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04:12:52 <nighty__> morning
04:13:07 <Quartus> Hey
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06:09:28 <erider> good morning its raining cats and dogs here :(
06:13:47 <erider> slava_: ping 
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06:19:29 <Ray_work> Top o' the mornin' to ya!
06:29:51 <erider> good morning its raining cats and dogs here :(
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06:43:15 <Ray_work> Good morning slava.
06:43:28 <Ray_work> erider, wish it was here. We could use it.
06:43:29 <erider> slava_: ping 
06:43:58 <erider> its bad Ray_work
06:44:18 <erider> it have been raining non-stop for two days now 
06:45:03 <Ray_work> Yikes. Where are you? Seatle?
06:46:50 <erider> North Carolina atm 
06:47:28 <erider> but we need to drive back up to Maryland for turkey Day 
06:50:16 <slava> erider: pong
06:51:19 <erider> hi slava I asked in #ubuntu and they say that I should have opengl on my system already 
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16:47:51 <twobitsprite> hello
16:49:04 <twobitsprite> would you all say forth code would be easy to generate and manipulate programatically?
16:52:44 <twobitsprite> I'm asking because I am aiming to play with some genetic programming models, and I need a language which can be easily generated and manipulated, and I first looked into PostScript, but Forth seems promising too...
16:52:46 <twobitsprite> any thoughts?
16:56:37 <twobitsprite> hmm... well its obviously not a very popular subject of conversation... :P
16:58:11 <erider> twobitsprite: hi
17:00:09 <twobitsprite> erider: hey :)
17:02:05 <twobitsprite> erider: what implementation of forth for x86/Windows do you recommend for learning?
17:04:05 <erider> I'm trying to learn it myself 
17:04:23 <Raystm2-> twobitsprite: :)  you picked the night before a holiday to ask your questions. Many of us may be traveling.
17:04:38 --- nick: Raystm2- -> Raystm2
17:06:10 <Raystm2> Genetic programming model?
17:06:24 <erider> hi Raystm2
17:06:26 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: true I suppose... I'm not a big holiday person, so that didn't occur to me
17:07:03 <Raystm2> Hey erider. Good day so far?
17:07:16 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: yeah... as in, generate a bunch of random programs, and run them all. Take those programs which best solve the problem and "breed" them resulting in new programs. Rinse, repeat.
17:07:35 <twobitsprite> It's a form of AI
17:07:38 <erider> yeah btw crc wrote me and said that he was having some problems with his dsl 
17:08:02 <Raystm2> Thanks erider.
17:08:08 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: neat!
17:08:30 <twobitsprite> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming
17:08:55 <erider> also he sent me an updated toka 
17:09:21 <twobitsprite> Anyways, so I need to find a language that's easy to generate semi-random programs, and easy to splice into peices for "breeding" etc... while also being relatively fast and powerful
17:09:32 <erider> he said that he would be on when they fix the problem 
17:10:09 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: if your looking for a language that gets right close to the metal, can create languages that pertain directly to the problem domain, is fast and extreamly powerful in the right hands... Ya, Forth.
17:10:32 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: sweet... now, where do I start? :)
17:11:16 <twobitsprite> I'm on x86/win32... I need to find a good implementation mostly for playing around with. I want to get familiar with the language first, so I need something interactive for the time being
17:11:25 <erider> twobitsprite: Critics have argued that it is theoretically impossible, but more research is needed
17:11:49 <twobitsprite> erider: argued that what is theoretically impossible?
17:11:58 <twobitsprite> erider: GP?
17:12:00 <Raystm2> Win32forth is good. gforth as well.
17:12:31 <erider> yes
17:12:59 <twobitsprite> erider: how is GP impossible? Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am talking about... GP is used all the time to solve complex problems
17:13:56 <erider> the is what the webpage you just posted said 
17:15:11 <twobitsprite> erider: ahh, you are taking that statement out of context... they are referring to meta-genetic programming
17:17:01 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: ok, so I have downloaded gforth... now I need a good tutorial... any suggestions?
17:18:06 <twobitsprite> I have strong programming experience with a variety of programming paradigms, so I don't need anything that'll talk down to me, just something to get me used to the syntax and structure of Forth programs...
17:18:40 <erider> http://ftp.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/
17:18:56 <Razor-X> You'll have a hard time finding Forth tutorials that talk down to you, trust me.
17:19:19 <Razor-X> Even Starting Forth is pretty quick.
17:20:42 <erider> http://www.theforthsource.com/guide.html
17:23:30 <twobitsprite> I'll see how the gforth tutorial does... thanks erider
17:24:02 <erider> http://forth.sourceforge.net/test/mlg/website/forthlinks/rev0.html
17:24:15 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: yeah, I doubt many people come to Forth right off the bat
17:24:33 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: I suggest first "Starting Forth" followed by "Thinkiing Forth" then "Programming Forth" all online.
