00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.12.11
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05:28:00 <ayrnieu> PFE seems like a decent-enough forth system.
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06:11:59 <zpg> Afternoon.
06:12:40 <Ray_work> Good morning. and Good afternoon to zpg. :)
06:13:17 <Ray_work> I was totally useless this weekend. 
06:13:55 <Ray_work> I did get out to the guitar store for my anual Christmas trek for supplies. 
06:16:15 <Ray_work> I had a lot of pain this weekend. I did do a little more colorForth revcovery work tho. 
06:16:47 <Ray_work> AND I did look over all of the code that was available and came thru this chat over the last few days.
06:19:20 <zpg> Feeling better today?
06:21:38 <Ray_work> I think I'm getting headaches from dehydration. I will water today. :)
06:22:06 <Ray_work> And maybe I could have done without a fingerfull of my daughers cookie dough...
06:23:12 <Ray_work> But yes, overall, I could take on a tiger. :)
06:23:35 <zpg> :)
06:23:41 <Ray_work> Ok, would you believe the cowardly lion from Wizard of Oz?
06:25:42 <Ray_work> How's about yourself, zpg?
06:29:26 <zpg> Not been up to much, finally put an end to my lethargy at 5:20am this morning.
06:29:44 <zpg> So feeling better than I was yesterday, that's for sure.
06:31:11 <Ray_work> Well, you seem to have been going, and going, and going, for quite some time, or at least the logs bear that out.
06:33:00 <zpg> Yes, rather ridiculously so.
06:33:17 <zpg> I reached a point where it seemed a little pointless to go to sleep.
06:34:06 <Ray_work> :)
06:41:35 <ayrnieu> speaking of such things--
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06:44:05 <zpg> Yes?
06:44:07 <zpg> Hi tathi.
06:44:27 <tathi> hi zpg
06:44:36 <Ray_work> tathi.
06:44:57 <tathi> Hey Ray
06:52:41 <Ray_work> so it's planned, right? We all move into the farm, supporting ourselves with techology and organic. 
06:53:34 <zpg> Heh, that's a bit non sequitur
06:54:08 <timlarson_> just because you want to eat well does not mean you don't like using technology
06:55:21 <tathi> ya, that's the plan.
06:55:28 <tathi> it'll probably be a year or two though :)
06:55:52 <Quartus> gotta find a farmer stupid enough to take on that many boarders. :)
06:56:16 <Quartus> Face it, most people couldn't farm their way out of a wet paper bag with a machete.
06:56:31 <tathi> yeah
06:56:38 <Ray_work> electric machete at that, that's me. :)
06:56:41 <Quartus> If you gave them a free farm, they'd have let everything die within a week.
06:57:14 <timlarson_> you just need a few who know what they are doing and a bunch of people who can help
06:57:20 <tathi> I have to say, it was cool working up at BVO.  I was one of about 10 interns, most of them had never had anything to do with farming.
06:57:45 <Quartus> timlarson, and you all work to feed the others out of the goodness of your heart?  Or did you plan to be one of those who just eats things, while others work?
06:59:15 <Ray_work> There has to be a positive use for all of this e coli spinnach we seem to be growing.
06:59:41 <Quartus> heh
06:59:51 <Quartus> isn't it being contaminated in processing, or something?
06:59:55 <tathi> yeah
07:00:01 <Ray_work> Forthers Spinnach, now with less E coli!
07:00:06 <timlarson_> different people do different useful things, not everybody has to farm, not everybody has to run a machine shop.
07:00:16 <Quartus> So in other words, farmers will do the farming.  Like it is now.
07:00:25 <tathi> apparently there's one company that does all the washing and bagging for most of the greens that get sold in the US
07:00:48 <Ray_work> Wait, that's not right. Immigrents do the farming, farmers do the owning.
07:01:28 <timlarson_> I heard the problem was in the ground water, and so asorbed right into the plant cells.
07:01:44 <Quartus> no, Ray_work, you're missing the beautiful dream of the New Utopia (tm), no borders, no immigrants.  Some magical kind of alternative.
07:01:46 <timlarson_> so it can't be simply washed off.
07:02:18 <Ray_work> Quartus: Welbutrin. 300+ mg should do nicely. 
