00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.11.09 00:04:07 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:50:07 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 01:32:13 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:40:21 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 01:41:54 morning. 01:42:18 Hey. 01:44:51 hi Quartus -- what time's it there, late evening? 01:45:10 quarter to 5 AM 01:45:46 seriously? so you're onlt 5 hours back. you're on the East Coast? 01:46:02 Right. 01:46:05 (excuse my swiss-cheese memory) 01:46:10 Toronto. 01:46:14 * zpg nods 01:46:31 all these leaps have evidently messed with my memory. 01:47:24 i see vatic has been playing with MacForth 01:47:34 I guess I missed that. 01:48:22 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth.mac/browse_frm/thread/3dc46683df6c4cf0/7a7ce65ea0b3c43d#7a7ce65ea0b3c43d 01:48:38 Not a group I read. 01:48:40 Hmm. Are F21s made at all? 01:49:12 F21? Is that something Jeff Fox was associated with? 01:49:19 The Forth chips. 01:50:09 I have no idea if anything associated with Ultratechnology was ever actually made. 01:50:19 heh 01:50:46 Heh. 01:50:55 I've never heard of anyone actually seeing and touching any production units; I have heard several complaints from people who wonder why they can't do so. 01:51:13 Well, low-cost computer systems sound appealing. 01:51:37 In our public high school, there is a somewhat significant amount of people who can't afford very capable computers. 01:52:07 surely an old 486 is more feasible 01:52:12 where do you live? 01:52:13 I recommend Palm devices, older models. Available very cheaply. Quite a capable little computer. 01:52:19 California in the USA. 01:52:25 Yeah, I have an older Palm myself. 01:52:28 I love it to death. 01:52:45 Contrast-inverting backlight and all. 01:52:54 i'm quite a fan too. 01:53:14 Was thinking of putting Quartus Forth on it :) 01:53:25 but in terms of cheap general purpose computing, surely you could pick up an old PC for peanuts, especially in the states? stick a BSD on it, if need be with a light Window MAnager. 01:53:27 an excellent choice :) 01:53:36 i agree 01:54:18 Quartus: how did QF come about by the way? did you get a Palm a decide that you wanted to develop in Forth for it? was there a cross-compiler before QF proper came into being? 01:54:30 Well, Ultratechnology does boast $5 computers. 01:54:40 Ultratechnology boasts, certainly. 01:54:51 from what I've seen of Fox, he's all boast. 01:54:54 Hmm. More hot air than not? 01:55:10 I bought a Palm in its initial USR Pilot incarnation because I discovered that it's programmable. From there I thought it'd be great to be able to code right on the face of the device, and Forth was an obvious choice. 01:55:32 Razor-X, except for the 'not' part. 01:55:41 Heh. 01:55:47 I can't comment on his ability, but his usenet comments and the SVFIG lecture I saw suggest he's quite the font of arrogance. 01:55:57 Quartus: neat. 01:56:18 In general too, a Forth-on-metal sounds fun to play around with. I've been getting my hands with in gForth mainly. 01:56:29 *with = wet 01:56:41 The Palm is 68K-based (even the newest ones run 68K code), and that's a very nice chip. 01:57:13 Yeah, I was thinking about that. But isn't the documentation for the Palm relatively closed as far as the ROM goes? 01:57:28 I know Visors are unflashable, which is what I have. 01:57:43 Closed? What do you mean? 01:57:44 'fun' is definitely applicable. productive too. i'm new to forth, but think i'm beginning to get the hang of it; i'm pretty pleased with the results so far, most of which have been written in a kitchen beside a freshly brewed cup of tea 01:57:51 It's a very-well-documented api. 01:57:55 Oh. 01:58:19 incidentally, i haven't mentioned this yet but: 01:58:28 I really like Forth in a way I can't quite describe. 01:58:40 In a way that's totally different from other languages I've coded in. 01:58:49 zpg, Dijkstra said that an important quality of a programming language is that it be able to be loved, and he wasn't kidding; if a craftsman doesn't love his tools he can't do really good work. 01:59:26 my list code is based on doubles, so you can store a string in a cons cell, or a double, etc. on top of this, i built an associative array that takes a counted string as the least-significant entry (key) and any value (XT, etc.) as the value of the association. this is working really nicely. 