00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.11.24 00:41:15 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:51:37 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:50:15 --- quit: Razor-X (Remote closed the connection) 01:51:36 --- join: Razor-X (n=user@user-11faaoj.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #forth 02:06:37 --- join: I440r (i=mark4@cpe-67-11-227-252.satx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 02:07:01 playing poker tourny online. out of 3100 players i came in 50th 02:07:10 didnt cost me any money to join 02:07:15 won $6 lol 02:07:27 first place was $1500 04:22:52 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 04:27:59 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:29:04 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:37:56 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 05:29:59 good morning all 05:36:09 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 05:52:06 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 05:56:14 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:00:18 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 06:03:45 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 06:05:16 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:06:15 Friday! Good morning. 06:12:04 --- join: vatic_ (n=chatzill@146.96.186.172) joined #forth 06:12:20 Friday! Good morning. 06:18:40 --- quit: vatic (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:26:55 --- join: vatic__ (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:26:59 --- nick: vatic__ -> vatic 06:35:32 --- quit: vatic_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:30:31 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 08:31:53 --- join: ravenEx (i=ravenEx@239-154.vpn.aichyna.com) joined #forth 09:04:05 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54897BB6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:09:00 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 09:11:42 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:20:27 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 09:20:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 09:25:47 hi Quartus 09:26:03 hey 09:26:09 Quartus are you going to have exercises in you book? 09:26:23 yes. 09:27:52 if you are can you put the answers in the back of the book and please don't have someone try to figure something out with code that wasn't touched on in that chapter that one had just finished 09:28:17 indeed. 09:28:47 thanks I have seen books that do that and it drives me nutts 09:29:33 plus not having something in the back of the book to check your work is crazy 09:30:59 exercises should have input and output examples so one can form an algorithm to satisfy the output 10:37:04 --- join: Shine (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-84-44-156-62.netcologne.de) joined #forth 10:55:35 --- join: Snoopy42_ (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-170-040.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:02:47 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:03:05 --- nick: Snoopy42_ -> Snoopy42 11:25:27 Practical Common Lisp is one of those books that uses stuff not taught. 11:31:36 just got MAXII CPLD dev kit ordered 11:56:34 Razor-X: that is right? 11:57:00 Razor-X: that is right 12:16:17 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:24:48 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 12:30:55 That is left. 12:48:43 http://www.shockfamily.net/cedric/fflib.html <-- An informative piece of documentation regarding fflib.fs. 12:53:28 jackokring: why a CPLD? The Spartan3E starter kit, which sits on my table, has much more features and a bigger FPGA for the same price: http://tinyurl.com/rfbc9 12:55:45 end use will be small and the extra cost will not be efficient 12:56:09 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 12:56:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 12:56:24 hi slava 12:56:27 hi 12:56:38 Quartus: newforth opsys has no apps, everything is builtin 12:56:44 did you see my message about opengl 12:56:54 no, i didn't 12:57:00 do other opengl applications work? 12:57:08 big fpga not needed, eeprom cpld prefered, i think $13.50 each, spartan 3E are ? along with ROM? 12:57:12 yes 12:57:34 erider: which did you test? 12:57:49 #ubuntu say that I was ok and they didn't understand that error message 12:58:00 shine: so thats why i chose it 12:58:27 but 12:58:28 Jackokring: yes, the Spartan3E needs external flash, so for small applications the MAXII could be better 12:58:33 * erider is going to take a nap 12:59:19 1270 LUTs is fine 13:00:28 I've been reading a bit about opsys on usenet. What is it? 13:00:34 the smallest Spartan3E costs $11.50, but I think it has less LUTs than the $13.50 MAXII 13:00:38 Hey slava :) 13:00:52 Quartus: what's up, luddite? 