00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.11.20 00:21:27 --- join: FernetBranca (n=10312F79@d83-180-228-55.cust.tele2.ch) joined #forth 00:21:39 anyone there? 00:22:22 foeck... 00:22:31 cu @ canada 00:22:33 --- part: FernetBranca left #forth 00:43:00 --- join: YoyoFreeB (n=yoyofree@124.114.101.27) joined #forth 00:43:42 --- quit: YoyoFreeB (Client Quit) 03:54:28 --- join: Shine (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-232-172.netcologne.de) joined #forth 03:55:02 --- quit: cmeme ("Client terminated by server") 03:56:02 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 05:09:48 good morning all 05:23:41 --- quit: segher (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:25:14 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-130-197.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 05:54:57 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:14:03 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:14:48 Hello, World! 06:54:28 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 07:05:18 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-26-248.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:05:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 07:31:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:45:27 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 08:42:36 --- join: FernetBranca (n=10312F79@d83-180-228-55.cust.tele2.ch) joined #forth 08:42:49 someone out there 08:42:50 ? 08:43:13 ya 08:43:16 what is up? 08:43:55 i got an androbot 08:44:07 topo II 08:44:08 is it serious? 08:44:10 with s 08:44:11 cool. what is that? :) 08:44:16 will it heal? 08:44:20 There's an ointment. 08:44:40 * Ray_work googles ... 08:44:43 it's got an autogramme of nolan bushnell 08:44:57 speaking of google... 08:44:58 its a very low serial 08:44:59 --- join: marble (n=glass@cpc1-bolt6-0-0-cust18.manc.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 08:45:10 something like 0000340 08:45:16 I saw the name "Google" in a monty python skit today 08:45:30 i want to programme it 08:45:37 CHUCKBOT LIVES! 08:45:38 i got an apple II here 08:45:50 but no superserial card 08:46:03 and no topo-programming-disk 08:46:18 in the manual it means you can programme it with forth 08:46:32 cool. 08:46:38 If it communicates only via serial, and you have no serial port, you're kind of stuck. 08:46:40 it was the first name of the author of a book something like "the rise and fall of rome" 08:47:04 JasonWoof, probably Gugel or something like that. 08:47:39 Quartus: no, it was "google" 08:48:12 I can rewind and find the name of the book 08:48:14 it works TOPO-IRreceiver-IRsender-Apple][serialport 08:49:05 FernetBranca, ok, but you still need a serial port. 08:49:53 has someone a layout for a ... 08:50:12 dont know how to say in english 08:50:23 for an empty... 08:50:31 out of plastic 08:50:56 you can mount resistors, transisitor and else on it 08:51:00 and ICs 08:51:12 how do you call that board? 08:51:16 you want to build your own serial card? 08:51:28 yes 08:51:35 For an Apple II? 08:51:51 the woz has done it 08:51:56 why i cant? 08:52:08 just watched that bit again, it's "Googie" 08:52:18 can someone lay a superserial card on a scanner 08:52:25 just before it goes off the screen it gets clear enough to see the space below the dot of the i 08:52:33 ive got UVlights here 08:52:38 I don't know anyone here who has an Apple II, nevermind a superserial card. 08:52:56 JasonWoof, ah :) 08:53:20 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:53:28 "the rise and fall of the roman empire" a real book 08:53:41 which room should i try? 08:54:09 excluding #wrong-world 08:54:23 I believe the term is "bread board" 08:54:33 breadboard? 08:54:43 dunno why it's called that 08:54:44 broadband? 08:54:59 bread 08:55:04 I don't know. Is there an #apple channel? 08:55:06 like you make sandwitches from 08:55:26 why isnt there an androbot channel? 08:55:29 They're called breadboards probably because in the early days, real breadboards were used. 08:55:39 the plastic grids they use to poke electronics through is called a bread board I believe 08:55:54 it's one word then? 08:56:15 Far as I know. 08:56:20 FernetBranca: have you checked every possible IRC system, not just freenode? 