07:02:59 <Quartus> Is that what the nutjobs are taking, the ones who think a country of 300 million people can be run like a hobby farm?
07:04:24 <timlarson_> which types of farms are mostly automated with huge machinery instead of using migrant workers?
07:04:38 <Quartus> huh? The automated ones.
07:06:10 <timlarson_> or rather, what types of crops need intense human labor versus being economically automatable?
07:06:48 <Quartus> all forms of farming need intense human labour. Farm-In-A-Box hasn't been invented yet.
07:06:53 <tathi> berries tend to be fragile enough that it's difficult to automate the harvest
07:06:56 <timlarson_> (really asking, "do *many* people really *have* to farm to feed everyone?")
07:07:19 <Ray_work> Cool, just sold a pallet jack to the local electric concern. What did I miss, just start repeating eveything cuz I can't be bothered to look into the log, okay. :) 
07:07:48 <zpg> might i point at here that "berries tend to be fragile enough that it's difficult to automate the harvest" is actually hysterically amusing.
07:07:58 <zpg> a most unexpected sentence, brilliant stuff.
07:08:00 <timlarson_> just that if you eat berries you cause a lot of human labor ;)
07:08:32 <timlarson_> that's the main thing you missed  Ray_work 
07:08:43 <zpg> *out
07:08:58 <tathi> timlarson_: on a small scale, I've heard that one person can intensively farm about a one acre market garden, and that you can grow vegetables for about 100 people in that much space
07:09:47 <Quartus> one person who knows how to farm, and isn't affected by bad weather, illness, blight, or other misfortune.
07:10:09 <timlarson_> so even factoring in the other things that are also eaten, the food producers can be a small percentage of the population.
07:10:17 <Quartus> As they are now.
07:10:22 <timlarson_> yup
07:11:02 <Quartus> Keep working at it; you'll want to re-invent a medium of exchange (I suggest 'money' as a good name), a transportation system ('roads' and 'vehicles'), consider the 'fuel' situation, and so on.  Branches out from there. 
07:11:10 <tathi> lol
07:11:58 <timlarson_> looks like you have things well under control, lol :)
07:12:05 <zpg> heh
07:12:17 <Ray_work> It's like it's all been done before, but by idiots.
07:12:20 <Quartus> I'm certainly read for the 'hey, man, we should all just go back to the farm, man' conversation.
07:12:59 <Ray_work> Hehe, I hear my father-in-law, worried that we are heading back to horse and buggy days.
07:13:14 <Quartus> but I'm sure all the complications will just work themselves out somehow, man, coz we'd be just so in touch with the Mother Earth.  Far out.
07:13:24 <zpg> Peace.
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07:19:24 <Ray_work> Like, Oh wow man. 
07:19:41 <Ray_work> Hey, y'all, Wish my wife a happy anniversary! :)
07:19:56 <Quartus> Is it just hers, or yours too?
07:20:54 <Ray_work> Happy anniversary, Honey! I shocked you stayed with my dumb ass this long, which doesn't speak very highly for you but still... Cool that ya did. ( you know i'm just trying to be cool in front of the guys ) 
07:21:27 <Quartus> uh oh, based on that 'dumb ass' comment from Ray, we should be sending Get Well Soon wishes instead :)
07:21:45 <Ray_work> hehe ;)
07:22:08 <Quartus> Happy anniversay, Ray + Nan :)
07:22:30 <Ray_work> Thank you, Neal. :0
07:22:36 <Quartus> What is this one? Paper, tin, gold, diamonds?
07:22:38 <timlarson_> happy anniversary :)
07:22:52 <Ray_work> 18 years married, 19 years together ( last sept 1st)
07:23:01 <Ray_work> Thanks Tim.
07:23:23 <Ray_work> Quartus: I must Wikipedia that one, cuz i'm not expected to know, right?
07:23:45 <Quartus> I don't know, I'll tell you that.
07:27:00 <zpg> Happy Anniversary!
07:29:58 <nanstm> thanks Quartus not a get well   a sympaty thoght 
07:30:29 <Quartus> heh
07:30:41 <nanstm> ")
07:30:43 <nanstm> ")
07:31:16 <nanstm> still  lvs him though
07:31:28 <Quartus> That's good :)
07:31:53 <nanstm> yeah it's all good
07:33:23 <Ray_work> hmm, wikipedia has each year till 15 then skips 16, has 17 then skips to 20 then every 5 after that... so, honey, ya aint getting anything due to wikipedia! :)
07:33:54 <nanstm> oh gee thanks lol
07:34:14 <Ray_work> I'll give you another option on another 18, but that's my limit.