13:00:58 i've been THINKing 13:01:01 OPSYS! THINK!!! 13:01:20 * Razor-X does not understand the inside jokes. 13:01:28 do you read comp.lang.forth? 13:01:35 Off and on. 13:01:41 the joke is that we're quoting "werty" 13:02:06 Ah. 13:02:25 An FPGA for $13.50 ? 13:02:34 no fromaltera 13:03:19 unless they do a 256 or 512 lut i havent seen 13:05:07 they can be as cheap as $6: http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll/showfilter?lookup=1,30,3074 But in 100 LEs you can integrate at most e.g. a I2C slave with some IO and then it is full 13:05:20 and a two cycle 16 bit mem access will make for easy interface to 8 bit ram rom parts, especially as more than 40% free area left to play with 13:06:32 must go to shop 13:06:38 back in 30 13:09:17 * Ray_work has done well to keep from searching the c.l.f for werty quotes. It's not worth it just to be on the 'inside'. :) 13:09:53 with a small Forth implementation for the MAXII (or the similar CoolRunner part from Xilinx), like my vmForth, and some external flash and RAM, you could built a very powerful and flexible system 13:10:12 Ray_work: So whats the 'gain" from your old idea Forth ? 13:10:17 Do you realize how exciting it is to create apps in a perfect OpSys ? 13:12:30 has anyone seen werty's "NewForth"? 13:12:32 No-op Pain, no-op gain! :) 13:14:45 yikes, with my love for colorForth, does that make me the werty of #forth?!?!?!? 13:14:55 Hi werty. 13:14:59 Hey and nobody answered my question. 13:15:06 OH! I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT COLORFORTH. 13:15:11 Are we WorldFIG? 13:15:13 That shouting was more for my benefit. 13:15:17 :) 13:15:18 hehe 13:15:24 So uh... how is it? 13:15:34 How different from ANS Forth and other such stuff? 13:15:45 And why don't people call the standard ANSI Forth but instead ANS Forth? 13:15:47 Depends on who you ask and what you expect from it's current condition. 13:16:02 It works on Pentium processors now, right? 13:16:24 Fourthers are used to DROPing a vowel, Vanna White. 13:16:32 yes Razor-X. 13:17:29 What sort of stuff has been written for colorForth so far? 13:17:57 Razor-X: i've been successful in getting the cF to run on pentium 1-II-III and most recently my Compaq/HP pIV 13:18:16 The Standard is from the American National Standards Institute, so it's American National Standard Forth. Alternatively, ISO Forth. 13:18:20 there has been much work, and much work recently lost. 13:18:29 Why work lost? 13:18:39 He left it on top of the car and drove off. 13:18:58 Well, one of the most prolific colorforthers, left it on top of the car and .. what Quartus said. 13:19:16 crashed his machine and can't get up. 13:19:21 ......... 13:19:26 Faw down and go boom. 13:19:30 Wow. That's incredibly amusing :P 13:19:30 ya. 13:19:33 it is. 13:19:38 it's a crying shame 13:20:00 It's a low-down dirty shame. 13:20:03 much of Mark Slickers work can be found all over the web, but not his personal archives. 13:20:40 He did much of the stuff like Breshden (SP?) drawing... 13:21:07 Great. He re-invented line-drawing? Handy. I'd think you'd just ask the AGP graphics card to draw a line, wouldn't ya? 13:21:15 Since colorForth is hardware bound anyway? 13:21:21 sure, why not. 13:21:32 Mandlebrot... 13:21:55 he started to re-write the editor in cF bytecode... 13:22:01 when he crashed. 13:22:16 tho Howerd Oakford got alot farther along with that. 13:22:27 So did I for that matter. 13:23:05 Tim Neitz did a lot of communication stuff, along with a neat multi-tasker. 13:23:38 Tim actually uses colorforth in his business. Inventory control I thing. 