17:25:03 <Razor-X> I haven't read Programming Forth. Hmm.
17:26:05 <twobitsprite> I'll check them out...
17:26:21 <twobitsprite> for now, however, I've started the gForth tutorial, and I already have some questions :)
17:26:44 <twobitsprite> the gForth tutorial is asking me to enter "0 0 !" into gForth, but it complains when I do... stack underflow
17:26:59 <twobitsprite> er... "Invalid memory address"
17:27:00 <Razor-X> Heh. I didn't try out all the examples.
17:27:12 <twobitsprite> http://ftp.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Crash-Course-Tutorial.html#Crash%20Course%20Tutorial
17:27:37 <twobitsprite> ohh
17:27:38 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: ask your questions, please, but I suggest "Starting Forth" for anybody not even remotely familure with Forth. It's that different.
17:27:44 <Razor-X> I suggest Starting Forth, in fact. It seems beginner-ish, and it is a bit, but the course is laid out extremely well for those versed in programming.
17:27:48 <twobitsprite> I just finished reading the page... I guess it's supposed to mess up :P
17:28:10 <Raystm2> :) ya that's a crash to show you a crash if mem servs.
17:28:15 <twobitsprite> ok, ok... I'll read that :P
17:28:18 <Raystm2> :)
17:29:14 <Raystm2> http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html
17:29:24 <Razor-X> The end lessons are tough though.
17:29:49 <Razor-X> Like learning about pointers the first time over screaming ``I don't understand! I can't dereference cabinets!!!''
17:29:53 <Raystm2> then http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/
17:30:16 <Raystm2> then http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk/arena/ProgramForth.pdf
17:30:24 <Raystm2> should last the weekend, I suppose. 
17:30:44 <Razor-X> What is Programming Forth about?
17:31:09 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: you wont need all that to  get started, obviously, but it's good to have when you do have a question and no one is around.
17:31:26 <Raystm2> Razor-X at the risk of sounding flipant... :)
17:31:37 <Raystm2> It's about Programming Forth. :)
17:31:43 <Razor-X> What you say?!
17:32:15 <erider> Raystm2: I thought you liked thinking forth 
17:32:31 <erider> i haven't heard of starting forth 
17:32:41 <Razor-X> o_O
17:33:03 <twobitsprite> hmm... I don't really have to program in all caps, do I?
17:33:09 <Razor-X> I read the beginning of Thinking Forth, and didn't like it all that much.
17:33:12 <twobitsprite> I yell at my computer enough...
17:33:28 <Razor-X> twobitsprite: If you want to look like you're from the 70's, it's more fun.
17:33:34 <twobitsprite> lol
17:33:46 <twobitsprite> what's the modern convention?
17:34:04 <Razor-X> In gForth anyways, no.
17:34:26 <Raystm2> ya, twobitsprite; no
17:34:57 <twobitsprite> ok... so you all use lowercase? is there any kind of convention for, i.e., capitalizing functions, or anything?
17:35:13 <Raystm2> erider: "Starting Forth" was the online book I recommended to you when you were really doing some neat things with forth but kept asking newbie type questions. You promissed to read it. :)
17:35:45 <erider> I read the thinking forth book 
17:36:35 <erider> wait is it the one with the F that one creates? 
17:36:56 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: you will find that all words in Forth _are_ functions. Some would use caps for ANS STANDARD WORDS and lower for their own or verse visa.
17:37:14 <erider> ( Large letter F )
17:37:14 <erider> : STAR    [CHAR] * EMIT ;
17:37:14 <erider> : STARS   0 DO  STAR  LOOP ;
17:37:14 <erider> : MARGIN  CR 30 SPACES ;
17:37:14 <erider> : BLIP    MARGIN STAR ;
17:37:14 <erider> : BAR     MARGIN 5 STARS ;
17:37:16 <erider> : F       BAR BLIP BAR BLIP BLIP CR ;
17:37:31 <Raystm2> hehe. :)
17:37:38 <Razor-X> Yeah, the blocks.
17:38:02 <erider> yeah I read that one then :) 
17:38:04 <Raystm2> you have to start somewhere... and with forth the best way to start is from the very begining, it's that different, isn't it erider.
17:38:27 <erider> yeah completely 
17:38:33 <Razor-X> Yeah. I agree.
17:38:41 <erider> its a head banger 
17:38:43 <Razor-X> Although it's quick to learn.
17:38:44 <Raystm2> Oh twobitsprite do a /topic and get all those great links that Quartus put up. 
17:38:53 <Razor-X> Well, it was easier for me to grasp than Lisp.
17:38:58 <erider> not for me 
17:39:04 <Razor-X> Oh.
17:39:07 <Raystm2> Ya Razor-X me too.