01:59:33 Quartus: yeah, that sounds apt. 01:59:45 C has always felt so hackish, but is the only thing I've seen with metaphors capable of working at the low-level without going to ASM. Forth seems like a beauty here. 02:00:05 Razor-X: you should look at Lisp and Smalltalk too. 02:00:12 I'm a big fan of Scheme. 02:00:19 Haven't done much searching into SmallTalk. 02:00:33 Along with Forth, those three (for me) evoke a very different impression. Lispers always talk about elegance, and they're not kidding. Similarly with Smalltalk. 02:00:33 zpg, an associative list is a natural application of linked-lists, though of course speed would demand something faster, like hashed chains. 02:00:45 yes, of course. 02:00:51 Forth and Scheme are my two favorite languages of choice. 02:01:07 Difference between O(n) and O(1). 02:01:15 i was damned pleased with the speed at which I added a (what I'm calling, following Smalltalk) dictionary. 02:01:34 You should probably call it an associative array, save the confusion. :) 02:01:40 heh, this is true 02:01:42 Heh. 02:01:47 Anywho, good night everyone. 02:01:51 Ciao! 02:01:56 night Razor-X 02:02:03 I'm not crazy like Quartus tonight, up at 5 AM :P 02:02:06 heh 02:02:11 (But will be up an hour later.) 02:02:11 I keep odd hours. 02:02:31 me too. 02:02:37 though I think 10am is pretty sensible for being awake. 02:02:50 I have school, so 6 AM is when I wake up. 02:02:50 normality and all that. 02:03:00 Razor-X: you're a student at this high school? 02:03:01 I need 4 if I want a caffeine free day. 02:03:04 zpg: Yah. 02:03:07 * zpg nods 02:03:16 sleep well. 02:03:20 Thanks. 02:05:45 I wonder whether vatic had MacForth already or decided to obtain it recently. It seems a bit deprecated, though appearances may be deceiving. 02:06:16 I don't know. I have two Macs but they're quite old and just take up space. 02:06:39 * zpg nods 02:07:10 --- join: FighterLevel4 (n=tits@pool-71-106-175-237.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) joined #forth 02:07:22 for older macs, it seems macforth was a nice environment for development. it seems to have been carbonized, but i'm not sure whether the code has just been patched up and carried forward. 02:07:31 Can't say. 02:07:38 foth dead? 02:07:41 i'm happy with gforth as it is. 02:07:43 FighterLevel4: no. 02:07:49 how learn forth? 02:07:53 on linux? 02:07:56 FighterLevel4, gforth. 02:08:06 book to learn? 02:08:09 FighterLevel4: what Quartus said. then check the links at the top of the page. 02:08:21 Check the links in the topic. 02:08:28 Books there. 02:08:31 http://home.claranet.nl/users/mhx/sf.html 02:08:34 for example. 02:09:08 Marcel seems to paste some good material to usenet incidentally. 02:09:15 albeit iForth specific. 02:09:25 His iForth-specific stuff annoys me. 02:09:49 Especially as he touts it as Standard with extensions, which is only partly true. It's also important to provide the extensions in Standard form. 02:09:49 I think I tried some out without realised it was non-standard a few weeks back 02:09:56 then noticed the (* ... *) comments 02:10:21 I have ranted about that previously, I think. -- (* DOC ENDDOC etc etc. 02:10:28 yeah 02:10:44 I am strongly against trivial renamings. 02:10:58 well as I see it, if QF can be ANS-compliant on the Palm, larger systems can build their extensions on a portable base. 02:11:23 I would think so. 02:12:06 I certainly find that, as I'm new to Forth, the whole ANS- vs- non-ANS- was a confusing question to be asked when I inquired into where to start? (obviously, it's stupid asking someone whether they want to learn variant A or B when they know nothing of either) 02:12:32 but each forth having particular quirks is clear cause for confusion. 02:12:41 Well, to deliberately ghettoize yourself by learning some peculiar dialect would be clearly the wrong initial approach. 02:12:48 agreed. 02:13:00 I don't see that that's a debatable point. 02:13:08 this has been validated already -- using QF and gforth, I can write in the same dialect without confusion. 02:13:35 actually, i can go further and copy memos out of PDesktop into files, and run them directly on the laptop. 02:13:38 (v. v. neat) 02:13:40 And you're speaking the same tongue as the largest group of practitioners. 02:13:51 Agreed. 02:14:35 As I see it, most of the ANS stuff is fairly solid. It even has optional appendices, so I get the impression you could write a minimal ANS- system without too much fuss (if you're writing a Forth already that is) 02:15:04 The core wordset is the only one required of an implementation, and even that can be provided in source to whatever extent is required. 