08:56:34 FernetBranca, that's almost an antique robot toy, I have never known anyone else who had one. 08:57:02 yeah, one word. 08:57:19 i got 4 08:57:34 http://www.smallrobot.com/androbot.html 08:57:48 FernetBranca: do you have a computer with a parrallell port? 08:58:30 Sell two of them on ebay, buy a new computer. 08:59:23 i think it has a serial port 08:59:27 you may be able to program your parallel port to do the serial communication 08:59:38 I mean on a modern computer 09:00:00 I think kc5tja did something like this successfully 09:00:07 two years isnt modern, i know 09:03:56 apple II isn't modern 09:04:08 I mean anything in the last 10 years 09:04:29 x86 or such like with a parallel port 09:04:47 is lpt parralel? 09:05:04 i mean LPT 09:07:12 I don't know what that means 09:07:22 I grew up with macs, so I don't know that much about x86 machines 09:07:31 although I recently got an x86 laptop 09:07:57 no parallel port though. The whole machine is about as thick as a parallel port connecter 09:10:53 LPT is parallel. 09:11:12 can i use lpT? 09:14:49 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:16:53 not easily. 09:41:32 4 androbots? how much did they cost? 09:44:08 35000 CHF 09:46:07 oh.. and what can they do? moving around and crashing against obstacles? bah.. seems to be a waste of money. 09:50:13 what's chf? is that francs? 09:52:14 so about $28000? That seems high. 09:52:54 Unless the going rate for a 22-year-old toy robot really is $7000. 10:01:50 yikes 10:02:18 if you've got that kind of money, can't you buy some sort of adapter to do the serial? 10:05:26 personally I think for that money I could buy a new roboter from sony.. which does more stuff 10:19:42 --- quit: lukeparrish (Remote closed the connection) 10:22:12 --- quit: marble (".") 10:23:41 --- join: marble (n=glass@cpc1-bolt6-0-0-cust18.manc.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 10:33:13 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2183346 10:33:18 lo 10:33:29 --- join: abionnnn (n=abiogen4@l3-202-89-188-44.arach.net.au) joined #forth 10:43:26 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:50:37 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:51:06 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 10:52:16 --- join: Snoopy42_ (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-108-008.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:57:04 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 11:00:40 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 11:01:02 --- nick: Snoopy42_ -> Snoopy42 11:14:44 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:21:11 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54896894.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:35:30 thats 20 years ago 11:35:58 more money in the 80s 11:41:22 I think he meant "how much did you pay for them". 11:44:01 and i said 35000 11:44:16 in the 80s there were better times 11:44:18 --- part: FernetBranca left #forth 11:45:32 slash join sharp 80's then. /me checks attitude. Yup, for some unknown reason, the attitude is rude today. :( 11:47:28 --- quit: abionnnn ("Leaving") 11:49:33 there I took a pill. 11:49:43 20 minutes and the attitude will be checked. 11:49:43 hi Ray_work 11:49:54 Hey e! long time. What's new? 11:50:24 * Ray_work = Palm jockey again. 11:50:37 Got my "new" one Saterday afternoon. 11:50:38 nothing new atm still working on trying to be better at factoring 11:50:59 I love how easy it was to get this one up to speed with where the last one was at. 11:51:54 Cool. Good talent to build. 11:52:06 I've been reading the Quartus Forth memos. 11:52:20 re the battery, I advise against constantly charging it. Wait till it runs down. 11:52:22 I do love a modular system. 11:52:28 really? where are they posted 11:52:34 Quartus: Thanks for tip! :) 11:52:55 oh sorry, erider, a memo is the way that Quartus stores source on the Palm. 11:52:59 I have been playing around with crc toka 11:53:15 ah got it :) 11:53:18 oh cool. I haven't seen that thing since the first invention of it. 11:53:30 I have loaded the memos yet 11:53:35 on my treo 11:53:53 * Ray_work suddenly jealous of erider. 11:54:16 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 11:54:16 color/sound not to mention a phone. 