00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.11.03 00:23:52 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 00:58:20 --- quit: slava () 01:42:32 3:41 am and I wake up ... 01:51:16 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 01:55:07 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 02:06:48 --- part: forther left #forth 03:16:11 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 03:22:40 --- join: zpg (n=user@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 03:22:52 morning chaps. 03:26:05 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:39:52 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:09:39 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 04:15:59 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 04:20:29 hi vatic 04:20:54 zpg: hi 04:21:54 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 04:24:32 vatic: how's it going? 04:31:50 zpg: ok, and yourself? 04:34:32 not bad thanks, just tinkering with strings in forth at the moment, nothing too exciting i'm afraid. 04:34:35 how's the pic stuff coming along? 04:36:42 hmm, far too many return stack operations in my append word. 04:43:52 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.36) joined #forth 04:50:39 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 05:03:29 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.0.4 $Revision: 1.726.2.19 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 05:07:14 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 05:34:51 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 05:59:22 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:26:46 --- join: zpg (n=user@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 06:27:49 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:35:05 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:36:11 hi Ray_work 06:36:50 Good afternoon zpg how are you today. 06:38:49 not bad thanks, yourself? 06:39:43 Not bad, but I just found out my Palm keyboard is delayed in shipping and schedualed to be at me on the 7th. :( 06:39:51 was supposed to be here today. 06:39:54 ahh that sucks. 06:40:39 mine was lying dormant in the Royal Mail depot which is miles away from my house. they tried to deliver it once (no one was home, delivery being at 11am+) so they dumped it there. i finally gave up trying to get someone on the other end of telephone, so left a message requesting it be transferred to a local post office. 06:40:48 surprisingly, they got the message, and i my keyboard. 06:40:52 isn't that a quaint little ditty? :) 06:40:56 Haveing the keyboard makes a difference, doesn't it. 06:41:27 It is. :) 06:41:57 well, on first tinker with the keyboard, i felt that the stylus was nicer to be honest. 06:41:58 we'll see. 06:42:43 I see. Sure. I'm starting to get fond of the Graffiti. 06:43:58 While codeing my ChuckBot the Cursor ap I realized that you can make the shape of the robot, ( a triangle tradionally ) pointing in the direction you are faceing, and by makeing that shape he moves in that direction. 06:44:20 neat 06:46:52 I didn't know what I was missing with out a PDA. 06:48:29 what were you missing out? 06:51:37 E-mail for one. Now I do it daily instead of quarterly. 06:51:38 :) 06:51:45 email from your palm? 06:51:50 Ya. 06:51:55 what model do you have? 06:51:59 Vx 06:52:10 do you write then sync? 06:52:14 Sure. 06:52:18 ah ok 06:52:21 what do you write in? 06:52:28 (app wise) 06:52:53 Oh. Well, I'm codeing ChuckBot in Quartus Forth for one. 06:53:13 I knock off some examples, like that string thing we were talking about last evening. 06:53:15 i'm just asking whether you're writing emails in memopad and then copying them from your palm desktop into a mail client? 06:53:45 No the Palm has a mail client. You can answer mail from it, sync and send and recieve new mail. 06:53:57 (re: string thing, i've been tinkering with it just now, i've got my own string-pair concatenation going on, which is nice) 06:54:01 oh neat, what's it called? 06:54:58 ah, got to dash, shall ask you later on. sounds useful. 06:54:58 ttfn 06:54:59 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.0.4 $Revision: 1.726.2.19 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 07:02:47 hello 07:05:39 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:11:47 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-159-123.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:12:25 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:19:51 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:20:01 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 07:20:09 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 08:04:17 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:25:56 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 08:37:45 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 08:56:29 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 09:04:22 --- join: zpg (n=user@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk) joined #forth 09:10:29 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:11:42 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 09:16:08 hey 09:16:18 hi Quartus_ 09:16:27 just finishing up this pig latin code, it's a mess though. 