07:34:28 <nanstm> ok
07:36:47 <Ray_work> hmm, last year was turquoise, I don't remember getting you turquoise. 
07:37:06 <Ray_work> 20 is China, so start saving for the trip! 
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07:38:55 <Ray_work> 20 could also be procelain. Maybe we'll redo the bathroom?
07:39:07 <Ray_work> pocelain even.
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07:39:15 <Ray_work> not doh! porcelain!
07:40:55 <Ray_work> Oh cool honey, I just figured out ( took 20 years but there ya go) that we got together a week before my birthday and married a week before yours. I guess we didn't want a lot of gifts then, right?
07:41:25 <nanstm> really
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07:57:25 <Ray_work> yikes got a little b z here.
07:59:14 * zpg whistles nonchalantly
08:01:35 <Ray_work> Nonchalantly, that's an old standard, no?
08:02:19 <Ray_work> Like "As Time Goes By".
08:03:29 <Ray_work> You must remember this, a kiss is butter kiss, ( what's a butter kiss? ) a lie is just a lie. The fundamental things apply as time goes by....
08:03:50 * Ray_work seranades Nan.
08:04:18 <Ray_work> And when two lovers swoon, they soon say I love you on that you can rely. 
08:04:33 <Ray_work> ( i think that's right)
08:04:48 * Ray_work gets a clue and looks it up.
08:04:53 <nanstm> ")
08:05:04 <nanstm> :)
08:05:07 <Ray_work> :)
08:05:22 <Ray_work> I don't know how to do emoticon kisses :(
08:06:19 <Ray_work> http://www.lyrics007.com/Frank%20Sinatra%20Lyrics/As%20Time%20Goes%20By%20Lyrics.html  there it is honey.
08:06:42 <Ray_work> Ya I totally boned it.
08:08:38 <Ray_work> That and "Little boxes on the hill side little boxes made of ticky-tacky" That's my current -Won't Leave My Brain- song.
08:10:30 <Ray_work> but this weekend it was Tracy Chapman, "Give me one reason to stay here, and I'll turn my back around". 
08:10:53 <Ray_work> arn't ya all glad you know that now?
08:11:31 <Ray_work> Turns out that last one is really easy to play, I'll have to learn it.
08:11:56 <Quartus> Sounds like the least romantic song possible.
08:13:46 <Ray_work> It does doesn't it. Must have been a Freudian.
08:14:04 <nanstm> Ray_work what show is that ticky-tack song from?
08:14:11 <Ray_work> Weeds.
08:14:17 <Quartus> It's much older than that though.
08:14:37 <Ray_work> Sure, it's an old protest song, far as I can tell.
08:14:40 <nanstm> Ray_work oh by the way gee thanks now i got that damn song stuck in my head
08:14:56 <Ray_work> My evil plan is starting to work nicely!
08:15:03 <nanstm> lol
08:15:39 * Ray_work rubbing hands together like Arkwright.
08:15:48 <nanstm> lol
08:16:16 <Ray_work> I love you de-de-de -dearest!
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08:20:36 <zpg> tathi evidently thought you were talking to him, Ray.
08:20:52 <Ray_work> hehe
08:21:06 <Ray_work> him too, heck i've got lots of love to go around.
08:21:27 <zpg> i'm telling you now, i have a cold.
08:21:34 <zpg> and an ocean.
08:21:37 <zpg> in my defense.
08:22:04 <Ray_work> :) 
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11:28:31 <Quartus_> hey
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15:12:07 <I440r> ok, the #forth user count seems to have increased again lol
15:12:38 <earth|> as it should because forth is a good language
15:14:39 <I440r> :)
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20:01:05 <Quartus> hey all
20:01:07 <Quartus> what's up?
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20:15:52 <nighty_> lo
20:16:01 <nighty_> Quartus: feeling lonely ? :)
20:16:02 <Quartus> Hi nighty_, how are things?
20:16:06 <Quartus> Just checking in.