11:54:25 :) 11:54:52 I love it but I wish it have built in wifi 11:54:58 s/have/had 11:55:37 wifi drains battery very quickly. 11:56:16 hmm maybe but I like having the speed :) 11:56:34 speed? 11:57:02 vs what, gprs? 11:57:09 yes 11:57:31 not worth much if you only get 30 mins out of it. 11:57:57 maybe but I would feel better lol 11:59:34 good evening chaps. 11:59:44 hi zpg 12:00:50 hi erider, Q, Ray 12:01:15 hey 12:01:34 --- part: marble left #forth 12:06:28 Hi zpg :) 12:06:56 howdy 12:09:26 Got customers? cuz I do. :) 12:12:01 at 2011? 12:12:03 nope 12:18:56 * Ray_work forgets the 'time-zone' thingy 12:19:25 I don't know why I couldn't do this job from the comfort of my bed at la casa. 12:20:00 Gotta be more like Neal and earn anytime of day or night. 12:21:09 be cheaper for my boss to provide me a top of the line system, then to have to open the doors here, day in day out. 12:33:26 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 12:37:26 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 13:04:15 --- join: timlarson___ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 13:10:34 --- quit: timlarson__ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:20:49 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@136.160.196.114) joined #forth 13:29:15 hey rabbitwhite. 13:29:39 hey i pmed raystm2 13:29:59 --- quit: timlarson___ ("Leaving") 13:38:10 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 13:44:48 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:51:18 --- quit: rabbitwhite () 14:11:21 --- join: I440r (n=spam@70.102.202.164) joined #forth 14:24:09 --- quit: Shine (Nick collision from services.) 14:24:13 --- join: Shine_ (n=Frank_Bu@xdsl-81-173-234-214.netcologne.de) joined #forth 14:24:26 --- nick: Shine_ -> Shine 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(n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@dsl-roigw1-fe8ade00-21.dhcp.inet.fi) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- join: larsb (i=lars@1-1-14-10a.kt.gbg.bostream.se) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 15:09:02 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +oo Quartus_ Quartus 15:13:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 15:13:51 --- nick: Snoopy42_ -> Snoopy42 15:32:01 --- join: Zarutian (n=Zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 15:37:32 looks like its going to be a quiet day 15:57:39 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:58:43 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 16:04:40 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 16:13:18 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 16:15:32 Quartus: Has working in Forth improved your work in say c? 16:16:15 hi Raystm2 16:16:51 Hi erider. Good day, so far? 16:17:33 whats the question that you are asking about 16:18:59 Hi Raystm2. Yes, for sure. 16:19:14 I knew that, and asked for eriders benefit. 16:19:45 The other day, I mentioned to you, erider, that forth will improve your work in other languages. 16:19:55 It has to do with the way you think about problems. 16:20:10 You said you were working on factoring, how's that comming? 16:20:34 so will lisp :) 16:21:03 I don't think lisp has as significant an effect. 16:21:51 * erider is unable to compare yet he is still learning forth 16:22:00 erider, I think the lisp idea of coding per contract is neat, builds great tests, but not as agile as forth. 16:22:42 You would have to do some significant re-coding, when factoring forth style, I would assume. 16:23:03 * erider but his is starting to like forth its a good conversational piece with the ladies :) 16:23:10 Is it? 16:23:11 :) 16:23:18 The kind of ladies that play a lot of golf, maybe. 16:23:47 My wife likes me to explain it to her when she can't sleep. Solves that problem with out much factoring. :) 16:24:01 There are very few women in the entire field. 16:26:05 it is interesting to them 16:26:22 Where are you from again? 16:29:45 maryland 16:30:05 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 16:30:18 Maryland, USA, where women are fascinated to hear men talk about technical subjects? Earth? Same planet I'm on? 16:31:46 yup 16:32:12 k 16:32:26 I talk to girls who what to work at NSA when they are older 17:07:19 curious. 