17:39:09 <erider> lisp was easy to learn 
17:39:11 <Razor-X> Lisp was a real head-banger for me.
17:39:38 <Raystm2> Might be that it's bigest problem is it is so very simple that it escapes people who've learned other langs first.
17:40:20 <Razor-X> Lisp took me a total of 40 hours.
17:40:22 <erider> I think it is that one has the thing about almost every detail 
17:40:28 <Razor-X> Forth took more like 4.
17:40:41 <erider> s/the/to 
17:41:04 <erider> are we talking syntax?
17:41:17 <Razor-X> No. Style too.
17:41:24 <Razor-X> s/ng a/nk a/ ?
17:42:57 * erider is just not getting it 
17:43:41 * erider pick C# over java in class and is pick C# up fairly easy 
17:44:02 <Razor-X> I've had only one real programming class in my life, heh.
17:46:38 <Raystm2> I had a programming class in '74. I wrote in BASIC a program to print out a Snoopy on spreadsheet on a H/P mainframe dinosaur++.
17:46:55 <erider> really I just can't see the real world application of forth like some other languages 
17:47:11 <Raystm2> Hard disks drives as large as a washing machine.
17:47:32 <erider> lol
17:47:47 <Raystm2> erider: that's because, where forth is used in the real world is in places that you may never see.
17:48:09 <Raystm2> NASA space vehicals, cars, embeded electronics...
17:48:41 <Raystm2> You'd have to be working for the firms that build and program those computers to _see_ most of the forth in the world.
17:49:24 <erider> wait they say that they use python :)
17:50:02 <Raystm2> Forth is for programmers. Languages like Python and C# and Java is for protecting the programmer from himself.
17:50:22 <Razor-X> What's ASM?
17:50:33 <erider> yeah?
17:50:47 <Raystm2> erider. NASA does use Python. mostly in the webservers and web services.
17:50:55 <Razor-X> (I agree with you, but was hoping for a humorous response.)
17:51:08 <erider> I can handle assembly easier than forth 
17:51:16 <Razor-X> Really? o_O
17:51:20 <Razor-X> I can't.
17:52:29 <Raystm2> hehe ASM is for "Real Programmers" ala ESR's story of Mel. I think that's the name of the guy.
17:52:49 <erider> yeah in assembly I don't have to do all the stack fiddling in my head I can move one thing from one area to another 
17:52:50 <Raystm2> But forth is a better ASM so...
17:53:12 <Razor-X> If you factor correctly, how is stack acrobatics difficult?
17:53:39 <Raystm2> It's not. erider just hasn't built the imagination required yet. He needs practice.
17:53:47 <Razor-X> Ah.
17:53:48 <erider> its not but its how to put together for me 
17:54:05 <erider> s/how/hard 
17:54:31 <Razor-X> I tend to work ``I have a plan up Step 12, at which point I'll let intuition handle it'' in all programming languages.
17:54:37 <erider> and I have to get use to some of the cryptic thingys 
17:57:14 <erider> for instances how does one figure this out 
17:57:19 <erider> : fib 0 1 
17:57:23 <erider>   begin 
17:57:38 <erider>     dup >r rot dup r> > 
17:57:45 <erider>  while 
17:57:57 <erider>      rot rot dup rot + dup . 
17:58:04 <erider>  repeat 
17:58:12 <erider> drop drop drop ; 
17:58:56 <Raystm2> okay erider, we can take that step by step.
17:59:08 <Raystm2> first it takes a number on the stack...
17:59:28 <erider> in scheme its easy to read 
17:59:44 <erider> (define (fib n) 
17:59:48 <Raystm2> its easy to read in forth as well, just need practice.
18:00:01 <erider>  (cond  ((= n 0) 0) 
18:00:05 <Razor-X> In Haskell, it's not, if you use Haskell's infinite lists. Same if you use streams in Scheme.
18:00:13 <Raystm2> :)
18:00:17 <erider>     ((= n 1) 1) 
18:00:36 <erider> (else (+ (fib (- n 1))
18:00:54 <erider> (fib (- n 2))))))
18:02:27 <erider> the are completely different one in almost plain english and the other is in space language 
18:03:01 <Raystm2> you think that lisp/scheme is plain english?
18:03:12 <Raystm2> you had to learn to read that lisp
18:03:32 <Raystm2> you have to hold lots of things in your mind as you read it.
18:03:46 <Raystm2> one thing for every set of parens.
18:04:02 <erider> but they are thing that you see normally 
18:04:24 <erider> dup >r rot dup r> > is crazy 
18:04:47 <Raystm2> what does dup do?
18:05:09 <erider> and you have to go word by word to follow the stack to figure out what going on 
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18:05:24 <Raystm2> that is true.
18:05:47 <erider> so if you have to do that just to read it how can you think of that in forth
18:05:49 <Raystm2> but you rarely have to keep more then 3 things in mind on the stack. 
