00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.11.21
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05:14:22 <erider> good morning all 
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05:37:18 <arke> hi
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06:11:18 <Ray_work> Good morning. 
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06:26:28 <nanstm> hi
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07:06:50 <Ray_work> hi JasonWoof: yesterday you mentioned that you would like to see a find or search facility in colorForth. The current version '05 has such a thing.
07:07:28 <JasonWoof> yeah
07:07:31 <JasonWoof> I heard it has one
07:07:47 <JasonWoof> herkforth has 3
07:09:02 <JasonWoof> fronds has 2 already, and you can't even type in source code yet
07:09:17 <Ray_work> :) 3? Like literals and words and what else?
07:12:28 <JasonWoof> 1) go to the definition of the word typed
07:12:35 <JasonWoof> 2) go to the definition of the word under the cursor
07:12:43 <JasonWoof> 3) go to the next occurence of the word under the cursor
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07:13:08 <JasonWoof> might also be able to go to the next occurence of the word typed. not sure
07:13:44 <JasonWoof> it also has a "back" button like a browser (takes you back to where you've been recently)
07:39:06 <Ray_work> okay, cool. the colorforth one does that but I don't think it goes back.
07:39:40 <Ray_work> it rotates thru all of the blocks starting from 0 and looks for the next one, one after another. 
07:39:48 <Ray_work> there is a seperate find for literals.
08:09:56 <JasonWoof> cool
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10:08:57 <Ray_work> wb Quartus.
10:10:59 <Quartus_> hey
10:18:26 <Quartus_> what's up?
10:35:48 <Ray_work> Oh, just business as usual, save that it's a little slower today due to pending holiday.
10:36:46 <Ray_work> What about yourself? Big plans for the day?
10:45:02 <Quartus_> puppet making. :)
10:45:47 <Ray_work>  Filling orders?
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11:30:29 <Quartus_> sorry, called away. No, seeking new customers on this one.
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11:33:19 <Quartus_> a Tom Servo on the bench today.
11:33:24 <Ray_work> :) 
11:33:41 <Ray_work> Good luck, sir! 
11:34:08 <Ray_work> You know, there are only three ways to make more money in a business. ( legally that is)
11:34:17 <Quartus_> thanks. The parts are all made and joined together; it's all downhill from here, painting and assembly.
11:34:25 <Ray_work> ah cool.
11:34:38 <Quartus_> Three ways?
11:34:41 <Ray_work> Si.
11:34:48 <Ray_work> 1 find more customers.
11:34:59 <Ray_work> 2 sell more stuff to the customer you already have.
11:35:04 <Ray_work> 3 lower your costs.
11:35:18 <Ray_work> I've been trying to think of a fourth for a while...
11:35:53 <marble> 4 licence fees
11:35:57 <marble> 5 sell your company
11:35:58 <marble> :P
11:36:02 <Quartus_> 4. ???  5. PROFIT!!!
11:36:52 <Ray_work> 4 = 1
11:36:55 <Ray_work> 5 = 1
11:37:00 <Ray_work> 4 = ???
11:37:05 <Ray_work> 5 = 1 2 3
11:38:30 <Ray_work> Quartus: have you kept a list of the people that bought these puppets in the past, and can you think of something they might like to bye to suppliment their previous purchases?
11:38:47 <Ray_work> bye yikes buy doh!
11:39:04 <Ray_work> been quiting forth way too long there with bye.
11:45:13 <Quartus_> I do, ray, but I don't know what else they'd like.
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11:48:51 <Ray_work> thats always a tough nut to crack.
11:48:57 <Quartus_> indeed.
11:49:42 <Ray_work> But, remember, they've had a positive relationship with you so far, happy to do business with you, you do stuff that is hard for them to find any other way, and if you crack that nut --- go get 'em.
12:01:19 <Quartus_> Hard to know what a MST3K bot buyer might like in conjunction with their bot. Little hats maybe :)
12:12:24 <marble> what are these bots you're talking about?
12:15:29 <Ray_work> Quartus: What about miniatures?
12:15:41 <Ray_work> Just in time for Xmas.
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12:25:12 <Ray_work> Yikes, I wonder how long my home computer was off line?
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12:37:18 <Quartus> Miniatures -- maybe. Tricky. There are pewter ones on the market.