09:17:49 zpg y quartus hi 09:19:05 hey erider 09:20:48 Keep factoring -- it's a tiny problem-space. 09:20:49 Quartus you were talking to Ray_work last night about how some of the words in retro where not portable. Were you talking about not portable to other forth implementations or other systems? 09:21:47 Quartus_: yeah, this is really messy code at the moment, which is irking me somewhat. just got it fully working though. care to see it just so you know where i'm at in terms of knots? 09:22:02 Both, but at the time I meant specifically resilient to changes in rf itself. 09:22:05 i know for a fact that there are way too many stack manipulations going on. 09:22:21 zpg, sure. 09:22:24 k 09:23:14 the idea of loc or section, is that implemented into gforth? 09:23:50 http://forth.pastebin.ca/236135 09:24:16 gforth has standard wordlist support, so any form of modules can be built on it. 09:26:16 Quartus_: as you can see in that example, the backslang code itself is pretty messy. this probably has something to do with the way i'm splitting the string up, i.e. 4 items on the stack 09:27:54 zpg, yeah. Vowel is too long, concat is way too long. String-diff I call 'prefix', and it can be simply nip - 09:27:57 also, my 'concat' seems a little messy. 09:28:41 hmm good point on string-diff, vowel is indeed pretty long. concat i got in a mess writing. 09:29:20 I can't analyze it too much more thoroughly at this moment, I'm mobile. 09:29:34 okay no worries, i need to head off (not at my usual terminal at the moment). 09:29:40 can run through this later if you've time. 09:29:57 sure thing. 09:30:04 good stuff. take care, talk soon. cheers for now 09:30:06 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.0.4 $Revision: 1.726.2.19 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 09:32:42 Q may I ask what the code is going to be used for? Is it going into your book? 09:34:51 what code? 09:35:40 the pig-latin? Probably not. 09:40:03 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54896B93.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:41:28 yes the pig-latin 09:41:48 * erider was attempting to read the code 09:42:02 is there a debugger for forth? 09:44:09 Debugging facilities depend heavily on the individual implementation. 09:46:44 that code isn't optimal 09:50:25 forth doesn't need a debugger. If you feel you need one, or a single-stepper, your code needs factoring. 09:52:29 I just wanted one to watch what was going on 09:53:10 Hello, men! 09:53:19 hi Ray_work 10:00:47 hey ray 10:04:18 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 10:12:50 * Ray_work back from customer helping. 10:18:20 hi Ray_work 10:26:04 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-50811a7377699ae0) joined #forth 10:27:04 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:29:31 hi zpg :) 10:30:06 I may get a chance to try out our code here in a bit. :) 10:46:04 our = your 10:49:18 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 10:53:41 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 10:53:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 10:56:28 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-bee398eb5a187be8) joined #forth 11:22:38 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 11:23:04 --- join: Bacara (i=jetstrea@127.Red-81-40-192.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 11:24:55 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:33:28 hi all 11:33:34 right, i've rewritten this backslang code. 11:34:08 and apart from vowel?, i'm pretty happy with the whole thing. rewrote on the palm, it seems i was far more efficient at factoring. still can't think of a nice way to check whether a char is a vowel though. 11:35:00 Ray_work: i'd be grateful if you gave me the URL for the palm mail client you're using, if it's good. 11:37:04 http://forth.pastebin.ca/236349 <-- code 11:45:27 --- part: Bacara left #forth 11:47:15 zpg your vowel word would be better if you had a string containing all vowels and you could then SCAN that string. 