02:15:22 yep 02:15:44 but if that was at the base of iForth, then the iForth specific stuff could be written in an ANS source file and ported. 02:15:55 needs iforth 02:15:55 etc 02:16:24 Sure. 02:16:41 Most of the iForth junk can be emulated anyway: : -- postpone \ ; immediate and so on. 02:16:58 gavino, did you check out the links in the topic? 02:18:03 gavino or FighterLevel4 ? 02:18:24 Same guy. 02:19:02 ah 02:19:23 forth seems powerful wow 02:19:29 Computer-language troll. Specific breed. 02:19:30 why dont people use it to teach? 02:19:39 Gavin, don't. Just stop. 02:19:43 Im a wolf-goblin 02:19:47 gavin? 02:19:51 howd you know my name? 02:19:56 Yeah, Gavin W. Schuette. 02:20:02 hey thats me 02:20:05 howd u know that 02:20:05 Yes it is. Bye. 02:20:11 heh 02:20:12 --- mode: Quartus set +b *!*@pool-71-106-175-237.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net 02:20:16 --- kick: FighterLevel4 was kicked by Quartus (Quartus) 02:20:56 That took about 4 seconds. His IP resolves to Santa Monica, and there's no way there's two people that stupid and annoying in all of California. 02:21:15 heh 02:21:19 I don't know about that.... 02:21:28 You can see his latest stupidity in comp.lang.list, under 'gavino'. 02:21:33 sorry. Comp.lang.lisp. 02:22:00 --- mode: Quartus set -b+b *!*@pool-71-106-175-237.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net *!*@*.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net 02:22:54 * zpg nods 02:23:00 Gavin is a special case. He's been trolling for more than a decade. He used to post pornographic stories to a Buckminster Fuller discussion list; that got his UCLA email address cancelled. 02:23:24 odd. 02:23:48 i better go recharge on coffee. back in a sec. 02:23:52 k 02:42:41 back 02:42:47 Hey. 02:43:00 Up to much? 02:43:16 Heading sleepward shortly. Been writing. 02:46:31 --- join: fridge (n=fridge@dsl-220-253-77-54.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 02:51:02 HI 02:51:04 ah good stuff 02:51:15 --- part: fridge left #forth 02:51:16 what have you achieved so far, book-wise? 02:51:43 A fair body of code, and a collection of assorted texts that I am working to knit together. 02:52:04 neat 02:52:24 is this an introduction to Forth, or a comprehensive look at Forth in 2006? 02:52:45 It's Standard Forth; I hope for it to reach introductory and experienced audiences, both. 02:52:59 Good stuff. 02:54:34 Off for a bit! 02:57:42 k, me too 02:58:07 talk later, cheers for now. 02:58:09 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 03:47:11 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 06:32:02 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA ERROR") 06:32:59 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 06:35:48 --- quit: madwork (Client Quit) 06:38:12 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 06:42:38 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:43:29 --- quit: Razor-X (Remote closed the connection) 06:46:17 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 06:51:57 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 07:38:23 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 07:39:24 hi 07:55:22 hi 07:57:10 I just looked at the log of the channel and have to say, that Jeff Fox actually had working f21 and I've seen it 07:57:58 it was not "production" level thought 08:00:08 *though* 08:02:39 /nick nanstm 08:02:50 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 08:07:16 hi nanstm, forther 08:13:03 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 08:18:35 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:21:18 --- join: Ray-work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 08:22:05 --- quit: Ray-work (Client Quit) 08:25:09 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:25:19 Hello, everybody! 08:27:03 --- join: marble (n=glass@cpc1-bolt6-0-0-cust18.manc.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 08:38:20 --- part: forther left #forth 08:40:56 --- quit: virl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:42:40 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 09:37:55 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate") 09:43:07 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489780A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:51:47 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:28:05 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-11ac6c40424ef246) joined #forth 10:37:17 hey 10:37:41 hello 10:38:36 --- join: snoopy_1611 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-121-213.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 10:40:12 What's up? 10:40:33 Hi Quartus. Hi marble. 