12:37:41 <Quartus> marble -- puppets. http://nealbridges.com/gallery
12:39:25 <Quartus> Fictional robots.
12:44:59 * marble acks
12:45:24 <marble> add more characters and a compelling story line?
12:45:25 <Quartus> I make the little beggars.
12:45:55 <Quartus> Well, that's been done; they were on tv for ten or eleven years.
12:47:24 <marble> are you part of a comminity associated with these things? that would be the best environment to network in... new contacts, new ideas, etc...
12:48:04 <Quartus> Yes, there's a big bunch o' people who are keen on it. 
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12:49:36 <marble> what are the main activity surrounding these things? building them? painting them? making sets? making videos?
12:49:44 <marble> I can stop with the questions, if you want :)
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12:51:43 <Quartus> Heh. Hmm, main activity is watching the show, I'd say.
13:05:40 <marble> I'm out of ideas -- if there characters had a catch-phrase or something, you could make a unit that said it
13:05:55 <Quartus> Thought about that. Haven't found any cheap way to add speech or animatronics as yet.
13:08:11 <Ray_work> Soon, pda's with sound will be cheap enough on E-bay to use as the sound, I suppose.
13:08:44 <marble> get hold of an old palmos device :)
13:10:41 <marble> it'll need to be something with flash or similar -- having to reinstall the program because the battery ran-out would be annoying
13:10:53 <Ray_work> :)
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13:31:35 <Quartus> hmm, old palmos devices with sound... not cheap enough yet, I daresay.
13:32:12 <Quartus> I suppose you could hang a d-to-a converter off of the bus of a Visor, and run it directly.
13:32:35 <Quartus> Annoying, though. I'd like to buy off-the-shelf audio modules, but my initial investigations didn't find anything reasonably priced.
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14:13:20 <erider> hi all 
14:17:35 <Quartus> hey
14:18:33 <erider> hi Quartus
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14:59:07 <erider> Quartus is the book going to be ready but next year? That is early next year
15:01:00 <Quartus> Hope so.
15:02:35 <erider> do you think that one can be taught to be a good programmer or is it something natural the one is just born with? 
15:03:15 <Quartus> The skills can be learned.  The interest is likely something you have or don't have.
15:03:33 <JasonWoof> oh god... I just spent a long time trying to debug my script to send an e-mail
15:03:43 <JasonWoof> php's mail() function was returning false
15:04:23 <JasonWoof> finally realized that it's because my home system only delivers mail for my user
15:05:38 <Quartus> Like spending a half hour trying to figure out why something won't turn on, only to discover it isn't plugged in. :)
15:07:28 <JasonWoof> yeah
15:07:38 <JasonWoof> I was printing all kinds of stuff to debug
15:07:59 <JasonWoof> And bits were missing because my browser thought they were html
15:08:22 <JasonWoof> took me way way too long to realize that the strings were correct, they just were bad html
15:10:07 <erider> Quartus do you memorize syntax? or do you reference it? 
15:12:22 <Quartus> I remember the parts I use most often; the other stuff I look up.
15:15:34 <erider> ok cool! I thought I would need to try to memorize all this stuff 
15:15:53 <Quartus> Are you new to programming?
15:18:04 <Quartus> I thought you had mentioned prior experience.
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15:20:36 <erider> I have some experience been I'm working toward doing it for work 
15:21:30 <erider> I don't know I have some confidence issues I guess 
15:23:37 <erider> I haven't really found a language that suits me I love lisp but my teacher is not interested and hearing me talk  about lisp. He would prefer C++ or Java or VB.NET 
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15:41:19 <marble> a colorforth question -- do the colours do away with POSTPONE and IMMEDIATE, etc?
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16:08:41 <erider> hi Raystm2
16:09:04 <erider> marble: Raystm2 is the man on colorforth
16:09:19 <marble> hello Raystm2 :)
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16:14:17 <marble> a more general question -- if/then can only be used during compilation -- does any forth compile and execute user commands? (instead of directly interpreting it)
16:25:37 <marble> does colorforth have [if] and [then] ?
16:27:07 <erider> marble: I'm not sure if Quartus is around but he would know 
16:28:02 <marble> I'll just sit here and spit out more questions as I think of them :)
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16:35:53 * marble wonders how interesting a forth without an address interpreter would be...