11:48:18 ie create vowels ," aeiou" <-- in isforth that creates a counted string, not sure what an ans forth does wth ," 11:48:35 oh that's a neat way of doing it. 11:48:44 yes, i considered searching a set, but it hadn't clicked just how. 11:49:05 and compare your forward char with /string 11:49:10 i think you can do 1 /string 11:49:30 assuming ans forths have /string 11:49:55 no need for widening 11:50:02 s" aeiou" char t scan ok 11:50:02 .s <2> 1049013 0 ok 11:50:05 i can just nip then use the flag 11:50:17 yup 11:50:43 i dont like s" btw, iu would prefer doing something like abouve "create vowels" thing 11:50:59 but thats just a personal preference 11:51:06 isforth doesnt have s" at all 11:51:12 --- join: Bacara (i=jetstrea@127.Red-81-40-192.staticIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 11:53:27 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 11:53:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 11:53:29 --- part: ygrek left #forth 11:53:46 http://forth.pastebin.ca/236387 11:53:49 yay! 11:54:44 thanks I440r 11:54:53 that code look okay factor-wise now? 11:56:23 --- part: Bacara left #forth 11:56:41 bit better, for sure. 11:57:37 * zpg nods 11:58:26 apart from this vowel rewrite, i wrote from top to bottom in about 5-10 mins on the palm. neat interface, really liking it these days. the key came in realising that most of the stack ops would be solved by using a move word that places the next free character address on the stack. 11:59:01 i.e., 11:59:13 : move-string ( add1 u1 add2 -- add2+u1 ) 2dup 2>r swap move 2r> swap chars + ; 11:59:27 I don't like allot-string. Vowel? doesn't return a well-formed flag. 11:59:45 allot-string's functionality, or name? 11:59:52 yes, the new vowel? solution is pretty hacked up 12:00:12 allot-string -- both. Bad name, questionable factor. 12:00:16 hmm ok 12:00:40 it seemed appropriate when i was writing, i like the cleaner concat. 12:01:01 forward-char is, I think, -1 /string 12:01:03 also --> how do i go from 0/postive-value ==> 0 / -1 easily? 12:01:25 if -1 else 0 then <-- seems like overkill 12:01:39 it is. 0<> 12:01:51 neat 12:02:14 -1 /string is x n --> x+1 n-1 ? 12:02:47 try it. 12:02:55 good answer... 12:03:13 no, it's x-1 n+1 12:03:28 1 /string works though 12:03:31 Try. 1 /string 12:03:54 that's neater. 12:05:17 any other comments? good, bad ugly? 12:05:59 a distinct improvement. Can be shorter. 12:06:13 you mean by removing forward-char, adding in 1 /string 12:06:23 or more generally? 12:08:21 generally. Set it aside, return to it, you may see some opportunities. 12:10:13 neat. 12:10:49 I can post mine later today. 12:11:10 this seems like overkill: "A common exercise in programming classes to teach the concept of recursion is to define a procedure or function that, when given a word in normal English, yields the Pig Latin equivalent. The simplest way to write such a procedure is to set a base case for words beginning with vowels (add "ay"), and a recursive case that moves the first letter to the end of the word for re-evaluation." 12:12:00 hehm http://www.google.com/intl/xx-piglatin/ 12:14:10 yes, that's a ridiculous mapping of the problem. 12:15:17 sorry, am at work and had to go do some stuff heh 12:15:27 but thats ok, quartus picked up where i left off :) 12:16:22 hrm. ive always said taht anything you can do WITH recursion can be done better without 12:16:34 the only time anyone showed me different is with the ackerman function 12:16:47 something thats of limited practical value in the real world 12:16:47 it's a broken mapping, too, that will crash on a word with no vowels. 12:18:22 recursion has its uses, but it's not appropriate in this case at all. 12:18:50 agreed 12:19:06 I use it in writing bnf code. 12:19:07 the problem specification -- modify the base then add ay -- doesn't require calling the function a second time. why would you? 12:19:18 it's pointless. if you modify the base, the only thing left to do is add 'ay' 12:19:47 if that piece of information is accurate, it's no wonder recursion is misunderstood. 12:19:52 zpg, you could as easily loop, in which case it would cycle forever on 'x'. Either way it's daft. 12:20:20 but it would handle the case of 'church', for instance. 12:20:52 it suggests cycling consonants to the end until a vowel arrives. 12:21:00 s" church" slang type urchchay ok 12:21:10 not a hard example. 12:21:17 zpg: mail was included in the download with the Palm Vx upgrade OS. This one is Version 3.5. 12:21:30 Ray_work: oh i see. Palm mail? 12:21:47 All I had to do was to was to set up my Outlook express to work with it. 12:21:48 yes. 12:21:52 "quill" is what needs to be dealt with. 12:21:53 right. The notion of looping and moving consonants until a vowel arrives distributes the vowel finding pointlessly, and leaves the algorithm open to endless looping. 12:22:05 ah i see your point. sure. 12:22:19 * Ray_work needs to catch up to you two... 12:22:23 you need to deal with qu and also gua and gue 12:22:39 gua? 12:22:47 uagay, surely? 12:23:12 guarantee. Arantee-guay 12:23:27 why not uaranteegay? 12:23:55 uarantee is not a sub-lexeme of guarantee. 12:24:30 with qu and most cases of gu, the u is part of the consonant. 12:26:12 perhaps, though i'm not sure how the rule for backslang is really defined, it's pretty muddy. 