18:05:58 <Raystm2> so what does dup do?
18:06:42 <erider> you I have to dup because the conditionals are destructive 
18:06:50 <erider> s/you/yes
18:07:02 <Raystm2> okay that's why but what does it do?
18:08:09 <erider> but that gets confessing with you have to rot and swap values then you don't know if you dup the wrong think so it take attention to details 
18:08:35 <Raystm2> Yes, programming does take attention to detail.
18:08:56 <erider> it take the TOS and make a copy and puts them on the stack 
18:09:05 <Raystm2> The stack is a very simple thing. First in -- Last out.
18:09:17 <Raystm2> yes
18:09:24 <Raystm2> ok so what is >r?
18:09:26 <erider> in assembly its a simple thing 
18:09:43 <Raystm2> this is an abstraction of assembler.
18:09:47 <erider> push to return stack 
18:09:51 <Raystm2> yes.
18:10:00 <Raystm2> rot?
18:10:37 <erider> thats the three item on the stack and  puts it at TOS
18:10:46 <Raystm2> erider: do you want to write the entire assembler function for an action or would you rather reference it by it's label?
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18:11:14 <erider> Raystm2: what do you mean? 
18:11:40 <Raystm2> in assembler we use labels to jump to the code that performs an action.
18:11:41 <erider> oops s/the/take 
18:12:10 <Raystm2> Forth words are like these labels.
18:12:58 <Raystm2> ROT stands for the assembler instruction, ( in many forths) that moves the second and third items up the stack and puts the first in the third slot.
18:13:04 <erider> I don't see them as subroutines but I know that they are 
18:13:34 <Raystm2> ya.
18:14:04 <erider> rot (a b c -- b c a ) 
18:14:38 <Raystm2> rot ( a b c -- c a b ) 
18:15:12 <Raystm2> c is first on the stack. Why? cuz a and b got there first.
18:15:54 <Raystm2> a goes on, b goes on, c goes on, then rot puts c in a's place and moves a to b and b to c.
18:16:35 <Raystm2> the top of the stack is to the right.
18:16:36 <erider> a b c rot  == b c a 
18:16:57 <Raystm2> wait, now i'm confused. :)
18:17:57 <erider> it take the three item and puts it on the TOS 
18:18:09 <Raystm2> yikes sorry erider. 
18:18:22 <Raystm2> you know more about it then me so you lead the class now. :)
18:18:38 <Raystm2> ya a b c -- b c a 
18:18:50 <Raystm2> take the third item and rotate it up to the first.
18:19:04 <Raystm2> take items 2 and three and move them down 1
18:19:33 <erider> I play with forth at least once a day but I'm not at the level to read anything with the language 
18:19:42 <Raystm2> ya.
18:19:55 <erider> s/read/write 
18:20:17 <Raystm2> well, you havn't quit, there is hope :)
18:20:30 <erider> I haven't 
18:20:59 <erider> but I'm a little frustrated
18:21:29 <erider> I'm trying to get the loops down 
18:21:30 <Raystm2> You only fail at something if you quit. Well, I suppose there are things that can't be done. Hit a Nolan Ryan fastball comes to mind...
18:21:42 <Raystm2> cool.
18:21:49 <erider> I'm still not getting them completely 
18:22:12 <erider> I think I got the for-next one down 
18:22:14 <Raystm2> in colorForth there is one basic loop and one basic conditional and that conditional is not stack consuming.
18:22:47 <erider> really 
18:22:47 <Raystm2> in other forths there are every type of loop that you find in every other language.
18:23:15 <Raystm2> ya erider. colorForth is so very simple that even forthers have a hard time with it.
18:23:20 <erider> you only need three 
18:23:22 <Raystm2> :)
18:23:28 <erider> maybe 
18:23:45 <Raystm2> you only need one and you can either make that work or turn it into the other three.
18:23:47 <erider> foreach style and while 
18:24:01 <erider> and maybe a do-until 
18:24:23 <erider> which one it that 
18:24:24 <Raystm2> yikes i lie again. 
18:24:50 <erider> is* 
18:24:56 <Raystm2> cF has two. Words that have the name of the word before a semi-colon are re-entrant recursive.
18:25:07 <Raystm2> for instance...
18:25:20 <Raystm2> : name does-this-thing-over name ; 
18:25:35 <erider> recursive 
18:25:49 <twobitsprite> how do you clear the stack
18:25:49 <twobitsprite> ?
18:25:58 <erider> clearstack 
18:26:00 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: which lang?
18:26:04 <Raystm2> oh gforth.
18:26:06 <Raystm2> ya
18:26:26 <erider> or .  
18:26:40 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: what do you mean "which lang"? is that different between interpreters?