16:36:32 <erider> no worries but its seems like another slow evening
16:36:50 <marble> at least I know I'm not invisible :)
16:38:01 <erider> you are not and someone will answer people here are helpful 
16:40:37 <marble> I know, I know -- irc -- don't worry, I'm not expecting much
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16:42:43 <marble> in the programming language joy, I understand you can push chunks of code into the stack
16:42:45 <Raystm2> marble: no colorforth does not have an [if] and [then]. It does have a "non-consuming" IF and a THEN.
16:43:29 <Raystm2> I'm not sure how much Quartus really knows about colorForth. He knows enough to not like it.
16:43:51 <Raystm2> Hi erider. :)
16:43:55 <marble> can one write a conditional statement on the command line then? IF and THEN are compile-time only?
16:44:05 * Raystm2 backlogging and catching up.
16:45:06 <marble> (I'm assuming colorforth has a command-line, as I imagine it'd be hard to test your words otherwise)
16:47:22 * erider needs to reboot
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16:47:39 * marble waves at erider 
16:47:54 <marble> a sandman fan, I see...
16:52:28 <Raystm2> [xx:37]<marble> a colorforth question ... postpone and immediate...? I'm not sure Chuck uses those words. But to answer your question, words are not available until you load a block, you don't really have a traditional interpreter and so commands are not usually defined in the interpreter command line. Infact the command line is only capable of doing yellow words so...
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16:53:41 <erider> hi Raystm2
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16:54:00 <marble> wb, erider 
16:54:05 <Raystm2> wb erider :)
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16:54:21 * Raystm2 caught up now, well atleast here, several more to go.
16:54:25 <Raystm2> hi slava :)
16:54:26 <erider> thanks 
16:54:29 <slava> hi
16:54:37 <erider> hi slava
16:54:52 <Raystm2> dinner, I'll make a plate and eat at the desk here...
16:55:27 <marble> Raystm2: sounds further 'out-there' than I thought
16:56:05 * erider is interesting to see the answer about colorforth especially with all the stuff surrounding it yesterday 
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16:57:59 <marble> <Raystm2> [xx:37]<marble> a colorforth question ... postpone and immediate...? I'm not sure Chuck uses those words. But to answer your question, words are not available until you load a block, you don't really have a traditional interpreter and so commands are not usually defined in the interpreter command line. Infact the command line is only capable of doing yellow words so...
16:58:54 <marble> so it sounds as though compilation happens with loading, with nothing equivalent to a colon definite at the command-line
16:59:27 <slava> factor can do conditionals etc in the command line
16:59:52 <marble> how does it do it?
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17:00:01 <marble> compile and run, or parsing words?
17:01:19 <slava> the parser parses all input before executing
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17:02:47 <marble> you're going to have to spell it out for me :)
17:03:25 <marble> it reads all the words, and gets hold of the execution tokens for them, then it runs those tokens?
17:03:59 <slava> roughly
17:04:22 <Raystm2> marble: right, nothing on the command line in the way of a colon. Red words take the place of the colon. They also perform a cr and that is really the only text formating available for source.
17:04:43 <marble> slava: and any xts for immediates are run now before the next word is parsed?
17:04:49 <slava> yes
17:08:23 <marble> Raystm2: I'm rather wedded to the command-line -- sounds like you'd need to recode a piece of you to work with colorforth...
17:09:22 <marble> slava: so compile-and-execute is a good description ?
17:09:33 <Raystm2> not really, because the command line is replace by the fact that you are either in the editor or running a task. if you are not running a  task then you are in the editor and it is nothing to do something like code a block then type the block number on the input line and load.
17:10:27 <marble> how to you test what you've coded, except at the command-line ?
17:10:42 <marble> define a word in the editor to test the word you're interested it, and then run it?
17:11:18 <Raystm2> marble: hehe "recode a piece of you"  i get that now! :)  ya, you really do have to approach it without predjudice or you will only poo-poo it like most forthers.
17:11:26 <slava> marble: yes, except factor calls it a parser not a compiler
17:11:39 <Raystm2> Quartus calls it a waste of time.
17:12:17 <erider> marble: what are you working on?
17:13:52 <marble> erider: I have an rpn calculator, and I want to make it programmable :)
17:13:53 <Raystm2> marble: statistically speaking, colorforth is virtually loveless. Most only borrow a few of the ideas, leave the rest.