17:08:33 For what it's worth, i'd say that Lisp does have a notable impact on the way in which I code in other languages. similarly with Smalltalk. Different paradigms open up different ways of thinking about HCI and approaches to the same problem or goal. 17:13:56 :) 17:16:27 I agree, but I think the effect is more pronounced with Forth than, say, with Lisp. 17:24:16 I don't understand why, but I haven't got forth yet. I'm not getting it completely. 17:25:19 you won't get it by reading about it. You need to write code. 17:26:53 I haven't been able to figure out what I want to write using forth yet 17:27:25 there are always basic exercises. 17:29:47 I hope its not math stuff I get that all day in class and its not fun needed but not fun 17:30:22 what basic exercises you choose are up to you. 17:38:19 find an interesting algorithm in, say, wikipedia, and set about implementing that. 17:43:31 Has anyone played around with ColorForth? 17:53:50 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:54:20 ask Raystm2 17:54:32 Raystm2: Have you played around with ColorForth? 17:56:02 He has. 17:57:28 That must be fun. Having that much control. 17:57:33 he did some chess games with it and a botgame for learning, how was it again called? 17:57:53 I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'that much control'. 17:58:11 Well, a Forth from the ASM up on a Pentium system. 17:58:28 You have the same control under, say, Gforth. 17:58:50 Razor-X, yeah, it would be when it would be more documented, but so you try to understand chucks assembler code which isn't really self explaining btw. 17:58:56 Really? 17:59:01 @ Quartus 17:59:16 Sure. You can write assembler under Gforth, program right down to the metal. 17:59:26 Fun. 17:59:53 yes you can, but I don't think that gforth and colorforth are comperable. 18:00:37 one is standalone and the other runs ontop of an OS, nor they share the same concepts. 18:01:04 Also, how are the new ideas Chuck added to ColorForth? I've been meaning to get a handle on conventional Forth first before something like ColorForth. 18:01:32 I use it only as an example. If you want a native Forth, then, say, some of crc's stuff might be suitable. Either way, the level of control is the same. 18:02:11 conventional forth doesn't exist in fact, but there exist broad dialects of forth the current one of this ANSI Forth. 18:02:23 Well, ANS Forth then, happy? :) 18:02:47 happy? not me. 18:02:51 Razor-X, I don't see a lot of new concepts in colorForth. Its novelties are mostly in the fact that the source is coloured, and as such requires a special editor to convert it into the object form the compiler requires. It's a minimal Forth, lacking a number of features that you find in most others. 18:04:02 And his odd Dvorak keyboard thingamabobber. But I imagine someone has written a QWERTY driver too. 18:04:04 Given that many people think that even Standard Forth is minimal, to say that colorForth is even more minimal is quite a statement. 18:04:54 come on, you won't me tell that opening immediately after startup a file you call a feature? 18:05:13 I have no idea what that means. 18:06:48 for others like Quartus Forths like ColorForth are to minimal to do anything and for others like me they don't include unecessary stuff at startup. 18:07:49 btw. we had a lot of flamewars about this. 18:08:09 Razor-X, colorForth uses a special keyboard layout, is missing most control structure words, etc. It's an exercise in minimalism. 18:08:39 I can't see why there can't be two sides to it. 18:08:59 There are definitely times I want a bunch of well-done libraries, and other times I want something very minimal. Whether for play or fun. 18:09:10 Errr... 18:09:14 *play or work 18:10:09 well, for that a small minimalism forth core with the ability to include everything else. 18:11:06 Razor-X, sure, I like a small system that can be expanded, too. colorForth goes the other way, though, toward absolute minimalism. I find the fact that it requires a special editor to be a major barrier to entry. 18:11:24 and I don't know any forths except perhaps retroforth which can do this trick. 