13:23:42 think even. 13:25:05 Tim and Mark did some really cool work on the accept work when trying to convert the editor over to bytecode. I have several versions. Someday i'll post all that work for the Usee-um 13:25:49 Ray_work: to be the werty of #forth, you'd have to remove most of your brain first 13:26:06 I've written many things with it, byt I don't mention it because i'm not a scientist at the level of these men. 13:26:08 sent you a pm slava 13:26:32 Quartus: so why did you tell everyone! TO MAKE ME JEALOUS! :) 13:26:40 Pretty much. 13:33:32 slava: i'm the medicated Ray, well on my way. 13:33:48 i'm about to go medicate myself wiht some caffiene 13:34:08 :) 13:37:10 --- join: arvenEx (i=ravenEx@239-154.vpn.aichyna.com) joined #forth 13:37:10 --- quit: ravenEx (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:37:18 --- quit: arvenEx (Remote closed the connection) 13:37:43 The programming guide is pretty bare :P 13:37:49 I need a good name for a word that does under-plus twice, ( y1 x1 y2 x2 -- y3 x3 ) 13:37:55 oh at Colorforth.com? 13:38:05 No, at the quartus.net. 13:38:10 oh. 13:38:50 2u+ looks too much like 2 unsigned plus, no? 13:40:18 Razor-X: what are you looking at specifically? 13:41:43 quartus.net ? 13:42:17 Ray, what is y3? y1+y2? 13:42:34 http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ColorForth 13:42:37 Programmer Guide. 13:42:40 Oh ok. 13:42:47 That's on the user-maintained Wiki. 13:44:17 Quartus: yes. 13:44:52 : 2u+ rot + rot rot + swap ; I suppose. 13:44:56 so : ... rot + >r + r> ; and what is the purpose of the word? 13:45:19 vector addition? 13:45:35 so v+ maybe? 13:45:38 :) 13:45:53 good enough! thanks. 13:49:37 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:52:57 Razor-X: I guess you are correct. Programming guide ( which is at colorforth.com btw ) is pretty bare. But still, there is not much to know. The keyboard is toughest to grasp. Once you get that the rest if basically forth. 13:53:33 Albeit without things like, oh, character strings -- unless you can read huffman encoding directly. 13:53:47 I can! :) 13:53:57 Practice! :) 13:54:18 but Howerd has a really nice solution for character strings. 13:55:54 He has a block browser that reads the first few comments on a block, expecting that to be the name of the block and then builds a launch menu interactively. You add the block, title it, and the block "adds itself" to the menu. 13:57:20 Howerd also does some html with colorforth. 13:57:59 Other times, he ties his left hand to his right foot from behind, and then kicks over biker's motorcycles and tries to run away. 13:58:15 And yet he lives. :) 13:58:27 writing hello world in colorforth looks tricky: http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ColorForthHelloWorld 13:59:06 Oh yes. I did the oneliner nearer the bottom of the page. 13:59:22 Tricky. And it has to be converted into HTML just to display the trickiness. 13:59:45 But this is supposed to be 'good'. 14:00:03 Good that it's bizarrely hard to write the very simplest of programs in it, and good that it can't easily be shared or discussed on the web. 14:00:07 there are a couple little aps, one Josh Grams and I did, that converts colorforth bytecode to html effortlessly. 14:00:50 Quartus: what would you expect in such a minimal system? I say that it's still forth and if someone where to add ANS to it it would be an ANS forth. 14:01:13 Why would you build an ANS layer on top of it? You'd have more flexibility if you started with raw pentium assembler. 14:02:05 I don't think it's at all an exaggeration to say that colorForth is a more restrictive and limited environment than even a simple assembler for the same platform. 14:03:42 Personally, I would use an ANS forth if I needed one, not colorforth. But in it's defence, modern forth system creators are finding ideas in colorforth and using them in their systems. Not a total loss. 14:04:17 Mid-word exit isn't new. 14:05:04 Notice the Forth world isn't flocking to coloured editor-bound Forths, nor to Huffman-encoded strings. 14:06:00 factor doesn't have mid-word exit. 14:06:18 i think if you need mid-word exit your words are too long, and/or you're doing confusing control flow 14:06:59 I agree, in the general case. 14:08:09 Quartus: you argue with me and give me the impression that I consider colorForth the end-all be-all, and I don't. It's what it is. It's here. It's fun for some of us. 14:08:09 Mid word exit turns then into else. 14:10:12 yup 14:11:10 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@unaffiliated/ttuttle) joined #forth 14:11:24 Quartus: Hey. 14:11:32 Hey ttuttle. 