10:40:43 Hey Ray. 10:42:02 doing a little reading up on forth -- thinking of writing a small implementation 10:42:16 I think I'll start of with an rpn calculator though... 10:42:26 marble, why not learn Forth instead? 10:43:56 I'm going through the linked tutorial -- but how do you mean 'learn' ? 10:44:05 the syntax? the common word-sets? the convensions? 10:44:34 I mean learn to program in Forth, the conventions, the mindset, the techniques, rather than building another implementation. Writing a Forth will not teach you to write Forth, unfortunately. 10:44:39 Completely different thing. 10:45:23 true true -- however, I don't have anything that I need to write in forth 10:46:22 the current thing tickling my interest is the mixing/separation of control and data, and how there are security implications because of it... 10:46:53 (mis-)constructing a string and pass it to the unix command shell 10:46:54 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 10:47:08 --- nick: snoopy_1611 -> Snoopy42 10:47:08 Quartus: Saw you up _early_ this morning. Get any rest, or have you been writing all day(s)? 10:47:18 (mis-)constructing an sql query, and ending up with a sql injection vulnerability 10:47:21 Ray_work, just up now. 10:47:28 marble, how do you see Forth relating to that? 10:48:00 it's a small language, that's easy to boot-strap 10:48:22 should be a useful base to play around on and experiment with 10:50:48 I suggest learning Forth, rather than building yet another toy implementation. You'll learn more. There's little to be learned in implementing Forth, and it requires a fair amount of diligence to do it right. If it's really the internals you want to know more about, studying a well-made existing implementation will teach you more. 10:50:58 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 10:52:02 It's hard to learn lessons when you don't face/see problems 10:52:22 looking at an existing forth would blind me to the difficulties ;) 10:52:40 You will never see past what difficulties there are in implementing a real Forth without studying one. 10:52:45 I wil take the opportunity to learn forth, however -- it's a language that I hve put off learning for *years* 10:53:29 writing an interpreter can't be all that hard... 10:54:26 Writing an 80%-complete Forth isn't hard. Going the distance to a compliant Standard Forth is trickier, and most don't bother. They get to 80%, stop, and never learn Forth, which is really unfortunate as they've achieved nothing of use to themselves or to others. 10:55:15 But I'm not after a standard forth -- I'm after enough of a base to allow me to experiment with the separation of control and data... 10:56:39 although, there is another reason I want a little forth 10:56:41 Some of elements that make Forth distinct, such as CREATE/DOES>, are in the 20% past the typical give-up point. 10:57:32 I have a palmos app, and I can't use gdb to debug it (multiple sections) -- I thought a little interpreter inside the program might be good 10:58:34 What's the app? 11:00:31 its a commercial app for tradesmen -- it talk to the computer an hq for figure out what jobs there are do do, enable the tradesman to records work again the job, and then sends the whole lot back 11:00:47 It must be complex to require multiple segments. 11:00:57 it is pretty big :) 11:01:11 I'm the author of Quartus Forth for the Palm OS. 11:01:42 400152 bytes, atm 11:02:23 you happen to know if there's an easy way to enable a forth to access all the C defined functions? 11:02:55 You mean the Palm OS ROM functions? 11:03:26 Or the functions inside your app? 11:03:33 the functions inside the app... 11:04:19 C is not a reflective language; there's no easy way. You'll have to set up something like a populated table of names and function pointers, and use that. 11:04:54 yeah, I was thinking it'd be something like that... 11:05:34 well, I have something that groks c function prototypes, so perhaps I'll get around to implementing it one of these days :) 11:05:51 Then you'll have to devise a mechanism for passing arguments. 11:05:58 And reading return values. 11:05:59 --- quit: Cheery (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:05:59 --- quit: madgarden (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: cmeme (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: timlarson (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: crc (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: nighty__ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: TreyB (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:00 --- quit: lukeparrish (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:06:20 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@bas2-kitchener06-1096620860.dsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l325b.