18:19:48 The colours make it cumbersome to discuss in, say, IRC or UseNet. The special keyboard layout is a completely unnecessary thing that is part and parcel because it's a side-interest of Chuck's. 18:20:25 in fact he wrote it only for himself 18:21:03 before understanding chucks code it's more effective to start writing your own implementation. 18:24:02 chuck is a busy man 18:24:19 So while it appears to be quite different, from a Forth language perspective I don't see anything particularly new in it. 18:26:06 new in the sense of something which lets you stand up and saying yeah, then not. but in the sense of putting existing things in an interesting way together then yes. 18:27:38 Using text attributes as syntax is not new; neither are minimal keyboards, nor languages requiring special editors. 18:28:05 I don't see that any of those three things are synergistic, but perhaps there's something I'm missing. 18:29:56 I think Terry Loveall implemented a colorForth with WERTY keyboard and no coloration: http://www.modest-proposals.com/ModProg.htm 18:34:18 Digging through that, I can't find any actual source of programs written to compile under it. 18:35:19 I see some .p files -- they don't seem to have any syntactic markers that would substitute for colours. 18:36:45 Have you used this? Is it more than simply 'inspired by'? I can't see much of colorForth in it outside of the !A (and similar) words, maybe some of the control structure stuff. 18:37:21 sorry, A! I mean. The A register stuff. 18:38:21 This one seems to have begin/while/repeat and all the expected bells & whistles. 18:38:22 and that now was filled by chuck into his seaforth chip 18:38:55 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 18:39:43 Quartus any suggestions on exercises that can get me going with forth? 18:40:05 erider, find an algorithm that interests you and implement it in Forth as best you can. The problems you encounter will guide your learning. 18:40:46 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 18:40:52 hmm interesting approach 18:41:16 If no algorithms interest you, you aren't a programmer; in that case, give up now. :) 18:41:51 :) 18:43:42 hi 18:44:30 Hi snowrichard 18:44:48 got a new tv. HD and satellite 18:45:19 There are lots of interesting but simple algorithms. 18:45:22 Sounds good, snowrichard. :) 18:46:02 Quartus: isn't 4word a colorforth? I must admit I haven't looked at them carefully, just his descriptions... 18:46:41 vatic, as far as I can tell it's a pretty ordinary Forth. I haven't dug into it, but the sources that are in the archive are not peculiar at all. 18:47:01 Quartus do you start you forth design on paper then move to the keyboard 18:47:27 erider, I don't use actual paper all that often, I write out my design on the computer, but the general idea is the same. 18:47:29 * erider needs something sweet hmm 18:50:19 In the 4word .p files, there's an abundance of ']' which I think takes a string from the stack, looks it up, and compiles a call to it, which is an unfactoring of something you'd hopefully have in the actual parser. 18:50:23 So that's weird. 18:51:10 Not a colorForth weirdness, but particular to this thing. 18:54:13 Quartus: hmmm... 19:10:49 By the by, for fun: 19:10:49 :noname 2dup sfnumber if 2drop else save-mem then ; is interpreter-notfound 19:10:49 :noname name-too-short? header, ; is (header) 19:10:51 Then... 19:10:58 hello : ." Hello!" ; 19:11:13 (Gforth 0.6.2 btw) 19:11:45 compiler-notfound can also be revectored, and then anything not found winds up as a persistent string on the stack, and you can handle it as you like -- if you want to toy with the notion of handling everything by hand. 19:14:43 Of course if you want to redefine an existing word, you'd have to do something like s" hello" : ... ; 19:14:55 And you're back to forward parsing, so nothing gained. 19:17:20 I suppose the thing about colorForth, is the thing as a whole. It's not just the keyboard with limited symbols, or the display with limited words, or the 19:17:44 Quartus can you give me a head start on the words in forth that I should study more than others 19:17:53 "syntax" with limited constructions, or the fact that it's a bondage language... 19:17:55 erider, that would depend on what you're trying to do. 19:18:20 It's remarkably agile. It's an experiament in " Just how much is necessary". 