12:27:00 it's a pronunciation trick, though, not an orthographic one. It works on sounded consonants. 12:27:35 if quite is ite-quay, guam is am-guay, and guess is ess-guay. 12:27:53 sure, i agree there. 12:28:33 i'm just pondering whether we're transferring qu or u...q, and whether if not the extreme splitting of q&u, whether this is because of an underlying rule or rather a close binding of q to u 12:28:57 G can exist independent of vowels that follow it, Q cannot in english. 12:29:24 so again, what granularity are these transformations operating at? 12:29:29 qu is k. Gue is Ge. Gua is Gwa. 12:32:20 gua --> guardian 12:32:27 the first audible consonant sequence has to move. 12:32:36 ardianguay wouldn't retain the same phonetic character. 12:32:42 guard 12:32:46 right. Ardian-guay 12:32:56 ard-guay 12:33:17 neither are particularly satisfactory. 12:33:23 then again, it's pig latin 12:33:48 it's better than splitting the g from the u in both cases. 12:34:18 i'm inclined to agree, but again it depends on what rule-system you're using. 12:34:25 if you like, gua -> g, special-casing guam. 12:34:33 er, gua -> ga 12:35:29 ok, but you agree qu is a special case; so are many occurrances of gu. 12:38:05 i'm not disagreeing with you as such -- intuitively, i agree. but if there /are/ defined rules of the game, and they're CCV... then the question becomes muddied. 12:38:24 ccv? 12:38:47 consonant c vowel 12:38:53 or CC*V... if you like 12:39:04 it's a children's pronunciation game. It's based on audible leading consonants. 12:39:07 so CC*V --> VCC*+ay 12:40:17 interesting stuff anyway. bearing in mind we're representing a phonetic game using the english alphabet. 12:40:35 the problem vanishes entirely when you encode strings in IPA 12:40:44 anyway, time for tea. 12:41:32 ok 12:42:25 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 12:49:24 --- quit: vatic (Remote closed the connection) 12:56:55 time for tea? hmm.. is he british? ... /whois .. yeah he is british.. 12:57:19 I'm also drinking tea. 12:58:42 and I'm also drinking from time to time a cup of tea, but most of the time icetea, so what? 13:00:37 you brought it up. 13:02:51 whatever.. 13:03:38 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 13:05:30 Who would have thought I would need to work so much on a Hunting friday. 13:05:42 Drop the u in gu words. Just drop it. 13:06:00 guard = ardgay not ardguay 13:06:20 it's phonetic, not stringent. 13:30:31 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:33:05 back 13:36:41 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 13:39:23 incidentally, when i'm calling allot, ought i be freeing afterward? 13:39:35 or is that only allocate? 13:43:46 only allocate. 13:44:39 ok, so i needn't worry about the move operations then? 13:47:06 no worry there. 13:48:23 good stuff. 13:58:27 night all. 13:58:28 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 14:10:04 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:22:19 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 14:22:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 14:33:00 --- quit: vatic (Remote closed the connection) 14:48:54 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:03:36 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:11:42 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:19:54 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 15:29:25 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 15:42:19 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:47:18 Hey. 15:52:37 Hey back 15:52:43 What's up? 15:52:44 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 15:53:02 Just walked in. 15:53:26 What about yourself? 15:53:31 Pretty much the same. 15:54:19 My keyboard was supposed to get here today, won't be in till Tuesday according to tracking. :( 15:54:27 Always something. 15:54:57 There was a time in my life where I would have been very self indulgent and become offended. 15:55:26 I out grew it. 15:55:36 Heh. 15:56:57 I have twenty dollars saved for Quartus Forth. I hope to have 50 more before the end of the month. Sorry for delay. Meds are killing me. 15:57:22 No worries, Raystm2. 15:58:19 I love it, so far. Neat to have an ANS Forth in the palm of your hand, anywhere you go. 15:58:41 It's something, that's for sure. 15:58:41 I think I read that you coded something on a flight from CA back to To. 15:59:13 One of the hack I think. 15:59:23 I did indeed. 16:11:39 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 16:13:48 hi 16:14:26 hi snowrichard. How are you today? 16:14:37 oh ok... 16:15:31 got my new license plates on the car. 16:17:15 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54894D0F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:17:24 hi crest_ 16:18:12 --- quit: Crest (Nick collision from services.) 