-177-248.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:05:39 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:05:58 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 11:22:06 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 11:22:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 11:22:39 hey. 11:24:29 what's up out there? 11:27:43 not much 11:29:05 what, no newcomers busily re-implementing a fringe dialect? Nobody penning a manifesto against POSTPONE? :) 12:02:54 I'm sort of working on implementing a native-compiling system that can actually generate executables. 12:03:04 but it's not going to be a fringe dialect :) 12:04:50 ah :) 12:05:10 heh 12:05:12 hi chaps. 12:05:16 hi zpg 12:07:59 what dialect, then? 12:07:59 hi zpg 12:08:52 oh, just Standard 12:09:26 for linux? 12:10:22 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-5ab6e013fe0ad194) joined #forth 12:10:33 initially 12:11:24 generating executables with a forth would be cool. 12:12:00 actually, I've become fairly comfortable with gforth; the only reason I'm writing yet another forth is because it's annoying to have to tell people to install gforth so I can show them my software 12:12:17 so long-term, I hope to have it work for Mac OSX and Windows also 12:12:24 which forth are you writing? 12:12:43 it doesn't have a name yet. 12:13:36 is it simply an ANS forth? 12:14:41 pretty much 12:14:48 kudos, it's be nice to have an elf-generating Linux standard compiler. 12:16:08 agreed. 12:16:34 then again, being a PPCer, it's a little irritating to find a host of Forths that I can't try out as they're hardcoded in x86 ASM. similarly with one that'll generate x86 ELF 12:16:42 hehe. 12:16:45 there is this compiler.f thing, but doesn't work. 12:16:56 well, given that I'm running a PPC linux box... 12:16:57 forth > gcc (.s) would be neat i guess 12:17:07 hoorah 12:17:19 I'm trying to keep the code generation separated out as cleanly as possible 12:17:26 zpg, you could always acquire an x86 machine, they're hardly rare or dear. 12:17:28 pfff.. forth > gcc that's lame 12:17:54 i have to say, i've seen much talk of the 'each machine is different, harness the machine' ethic from chuck. portability is a really nice feature, seems to be far too easily overlooked by the forth community. 12:17:55 that's like lisp > gcc 12:18:09 Quartus_: true. i have dosbox, qemu and virtual pc lingering here too. 12:18:12 virl: pfff.. if you can generate machine code you can generate asm source and feed it to gcc without much effort. 12:18:13 but I agree that this would be perhaps the simplest way. 12:18:24 asm > gcc? 12:18:40 i was thinking outputting C for gcc, and then letting gcc handle asm generation and assembly (via as86 i think) 12:18:42 or gas. 12:18:45 can't recall. 12:18:45 that would be gas 12:18:47 the Standard is a huge effort toward portability. Binary portability is another animal entirely, and is language-independant. 12:18:48 ah, that makes more sense 12:18:58 zpg: you said .s, so I was a bit confused 12:19:09 Quartus_: i agree. if there were a series of excellent interpreters across platforms, portability would be irrelevant i guess. 12:19:40 i'm thinking more of retro of course, non-ANS and untestable locally. can ssh into a linux box to try it. but this is mostly moaning, i'm pretty happy with ANS. 12:19:53 tathi: well i meant generate the .s via gcc. 12:19:59 there's source portability, which is the one that's relevant in a language context. 12:23:34 an alternative to an executable generator might be a small single-executable self-contained Forth compiler to which source could be appended for compilation at startup. 12:23:56 yeah, i've wrapped my wxPython stuff up using py2exe and py2app. 12:24:10 clunky, but you bundle the python terp (which of course if much heftier) into the app bundle or exe (plus dlls) 12:24:40 it'd make distribution simpler, anyway. 12:24:43 very handy -- all dependencies are bundled and you don't have to make a checklist of dependencies for the recipient. i imagine the same technique would be far simpler, cleaner in forth. 12:25:46 Quartus_: yeah, I keep thinking about that. But I have this morbid fascination with ELF files. :) 12:26:21 a plus would be the availability of the compiler to the app, which might sometimes be handy. 12:26:39 yeah, that'd be neat. 12:26:44 maintain flexibility. 12:28:45 gforth is a nice implementation, but it requires installation and isn't only a single executable. 12:29:39 agreed. 12:29:48 incidentally, what's the deal with kForth, it seems to be ANSish but not ANS. 12:30:17 it's one of those 'got to a certain point and stopped' implementations. 12:30:23 ah ok. 12:31:01 I suggest avoiding it unless there's some compelling reason to use it that I'm not aware of. 12:31:10 also, i have a brief question. i'm thinking that i'd prefer an array of the form ( addr u ) -- rather than storing the count in the first cell. is this a conventional option? if so, what would be an indicative stack diagram? 