19:18:47 I want to parse files for text so kind of pattern matching 19:18:54 It's been quite dead for years. 19:18:59 erider, then you need the file words, certainly. 19:19:18 Raystm2, I guess. An exercise in minimalism, as I said. 19:21:01 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:22:06 Quartus: so you would say that are are certain words that one should focus on or at least know more than others? 19:22:24 erider, if you want to handle files, you'll need to know how to open a file, read a line, close a file. 19:22:33 So that's one starting-place. 19:22:35 Quartus: and what do you mean by minimalism 19:23:09 minimalism is cutting things away until you can't cut any more and still get anything done at all. 19:23:21 I understand that but I'm talking about regularly used words 19:24:19 I was talking about minimalism as regards colorForth, not as regards what you should learn. 19:25:01 that is interesting but it seems a little reinventing the wheelis 19:25:08 What does? 19:25:20 minimalism 19:25:22 You say minimalism and the flavor of colorForth is tained by "I couldn't possibly do something productive with it". Hmm, I wonder if all forthers shouldn't be made to contribute to it. Being frustrated because you could find a possible thing it truely needs could be fun in itself. 19:25:49 could/n't+ 19:26:32 Raystm2, it's largely undocumented, used by Chuck to make OKAD and -- anything else? Uses a non-standard keyboard layout, a special editor, and features inaccessibility to anyone with colour-differentiation issues. So it's not a question of frustration being fun or not, at least not for me. 19:26:35 * erider vanishes 19:29:43 As you've pointed out. Imagine how proud of myself I was the first day I got something going in it. Steep hill to climb, you would say? 19:31:09 To answer that, have a look at this: http://www.willard-wigan.com/ 19:31:16 ok :) 19:32:16 neat. :) 19:32:56 So there are some who take special thrill in working with extraordinarily limited resources so as, I assume, to magnify their sense of accomplishment. 19:33:24 oooh :) hehe 19:33:49 You have to admit. It was a big accomplishment for someone with my background. 19:34:03 I don't consider microscopic sculptures to be a step forward in sculpture, any more than I consider ultra-minimalist Forth implementations to be a step forward in programming. 19:34:50 It's the sense of accomplishment in that ``Yes! I proved the theorem right!'' way. 19:34:52 Honestly, Ray, if you could accomplish a working program in colorForth, my reaction is to think what a great deal of wasted energy; think what you could have accomplished in a system that didn't fight you every step of the way? 19:36:00 I have promised to not speak of colorforth when a newbie is asking you to explain Forth. I would hope that you can appreciate that there are people who delight in such things, and leave us to it. 19:36:07 Is the result faster? Better? More widely applicable? Portable? Or was it simply much harder to write? 19:37:01 Raystm2, if you entertain yourself by only working with one hand, or in the dark, or with dull tools, or whatever floats your boat -- you'll carry on doing it no matter what I might opine about it. 19:38:47 Faster i don't know. Better is subjective. Applicable, most likely not. Portable, sure any one who understands the idea can code it themselves in some version on their machine. Harder to write? That I can't answer. But will you shake people off of a learning experiance that just might turn the Forth light on for them. I mean, working in the most minimal is a great start and leads to greater understanding of the larger systems. Or so 19:39:26 You were cut off after ``Or so'' 19:39:37 I firmly believe colorForth is a flat dead-end for anyone new to Forth, your own personal experience notwithstanding. I can't think of any better way to discourage a newcomer. 19:39:46 ... it did for me. /ends 19:39:58 phone have to go get Nan, brb. 19:52:23 Quartus: I agree 19:53:09 Ya so do I... I wouldn't wish it on a friend. 19:53:22 oh back. :) 19:54:06 But I wouldn't discourage either. That person just might have the hutzpa to get it to do something interesting. 