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- join: lukeparrish (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 11:06:20 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o crc 11:10:29 Alternatively you could learn Forth, where debuggers are rarely found and where there's already a reflective interpreter installed. :) 11:11:01 App sizes are smaller, code has fewer bugs, factoring is the order of the day, etc. 11:11:11 that doesn't help me with my existing code base :) 11:13:36 Re-writing your app in Forth would certainly give you an opportunity to learn Forth. 11:15:30 I doubt that that would get approval :) 11:17:25 Does it have to? You could undertake it for your own edification. If the result was 1/6th the size and more easily maintained, you might then be able to convince someone; failing that it would still have been tremendously instructive for you. 11:17:50 Learning Forth will improve your coding ability in any language. 11:21:47 8-hour working days, 2+ hours of commuting... *shrugs* 11:22:25 I'm of the opinion that a professional developer should always be learning. 11:23:22 what I've said is not exclusive with learning 11:23:45 you can learn stuff in the area of your next problem 11:25:55 Problem-domain-specific learning is all well and good, and necessary, but it's no substitute for learning radically different approaches to problem-solving. 11:26:06 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 11:26:18 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-197-044.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:27:58 I get it, I get it -- you'd prefer I learned how to use an existing forth, than write a toy one of my own ;) 11:28:22 You'd benefit a great deal more. The other road takes you nowhere. 11:29:19 but the problem I'm trying to solve is not 'writing a program to do X' -- it's designing a language 11:29:37 I thought it was 'embedding an interpreter'. 11:29:56 no, that was a secondary interest of mine 11:31:34 I'll be afk for about 90 mins -- back later! 11:31:44 --- nick: marble -> marble-afk 11:33:50 You can also fiddle around with language design without building your own semi-Forth to do it with; you could build directly on top of an existing, working, Forth. It's an excellent tool for writing minilanguages. 11:35:05 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 11:35:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 11:56:45 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 11:56:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 12:04:03 marble-afk: you went from having nothing to code in forth to something that sounds fun and substancial, that business communication proggy. 12:04:31 * Ray_work away for a bit as well. 12:04:39 --- nick: Ray_work -> Ray-away 12:05:08 Not sure I can even remember a time where I didn't have anything to code 12:05:12 now I usually have 5 things 12:23:12 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:28:03 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 12:28:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 12:48:32 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 13:10:45 --- nick: Ray-away -> Ray_work 13:11:03 --- nick: marble-afk -> marble 13:11:44 Ray_work: after 3 years, things stop being fun :) 13:12:04 I'm sure you are correct. :) 13:12:26 3 years tho? What's missing? 13:13:56 it could be easier to work with -- adding new screens, getting an overview as to how everything fits together 13:14:27 Oh, okay, still in the design phase then. Is any of it implemented yet? 13:14:54 it's all implemented, and I have since quit the company :) 13:15:10 Ah. 13:15:12 Okay. 13:15:16 (they called me back to add a few screens) 13:15:22 Neat. 13:30:26 --- join: forther (n=forther@h-66-166-144-210.snvacaid.covad.net) joined #forth 13:31:22 hi 13:32:01 hi 13:36:00 --- quit: marble ("oh noes! glasspebble broke the irc :O") 13:37:14 --- join: marble (n=glass@cpc1-bolt6-0-0-cust18.manc.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 13:56:02 hey forther. You actually saw a prototype, eh? 14:26:47 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:30:32 hey vatic 14:30:52 Quartus: hey how are you? 14:31:00 Ticking along. You? 14:31:28 Finished teaching for the week, looking forward to some programming tomorrow. 