00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.15
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02:09:00 <snowrichard> hello
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03:30:19 <snowrichard> hello
03:51:43 <snowrichard> hi
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03:59:02 <snowrichard> hello
03:59:06 <snowrichard> anybody up?
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04:09:20 <snowrichard> http://schizophrenicprogrammer.info just updated
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05:22:43 <snowrichard> hi
05:29:27 <tathi> hi
05:56:24 <snowrichard> hey tathi
05:56:30 <snowrichard> you have sound? 
05:56:42 <snowrichard> winamp or realplayer?
05:56:58 <snowrichard> I have a new radio station
05:57:54 <snowrichard> http://schizophrenicprogrammer.info  is the web site.  There's a play link on it
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06:14:12 <Ray_work> Friday!
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06:17:10 <snowrichard> hi
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06:24:09 <tathi> bleh.  I wouldn't be caught dead with winamp or realplayer.
06:24:42 <ayrnieu> I've only used mplayer for years now, except for an OSX phase.
06:25:41 <tathi> actually, I don't really do sound on my computer at all.
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06:31:53 <Ray_work> I remember winAmp as a collossal resource hog.
06:37:57 <Ray_work> I remember Ray_work as a collossal donut hog. 
06:45:18 <ayrnieu> they must have 'improved' winamp over time, then.
06:45:25 <ayrnieu> they must have 'improved' Ray_work over time, then.
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06:58:42 <absentia> anyone have an mp3 player in forth?
07:00:22 <Ray_work> I don't have any experiance with winamp after win3.1 I suppose, and Ray_work lost 70 some odd pounds, both improvements, I believe.
07:00:28 <ayrnieu> NAFAIK.
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09:02:43 <snowrichard> hi
09:02:47 <snowrichard> neceve
09:03:34 <neceve> hi snowrichard
09:03:44 <snowrichard> do you have sound?
09:03:54 <snowrichard> like winamp or xmms, 
09:04:00 <neceve> yes
09:04:03 <neceve> xmms
09:04:13 <snowrichard> care to test my radio station?
09:05:09 <neceve> ok
09:05:13 <snowrichard> http://schizophrenicprogrammer.info has a link to the listen.pls
09:06:41 <neceve> it's working
09:06:56 <snowrichard> thanks
09:07:31 <snowrichard> does the donate button show up? I was having some trouble with that
09:20:25 <neceve> sorry, I was out
09:20:33 <neceve> yes, there is
09:20:56 <neceve> (the button)
09:25:52 <snowrichard> thanks
09:25:54 <snowrichard> again
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10:01:17 * tathi wonders if snowrichard will ever get his radiostation working reliably
10:01:38 <Quartus> Will his great work ever be complete? :)
10:01:55 <tathi> seems like all he ever does is come in here and asks people to check if it's working :)
10:02:22 <Quartus> Well, if it were, he'd have nothing to say, then. :)
10:02:30 <tathi> :)
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10:14:48 <snowrichard> hi
10:17:00 <Quartus> hello
10:17:36 <snowrichard> I've set up an account on a shoutcast server last night. The web interface is really easy to use.
10:18:21 <snowrichard> that is once I found out why it was trashing my uploads (wrong sample rate)
10:19:16 <Quartus> I see.
10:19:37 <snowrichard> it emailed me with the error
10:21:11 <Quartus> heh
10:22:38 <snowrichard> updated my web site to reflect this new endeavor: http://schizophrenicprogrammer.info
10:24:09 <snowrichard> getting some coffee brb
10:25:37 <Quartus___> mobile presently.
10:25:38 <snowrichard> k
10:25:51 <snowrichard> on your cell? or laptop
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10:32:18 <Quartus___> blackberry
10:34:50 <snowrichard> I've seen those on TV ads.  pretty cool looking thing
10:39:13 <Quartus___> handy, to be sure.
10:40:08 <snowrichard> is there a tiny Qwerty keyboard?
10:40:20 <snowrichard> I hated typeing on the cell phone
10:41:36 <Quartus___> there is. Thumb keyboard.
10:53:01 <absentia> they ren't called crackberries for nothin'
10:53:31 <snowrichard> lol
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11:03:58 <Quartus___> Helps me stay in touch with customers.
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11:12:59 <Quartus___> still working on starting forth, absentia?
11:14:40 <absentia> no
11:14:45 <absentia> read 3 books... need another.
11:15:04 <Quartus___> what 3?
11:15:30 <absentia> starting, thinking and one other.  the stuff from the #forth topic
11:15:42 <absentia> I'm going to lookat the retro wiki...
11:16:08 <Quartus___> what do you feel you still need to find out?