19:54:27 trouble is there's no good way to learn how to use colorforth 19:54:30 at least not that I'm aware of 19:54:43 I also think it's been a colossal waste of years of Chuck's talents, as well, but that's his call. 19:54:48 There is only one path... 19:55:04 Quartus: you don't think he's getting enough use out of it? 19:55:21 Quartus: I thought he wrote it to design chips with and such 19:55:24 Well if anything, he makes interesting ideas. 19:55:26 What has he produced? OKAD, as I recall. Anything else? 19:55:37 We really don't know. 19:55:41 perhaps just okad 19:55:43 And OKAD isn't available to the public, or is it? 19:55:49 no 19:56:01 In a way, I suppose it is. 19:56:03 I don't get the impression that chuck is doing anything much for the public 19:56:08 a few presentations 19:56:14 sharing some code he wrote for himself 19:56:35 So I have no idea if he's getting enough use out of it for his own sake. I think it's a dead-end, both as a programming technique and as an intellectual exercise; it's in that light that I think it's a waste. 19:56:36 You would have to actually read Fox's site to get all the particulars, code it all in colorForth so you wouldn't have to enter it with debug... 19:57:32 Quartus: sure, I don't think it's going anywhere. But I think it could have been worth it to him, because of OKAD and for the exercise 19:58:03 JasonWoof, maybe. No way to wind back and have him do it over with existing tools. 19:59:55 I don't think there's much to be found down the alley of 'how much can we cut away until it completely falls over', not in language design, and not in keyboard design. 20:00:07 It's still Forth. You can still use it to do what you would do with Forth. You just have to write what you need. 20:00:16 Quartus: agreed 20:00:38 There is no wall there. 20:00:54 save that you're starting with colorForth. 20:00:57 Raystm2: the trouble for me is that the constraints of the implementation push me towards worse coding standards 20:01:11 I'm thinking of the name length issues 20:01:47 I frequently have different words who's first 8 letters are the same 20:01:49 and I like it that way 20:02:02 Ya, me too, there is that. 20:02:10 and I think it's a horrid waste of time to work in an edditing environment that doesn't have search features 20:02:32 But I say that if you really needed it, it could be added. We are still talking Forth here. 20:02:49 I suspect chuck does everything very slowly, and that's fine, but I don't like to 20:03:10 Chuck hung on to the three-chars-plus-length like a crazed bulldog, long after memory constraints obviated it. He was into single-digit-keys keyboards for awhile. He likes bare-bones stuff. That's fine, like that guy who carves single atoms into figurines. It just isn't progress. 20:03:17 Raystm2: sure, you could add just about anything. But I think it'd be quicker to just start from scratch 20:04:04 Ya, JasonWoof, I think you would have to to add longer names. 20:04:19 Raystm2: I wrote 80% of fronds in under a year 20:04:34 in my spare time 20:04:40 Elizabeth Rather says he used to throw out previous projects and start from scratch every time, to her great frustration at trying to get anything actually done for the customer. 20:04:54 I read that as well. :) 20:04:55 I think it would take way way more work to get colorforth to be any where near as useful 20:05:18 JasonWoof: what did you take from colorForth for fronds? 20:05:54 Raystm2: the A register, and the idea of coding the color into the source tokens 20:05:58 What did crc take from it for retroForth? 20:06:02 ya. 20:06:05 I remember. 20:06:08 ;then and a surfeit of control-structure words 20:06:26 ya. 20:06:48 * erider is wondering why we need more forth implementations 20:06:59 erider we don't. 20:07:04 we really don't. 20:07:05 To which my response is : ;then postpone exit postpone then ; immediate and we can get on with our lives, occasionally using begin/while/repeat as required. :) 20:07:08 That's something I've been seeing too. Each Forth handles something differently. 20:07:38 I'm sticking to gForth now. 20:07:47 Razor-X, so thank heavens for standardization; a point of reliable stability. 20:07:50 I think most forths are written as an experiment and/or learning tool 20:07:54 Yes. Definitely. 