20:16:13 <Quartus> Taking a break.
20:16:16 <nighty_> Quartus: I'm so busy :)
20:16:24 <Quartus> Me too.
20:16:28 <nighty_> Quartus: cool
20:16:34 <nighty_> Quartus: you got new contracts ? 
20:16:45 <nighty_> Quartus: what are you working on ? 
20:17:00 <Quartus> Couple of things on the go, customer-related, and I'm building a couple of props for sale as well.
20:17:13 <nighty_> sales of software ? 
20:17:35 <Quartus> Yes, product is selling; always a bit of a spike near Christmas.
20:17:45 <nighty_> oh nice :)
20:18:00 <nighty_> Quartus: I haven't given up on the G2 project
20:18:06 <nighty_> Quartus: but we are so busy 
20:18:14 <Quartus> That's good news, at any rate.
20:18:21 <nighty_> Quartus: I am drawning in Electronic Design right now
20:18:42 <Quartus> Fun?
20:18:50 <nighty_> Quartus: Well lots of things to learn 
20:18:54 <nighty_> Quartus: so yes
20:19:00 <Quartus> :) Good deal.
20:19:17 <nighty_> Quartus: My company is also paying for University courses next year
20:19:26 <Quartus> That's a plus.
20:19:28 <nighty_> Quartus: in Digital Electronics
20:19:36 <Quartus> I'm sure you'll enjoy that.
20:19:46 <nighty_> Quartus: back to school :)
20:19:54 <Quartus> Easy stuff.
20:20:01 <nighty_> Quartus: Easy ? 
20:20:12 <Quartus> Sure, they teach it to kids, don't they? :)
20:20:24 <nighty_> Quartus: maybe
20:20:42 <nighty_> Quartus: Kids are more clever than me though :)
20:20:51 <Quartus> I'm sure you'll muddle through.
20:21:34 <nighty_> I was trying to find some books on Forth 
20:21:45 <nighty_> but it seems everything is a little old
20:21:52 <nighty_> maybe that does not matter
20:22:10 <Quartus> New stuff includes Pelc's book online, the revised Thinking Forth, and the updated Starting Forth, plus the two books Forth.com produce.
20:22:17 <nighty_> I attempted to look at Chuck Moore's video 
20:22:31 <nighty_> very bad quality 
20:22:37 <nighty_> both for the video and the sound
20:22:41 <nighty_> too bad
20:22:47 <nighty_> Pelc ? 
20:23:39 <Quartus> Stephen Pelc.  www.mpeforth.com
20:24:22 <nighty_> Do they have like SwiftForth for Xscale (ARMv5) processors ? 
20:24:41 <nighty_> or any other forth for Xscale 
20:25:05 <nighty_> something that has a TCP/IP stack would be fun 
20:25:07 <Quartus> I know he has ARM stuff, but I haven't looked at the details recently.
20:26:28 <nighty_> Forth AVR Stamp
20:26:29 <nighty_> A professional grade development system with the MPE AVR Forth Stamp compiler, assembler, disassembler, SPI downloader and AVR Flash development board using an 8MHz Atmel AT90S8515 AVR CPU for only £99 (US$ 145, Euro 163). Additional boards are available for production use. 
20:26:37 <nighty_> Excellent I have an AVR Butterly
20:26:40 <Quartus> Sounds pretty good.
20:28:11 <nighty_> USB ARM Stamp
20:28:15 <nighty_> what is this for ?
20:28:21 <nighty_> I don't understand the purpose 
20:28:29 <nighty_> it is like a PIC ? 
20:28:37 <nighty_> but with an ARM ? 
20:28:46 <Quartus> Doesn't sounds like a PIC.  A USB-interfaced ARM stamp, I guess.
20:28:48 <nighty_> instead of the wimpy PIC 
20:29:10 <Quartus> I know Pelc has good customer service, do write him.
20:30:11 <nighty_> Yes I will
20:30:33 <nighty_> I am trying to find something with a TCP/IP stack accessible from Forth 
20:30:43 <nighty_> and 802.11 stack 
20:30:48 <Quartus> Forth.com, maybe.