11:16:14 <absentia> nothing.
11:16:18 <absentia> just need to write something in it
11:16:29 <absentia> I want to write a translation of a program...  from kbyter from '83
11:16:44 <Quartus___> kbyter?
11:18:39 <absentia> ya
11:18:40 <absentia> just a sec
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11:20:15 <absentia> ok, back.
11:20:41 <Quartus___> what is kbyter?
11:20:46 <absentia> basically, I need to simulate peek and poke (peek_screen and poke_screen)
11:21:01 <absentia> I could then sumulate a full screen refresh with vt100 codes... such as gotoxy.
11:21:10 <absentia> with those 3 items, I can do basic ascii games inforth
11:21:17 <absentia> and with that, I can see how I like the language.
11:21:32 <absentia> but learning forth is good... for mindstorms -- it has forth and nqc
11:21:37 <absentia> a magazine, I think
11:21:47 <absentia> it's a program that I used that taught me how to program.... 
11:21:48 <Quartus___> there's at-xy in Forth. If you tracked everything you wrote, you could simulate a screen peek.
11:22:01 <absentia> right, I want to use an 80x24 array
11:22:15 <Quartus___> sure. 
11:22:25 <absentia> that's why peek_screen = array[x+y*wid] .. and poke screen, then gotoxy, and  emit
11:22:35 <Quartus___> a wrapper around at-xy and emit would do the trick.
11:22:43 <absentia> right, I didn't know about at-xy
11:22:54 <absentia> but that's the same as knowing the terminal type (vt100, etc)
11:22:57 <Quartus___> standard word
11:23:10 <absentia> I don't nkow what the standard words are yet -- I haven't read the ans stuff
11:23:12 <Quartus___> gforth has at-xy
11:23:25 <absentia> anyway, just wanted something that was small enough that I could hope to finish it without much time (I don't have much time)
11:23:29 <absentia> and get something somewhat useful out of it
11:23:45 <absentia> does gforth have the boot off floppy to forth thing?
11:24:12 <absentia> what I really want is boot from floppy + some basic obs/libs... ilke wifi/ethernet/tcpip dhcp... etc
11:24:18 <Ray_work> Q u a r t u s.  H o w  a r e  y o u  t o d a y?
11:24:27 <Quartus___> hi ray.
11:24:38 <Quartus___> I don't recall a native Gforth.
11:25:07 <Quartus___> maybe a tiny live-cd of linux would suit you.
11:25:09 <absentia> I'm torn between forth appearing to be just what I want -- and its apparent lack of support/libs and c++ being huge, but widely recognized and yet still very damnfast.
11:25:17 <absentia> :-<
11:25:21 <absentia> too many dialects of forth
11:26:00 <absentia> I did find a lisp in forth -- was only 300+ lines... so, a 1K forth (whatver) ... a boot floppy, plus the lisp... and things seem really good (cept for no libs)
11:26:05 <Quartus___> there are a fair number of fringe dialects, but the Standard exists and is widely used.  As you can see, Standard layers can be written, as for rf.
11:26:22 <absentia> true
11:26:42 <Quartus___> If you want to access shared libs, most forths allow straightforward ffi.
11:27:06 <absentia> :-)
11:27:12 <absentia> that's what I'm debating
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11:27:33 <absentia> whether I gain anything implementing in forth and using (u)ffi to get to c libs, or just to code in c in the first palce.
11:27:53 <absentia> I can get an interactive c and c++ shell... so that's not really different than forth then.
11:28:02 <absentia> (in terms of assembling immediately)
11:28:12 <Quartus___> well, if you have a project to complete, use the tools and language you know best.
11:28:15 <absentia> forth may be lower, in the end... 
11:28:23 <absentia> no, nothing to complete.
11:28:40 <Quartus___> forth is quite unlike C, even interactive C.
11:28:44 <absentia> just trying to find one language I can move to that's not interpreted -- I use a lot of shell, perl, php, python, etc.
11:28:51 <absentia> I want a compiled (or assembled) language.
11:29:18 <absentia> so I went to c++ (because I wanted to do gui.. and there's Qt -- I started with python qt, but the start up was too slow -- took 45+ seconds, etc ... c++ +qt is subsecond)
11:29:30 <absentia> now looking into lisp and scheme to design my own ai and language
11:29:54 <absentia> and then came across forth -- as a minimal .. but still comparing to lisp.... but a forth boot base (is what I need/want) and then adding a lisp ontop of that in under 300 lines... is what I want
11:30:00 <absentia> the forth is also public domain -- not even gpl
11:30:37 <absentia> http://www.spy.org/tmp/bwb1.png
11:30:50 <absentia> http://www.spy.org/tmp/poker2.png
11:31:00 <absentia> those are my second and third programs ever written in c++
11:31:39 <absentia> both run on my laptop and pda unmodified.. the code actually checks the pda for orientation (and size) and will rotate the screen when the thing is flipped.. 