18:26:54 <erider> twobitsprite: clearstack 
18:27:02 <twobitsprite> erider thanks
18:27:28 <erider> no worries 
18:27:40 <Raystm2> ya, If mem serves win32forth doesn't have clearstack and I had to define it once so that my progy worked in both win32 and g.
18:28:32 <erider> Raystm2: there are something confessing like >in or  in> 
18:28:39 <twobitsprite> wow... reversing the order of three things on the stack is tuff... (don't tell me though :P)
18:29:09 <erider> and I haven't got the hang of r> >r 
18:29:23 <twobitsprite> nevermind, got it :)
18:29:31 <Raystm2> twobitsprite: erider also said that if you just want to clear the most recent thing entered on the stack you can use a . <-- that period is called dot and it prints a number from the stack to the display, 
18:29:54 <erider> twobitsprite: I just started to use {   } 
18:29:54 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: yeah, I saw that in the book already, thanks though :)
18:29:56 <Raystm2> but if you are not running a display then it's like dev nul.
18:30:18 <twobitsprite> Raystm2: i.e., in a program its like drop?
18:30:37 <Raystm2> yes.
18:31:08 <Raystm2> erider: ya those > before and after a word used to confuse me as well.
18:31:22 <Razor-X> Raystm2: How do you define clearstack? Is there a word that tells you whether there's another element in the stack or not?
18:31:24 <erider> :) 
18:31:55 <Raystm2> I see them in a word a "TO" >r from stack TO RETURN r> from RETURN to STACK
18:32:39 <Raystm2> Razor-X I used depth as both variations of Forth had it already defined.
18:33:02 <Razor-X> Aha.
18:33:19 <Raystm2> I suppose with out depth you can take the start Stack pointer and save it somewhere and then just go back to the start pointer.
18:33:20 <Razor-X> Mind any typos. I'm field-testing my new for-purposes-of-being-silent keyboard :P.
18:33:29 <Razor-X> Uggh. And my slow typing speed.
18:33:35 <Raystm2> haha, :)
18:34:20 <Razor-X> I love my IBM Model M to death.
18:34:45 <Razor-X> But, there are hours by miaj gepatroj that I'm not legally allowed to be awake.
18:34:58 <Razor-X> So this is for those times :).
18:34:58 <Raystm2> Razor-X: the fun thing about that clearstack was that i had to learn to also drop the depth that gets added to the stack in both cases, empty vs. something on it. 
18:35:01 <erider> depth? 
18:35:11 <Razor-X> erider: Try it in a Forth now ;)
18:35:22 <Raystm2> depth returns the number of items on the data stack.
18:35:40 <Raystm2> .s uses depth to tell you the stack count.
18:36:33 <erider> its counts the items on the stack and puts the result on the TOS
18:37:57 <Raystm2> yes. isn't it funny. It gives you the count but the count is wrong because unless you do something with that count, there is one more item on the stack then the count says. :)
18:38:46 <Razor-X> Yeah, heh.
18:38:50 <Raystm2> of course, you would normally do something with that count...
18:38:54 <erider> so if you wanted to clearstack you would : testclear depth 0 do drop loop ;
18:38:54 <erider> ?
18:39:01 <Razor-X> : my-clearstack depth 0 do drop loop ;
18:39:06 <Razor-X> Yeah.
18:39:20 <Razor-X> Try it out in a Forth instead of asking us ;)
18:39:32 <erider> I did :P
18:40:02 <Raystm2> depth dup if for drop next then drop ; 
18:40:16 <Raystm2> yikes missed the exit
18:40:44 <Razor-X> Mmf. Yours is complicated.
18:40:49 <Raystm2> : clearstack depth dup if for drop next exit then drop ;
18:41:16 <erider> Raystm2: ok you are doing the retro thingy :) 
18:41:23 <Raystm2> not all forths have do
18:41:31 <Razor-X> Oh?
18:41:32 <Raystm2> they all have for
18:41:36 <Razor-X> I didn't know that.
18:41:59 <erider> gforth has do 
18:42:10 <erider> but I'm not sure if for
18:42:19 <Razor-X> <Raystm2> they all have for
18:42:28 <Raystm2> retro would use " ;then" instead of exit.
18:42:59 <erider> gforth doesn't have ;then but it has then
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18:43:34 <Raystm2> retro with Quartus' new ANS loaded could use exit.
18:43:50 <erider> so "do" take two items from the stack? 
18:43:58 <Raystm2> I suppose any ANS forth could use do.
18:44:03 <Raystm2> yes
18:44:10 <Raystm2> the count and the limit
18:44:20 <Razor-X> Yup. do uses the return stack.
18:44:37 <Razor-X> *also uses
18:44:38 <erider> I'm shaky at best 
18:49:57 <erider> Raystm2: question
18:50:14 <erider> : test .s >r >r . r> r> .s ; 
18:50:33 <erider> 1 2 3 test  <3> 1 2 3 1 <2> 2 3  ok
18:51:02 <erider> where did that "1" come from on the TOS
18:53:15 <Raystm2> . 