17:14:20 <erider> ah cool! '
17:14:28 <marble> the things that got me interested in colorforth was the idea that it didn't have the STATE variable
17:15:08 <marble> erider: I'm cheating an unbelievable amount though -- I'm writing it in python :>
17:15:59 <marble> I first heard about forth about 15 years ago, but I never went down that route...
17:16:30 <erider> writing what in python?
17:16:39 <marble> my programmable calculator
17:17:03 <erider> you have pippy and you calcu
17:17:26 <erider> your* 
17:17:43 <marble> on palm, you mean? I'm just writing this on my linux box
17:17:48 <Raystm2> marble: I found colorForth and Python both 15 years ago. I swore I'd learn CF and it has taken me a very long time to do that. But then, I'm only a hobbyest, I only play a programmer on tv.
17:18:20 <marble> python existed 15 years ago?
17:18:27 <marble> I've only been using it for the last 5...
17:18:36 <Raystm2> ya. first version i saw was 1.5.2
17:18:49 <Raystm2> the website was tiny :)
17:19:20 <Razor-X> colorForth existed 15 years ago?
17:19:28 <Raystm2> wait, no marble, that's not right, 10 years ago. 95 or 6.
17:19:29 <marble> the world-wide-web was tiny back in those days ;)
17:19:40 <Razor-X> *I* barely existed in those days.
17:19:42 <marble> 10 sounds a bit more reasonable :)
17:19:48 <Raystm2> hehe hi Razor-X :)
17:19:58 <Razor-X> Heya.
17:20:22 <erider> hehe
17:21:15 <marble> Raystm2: what's your day job?
17:21:35 <Raystm2> I'm a salesman. 
17:22:25 <marble> <-- programmer
17:22:28 <Raystm2> cool.
17:22:42 <Raystm2> What are you currently working on?
17:23:17 <Razor-X> <-- Student.
17:23:21 <Raystm2> cool.
17:23:36 <marble> not a whole lot -- left my job about 3 months go -- currently poking around with python, xml
17:23:46 * Raystm2 has a business website going up. Should be ready by January, most likely mid December.
17:23:50 <marble> writing my programmable rpn calculator, etc :)
17:24:00 <Raystm2> Cool. :)
17:25:05 <Razor-X> The only P language I know is Ruby, heh.
17:25:16 <Raystm2> :)
17:25:26 <Raystm2> Razor-X: do you use Rails?
17:25:27 <marble> I haven't gotten around to learning ruby -- it looks interesting
17:25:32 <Razor-X> Raystm2: Nope.
17:25:36 <Raystm2> k
17:25:55 <Raystm2> It does look interesting.
17:25:55 <erider> marble: how are you embedding the language on your calc 
17:25:57 <Razor-X> Scheme and now Forth is what I prefer to do my non-time-critical stuff.
17:26:06 <Raystm2> Ya.
17:26:41 <Raystm2> Scheme was fun. Lisp and Python too. But i've not returned to another language since finding 'rea;
17:26:44 <Raystm2> oops
17:26:52 <Raystm2> 'real' forths a few years back.
17:27:00 <Razor-X> Scheme comes to real easy.
17:27:11 <Raystm2> yes.
17:27:11 <Razor-X> So I love it :3
17:27:13 <erider> yes
17:27:14 <marble> erider: the calc is reverse polish notation, I thought that steal the : from forth
17:27:30 <erider> ah got it 
17:27:58 <erider> marble: you must have a palm too
17:28:19 <erider> @_@
17:28:28 <Razor-X> Yay Palm!
17:28:33 <Raystm2> Yay Palm!
17:28:51 * Raystm2 got another Palm on E-bay, came last Saterday.
17:28:53 <marble> I have one -- it's a very nice treo 600, heaps or memory, nice bright screen, GPRS (the killer feature) -- but the battery's dead ;.;
17:29:23 <marble> let this be a less to you all -- never buy a device with an intergrated battery
17:29:27 <erider> cool! I have a treo 600 and 650 
17:29:28 <marble> *lesson
17:29:45 <erider> gsm both of them 
17:29:56 <marble> and bluetooth on the 650 :)
17:30:05 <erider> yup 
17:30:11 <erider> and edge 
17:30:12 <marble> (and more importantly -- a replacable battery!)