11:32:16 <absentia> those cards are public domain -- and the "widget" to display them was my first qt display widget.
11:32:27 <absentia> I'm surprised how easy it was to write it and how well it worked.
11:33:06 <absentia> of course, Iw as doing this a two years ago -- when I had more time.
11:33:31 <absentia> but for forth, I could do a little adventure game...
11:33:34 <absentia> oh, I had one question.
11:33:35 <absentia> you there?
11:34:02 <Ray_work> you are not alone. :)
11:34:28 <absentia> in forth -- I need to be able to check for input... from, say, a keyboard.. but not block on that.
11:35:18 <Ray_work> check out the ANS word KEY  i believe.
11:35:21 <Quartus___> key? is the standard word, or ekey?
11:35:33 <absentia> yup. that's all I need.
11:35:42 <absentia> I'll give it a show here in about 90 minutes.
11:36:00 <absentia> I'll scan the program that  I'm talkking about 
11:36:09 <Quartus___> those ? words return available event status.
11:36:09 <Ray_work> :)
11:36:14 <absentia> i have the original magazine page... from .. .I think.. .april 1983.  it's all wrinkled and stuff
11:36:24 <Ray_work> Quartus: on the stack or in flags?
11:36:26 <absentia> I'll get up a list of standard words here in a sec.
11:36:42 <Quartus___> on the stack.
11:36:49 * Ray_work does his own home work.
11:36:59 <Ray_work> No i don't.
11:37:00 <absentia> laugh. I hate it when I use google to look up something and it refers me back to my own site
11:37:07 <Ray_work> hahaha :)
11:37:14 <Quartus___> there are no status flags in a standard forth.
11:37:15 <absentia> I just tried to look up kbyter adventure in google, and it referred me to one of my own conversations.
11:37:26 <Ray_work> AH okay thanks for that Quartus.
11:37:37 <absentia> from 2003
11:37:40 <Ray_work> :)
11:37:50 <Ray_work> You've been talking along time about it. :)
11:38:08 <TreyB> s/along/a long/
11:38:11 <absentia> well, just the same story... different channel, etc.
11:38:38 <Ray_work> TreyB: thankyou :)
11:38:49 <TreyB> Really changes the meaning of the sentence :-)
11:39:46 <absentia> funny. in that archive I talk about makind scans of ths tuff... I still haven't done it
11:40:05 <absentia> now I was just about ready to start two weekends ago, so I looked for my pics -- and I discovered that I lost 30 years worth of photogarphs.
11:40:25 <absentia> :-<  I still want to scan some of the documents, though.  get them in electronic form and then send copies out all over.
11:40:41 <absentia> i can't wait for blu-ray anymore... or hdvd. it's taking too long, and I 'm losing stuff
11:41:28 <absentia> I had 90% of all my computers stolen a few years back -- that was bad enough.
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11:57:06 <absentia> are you fmiliar with SDL ?
11:57:12 <absentia> a forth interface to SDL would be nice.
11:58:37 <tathi> gforth has ffi
11:58:46 <tathi> it's not hard to use :)
11:59:15 <absentia> true.. and it's probably worth it for sdl, then with forth + sdl you could probably get a pretty dan good emulator base.
12:00:51 <tathi> yeah, one guy who used to hang out here was building a 65816-based computer, and he used gforth+SDL to do an emulator for writing the firmware
12:08:51 <absentia> yup
12:09:21 <absentia> as long as I can go from a forth to sdl, I should be able to do decent things... and then if I get better with low level stuff, I could drop the sdl.  I think sdl is gpl.
12:10:47 <absentia> ah, simple forth.. leo wong.
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12:33:02 <Quartus_> Learning Forth means learning a different set of skills than, say, C.  It's not apples-apples.
12:34:42 <absentia> how so ?
12:36:18 <TreyB> Like the difference between Texas BBQ and Cordon Bleu chefs: you get to eat the results, but you get there in very different ways.
12:36:29 <absentia> :-)
12:36:46 <absentia> seriously, I've seen enough languages -- they're all basically the same.
12:37:21 <absentia> they're just set up to express ideas (algorithms) in a different base/concentional way.
12:37:35 <Quartus_> in fact they are not, and you'll be missing out if you stop your analysis there.
12:43:15 <Quartus_> they achieve the same goal, that of describing a process to a computer.