16:18:20 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 16:19:23 i hate this 24h auto disconnect 16:19:42 hi Crest. 16:19:43 once a day? that's not too bad for dialup 16:19:58 snowrichard are those the handycap plates? 16:20:10 they don't give me handicapped parking 16:20:22 just they say disabled Veteran us armed forces 16:20:55 oh yes I see. 16:21:02 and I can walk. My disability is mental. 16:21:06 DV is part of the number? 16:21:15 ya. 16:21:22 So is everyones. 16:23:56 so is everyones? what do you mean? 16:25:03 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 16:25:10 probably that every one is mentaly disabled in some way 16:25:22 I think so. 16:25:33 Not everyone would admit. 16:26:12 I believe if you put anyone into a hospital they would come up with a diagnosis of some kind no matter what. 16:26:41 I saw the movie KINSEY ( i think that's right ) the other night about the guy that did the first sexual study. He determined that there is no "normal" sex. 16:26:54 snowrichard: agreed. 16:27:39 Not when he was involved, anyway. :) 16:27:59 hehe. 16:29:02 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-178-20.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:29:24 We must all be brain damaged or something. How else do we explain the fact that most people don't do what it takes very early in life to make themselves financially free, when it's a very simple thing to do at a young age. 16:30:02 spend less than you make and do that for a long time ... yeah most people don't get ti 16:30:03 it 16:31:04 It's not all that simple to do that at a young age, nor is it necessarily advisable. Most young people don't have large incomes, and would have to deprive themselves of considerable comfort and luxury to put aside a sufficient amount of money to provide for their retirement. 16:31:04 Ya. or even. just save $2000.00 a year for 6 years between 17 and 22. Even in a bank account, over 40-50 years you'd have millions if you never saved another dime. 16:31:49 Most people that age are still in school, and not earning a dime; in fact they're racking up debt. 16:31:59 ya. 16:32:48 If they could come up with $2000/yr for six years, that'd simply go toward paying back their student debt, and it wouldn't make that much of a dent in it. 16:32:52 Children shouldn't leave home till they have atleast that nest egg. 16:33:47 So they should save money on the minimum-wage job they can get without secondary education until they're 25, and then go into debt to go to school? Bear in mind if they have money in the bank, they're not eligible for student loans. 16:33:47 You don't have to pay back your student debt during years that you are attending school, but I agree. It would take a full time job and full time school to do it. 16:34:38 * Raystm2 wonders about the necessity of school. 16:34:50 didn't do me much good :) 16:34:53 Over rated if you ask me. And not at all worth the money. 16:35:03 These days it seems like the choice is real university, or Hamburger university. 16:35:43 Newton would say to only study what you are interested in and nothing else. Joe Campbell calls it following your bliss. 16:35:47 And really, what use is the average 17-year-old that he's worth more than minimum wage to anybody? 16:36:18 Einstien said that you could become the formost expert in any subject that you read for 15 minutes a day for 5 years. 16:36:18 Bliss is a dandy thing to follow. So is food and rent. 16:37:08 That may have been true for Einstein. 16:39:49 I looked up the quote -- he said it'd be a year. A year at 15 minutes every day is just over 12 days of 9-5 study. I can't think of too many useful subjects where that little study would make you an expert. 16:40:09 BASIC :) 16:42:14 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:42:37 At the average reading speed, you'd be able to read -- nevermind understand, just read -- 6 or 7 average-length textbooks in that time. 16:43:22 There was a lot less knowledge in the world when he said it, too. 16:43:37 So I have to call bullshit on that one. 16:44:10 Let us try. :) 16:44:30 Foody, brb 16:44:38 The Art of Computer Programming runs about 1500 pages. In 15 minutes per day you could read it maybe twice in a year. That wouldn't make you an expert in programming. 16:45:22 is that the Knuth series? 16:45:28 It might, if your memory is good and your mathematics is up to snuff, familiarize you with the terminology and the fundamentals. It'd give you no experience. You'd be hard-pressed to claim any expertise in programming. 16:45:29 Yes. 16:46:41 I can read 1500 pages in a weekend, but that doesn't leave much time for anything else :) 16:47:03 I would worry about a dentist who claimed expertise after reading about dentistry for 15 minutes a day for a year. Likewise a structural engineer. 