20:34:38 <nighty_> uhmm
20:34:41 <nighty_> only ARM7
20:34:44 <nighty_> it seems
20:34:53 <nighty_> I was looking at ARM9 at least
20:35:14 <nighty_> and need an ethernet , wifi and tcp/ip and 802.11
20:35:26 <nighty_> swiftOS seems cool
20:35:35 <nighty_> why don't you do something like this ? 
20:36:01 <nighty_> you could use off the shelf board (ARM9) cheap boards
20:36:34 <nighty_> not your cup of tea ? 
20:40:37 <nighty_> There's no ARM assembler available yet, but one is in the works. This will allow for the crafting of PNO objects.
20:40:43 <nighty_> Ah ah 
20:40:45 <nighty_> interesting
20:45:18 <Quartus> sorry, got called away.
20:45:28 <Quartus> Yes, there's an ARM assembler for Quartus Forth.
20:45:48 <Quartus> Ships with it.
20:50:35 <nighty_> but no forth TCP/IP stack ? 
20:50:45 <nighty_> or 802.11 
20:50:54 <Quartus> The Palm OS networking library (and wifi, on devices supporting it) is accessible.
20:51:03 <nighty_> on Palm 
20:51:06 <Quartus> Yes.
20:51:21 <nighty_> I am talking more about embedded type boards
20:51:30 <nighty_> like Avila Gateworks board
20:51:37 <Quartus> The line about PNOs you quoted is specific to Quartus Forth.
20:51:48 <Quartus> PNOs are Palm ARM objects.
20:52:26 <nighty_> oh I see
20:53:28 <nighty_> do you have Forth Handbook in PDF format ? 
20:53:42 <Quartus> It comes with the SwiftForth free evaluation version.
20:54:12 <Quartus> Think it's for on-screen viewing only.
20:59:54 <nighty_> uhmmm
21:00:05 <nighty_> too bad it is some kind of self extracting archive
21:00:16 <nighty_> and I have no windows :)
21:00:31 <Quartus> SwiftForth is a windows app. You may be able to extract it with a zip tool.
21:00:48 <nighty_> I tried
21:00:54 <nighty_> no luck 
21:00:55 <Quartus> right, just tried myself. No go.
21:01:05 <nighty_> MZP 
21:01:12 <nighty_> I wonder what this is 
21:01:21 <Quartus> MZ is an EXE. The P, I have no idea.
21:01:46 <Quartus> No recollection, at any rate.
21:01:53 <nighty_> :)
21:01:57 <Quartus> Well, you don't have Windows because you find it distasteful, isn't that right?
21:01:58 <nighty_> so no Handbook 
21:02:18 <nighty_> I do not like MS Windows
21:02:19 <nighty_> yes
21:02:29 <nighty_> personnal taste
21:02:43 <Quartus> So you'll find yourself handicapped if you want to examine Windows products; consequence of your embargo.
21:02:50 <nighty_> Yes
21:02:57 --- join: user_ (i=user@S0106000fb09cff56.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth
21:03:09 <Quartus> Hi user_.
21:03:18 <nighty_> that's ok because I do not want to evaluate any windows program
21:03:18 <user_> Hello.
21:03:28 --- nick: user_ -> user__
21:03:35 --- nick: user__ -> user___
21:04:11 <nighty_> Quartus: but If I really want to I could run WINE I guess
21:04:18 <Quartus> Perhaps that would work.
21:05:43 <nighty_> oh well
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21:12:50 <Quartus> are you a forth user, user___?
21:16:19 <user___> Not really.  More of an observer.  
21:16:40 <Quartus> Ok. Saw you were in #palm, so I thought I'd ask.
21:16:54 * user___ aka Anbidian
21:17:28 <Quartus> ah ok. Hey.
21:17:40 <user___> How's everything on your end?
21:17:47 <Quartus> Ticking along. What's new with you?
21:17:54 <user___> Dec. a slow month for Quartus Forth?
21:18:06 <Quartus> Not slow, there's always an uptick near Christmas.
21:18:13 <Quartus> Summer is slower.
21:18:25 <user___> Got a new job as a youth crisis intervention worker.  Ah, I see, my guess was wrong.  That's good for you then.
21:18:41 <Quartus> Sounds like hard work.
21:19:27 <user___> It can be.  Though programming to me would be hard ;) 
21:19:41 <Quartus> :)
21:20:35 <user___> Your choice of going with Palm seems to have worked out since they are so slow in moving from OS5 -- as opposed to constant OS upgrades that would force you to constantly upgrade your product.