12:43:33 <absentia> yes
12:44:44 <Quartus_> that doesn't make them the same, however.
12:45:20 <absentia> I find that in just about all my programming experience, you end up only with syntax getting in the way.
12:45:33 <absentia> grammar boils down to only a few items -- mostly function calls.
12:46:14 <Quartus_> sounds like you've only ever used algol-derived languages.
12:46:52 <absentia> whetner I s x(y(z(a(b,c))));  or I (x (y (z (a b c)))) or I  c b a z y x 
12:48:42 <Quartus_> it is possible to write the same kind of code you'd write iin C, in Forth. It makes the most horrible code you can imagine.
12:49:00 <absentia> ya, don't want to do that.
12:49:24 <absentia> but on the other hand, you could write the code you write in forth in c, and it would probably improve the c
12:49:25 <absentia> :-)
12:49:28 <Quartus_> in order to not do that, you have to understand that Forth is not yet another Algol derivative.
12:50:22 <Quartus_> factoring is a key skill, as is naming and abstraction, and learning to properly use and manage the stack.
12:50:46 <Quartus_> These skills will improve you as a programmer in any language.
12:51:28 <absentia> yup
12:52:26 <absentia> I look at forth as what I Wanted from assembly.
12:52:43 <Quartus_> let me assure you, as someone with many years experience in both Algol-derived and non-Algol-derived languages -- it's not all about the syntax. A language like Forth is actually different.
12:52:57 <absentia> assembly annoyed me that my labels were ... only labels (and not words, if you follow my drift... )
12:54:08 <absentia> have you ever seen a 4bit forth?
12:54:17 <Quartus_> assembler is one (or so) level of abstraction away from machine code. A good macro assembler adds some additional power.  Forth is more than that, though.
12:54:52 <Quartus_> I have seen 4-bit efforts.  Clumsy environment to work in.
12:54:56 <absentia> right, but forth is what I *wanted* assembly to be.
12:55:12 <absentia> but I know why assembly is what it is -- it's pure and 1:1
12:59:58 <Quartus_> machine code is 1:1. Assembly commonly moves away from that, though usually not too far.
13:01:12 <absentia> er, I guess so.. with things like defining strings and stuff...
13:02:27 <Quartus_> and instruction selection.
13:02:39 <Quartus_> and directives.
13:03:35 <Quartus_> branch optimization, etc.
13:03:45 <absentia> hmm. true.
13:04:31 <Quartus> Forth is definitely not 1:1. It's a high-level language.
13:04:49 <absentia> right.  you define the words.
13:06:02 <Quartus> The dictionary is a substantial abstraction, and the code generated during compilation can be at any required level of abstraction; it isn't one instruction per word.
13:06:53 <Quartus> Optimizing native-code Forth compilers translate Forth into optimized native-code, just as, say, gcc does for C.
13:08:30 <absentia> right
13:08:53 <absentia> I like the fact that see word... in gforth is showing me assembly for built in words -- although I don't know x86 assembly
13:09:18 <absentia> for my own defs, it is showing me my def (although it would be great to see the resulting assembly.. with another command
13:09:43 <Quartus> In Gforth, there is no resulting assembly for your words. It's a threaded system.
13:09:50 <absentia> it *feels* like I'm typing (single) words -- and gettting assembly out.  that's very nice -- although I"m sure I could do the same for C ... C seems larger and more distant from the hardware.
13:10:24 <absentia> threaded -- but it jumps to your code when your code is running. it's not interpreted at that time.
13:10:39 <Quartus> Depends on what you mean by 'interpreted'.
13:10:47 <absentia> pcode
13:10:50 <absentia> byte-code
13:10:55 <absentia> non-machine-code
13:10:56 <Quartus> RetroForth, with or without the ANS layer, is a native-code compiler.  It lays down actual machine instructions.
13:11:31 <absentia> how do I see those?
13:11:44 <Quartus> Gforth doesn't; it lays down subroutine addresses, effectively.  There's more to it than that, but it isn't native code.
13:11:55 <absentia> : sq dup * . ;
13:11:55 <Quartus> The machine instructions under RetroForth?  You'd need to run a disassembler.
13:12:02 <absentia> in rf... no view, see, dis .. 
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13:12:19 <Quartus> see sq
13:12:19 <Quartus> ( $513790 )  mov     dword ptr FC [esi] , eax  \ $89 $46 $FC
13:12:19 <Quartus> ( $513793 )  lea     esi , dword ptr FC [esi]  \ $8D $76 $FC
13:12:19 <Quartus> ( $513796 )  call    *  \ $E8 $35 $21 $FF $FF
13:12:19 <Quartus> ( $51379B )  call    .  \ $E8 $60 $5C $FF $FF
13:12:20 <Quartus> ( $5137A0 )  ret     near  \ $C3
13:12:27 <absentia> ya, in gforth
13:12:31 <Quartus> That's under RetroForth, using the 386 disassembler from Gforth.