14:31:38 Good deal. 14:31:42 I think I said that last week at this time... ;-) 14:31:51 Anything specific? 14:32:10 Also got a lot on my plate re: oral exams in january... 14:32:31 I'm working on some audio synthesis stuff in Forth, of course. 14:33:11 Trying to output waveforms with Gnuplot first, then tying the result into the audio subsystem... 14:33:46 I wrote the code in a sort of Forth-pseudo code first, and factored it a couple of times... 14:34:12 An interesting way to work that's new for me. 14:34:42 I can imagine it'd be neat to have Forth words for generating & combining waveforms. 14:35:06 Make a little waveform-based language. 14:35:39 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 14:35:46 My interest is in "non-standard" synthesis, which is a fancy way to say the algorithms don't follow acoustic models. 14:36:03 hi all 14:36:06 hi 14:36:16 This one process that's a favorite of mine I wrote in just 3 words. Very simple. 14:36:26 erider: hi 14:39:02 Simple is the goal. 14:40:36 Quartus: it was a lot more involved in C for some reason. One thing I'll have to do is defer some words, but I guess that's OK? 14:40:59 hi guys 14:41:07 vatic: i see you're tinkering with macforth 14:41:11 hi zpg 14:41:41 zpg: I have been for a while. That was where I got introduced back in 1991... 14:41:55 vatic, I don't defer unless it's required; perhaps there's an approach to the problem that doesn't require it. 14:42:24 vatic: ah, i see. which version of MacOS are you using MacForth on? 14:42:28 OSX 14:42:29 ? 14:44:15 Quartus: interesting. I have a word that increments or decrements the frequency and amplitude of the samples. Seemed like I could reassign behavior, rather than multiply words... 14:44:48 vatic, very hard for me to speak intelligently about alternatives, not beng able to see what you've done. 14:44:50 OS11 14:45:07 vatic: ? 14:45:12 hi vatic how are you doing? 14:45:16 hi zpg 14:45:17 OS11? Isn't that OS/2 ? :) 14:45:23 hi Q 14:45:26 hey erider 14:45:38 Quartus: maybe tomorrow I'll post the pseudocode, although I can't ecide whether it might just look like really bad Forth. 14:46:10 Anyway, I might shove something in you're direction if you have a very idle minute... 14:46:17 Sure, no problem. 14:47:50 I found Doug Hoffman's rumor that Apple might return to a PowerPC chip interesting... 14:48:09 Personally I think the move to Intel hardware was a marketing blunder. 14:48:40 Followed by the intensely bad Mac commercials that are out now. 14:48:51 i've not seen those here. 14:48:55 hi vatic hi erider. :) 14:49:02 I was at the 5th avenue Apple store about a week ago and didn't find the new machines to be that much cooler than the one I have... 14:49:18 Two guys standing in the white room from the Matrix, one is fat and sad and wears a bad suit, the other is a young hip guy. Guess which one personifies the Mac. 14:49:19 hey Ray_work 14:49:25 Quartus: I can't even figure them out... 14:49:44 Ray shuld be in those ads... 14:49:46 that sounds rather dire. 14:49:47 sould 14:49:51 should 14:50:02 heh 14:50:11 sold! 14:50:12 Hehe, Hey some of those ads are not too bad and make sence even. 14:50:19 --- quit: virl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:51:00 zpg: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/ 14:51:11 So far the messages I've seen have been that you can't do anything but monochrome piecharts on the PC, and if you try you'll just be sad and fat. 14:51:33 They should be realistic and only show the PC guy from the neck down. 14:51:49 But on the other hand, they then say that you can now run Windows on your Mac, and that's supposed to be a benefit. 14:52:25 I consider them a complete marketing failure. They alienate the customer base they'd ideally like to convert. 14:52:28 Only to Windows users who can't run a Mac on the pc. 14:52:52 good evening 14:52:56 Hi crc. 14:52:58 Hi crc. 14:53:04 Quartus: very good point. 14:53:24 I'm sure they give a giggle to existing Mac users, which is not advertising money well-spent. 14:55:13 Quartus: although that's the essence of brand-buidling. Maybe they're worried about losing existing customers... 14:55:28 building 14:55:37 Attrition and expansion need to be addressed together, the latter being more important. 15:04:05 time to go 15:04:23 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:11:15 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:32:08 --- join: Razor-X (n=user@user-11faaoj.