18:53:16 <zpg> hi
18:53:56 <Raystm2> you pushed the three to return, then the 2 then you printed the 1 then you popped the 2 then the 3 and you were left with that.
18:54:00 <Raystm2> hi zpg :)
18:54:13 <zpg> hey ray
18:54:15 <Raystm2> up early or late?
18:54:31 <zpg> late. no, he's asking why the first .s returns  <3> 1 2 3 1
18:54:34 <zpg> or rather, prints
18:54:35 <zpg> it's not,
18:54:42 <zpg> it's printing  <3> 1 2 3 
18:54:45 <Raystm2> it doesn't sorry erider
18:54:46 <zpg> and then you're printing 1 with the .
18:54:51 <zpg> try
18:55:14 <zpg>  : test .s >r >r cr . cr r> r> .s ;  
18:55:19 <Raystm2> nice
18:55:34 <erider> ok 
18:55:52 <zpg> note that . consumes the top of the stack. so if you wish to print out the TOS for debug purposes, dup first
18:55:53 <zpg> as in
18:55:59 <zpg>  : test .s >r >r cr dup . cr r> r> .s ;  
18:56:03 <Raystm2> zpg: a bit of the blind leading the blind here so... :)
18:56:15 <Raystm2> also nice.
18:56:46 <erider> cool! I see it now 
18:56:50 <zpg> i need to be up early, but fancied a brief sojourn in #forth
18:56:51 <Raystm2> :)
18:57:11 <zpg> erider: yeah, it was just a display issue. i find it's often convenient to surround item's i'm printing with ==> <== just to be clear
18:57:23 <Raystm2> :)
18:57:58 <erider> *__*
18:58:06 <zpg> indeed, whatever you fancy
18:58:14 <zpg> but outputting newlines is useful for clarifying input
18:58:25 <erider> thanks 
18:59:03 <zpg> : peek dup ." ==> " . ." <==" ; 
18:59:07 <zpg> 3 peek ==> 3 <== ok
18:59:20 <zpg> etc.
19:00:05 <erider> I see 
19:00:42 <erider> but I'm not sure why we need to keep dup the stack 
19:01:19 <zpg> huh?
19:01:25 <zpg> if your stack is   1 2 3
19:01:30 <zpg> dup will give you
19:01:31 <zpg> 1 2 3 3
19:01:48 <zpg> since "." consumes the TOS, that'll take (and print) "3"
19:01:52 <zpg> leaving "1 2 3"
19:02:00 <zpg> the original stack condition therefore preserved.
19:02:16 <erider> I see
19:02:53 <Raystm2> erider: now print the 2 with out destroying its position on the second .s.
19:03:05 <erider> ok I was talking to Raystm2 about trying to solve problems in forth 
19:03:23 <zpg> erider: oh you mean, generally?
19:03:30 <erider> yes 
19:04:20 <Raystm2> Well, I suppose zpg said it. You didn't want to remove that 3 from the stack when you printed it, so you dup it. 
19:04:22 <zpg> i agree, it's a  bit of a pain in the butt.
19:04:30 <erider> like factorial for instance 
19:04:33 <Raystm2> if you didn't mind removing the item then don't dup.
19:06:22 <erider> ah I see how to do the 2swap now 
19:06:34 <zpg> how?
19:10:08 <erider> you would use the >r r> operators 
19:10:33 * Raystm2 has an u2swp \ under 2swap that leaves the top of stack and 2swaps the next 4 items. I use it in an implimentation of The Towers of Hanoi in colorForths.
19:11:45 <Raystm2> That way I can keep all the addresses of each ring on the stack and I have keys set to swap rot u2swp and move them up down left and right.
19:11:48 <zpg> erider: i take it you're thinking of  ": my2swap rot >r rot r> ;" ?
19:12:51 <erider> to be honest no ;( 
19:12:59 <zpg> well try it
19:13:03 <zpg> and think ==>
19:13:04 <zpg> 1 2 3 4
19:13:09 <zpg> 1 2 3     r: 4
19:13:14 <zpg> 2 3 1    r: 4
19:13:25 <zpg> oops
19:13:26 <erider> I haven't worked it out but I was thinking that I have to use >r >r 
19:13:30 <zpg> i never get these clarifications right
19:13:33 <zpg> 1 2 3 4
19:13:45 <zpg> 1 3 4 2
19:13:52 <zpg> 1 3 4  r: 2
19:13:57 <zpg> 3 4 1  r: 2
19:14:01 <zpg> 3 4 1 2
19:14:05 <Raystm2> :)
19:14:24 <zpg> hopefully that makes sense
19:14:43 <Raystm2> Sure it does. Well done, sir! :)
19:15:04 <zpg> heh
19:15:09 <Raystm2> like watching a forth work as you entered them.