13:12:49 <Quartus> On top of my ANS layer.
13:12:54 <absentia> ah
13:13:08 <Quartus> In Gforth,
13:13:09 <Quartus> see sq
13:13:09 <Quartus> : sq
13:13:09 <Quartus>   dup * . ;
13:13:39 <absentia> yup
13:13:53 <Quartus> It isn't native-code in GForth.  GForth is not a native-code compiler.
13:14:15 <Quartus> Interestingly, GForth is considerably faster than RetroForth.
13:14:22 <absentia> oh, I see what you mean.
13:14:37 <absentia> sorry.  yes, I agree with you.
13:14:59 <absentia> ya, that is interesting.
13:15:09 <absentia> (especially considering)
13:15:43 <Quartus> What you can see here is that the correspondence between the internal machine representation and the original Forth source is compiler-dependent, and is semantic in nature; there's no other required correspondence.
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13:30:31 <tathi> probably because RetroForth doesn't have separate code/data spaces
13:30:42 <Quartus> that's part of it.
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13:36:10 <tathi> have any idea what else might be contributing?
13:36:45 <Quartus> It wasn't written with an eye toward speed.  There are a number of primitives that could do with some wirebrushing.  Code-alignment also helps.
13:36:57 <Quartus> Simple optimization would take it yet further.
13:39:23 <tathi> ah.  I assumed it was built with that stuff in mind, had all the basic look-back optimizations and so on.
13:39:53 <absentia> I think freeforth triesd some of those things on top of rf
13:40:08 <Quartus> It inlines short sequences, but that's it.
13:41:04 <absentia> I thought it did more than that
13:42:44 <Quartus> I've climbed all over it while building the ANS layer.
13:44:14 <tathi> hmm.
13:45:30 <absentia> I thought I raid somewhere about tail recursion
13:45:52 <tathi> huh.  I wonder where along the line that stuff disappeared.
13:46:17 <Quartus> The one I have here doesn't optimize tail-calls.
13:46:48 <tathi> I bet he dropped it when he rewrote it with Rx as a separate piece.
13:47:27 <tathi> Back at 7.x (I think) it was more similar to colorforth inside and had tail-call and other lookback optimizations.
13:48:09 <Quartus> I tuned in later than that.
13:49:21 <tathi> or...maybe I'm just imagining things.
13:52:49 <Quartus> I think you may be right, I vaguely recall crc discussing that there were earlier optimizations that didn't stay in.
13:52:57 <absentia> ok
13:53:06 <absentia> strange.
13:53:10 <tathi> yeah...I don't know anymore.
13:53:15 <tathi> I thought I remembered seeing it
13:53:18 <Quartus> Anyway optimization doesn't have to be a design goal.
13:53:30 <tathi> but I just looked back through a few versions and didn't see it anywhere.
13:53:50 <tathi> ya, modern computers are plenty fast enough anyway :)
13:54:07 <TreyB> That depends on the task at hand.
13:54:40 * absentia coughs.
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13:55:28 <Quartus> Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-optimization, to a point.
13:57:38 <zpg> hi
13:57:55 <Quartus> Hey.
13:59:22 <absentia> hi
14:06:29 <zpg> hey guys
14:06:50 <zpg> Quartus: btw, although £50 (dear!!) would you highly rate the Aho Compilers book?
14:08:09 <Quartus> If you're looking for the best book from the Temple of Complex Compilers, it's the one to get.
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14:15:45 * zpg nods
14:15:47 <zpg> thanks
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14:32:14 <absentia> hah! ok... after I finish this book/doc -- I'm definitely gonna have to read the ANS standard :->
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14:59:52 <Quartus> The Forth standard, particularly the appendix, is good to read.
15:16:42 <zpg> absentia: stick with it.
15:20:49 <absentia> yup.
15:20:58 <absentia> plan on it
15:22:55 <zpg> good schtuff
15:23:48 <Quartus> Meanwhile I make toys.
15:23:58 <absentia> toys?
15:24:13 <Quartus> Currently building a Crow T. Robot.
15:24:18 <absentia> nice
15:24:29 <absentia> I have to convince my wife to let me get a mindstorm2 for christmas
15:24:38 <Quartus> lego?
15:25:26 <absentia> yup
15:25:34 <absentia> there's a low level forth -- and nqc for it
15:25:34 <Quartus> I should sell off my original Mindstorms, I don't use it.