14:11:38 Quartus: How's it going? 14:11:44 Not too badly. You? 14:11:51 Quartus: Pretty good. 14:12:17 Quartus: I discovered that the Google AdSense TOS allows some types of competitive ads, including affiliate links, so I've added Amazon links to my blog posts that review products. 14:12:32 Quartus: I'm betting nobody will *ever* click on them, in my entire life. 14:12:57 Probably a good bet. :) 14:13:37 Ray_work, I'm just providing counterpoint for the benefit of Razor-X, who might otherwise think colorForth is something more than a peculiar toy. 14:14:01 Quartus: But Amazon has no restriction on begging people to click on the links (unlike Google), since Amazon only pays you for what people purchase, and you're still driving customers to their site. 14:14:30 ttuttle, true. I don't think click-based revenue is going to pay for more than about a beer a month, but you can always hope. :) 14:14:57 Quartus: Hey, a beer's worth of cash would probably host my website for a year. ;-) (NearlyFreeSpeech.NET ftw!) 14:15:21 Quartus: Now I just need to get my hands on more stuff that I can write about, so I can make more posts. 14:15:30 then you're set! Just don't factor in the cost of your time at any point, and you can stay convinced that it's somehow in the black. :) 14:15:31 Quartus: I'm always surprised at how high I end up in google for certain things I write about. 14:15:41 Quartus: Hey, my time is worthless ;-) 14:15:44 Quartus: (For now.) 14:15:49 Unfortunate if true. 14:16:16 Well, it's not worthless, but I enjoy working on my web site. 14:18:44 I avoided ever hosting ads on my site, didn't seem worth the effort. The collaborative google search engine comes with google ads, of course. 14:19:47 Yeah. Actually, the only click I've gotten so far on my site was someone who searched using my search box and clicked an ad. 14:20:02 i make about 15$/month on ads :) 14:20:16 it almost pays for my 20$/month hosting 14:23:32 slava: Really? What content do you have? 14:23:46 the factor web site 14:23:57 ~200-300 hits a day 14:24:35 slava: Not bad. I get about 1/10 of that, but that's without any marketing efforts. (Well I'm slowing sneaking links to my reviews onto other relevant sites, like the Gentoo Wiki, since I reviewed my laptop and GPS and explained how to use them with Gentoo.) 14:25:07 slava: I used to get a higher number back when I hovered on Slashdot and scribbled blog posts about recent articles and posted links to them. It generated a decent amount of traffic, especially if I posted early. 14:26:54 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:28:44 And now you know why the people that actually do profit from these Google ads have sometimes hundreds of sites. 14:29:27 I suppose you could work on a site a day... update them every year on _it's_ day... 14:29:41 Ray_work: I would guess many of them just syndicate (or steal) others' content. 14:29:48 Ya. 14:30:06 Ray_work: I wonder how profitable it is to just buy a few choice domain names, put skeleton content and lots of ads on them, and then get them linked to from directory sites. 14:30:07 Well, there are ways around total plagurism. 14:30:22 Neat to test something like that. 14:31:17 Ray_work: I gotta think of a good domain name, and find a good ad program (AdSense doesn't allow you to advertise on parked domains, unless you've got a big enough portfolio to make it worth their while.) 14:40:02 Keep me in the loop. I'd be interested in how all that goes. 14:43:44 i hate those retarded parked domains with 10 ads and a useless 'search' box 14:44:56 slava: But I wonder if they're profitable ;-) 14:45:13 i guess, because of all the teenagers on the internet these days who click anything 14:45:27 slava: Probably. 14:48:01 --- join: marble (n=glass@cpc1-bolt6-0-0-cust18.manc.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 14:51:53 Little bit of a rush there at the end of the business day. 14:52:14 Murphy at work. Friday at 5 pm, you'll get a late customer. 14:54:03 For your edification: The plural of y'all is "all y'all". :) I thought that was cute when my daughter pointed that out. 14:54:51 In Chicago it's "yous guys". 14:56:27 My daughter also hit me with this one: "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." 