21:20:52 <Quartus> There's new life in OS5, too -- Palm licensed it back.  
21:21:14 <user___> I saw what you are referring to, I think, if you are referring to the perpetual Garnet license.  
21:21:25 <Quartus> Yes, that's OS5.4.
21:21:50 <user___> less than 5.4 does not equal Garnet?
21:22:19 <Quartus> Certainly less than 5 isn't Garnet.  I don't recall the name being associated with the earliest 5.x product.
21:22:55 <Quartus> At any rate, Quartus Forth runs all the way down to OS3, and generates executables for even OS1.0.
21:23:22 <Quartus> And it works under the unreleased Cobalt, so it's ready to adjust to whatever comes along.
21:23:34 <user___> *nods* And Access announced they won't be releasing ALP by the end of the year as originally planned.  Though when they do release it (Mid-2007?) you will have a choice to make I take it, and if it's based on linux then there might already be a lot of development tools available making it harder to compete.
21:24:05 <Quartus> user___, Quartus Forth should still run under it just fine, for producing 68k-compatible binaries (for backward compatibility).  So we'll see how it goes.
21:25:01 <user___> As long as their emulator is comptentent, but users will probably want access to write native apps as they wanted to for OS5 instead of just accepting the previous Quartus Forth version?
21:25:55 <Quartus> Quartus Forth 2.0.1 is an OS5 version.  In fact there is no reasonable road to writing ARM apps under OS5, Quartus Forth notwithstanding; there are only PNOs and certain unsupported hacks. 
21:26:15 <Quartus> If a developer wants to write an app that will run under OS5, and also under OS4 and OS3 (etc.), he must create a 68k-binary.
21:26:41 <Quartus> That binary can certainly be optimized to use PNOs (under OS5), or other native code, for platforms that support it.
21:27:43 <user___> I may be confused then, but I remember when OS5 came out many users on your message board were requesting an new upgrade to Quartus Forth, which you eventually released -- wouldn't the same thing happen with ALP?
21:28:17 <Quartus> What users wanted was access to the new OS5 API calls; the core of the Quartus Forth compiler was largely unchanged.
21:28:38 <Quartus> With ALP, it should also run under emulation, as it does under OS5.
21:28:53 <Quartus> It's all talk, though, until the product is available for testing.
21:29:08 <user___> Ah, thank you, I see now.  But wouldn't ALP allow access to the underlying linux OS somehow, or is that a wrong guess on my part?  
21:29:10 <user___> Of course.
21:29:24 <Quartus> Yes, I'm sure there will be tools for creating ALP-only binaries.
21:29:39 <Quartus> Can't be certain of that, but I strongly suspect it.
21:30:47 <Quartus> When I updated for OS5, I took the time to add the 6200+ named constants and structures, and also to make sure it ran under Cobalt, so it's very 'well-behaved' as Palm puts it.
21:30:54 <Quartus> It should be fine under ALP.  I look forward to testing it.
21:31:07 <user___> 6200 
21:31:14 <user___> wow... that's dedication
21:31:38 <Quartus> Got them compressed down to 50K, to boot :)
21:32:17 <user___> I hope there was some automated way for you to add those named constant and structures so you weren't doing it manually?
21:32:48 <Quartus> A hybrid approach, parsing the header files and then going through it to make sure nothing was missed.
21:33:33 <user___> Do you know how many registered Quartus Forth users there are about?
21:33:49 <nighty_> Millions :)
21:33:56 <Quartus> I wish.  It's in the thousands, though.
21:34:14 <nighty_> not bad
21:34:30 <user___> lol
21:34:33 <Quartus> Bill Gates isn't running scared yet.
21:35:01 <user___> hey, considering how generally unknown Forth is, and that you are targetting only a subset of programmers (Palm Developers), that sounds really good to me
21:35:22 <Quartus> Yes, it's gone pretty well considering.
21:37:17 <Quartus> From the downloads, there are several hundred thousand evaluation copies out there.
21:37:17 <user___> too bad cell phones didn't have a more standardized OS -- that would be an intersting limited environment to program for... an environment I'm guessing Forth could do wlel in
21:37:35 <Quartus> sadly many phones are Java-based.  There are Java Forths, but you can imagine not very good ones.