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #forth 16:09:50 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 16:42:31 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 16:49:35 --- part: marble left #forth 16:54:29 Quartus: i've just encountered the ALLOT problem when freezing my QF code. some functions call save-mem, which obviously re-allots data. the solution so far is to call various words, and set constants before I MakePRC. does that make sense? do you never have word definitions that return newly allot'd strings? if so, does that necessitate rewriting with ALLOCATE? 17:16:19 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 17:49:15 --- part: forther left #forth 18:06:51 hey zpg. Sorry for the lag. Out and about. 18:07:00 Are we WorldFIG? 18:07:42 allocate is one way to go. Another is to pre-allot as much as you think you'll need before the makeprc, and reset HERE in your main word. 18:08:45 Extra points if your design gets this amount to the byte! :) 18:13:56 Are We the WorldFIG, Are We the , Are We the ones who want to write better code, so We each bare witness. < sung to we are the world> 18:15:00 18:18:30 !=if ; then; 18:18:52 oh sorry, <>= if exit then ; 18:19:18 Want that over the bar in my next home. 18:19:27 --- quit: vatic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:21:23 yikes <> if; in retro forth I believe. 18:30:03 no you can use <> 18:31:28 I saw that error :( 18:33:01 * Raystm2 goes off to write his own toy forth based on <>= to save face. 18:34:03 Not equal to - equal to. More human then human. 18:37:34 * erider is going to eat some chicken... 18:48:17 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:53:51 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 19:36:58 Quartus_: hi there. what do you mean reset here? say i have a a word that when executed calls concat (which calls save-mem) 19:37:33 is there a way to call this from within my 'go' (the XT of which I give to MakePRC)? 19:37:39 or is ALLOCATE the only solution? 19:39:21 Reset. negative allot. 19:39:27 Or return HERE to a saved value. 19:39:41 save-mem uses allocate, doesn't it? Or did you change that? 19:40:16 i have a small one of my own which uses allot. 19:41:01 though in this case i could (a) rewrite or (b) use the one you provide if it uses allocate. 19:41:22 Sure, the gforth one uses allocat.e 19:42:02 but the problem applies more generally too for code using ALLOT ... i'm trying to see whether i need to rewrite it for MakePRC or another method is viable. 19:43:30 The other method is the one I outlined. variable hereptr : main hereptr @ here allot ... ; here hereptr ! 10000 allot ... ' main MakePRC 19:44:33 --- quit: virsys (Remote closed the connection) 19:44:46 er, : main hereptr @ here - allot ... ; 19:45:42 i think i follow. 19:46:13 i should really have raised the question earlier; it's now 0347 and i need to be up at 0830, again not too nice as prospects go. 19:46:20 can we continue tomorrow? 19:46:30 Sure. 19:46:46 good stuff. take care, night all. 19:47:01 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 20:00:58 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:27:11 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-53-68-118.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 21:16:15 What's up out there? 21:20:51 --- quit: nighty_ (Remote closed the connection) 21:23:01 --- quit: cmeme (Excess Flood) 21:23:09 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E06DE3.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:24:57 --- join: cmeme (n=cmeme@boa.b9.com) joined #forth 21:30:36 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:06:42 kind of silent 22:13:05 it is 22:41:30 maybe we should talk about not talking. 22:49:18 --- quit: vatic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:07:35 The manuals for Quartus Forth sound large. 23:08:03 Sound large? 23:08:17 I haven't opened 'em just yet. 23:09:50 Some of the documentation is symbol references & other diagrams of Palm OS structures. 23:10:17 How long has Quartus Forth taken to be developed thus far? 23:10:47 I've never tracked the man-hours that went into it. It's been around for a few years now. 23:11:47 I may as well spend part of my ``vacation'' playing around with it on my Palm. 23:11:57 Good idea. :) 23:12:08 It offers a lot more control than I thought, hmm... 23:12:31 Right down to the metal. 23:12:52 Awesome. 23:20:18 Yay. Student discount. 23:20:25 :) 23:20:34 Does a student ID card count as proper identification? 23:20:39 It does. 23:20:46 Yay! 23:30:50 --- part: forther left #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.11.09