19:15:11 <zpg> well, my string< is ugly and doesn't work
19:15:26 <zpg> erider: we could write a descriptive definition actually
19:15:42 <erider> really?
19:15:46 * Raystm2 reads >r as push and r> as pop.
19:15:49 <zpg> : my2swap .s rot .s >r .s rot .s r> .s ;   redefined my2swap   ok
19:15:53 <zpg> 1 2 3 4 my2swap <4> 1 2 3 4 <4> 1 3 4 2 <3> 1 3 4 <3> 3 4 1 <4> 3 4 1 2  ok
19:16:05 <zpg> you'll have to imagine the >r and r> in that example
19:16:09 <zpg> hold on a sec though
19:17:22 <Raystm2> erider, see all those .s    that's just like puting printf statments in your c code.
19:17:57 <Raystm2> you can build a .s that turns on and off so that you can test your code as you go. 
19:18:02 <erider> yeah but then get confusing too :) just like earlier
19:18:23 <erider> s/then/they 
19:19:53 <erider> Raystm2: on && off? 
19:20:42 * Raystm2 doesn't quite understand the question. Thats a c and operator, no?
19:21:04 <Raystm2> oh how to build one?
19:21:14 <zpg> variable debug-mode  ok
19:21:15 <zpg> : stack. debug-mode @ if .s then ;  ok
19:21:15 <zpg> stack.  ok
19:21:15 <zpg> 1 debug-mode !  ok
19:21:17 <Raystm2> I use one in RxChess to turn on and off the stack. 
19:21:19 <zpg> stack. <0>  ok
19:21:51 <zpg> : blah 1 2 stack. 2drop ;  ok
19:21:51 <zpg> blah <2> 1 2  ok
19:21:51 <zpg> 0 debug-mode !  ok
19:21:51 <zpg> blah  ok
19:21:57 <erider> yes 
19:22:24 <zpg> i'd not redefine .s if i were aiming for debug stack printouts
19:23:13 <zpg> not sure how Raystm2 went about it.
19:23:52 <Raystm2> ya, dont redefine it, just use the stack. word that zpg just did and you can put stack. anywhere you want the stack to print when debugmode is on.
19:24:59 <erider> zpg: what do you use forth to do on a normal day to day 
19:25:31 <Raystm2> http://retroforth.org/projects/darcs/RxChess/RxChess.forth
19:25:32 <zpg> i find it makes for good breakfasting, 
19:25:44 <zpg> though often i opt for muesli.
19:26:00 <Raystm2> it's a bit spread out in that code, but if you want to see it...
19:26:02 <zpg> a day by day decision i have to make. weighs on the soul.
19:26:31 <Raystm2> haha :)
19:26:33 <Raystm2> no kidding.
19:26:51 <zpg> erider: seriously though -- i'm just tinkering in it for the time being. a few things irritate me greatly, and i lean towards languages with more data-structures built in.
19:26:58 <Raystm2> I don't think i've ever had muesli.
19:27:32 <zpg> for example, i have to write some string comparison code, string< and string> -- no biggy, but i seem run into this problem every other thing i want to do -- implement core functionality before getting to the crux of the problem. not sure whether this will prove to be too much overhead in the long run.
19:27:45 <zpg> *for every other..
19:28:02 <zpg> having said that, i have some working code that uses an associative array built atop my list code, which works nicely.
19:28:20 <erider> ah I see so no one here use it as a SysAdin language to move and delete, edit files or run webservers 
19:28:21 <zpg> string comparison stuff that i wrote works well -- counted and paired string comparison code.
19:28:32 <zpg> erider: i wouldn't dream of it.
19:28:56 <zpg> not that i do that stuff anyway, mind. but i'd opt for a language with a dedicated toolbelt already built in.
19:29:55 <erider> I see 
19:29:59 <Raystm2> erider: while all those things are possible, most forthers are of the mind that if a problem is already solved...  And besides, forth would have to be as large as windows to be as ubiquitous. 
19:30:07 <zpg> i also find constant stack manipulation might be a hurdle that proves irritating after a while. i know that factoring helps, but even so.
19:32:17 <zpg> the stuff i do is concept-orientated, nothing low-level or embedded. as such, i tend to favour abstract layers to communicate the task as efficiently as possible in terms of me:computer, not in terms of computational efficiency. the latter isn't really a concern, especially in 2006. given that, and looking at my string< definition, it's a little frustrating. on the other hand (again, flip-flop we go) a wrote the equivalent of the lisp
19:32:17 <zpg> code (member x a-list) in 10 mins, albeit rather badly. you CAN check whether a string is present in a list though. 