21:38:24 <user___> oh yeah, you'd know the phone market better than I you used to (still do?) work with blackberries 
21:38:39 <Quartus> I do. Blackberries are Java-based, too.
21:38:41 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
21:38:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava
21:38:58 <slava> Quartus: the latest:
21:38:59 <slava>    What to do when you have power over your nieghbor ?
21:38:59 <slava>       eat his lunch !!!
21:39:00 <slava>  The buy him another lunch with his taxes, and charge him again .. 
21:39:06 <Quartus> slava, "Its easy to create a assm if you dont think of clever methods , just
21:39:06 <Quartus> >  get it done in 300 Kbytes"
21:39:40 <user___> Quartus: do you know Java well?
21:39:46 <slava> i do
21:40:01 <user___> sjava
21:40:02 <Quartus> user___, I use it only when I have to, so I won't claim any special expertise.
21:40:30 <user___> *nods* doesn't sound like you're that fond of it ;)
21:40:36 <Quartus> I think it's an abomination.
21:41:04 <user___> no sugar coating of the truth from you :p
21:41:12 <JasonWoof> yay understatement :)
21:41:16 <Quartus> heh
21:41:47 <Quartus> I think it's almost singlehandedly set the programming industry back ten years or more.
21:42:07 <slava> well, at least it got less people using c++ and cobol
21:42:35 <Quartus> I'm not sure C++ is worse, entirely.
21:42:39 <slava> and it killed off vb6
21:42:45 <Quartus> And COBOL is a more practical and useful skill.
21:42:49 <slava> no it isn't.
21:42:53 <Quartus> C# killed off VB, I think.
21:43:01 <Quartus> And I don't think that's a trade-up either.
21:43:36 <Quartus> Depending on the market segment, COBOL is still in considerable demand.
21:43:51 <slava> java is in a lot more demand, and face it, no matter how bad java sucks, it is far better than cobol.
21:44:13 <Quartus> I'm not saying COBOL is a sophisticated or interesting programming language, but it's solid work and the pay isn't bad.
21:44:33 <Quartus> And you're less likely to be outsourced.
21:45:09 <slava> actually, in some indian colleges, i hear they're teaching cobol as the first language
21:45:46 <Quartus> In the hopes of getting the legacy business, perhaps.  But the Sox-Orbanes and other restrictions prevent many systems from being networked offshore, so the access is strictly local.
21:45:51 <Quartus> Those are the machines with the COBOL code.
21:46:28 <Quartus> Anyway werty is going to make everything obsolete any day now.
21:46:42 <slava> no doubt
21:47:03 <slava> it only takes a few days to develop this right? and he's starting any minute now.
21:47:12 <Quartus> With a 300K assembler, I think.
21:47:19 <slava> how obtuse
21:47:22 <Quartus> That's one big meatball.
21:47:28 <nighty_> good night
21:47:33 <Quartus> goodnight
21:47:35 <slava> my assembler is 417 lines
21:47:44 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection)
21:48:11 <Quartus> The Gforth 386 one is 598 lines, 20K.
21:48:20 <slava> mine has SSE2
21:48:30 <slava> and it can generate x86 as well as x86-64 code
21:48:34 <Quartus> Keen.
21:48:55 <slava> its not complete though. i only have a small handful of x87 instructions, for instance.
21:49:11 <slava> and i haven't had use for integer MMX or SSE yet. only double precision SSE
21:49:34 <Quartus> That's ok, it's mostly for your own use, right?
21:49:41 <slava> i'd just use x87 if it wasn't cripped on pentium 4's.
21:50:02 <slava> factor can still do floating point on < pentium4, but it requires calls into C.
21:50:29 <Quartus> The Demon C.
21:50:55 <slava> frankly, i don't care about x86 enough to write separate routines to achieve full performance on chips released < 2002
21:51:14 <slava> powerpc floating point is sane and factor does native floating point on all powerpc's with an fpu.
21:52:04 <Quartus> That's one luxury of developing a non-commercial system, you can turn a deaf ear on customer demands, should they arise :)
21:52:34 <slava> anyway i don't think the performance hit on < pentium4 is that bad. its just like the setup you have in an ITC forth, where every math operation is a subroutine call into native code
21:52:40 <slava> every floating point
21:52:59 <Quartus> Every one?