15:07:41 gone home 15:07:48 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:09:07 Quartus: /me has an idea for a new website. 15:12:34 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 15:14:34 What idea? 15:17:15 --- quit: ttuttle ("leaving") 15:18:02 Hmm. 15:18:49 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 15:47:01 Razor-X: I just noticed something Quartus said, something that amounts to saving you from wasting your time and that colorForth is nothing but a toy. I say that it will remain that way unless people with Quartus' talent do something with it. I'm not nearly there yet. From what i've experianced in the past, people with Quartus' level of Forth tend to find it facinating for a few months, then come to similiar conclusions as Quartus. 15:50:03 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096751791.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 15:59:56 i think the phrases colour and embedded are sometimes too mutually distinct 16:02:11 What makes you think that? oh and what does that mean, please? :) 16:02:34 not many coloured embedded process controllers 16:02:54 leds seems to be the washing machine max 16:04:34 a lack of parsing words other than WORD freaks out many programmers 16:05:11 non algebraic notation looses anyone with a C or lower in maths 16:05:54 they also dont do a[idx++} auto increment tricks also 16:08:18 consider that an average programmer is the modern equivelent of a balance scale operator 16:09:19 :) 16:11:38 * Raystm2 not even an average programmer. :( But I can run the digital floor scale at work, in my defence. :) 16:11:51 i mean i think forth is great, but then i'm a slightly lazy genious with an erratic slope on the alternate solution 16:12:06 Arn't we all? :) 16:13:26 very well read though, and in the end the perfect OS will be something like i partially imagined. good boot time too ;) 16:15:14 and the system idle task will clock down 16:16:07 excluding the prefetch window ;) 16:17:42 i already under clock my machine 133 -> 100 16:19:49 i always buy good rockard 400MHz DDR tho 16:20:23 it's the 333 i get for free ;) 16:22:24 summer psychogeographic in london there on the bus route to docklands ;) 16:24:11 buy the way if you want to write yer own forth for http://indi.microfpga.com don't let the fact that i'm doing one stop you completing it before me! 16:26:11 i'll let someone else talk before i tell everyone to google the thornson inetial thruster 16:26:48 do you have an emulator for the chip/system ? 16:27:01 putting one up on the web might be a nice thing 16:27:03 has lego design and thornson inetial engine is better find 16:27:38 good for space with no mass loss ;) 16:28:52 sure would be nice, but cash is two week restrictive and about 40 quid max disposable on 'hobby' 16:29:35 i ain't no milionare company 16:29:47 --- quit: I440r () 16:29:57 two week restrictive = tight for the next two weeks ? 16:38:23 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 16:38:43 hello 16:45:25 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 16:50:01 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:21:00 --- quit: nighty__ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 17:22:04 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 17:38:11 where do you find forth addons 17:38:30 Second cabinet, third drawer down, toward the back. 17:39:51 lol 17:40:32 seriously the libraries where do you find them for instance ffilib 17:41:04 Find them? lib.fs ships with Gforth 0.6.2. 17:43:48 --- quit: marble (".") 17:52:10 found it 18:05:30 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 18:05:35 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-250-40.netcologne.de) joined #forth 18:05:49 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 18:15:58 --- join: crc (i=crc@ACA289D7.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 18:16:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 18:57:07 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:34:49 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E072D6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:43:13 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:21:26 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 22:47:57 --- part: slava left #forth 23:00:46 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.11.24