15:25:38 <absentia> the mindstorm2 is awesome.
15:25:48 <Quartus> I've met Ralph Hempel, the pbForth guy. Nice guy.
15:25:50 <absentia> ya, the original was kinda limited... in comparison
15:25:55 <absentia> how much do you wanna sell'm for?
15:26:20 <Quartus> I have only the original kit, all the bits & pieces + the brick & interface.  I don't know what's a fair price.
15:26:49 <absentia> me either
15:26:56 <absentia> I'd probably hit ebay or something.
15:27:04 <absentia> but I'm mostly interested in ms2
15:27:04 <Quartus> I'll do that in a bit.  Painting presently.
15:27:09 <absentia> man
15:27:12 <absentia> you have free time
15:27:15 <absentia> you are lucky.
15:27:20 <Quartus> Free? No, this is work.
15:27:23 <absentia> I aven't had free time since....  august 2005
15:27:32 <absentia> making toys -- painting?
15:27:35 <Quartus> Right.
15:27:38 <Quartus> I sell these.
15:27:48 <absentia> ah
15:27:52 <absentia> nice
15:28:13 <Quartus> http://nealbridges.com/gallery
15:30:13 <absentia> that's a lot of work
15:30:37 <Quartus> Fortunately I enjoy it.  When I'm not working on Quartus Forth, I can work with my hands.
15:32:23 <madgarden> Quartus, what features does your free Quartus download have?
15:33:26 <Quartus> All the features of the purchased version, with two limitations -- smaller codespace, and no turnkey executables.
15:33:47 <madgarden> Thanks. That's pretty nice!
15:33:51 <Quartus> There's no timeout.  The console screen has 'Unregistered' on it.
15:34:26 <madgarden> Very nice.
15:34:35 <madgarden> I've a friend who wants to hack his phone's ROM.
15:34:43 <Quartus> And if you were hell-bent on removing the 'unregistered', you could do that. :)
15:34:52 <madgarden> Hehe.
15:35:54 <Quartus> A Treo?
15:36:34 <madgarden> I believe so.
15:37:07 <Quartus> I offer a discount for studnets.
15:37:11 <Quartus> students, too. :)
15:37:32 <madgarden> Ahh, too bad. ;) 
15:38:32 <madgarden> I think my friend is too afraid of the Forth way, heh.
15:38:46 <madgarden> (even though he's dabbled in it with my work projects)
15:39:21 <Quartus> Ah well. Not everybody is up to the challenge of becoming a better programmer.
15:39:46 <madgarden> Amen brother!
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16:17:34 <absentia> re
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16:32:55 <Raystm2> re
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16:36:29 <ttuttle> Quartus: Is it normal for a laptop battery to lose 37% of its capacity in 3 months?
16:43:13 <Quartus_> ttuttle, doesn't sound too good.
16:43:27 <Quartus_> do you leave it plugged in all the time? That can hurt it.
16:44:10 <ttuttle> Quartus_: Can it?  The manual says it has a circuit to prevent overcharging.
16:44:32 <ttuttle> Quartus_: (I do leave it plugged in most of the time.)
16:46:50 <Quartus_> I suggest charging it only when it's drained. You might want to run through a reconditioning cycle now.
16:47:03 <ttuttle> Quartus_: I tried that, discharging it almost completely and recharging.
16:47:11 <ttuttle> Quartus_: It didn't seem to help.
16:47:42 <ttuttle> Quartus_: Pfft, Dell thinks a BIOS upgrade will help.
16:47:50 <ttuttle> Quartus_: (Luckily I'm already up to date.)
16:50:10 <Raystm2> Studnet discount. I'm for that. http://studnet.com/
16:50:17 <Raystm2> Don't go there. 
16:51:39 <Raystm2> Quartus: let us do the "deed" tomorrow. I've finally got it all saved up, but I have to deposit it and I missed the bank tonight.
16:52:15 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Whassat?
16:52:49 <Raystm2> hi ttuttle. 
16:53:06 <Raystm2> earlier Quartus misspelled Student.
16:53:15 <Raystm2> He spelled it studnet.
16:53:16 <ttuttle> oh.
16:53:19 <ttuttle> lol.
16:53:31 <Raystm2> I was supprised to find a site about men with that name.
16:53:44 <Raystm2> Not too supprised.
16:53:56 <Raystm2> Any way, the "deed" is ...
16:54:32 <Raystm2> I want Quartus to unlock my bondage from his QuartusForth, but at the student rate, being that i am his lowliest studnet.
16:54:41 <Raystm2> or is that stednut?
16:54:53 <ttuttle> Quartus_: "Naveen_01130413" at Dell says that the BIOS upgrade will magically recondition the battery.