21:53:33 <slava> if a given compiler backend does not provide inline intrinsics for a math primitive, a call to C is assembled
21:53:40 <Quartus> Ah ok.
21:53:51 <slava> inline intrinsics use registers to pass values instead of the stack, and such
21:53:58 <Quartus> Right.
21:54:05 <slava> so if you have a series of primitives in a row, they optimize to a single basic block
21:54:16 <slava> but not every backend provides a full set of intrinsics. for some of them, there's no win
21:54:31 <Quartus> I wonder what werty would do.
21:54:55 <slava> he would always compile all code, and do away with an interpreter and C runtime :)
21:55:06 <slava> but i want to make porting to new cpus, and debugging the compiler itself, easy.
21:55:33 <Quartus> he'd eliminate the stack, too, somehow, in some magical land-of-chocolate way.
21:55:50 <slava> well, C doesn't expose a data stack
21:55:56 <slava> he would re-implement C and Linux and W XP :)
21:56:03 <Quartus> yes, but werty doesn't want to hide it, he doesn't need it; he's a ninja.
21:56:25 <slava> have you ever done multithreaded programming?
21:56:30 <Quartus> no call/return for him; he just jumps from one routine to the next.
21:56:38 <Quartus> Yes, I have done a little.
21:56:50 <Quartus> Nothing recent.
21:57:42 <slava> he stores the return address in the instruction stream, at the location of the subroutine call; re-entrancy is obtuse
21:57:59 <Quartus> only for luddites?
21:58:08 <slava> actually, if a compiler could do global dataflow analysis and determine which words are never re-entrant, could it optimize anything this way?
21:58:14 <slava> werty might be on to something
21:58:20 <Quartus> crack, I think it is.
21:58:26 <slava> yes
21:58:44 <Quartus> and the weed.
21:58:50 <Quartus> Kids these days.
21:59:19 <slava> it looks far worse than what weed would do
21:59:25 <Quartus> Jimson weed.
21:59:28 <slava> how about years of being hit on the head with a metal spoon?
21:59:49 <Quartus> Actually the jimson weed'd do it.
21:59:59 <slava> heh
22:00:51 <Quartus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimsonweed
22:01:12 <slava> yes, i know what it is.
22:01:20 <Quartus> There might be onlookers. :)
22:03:05 <JasonWoof> "Zombie's Cucumber" what a great name!
22:03:31 <Quartus> So long as it's not Rob Zombie's cucumber.
22:07:33 <user___> It's a very potent deliriant; I feel sorry for those who try to use it as a cheap/legal high (heavy body load to it).  
22:07:51 <Quartus> I've heard a couple of anecdotal horror stories about it.
22:08:48 <user___> *nods* sounds reasonable -- there are non-anecdotal horror stories about it too.  Unlike most recreationally used hallucinogens the Datura's will produce true hallucinations.  
22:09:26 <slava> Quartus: "Free FORTH Tutorial", http://programming.reddit.com/
22:10:47 <Quartus> you think it needs a wider audience? :)
22:11:26 <Quartus> what the devil does this mean? " I.E. I Nix'd the coded , 12 byte I.P. from FigForth ** ."
22:11:28 <slava> most definitely
22:11:44 <Quartus> FigForth! He's certainly riding the trailing edge.
22:12:22 <user___> haha.  You tell them.  I was disappointed :|
22:13:04 <Quartus> "programmers cant see any Vocabs ,   it would belabor ."
22:14:26 <user___> how did that ever make it onto Reddit
22:14:31 <Quartus> Slava put it there.
22:14:38 <slava> vote it up!
22:14:39 <Quartus> I think it may be a random word generator.
22:15:45 <user___> slava, you want that article to be representative of a Forth tutorial?
22:15:56 <Quartus> yes, that's a worry.
22:16:20 <slava> user___: no, i'm simply convinced many people vote stories up (or down) without reading them, and i think certain combinations of words in the title guarantee a top 10 spot regardless of content
22:16:48 <user___> ok, you're making sense to me now.  I went to vote it up but it wanted to me register >:|
23:51:57 --- quit: user___ ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.12.11