19:32:22 <erider> ok then what would you guys say one should you forth for on a given day 
19:32:52 <zpg> so in my code, as it stands, you'd create a list as follows ==> { this is a list of tokens} and check whether a string is in there like this  s" is" { this is a list of tokens } member?
19:33:13 <zpg> which is pretty nice to work with once the bare essentials have been written.
19:33:22 <zpg> erider: i don't follow.
19:33:28 <zpg> and -- <end of rant>
19:34:17 <erider> ok then what would you guys say one should use forth for
19:34:19 <zpg> Raystm2: 'late' is becoming 'early' -- 5-6 hours sleep isn't too promising.
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19:35:37 <zpg> oops
19:35:51 <erider> ok then what would you guys say one should use forth for
19:36:04 <erider> zpg: that rocks that you are using emacs ;) 
19:36:06 <zpg> well, that's a sign. erider -- i'll leave you in the capable hands of people who know something about forth. i've only been hacking it for a short time; it's enjoyable, different, interesting.
19:36:16 <zpg> erider: always my friend.
19:37:07 <zpg> that needs a comma 
19:37:50 <erider> zpg:  whats interesting about forth to you?
19:38:09 <zpg> simplicity, extensibility, stack-orientation.
19:38:17 <zpg> i have a bucket of gripes too.
19:38:40 <erider> simplicity? hmm 
19:38:44 <zpg> well exactly
19:38:47 <zpg> a dual-edged sword.
19:39:07 <zpg> computationally, it's very simple. programmatically, i'm not so sure.
19:39:15 <zpg> i don't think the simplicity scales well
19:39:22 <zpg> but others would no doubt disagree.
19:39:40 <erider> :)
19:40:26 <zpg> what i failed to note above was how impressed i was by the cleanliness of implementing lists in forth. even with my clumsy code.
19:41:29 <erider> really?  zpg do you do and parse text from text file?
19:41:33 <zpg> but for word-based syntactically-simple programming, i'd suggest Smalltalk as a great case in point. forget the MVC/GUI stuff, you can write:
19:42:03 <zpg> myObject isKindOf Array ifTrue: [ Transcript show: 'Well, so it is!' ] ifFalse: [ Transcript show: 'Nope. ].
19:42:04 <erider> gst is interesting 
19:42:21 <zpg> i think that'll parse.
19:42:44 <zpg> erider: no, it's all programmatic at the moment. written on the Palm.
19:42:59 <zpg> you can say   1 2 3 4 4 make-list
19:43:02 <erider> oh! 
19:43:14 <erider> you don't have forth on computer?
19:43:16 <zpg> or s" hi" s" there" s" erider" 3 make-slist   \ as in, make string-list
19:43:26 <zpg> or that {} syntax i mentioned earlier.
19:43:27 <zpg> yes, gforth.
19:43:47 <erider> ah ok and you use gst too?
19:43:48 <zpg> the code works in both.
19:44:02 <zpg> no, i never liked gst. i found that without a class browser, smalltalk was unwieldy.
19:44:12 <zpg> i used Cincom's VisualWorks and Squeak
19:44:34 <erider> ah hmmm 
19:44:42 * erider has gst 
19:44:59 <zpg> if you're interested in smalltalk and haven't tried other implementations, then ditch gst and check out VW or Squeak
19:45:08 <zpg> gst isn't really smalltalk.
19:45:27 <zpg> that is, smalltalk is not a base language, it's a dedicated environment. gst won't give you that.
19:45:42 <erider> I can seem to get Squeak running on my system 
19:45:47 <zpg> linux?
19:46:13 <erider> there is something truely wrong with my graphic stuff 
19:46:17 <erider> and yes linux 
19:46:47 <zpg> yeah, it should run pretty easily. anyway, i have to head to bed otherwise i'll be even more stupified than usual tomorrow.
19:46:54 <erider> I can't run factor either 
19:47:13 <erider> ok good night 
19:47:17 <erider> thanks for your time 
19:47:22 <zpg> night, good luck with forth.
19:47:24 <zpg> you're welcome.
19:47:33 <zpg> night Raystm2, all.
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19:53:12 <twobitsprite> lol... : "2 4 ; 2 . 4 ok" :)
19:56:23 <twobitsprite> : 2   dup 2 = if 3 else 2 then ;
19:56:30 <twobitsprite> 0 2 2 + . 5 ok
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20:51:30 <Quartus> Hey.
20:52:04 <crc> hi
20:52:10 <Quartus> How are things?
20:52:33 <crc> pretty good
20:54:21 <Quartus> This is good.
20:54:52 <crc> my dsl connection is not operational though :(
20:55:28 <Quartus> There is always something.
20:57:07 <crc> yup
20:57:26 <crc> at present I'm using a windows box with AOL dialup
20:57:31 <crc> slow, but it works
20:58:58 <Quartus> I've had to waste two days compensating for the stupidity of others, myself.  Tiring business. :)
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