17:30:34 <erider> yup 
17:31:01 <erider> the keyboard is bigger too 
17:31:06 <Razor-X> I have a Visor.
17:31:08 <Razor-X> Heh.
17:31:09 <marble> I went thought my total connectivity phase -- I now wander the streets without any kind of phone these days
17:31:27 <erider> and it has a better screen 
17:31:39 <marble> erider: one thing I didn't like about the 650 -- NVFS :P
17:31:45 <marble> erider: I know, I know :)
17:32:12 * erider watches movies on his phone 
17:32:31 <erider> 2gb SD is nice 
17:32:42 <marble> must make driving to work difficult :P
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17:33:47 <slava> i want a factor pda :)
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17:33:56 <marble> wb Raystm2 
17:35:17 <marble> slava, is factor yours?
17:35:23 <slava> yes
17:35:26 <Raystm2> am I back. 
17:35:28 <Raystm2> oh thanks marble :)
17:35:30 <Raystm2> heck I was spouting off the most brilliant things i've ever said on IRC, when my son steps on the cord... :)
17:35:32 <Raystm2> chord even
17:35:49 <marble> the 4th, the 5th :)
17:36:15 <Raystm2> factor is absolutely amazing. It's gonna be a future concentration for me. When I'm a little more knowledgeable.
17:36:39 <marble> what's the focus of factor?
17:37:05 <Raystm2> I don't think I've ever read slava say " it can't do that". 
17:37:18 <slava> native threading is one.
17:37:21 <Raystm2> oh.
17:37:25 <slava> i don't plan on that until 2.0
17:37:29 <Raystm2> :)
17:38:47 <erider> Raystm2:  I haven't got it yet with forth. But when they talked about being enlighten after learning lisp I could feel what they were saying like a monk :) 
17:39:00 <Raystm2> from what I can tell, factor ( is it proper to spell it lowercase?) is the only concatenative that has garbage collection,
17:39:13 <slava> don't forget joy and postscript
17:39:31 <Raystm2> See, I didn't know that.
17:40:11 <Raystm2> but slava, factor really does have a unique combination of 'factors' <for want of a better word>
17:40:20 <slava> i think so
17:40:22 <Raystm2> Doesn't it.
17:40:26 <Raystm2> ya I think so too.
17:40:51 <Raystm2> Really cool, the source brower.
17:40:58 <Raystm2> browser even.
17:41:24 <Razor-X> I was also reading about RetroForth.
17:41:47 <Raystm2> AND you got a good bunch of regulars on your #concatenative as well.
17:42:01 <Raystm2> People always working on it.
17:42:03 <erider> juice boxes are good in a pinch :D
17:42:06 <Raystm2> :)
17:42:54 <Raystm2> My wife told me the other day -- "Put this in your juice box and suck it!" :)  I laughed a half hour.
17:43:21 <marble> hmmm... late-binding...
17:44:00 <erider> strawberry kiwi kraze is the heat :) 
17:44:59 <Raystm2> Is that right. :)
17:45:01 <Raystm2> cool. 
17:45:05 <Raystm2> gotta try it now.
17:45:11 <marble> slava: does it have SEE ?
17:45:39 <Raystm2> does it need see? with the browser?
17:45:49 <slava> yes, it has see
17:45:52 <slava> that's what the browser uses
17:46:43 <Raystm2> Cool, slava, I just noticed you got that listpaste2 bot and it anounces the pastes. We should do that. I'll ask JasonWoof if he'll consider setting that up for here and for #retro.
17:48:08 <marble> hmmm... quotation and functional control-structures...
17:49:04 <marble> slava: with support for quotation, do you even need immediates?
17:49:23 <slava> marble: yes, because words like [ ] : ; are immediates
17:50:22 <marble> so they're still words, are not syntax...
17:50:25 <marble> are=and
17:50:26 <slava> yup
17:51:42 <erider> Raystm2: have you figure out the nesting thingy in toka 
17:52:53 <marble> does the browser require javascript ?
17:54:00 <slava> yes
17:58:52 <Raystm2> erider, I havn't looked at toka since crc originally announced it a few months back.
17:59:06 <Raystm2> I'm not on the receive list for the code. 