16:55:49 <ttuttle> Quartus_: I think he/she is making it up.
16:59:23 <ttuttle> Quartus_: What do you think?
17:04:15 <Quartus_> can't hurt to run the bios reconditioning routine, newest version. Maybe the old one is buggy.
17:06:27 <ttuttle> Quartus_: There isn't one, I don't think.
17:06:38 <Quartus_> could be the power levels are being misreported.
17:07:25 <ttuttle> Quartus_: Nah, the battery itself says that it's below 80% of rated capacity.  (The charge indicator lights show current charge if you press the button, and capacity if you hold it for 3 seconds.)
17:07:54 <Quartus_> ok.
17:08:06 <ttuttle> Quartus_: And the runtime is actually shorter.
17:11:46 <Quartus_> a recondition can't hurt. If I'm going to leave a laptop plugged in, I remove the battery.
17:27:14 * ttuttle tries to think of ways to drain the battery faster.
17:28:56 <ttuttle> Hmm, constant Bluetooth scans, constant find / -type f -exec cat \{\} \; > /dev/null, plus two cores of folding@home.  brightness at full, music playing.  oh, and constant cat /dev/sr0 (cdrom) > /dev/null
17:29:37 <ttuttle> Ooh, up to 4.339 amps.
17:29:55 <ttuttle> 4.551!
17:30:03 <ttuttle> I don't think I've ever seen it use that much before.
17:30:05 <ttuttle> 4.645.
17:30:28 <ttuttle> Oh, and rev the fan to full speed.
17:31:16 <ttuttle> And constant WiFi scanning as well.
17:31:38 <ttuttle> Whoa, 4.929 A!
17:35:00 <ttuttle> And constant blanking of a CD-RW disc.
17:35:38 <Raystm2> Give is a couple of swapping while loops.
17:35:52 <ttuttle> swapping?  like swap partition?
17:35:57 <ttuttle> or you mean burning and reading?
17:36:17 <Raystm2> I certain that's better then what I was thinking.
17:36:26 <ttuttle> I didn't know what you were thinking.
17:36:34 <ttuttle> Well constant burning is better than alternating, 'cause burning uses more power.
17:36:37 <Raystm2> Which was to right a couple apps the do nothing but swap the stack for ever.
17:36:52 <ttuttle> Meh, I have Folding@Home to waste CPU.
17:36:58 <Raystm2> write even.
18:03:39 <crc> good evening
18:03:59 <ttuttle> crc: hello
18:07:12 <Raystm2> hi crc. 
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18:22:28 <absentia> i
18:22:29 <absentia> hi
18:22:52 <ttuttle> Quartus_: Alright, the battery is thoroughly drained.  I'm going to give it a few minutes to cool off and then recharge it.
18:25:44 <absentia> does anyobody know of any resources (tutorials?) dealing with using SDL from/with forth?
18:35:09 <Quartus_> Wasn't somebody fiddling with that a while back?
18:35:38 <Quartus_> it's just an ffi thing, so make with i'ing the ff's.
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19:16:58 <Quartus> hmm, I think it was Cherry sending floating-point numbers through to OpenGL, actually.
19:17:11 <Quartus> From rf.
19:17:25 <Quartus> That's what I'm remembering.  He was hampered by a lack of floating-point in rf.
19:25:29 <absentia> hmm
19:39:59 <absentia> anyone here?
19:40:02 <absentia> got a q...
19:40:10 <ayrnieu> sure, ask it.
19:41:53 <absentia> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/BzW3WU88.html
19:41:56 <absentia> sorry, was pasting.
19:42:09 <absentia> I'm confused... shouldn't that "find" be "word" ?
19:42:17 <absentia> according to the english at the bottom ?
19:42:30 <absentia> line 15
19:42:36 <Quartus> yeah, that's broken. Where did you find that?
19:43:05 <absentia> http://home.claranet.nl/users/mhx/sf11/sf11.html
19:43:05 <Quartus> It's also hideously out of date, it's describing an implementation model about 20 years old.
19:43:40 <Quartus> Ok. Looks like that chapter could use some additional updating.
19:43:42 <absentia> leo brodie -- starting forth, chap 11.
19:44:11 <absentia> well, for an overview.. it's ok.. just a few more typos are creeping in.  i've seen a few other code errors.. but this one .. I wanted to make sure
19:44:40 <Quartus> That's not Brodie; it's a reworking of Brodie by somebody else.
19:44:59 <Quartus> Updated in places, but that bit is apparently not.