12:31:36 Quartus_: yep, installed it when i started to check out Forth a few months back. i consistently use gforth though (and QF of course) 12:31:46 Recall I shrieked in horror when you showed me your 'length in the first cell' arrays :) 12:32:11 ah okay 12:32:21 for some reason i had the idea that that was the convention. 12:32:28 decent. 12:32:58 ( array nelements -- ) ( addr u -- ). Whatever makes the most sense in context. 12:33:34 or ( a-addr u ) ? 12:33:51 or is a-addr implicitly addr anyway? 12:33:58 I usually go with addr unless there's some reason to make a distinction. 12:34:08 * zpg nods 12:34:57 I wrote a super-duper array module awhile back, have to share it at some point. 12:35:47 3 5 7 2 floats 3 dimensional-array foo 12:36:05 wow :) 12:36:54 works for any number of dimensions & element width. The elements could as easily be structs. 12:37:54 it comes to mind because it must, of necessity, store information about dimensions along with the array. 12:38:05 ya 12:38:57 of course it can also do 1-dimensional cell arrays, but it's overkill for that. 12:39:42 250 1 cells 1 dimensional-array bar 12:44:55 --- quit: ygrek () 12:48:56 incidentally, Quartus_, you mentioned that the FFI library for gforth is apparently being overhauled by the team. is there a usenet posting about that? 12:49:03 *post 12:51:13 --- quit: Shine (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:52:15 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-232-167.netcologne.de) joined #forth 12:52:30 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 12:56:49 zpg, there was. No way to search from here. 12:59:20 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 13:01:05 Ah okay, shall take a look. 13:01:27 --- join: jackokring[1] (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 13:07:15 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/msg/2de6e78d5e0319b5 13:07:15 --- quit: jackokring[1] (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:07:18 maybe that? 13:07:30 from Bernd, back at 0.4.0 13:07:36 but it looks like it was pre-libffi. 13:08:03 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:10:21 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 13:10:50 I recall something more recent. 13:11:40 probably ertl, speaking of the unsuitability of the current implementation, without details. 13:12:07 :) 13:12:43 it's quite bizarre googling for this only to find a Quartus_/zpg exchange 13:12:55 heh 13:13:01 try in groups 13:13:09 shall do. 13:15:18 it just might have been on the gforth mailing-list archives actually. 13:19:04 no luck so far. 14:08:58 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:09:27 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0678.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 14:45:27 at any rate, it's not yet documented, for whatever reason. 14:48:44 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@82-35-248-212.cable.ubr06.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 14:48:49 --- quit: earth| (Client Quit) 14:59:56 which is silly, because it's simple to use 15:07:35 I think so too. 15:09:45 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:45:12 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:52:34 hey 15:59:29 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 16:01:04 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 16:04:30 hey 17:06:32 --- join: snowrichard (n=snow_ric@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 17:06:35 hello 17:09:58 --- quit: zpg ("cheers for now") 17:21:59 --- join: I440r (n=foo@65.244.197.34) joined #forth 17:23:42 hello 17:37:44 --- quit: snowrichard () 18:30:22 --- quit: I440r () 19:20:48 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 19:34:38 --- join: I440r (n=foo@65.244.197.34) joined #forth 20:57:52 --- part: Sukoshi left #forth 20:57:56 --- join: Sukoshi (n=user@user-11faadf.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #forth 22:18:04 --- quit: I440r (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:18:04 --- quit: timlarson (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:18:09 --- join: I440r (n=foo@65.244.197.34) joined #forth 22:18:09 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l325b.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 22:48:41 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@82-35-248-212.cable.ubr06.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 22:50:19 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:00:52 --- quit: earth| ("\") 23:01:11 --- join: earth| (n=sqrt@82-35-248-212.cable.ubr06.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #forth 23:05:17 --- quit: earth| (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.16