17:59:59 <erider> Raystm2: I can forward it if you want 
18:02:41 <Raystm2> Not just yet. I'll be patient with that. I've still got my RxChess to work on for now. I'm late with updates.
18:03:25 <Raystm2> I noticed that i've not posted anything since going on Welbutrin. 
18:03:40 <erider> Raystm2: have you add the irc feature yet
18:03:43 <Raystm2> I sleep a lot when I get home now. 
18:04:21 <Raystm2> No, erider, I still have that to do. But then that thing runs in *nix and i'm on WinDoze.
18:04:27 <erider> yeah me too school has been boring 
18:05:03 <erider> i thought crc made a port for you
18:05:39 <marble> factor looks quite big
18:06:03 <Raystm2> If so, i've missed it, or forgot it, but I can remember ever hearing about it.
18:06:25 <slava> marble: that's the point.
18:09:13 <Raystm2> Cool factor is on darcs.
18:10:04 <erider> factor? are you talking about refactoring
18:10:12 <slava> http://factorcode.org/
18:11:51 <Raystm2> erider: have you ever heard of slava's Factor?
18:12:01 <Raystm2> If not, your in for a treat. 
18:12:03 <erider> no
18:12:13 <Raystm2> I believe it has a lot of what you were looking for in Forth.
18:12:37 * erider is already liking it with the Scheme/lisp user's group
18:14:33 <erider> slava: will it run on 64bit system 
18:15:02 <slava> x86-86, yes
18:16:54 <erider> slava: did you created factor in C 
18:17:28 <slava> parts are written in C.
18:20:35 <erider> slava to you have an code example
18:20:43 <slava> there are plenty
18:21:39 <erider> i'm looking for a hello world :) 
18:21:47 <slava> "Hello world" print
18:22:11 <marble> the parser also understands strings ?
18:22:18 <slava> yes
18:22:39 <marble> any other sorts of things?
18:22:58 <slava> all objects have a source literal representation
18:23:28 <erider> cool! its forth with some Scheme features
18:23:44 <slava> yes
18:24:32 <erider> I like the word 'print' that is so correct
18:25:33 <erider> wow! its maps too? slava
18:39:37 <erider> where did slava disappear to?
18:39:44 <slava> i'm here
18:40:14 <erider> interesting forth implementation 
19:00:27 <erider> whats makes one excite about forth Raystm2
19:02:06 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*")
19:24:13 <erider> hmm seems like everyone has went to sleep 
19:24:34 <slava> i'm here
19:24:45 <marble> it's about 3:30am here -- it's about 11:30pm there?
19:25:00 <erider> 10:21
19:25:51 <erider> slava: hey factor crashed well it didn't crash but it put me into debug mode 
19:25:59 <slava> what did you do?
19:26:10 --- quit: virsys ("bah")
19:26:25 <erider> ./f bootstrap.image.amd64 
19:26:34 <erider> which went well 
19:26:52 <slava> try  ./f -shell=tty
19:26:53 <erider> then ./f factor.image
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19:27:54 <erider> scratchpad? 
19:28:04 <slava> type  ui
19:28:28 <erider> Could not get a double-buffered GLX RGBA visual
19:28:53 <slava> ok, i guess your opengl doesn't work
19:29:21 <erider> hmmm 
19:30:57 * marble is off
19:31:00 <marble> later!
19:31:04 <erider> bye!
19:31:14 --- part: marble left #forth
19:31:22 <erider> weird 
19:31:51 <erider> I don't understand why my opengl is not working 
19:32:00 <slava> does glxgears work?
19:32:38 <erider> well I don't think I have that 
19:32:55 <slava> are you using a very old release of x11?
19:33:04 <slava> i thought anything recent comes with mesagl at least.
19:33:07 <slava> what video card do you have?
19:33:08 <erider> ubuntu64
19:33:33 <slava> if you have an nvidia card, install the proprietary nvidia driver for best performance with opengl
19:33:42 <slava> you'll get hardware acceleration
19:34:09 <erider> its a laptop 
19:34:20 <slava> what video hardware does it have?
19:34:39 <slava> anyway, you should really ask in #ubuntu if you want to set up opengl
19:34:39 <erider> AveraBrite 
19:34:47 <slava> its not specific to factor and many programs use opengl
19:35:00 <erider> roger :) 
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.11.21