20:07:57 Razor-X hehe, who could blame you 20:08:29 It's also sad that, like the Scheme world, anything that has to do with playing with an underlying OS is totally implementation dependant. 20:08:50 how could in not be? 20:08:55 (Though R6RS is supposed to mend this for Scheme.) 20:09:07 Well, make some things universal over the distributions. 20:09:11 Razor-X, that's not entirely the case, as various Forths can ffi down to the same library functions any language might use. 20:09:14 depends which OS lies underneath 20:10:05 Standard Forth provides an interface to file-access, and I/O. 20:12:01 But otherwise -- Microsoft's C has different access to the underlying OS than does GCC, or LCC, or Borland C, etc. Different structure alignment/padding. Different register allocation. 20:12:05 As an example. 20:12:19 people are crazy "PS3" 20:12:32 Depending on what you're doing, if you want your sources to compile under multiple C compilers, you have to accomodate them with various ifdefs. 20:12:42 So there's no magic homogeneity that is somehow missing from Forth. 20:15:00 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 20:15:23 are there a lot of libraries out there for forth to be used by the public 20:18:07 Errm. Sorry, I had a bunch of lag. 20:18:07 Hmm. I was thinking that, yeah. It seems the standardization in stuff like C simply comes from the userbase of one particular implementation. 20:18:07 Is it just me, or is there little on hash tables in Forth? 20:18:46 What are you trying to do? 20:19:04 I was gonna try out LZW compression. 20:20:09 For that you need lookup, but not necessarily hashed. 20:20:14 Hashing would be an optimization. 20:20:20 True. 20:23:07 --- join: iano (n=iosgood@sub26-46.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 20:25:20 erider, there's a good thing to write -- a general-purpose hashtable facility. 20:25:34 Lots of learning potential in that. 20:27:08 --- quit: iano (Client Quit) 20:27:57 maybe not a good thing to start with for learning Forth, if you don't already know already hashtables, because then you have to learn both, Forth and the algorithm 20:28:16 All good stuff to learn, though. 20:29:18 is there a hashtable implementation in ANS Forth defined? 20:30:09 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 20:30:57 In the Standard itself? 20:31:32 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 20:31:36 or in some optional word set 20:31:49 I've seen a couple floating about, but there's nothing official. 20:32:23 would be nice to have more optional word sets, e.g. for network etc. 20:33:43 Sure. Great to have extensions. 21:00:09 The cross-compilation stuff is one such additional wordset. 21:04:10 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54895762.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:11:51 Quartus: yes, and it is a good base for cross-compilation, however it doesn't say much about how to implement the actual compiler 21:12:41 Right. Implementation details are always absent. 21:12:52 That's by design. 21:14:48 yes, I understand this, because different architectures might need very different implementation concepts, but I wish there would be a real-life example how it could be used 21:16:17 It's in practical use by Pelc, at least, so if you have specific questions you might get a good answer from c.l.f 21:16:33 There is an appendix, also, that might shed some light. 21:17:39 what or who is Pelc? 21:17:46 Stephen Pelc, MPE. 21:17:51 ok 21:18:27 http://www.mpeforth.com/ 21:18:33 Regular contributor to c.l.f. 21:23:34 found an interesting paper: http://www.mpeforth.com/arena/insidevfx.pdf Looks like it is really fast (of course, micro-benchmarks are not very useful) 21:24:24 The VFX stuff is akin to the kind of optimization C compilers do. A more complex approach, but pretty good results speed-wise. 21:32:11 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E05582.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:35:21 --- quit: nighty (Remote closed the connection) 21:48:52 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:51:22 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 23:01:36 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:03:49 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.11.20