19:45:16 <absentia> k
19:45:24 <Quartus> Anyway SF itself is quite old, and is specific to an antique implementation model
19:45:54 <ayrnieu> I'd recommend gforth's tutorials as a better introduction if you already program.
19:46:02 <Quartus> In modern systems, for instance, ] is not a loop.
19:48:07 <absentia> I'm not overly worried 'bout the exactness ... mostly getting an overview.
19:48:13 <absentia> I'll look at the gforth tutorials next.
19:50:15 <absentia> actually, about 50% through programforth ... gonna finish that first.
19:50:37 <Quartus> what is programforth?
19:52:20 <absentia> http://www.mpeforth.com/books.htm
19:52:30 <Quartus> Oh. Programming Forth.
19:53:15 <absentia> this is my forth dir so far:
19:53:18 <absentia> bochs                keyboard.jpg        thinking-forth-color.pdf
19:53:18 <absentia> chuck05-jg5.tar.gz   lisp-in-forth.gz    thinking-forth.pdf
19:53:18 <absentia> fasm-1.67.tgz        parallel_forth.pdf  thinking-in-forth.url
19:53:18 <absentia> fasm-info            ProgramForth.pdf    urls-freenode
19:53:18 <absentia> forth.html           retro
19:53:19 <absentia> gforth-0.6.2.tar.gz  RetroIRC.tar.gz
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20:01:49 <absentia> im confused by "create"
20:02:01 <ayrnieu> ask a question about it.
20:03:26 <absentia> well, still trying to figure itout...itseems to grab a location, do someting that that location, increase that location pointer ... but not sure what it leaves on the stack (if anything) or if it consumes...  etc
20:03:56 <Quartus> It's not that complex.      create foo     aligns HERE, and makes a new word FOO that returns that value.
20:04:40 <Quartus> So       create foo 23 ,    foo @ . -> 23
20:05:00 <absentia> : field create immediate over , + does> @ state
20:05:00 <absentia>   @ if postpone literal postpone + else + then;
20:05:18 <Quartus> Ok, so you want to leap right in to a fantastically funky implementation of FIELD.
20:05:36 <Quartus> Take it in smaller steps.
20:08:22 <absentia> what would this do?  create foo [ here U. ] 23 , [ here U. ]
20:08:56 <absentia> jumps 4 bytes.
20:10:21 <Quartus> all by itself, you mean?
20:10:36 <Quartus> or is that part of a definition?
20:10:55 <Quartus> If it's by itself, you don't want the [ and ]
20:11:01 <absentia> wll, I  asked before I thype it in.. assuming it would give me here-mem and then here-mem+4.. which it did.. but it also gives me strange effects of saying "compiled" after everything I type following it
20:11:08 <Quartus> And if it's in a definition, it's going to give you useless information.
20:11:30 <Quartus> create foo  here .  23 ,  here .  will show a difference of one cell-size
20:11:35 <absentia> well, ya, I thought about that... putting it in a def, but then [ is immediate, I want postponed
20:11:51 <absentia> I guess the , is throwing me
20:11:54 <Quartus> You don't want it postponed.  You don't want it at all.  See above. 
20:11:57 <absentia> it doesn't use anything from the stack?
20:12:02 <Quartus> , is a very simple word, stores a value at HERE.  
20:12:12 <Quartus> Yes, it uses a value from the stack.  In the example above, it uses 23.
20:12:28 <absentia> I meant... addr value
20:15:29 <absentia> ah.
20:15:30 <absentia> ah
20:16:35 <absentia> state smart words are evil.  :-)
20:16:49 <Quartus> the addr is HERE.
20:17:29 <absentia> right -- got it now. :-)
20:18:03 <absentia> can : XXXX  be where XXXX is blank or nothing?
20:18:49 <Quartus> :noname is the word you're looking for.
20:19:41 <absentia> I just see in this book a : name word1 : word1 word word; ;
20:19:47 <absentia> confused me.
20:20:08 <absentia> looks like a procedure in a procedure.
20:20:15 <absentia> rather, word in a word.
20:21:39 <absentia> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/q6D8T317.html
20:27:39 <Quartus> You can do that. It's taking its input, in the second case, from the command-line at the time 'name' executes.
20:27:53 <Quartus> : is not a syntactic marker. It's a word.
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20:32:49 <absentia> ha
20:32:56 <absentia> the asm for "ms" is huge
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20:59:04 <Quartus> In Gforth, it appears to be a select() call with a timeout, so the assembler for it is whatever gcc generated.
21:03:20 <absentia> it makes sense.
21:09:11 <Quartus> New werties! But they're not insane enough to be funny.
21:11:16 <absentia> heheh
21:11:26 <absentia> I'll take a break later for that.
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