16:47:14 yeah 16:48:23 I don't know the context of Einstein's quote, but it might perhaps be possible to gain a good grasp of a specific specialization of something you already know well with that much effort. 16:49:51 I wonder if he wasn't speaking to the level of education at the time. 16:50:10 He wasn't a typical specimen, nor were the vast majority of his students; I'd say he was out of his bailiwick making a claim like that. 16:50:32 Well, if you define 'expert' as 'somebody who has read a half-dozen books on the subject', then it's bang on. 16:50:53 That'd make me an expert in a pretty wide range of things. 16:51:40 Much expertise is knowing how to use the reference. 16:51:54 Expertise in looking things up is not expertise in a given subject. 16:52:04 Unless the subject is 'looking things up'. 16:52:53 I'm an expert in material handling devices. I don't memorize everything, I look it up. 16:53:32 Your expertise doesn't end at being able to work the index. You know what you're looking for, and you know what it means when you find it, and how to apply it. 16:53:49 you could get that in a year. 16:54:08 If I condensed it. 16:54:58 So snowrichard could become an expert on material handling devices in a week of reading, and that's it? There you go. One for Einstein. 16:55:22 doubt it 16:58:43 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 16:59:27 A more reasonable figure is that it takes ten years of continuous learning to become an expert, in fields with any substantial complexity. 17:00:25 That sounds practical. 17:00:29 That's with actual experience working in the field -- certainly it's more than two weeks of reading. 17:01:36 I get peeved at the "Learn Programming in 10 Days" or "24 hours" books. It trivializes an entire profession. 17:04:37 Programmers won't quit untill it becomes one. I suppose the perception gained from those books helps to keep the labor cost down. 17:05:12 Creates a 24 hour level of programmer. 17:05:54 Hey, 24 hours is 96 days of Einstein expertise; you could become a 25% Einstein Expert in that time. 17:06:09 :) 17:07:10 10 days of continuous time is more than 2 and a half Einstein Experts. 17:07:45 I also read that you won't retain much if you read longer the 15-30 minutes. 17:08:27 I read longer then that all the time, but I think the point is that you have to let the content soak in. 17:08:32 I can't fault the guy; he was acclaimed as an all-purpose genius, and pestered with questions about all manner of things on which he had no more experience or expertise than anyone else. And everything he said was written down as though it was wisdom from on-high. You've got to expect at least a few dumb-ass things to wind up in that collection. 17:08:52 Hehe. 17:08:54 Ya. 17:12:05 Nova was good this week. About the black holes in the center of galaxies. 17:12:40 I don't catch it too often. 17:12:54 It's not always interesting. 17:13:29 That and Frontline, I have to keep tabs on to see if I want to record it for future consumption. 17:15:43 Oh hey, how's the Forth book coming? 17:15:49 Working away. 17:15:52 Work on it any? 17:15:54 oh ya. 17:15:55 good. 17:16:14 Can't wait to read it. You write well. 17:16:40 Thanks. I can't wait to read it either. :) 17:17:01 Do 15 minute passages mixed in for those who wish to be expert in a year or so. 17:17:08 Ha. 17:18:14 Could that be done? Would there be enough seperate concepts that could be mastered each in 15 minutes? The harder ones usurping the 15 minutes of earlier topics to stay on time? 17:18:36 You want me to suddenly buy in to the whole 15-minutes-a-day-for-a-year thing that I just spent 15 minutes knocking down? 17:18:57 Absolutely, I do it all the time! :) 17:19:02 Not gonna happen. 17:19:13 Okay, but it's a neat exercise. 17:19:24 So are jumping jacks. 17:19:50 win 17:20:05 I wouldn't do something I knocked down that was that involved, but I often just change point of view for a while to get a better perception of the other side. 17:20:26 If to make stronger cases against. 17:21:05 Writing a good book is hard enough without constraining yourself to some arbitrary block of time for each section to be learned or not. The joy of books is that they're not live; you can go back over things you didn't get, or skip ahead if you're already there. 17:21:21 If I didn't do that, I prob'ly wouldn't have ever tried Forth. 17:21:39 Point Quartus! 17:22:24 Video it will have to be. ( /me knows I beating a dead horse and not being very clever so i'm conceding this from this point on ) 17:22:51 If I were teaching classes, I'd have to figure out how much I can teach in a given lesson, and that'd be a function of me, the material, and the particular group of students. I'm not teaching in front of class, and I'm not writing a course outline; the reader can set their own pace. 17:23:42 Yup. 17:23:45 I know. 17:23:51 I saw it as soon as you said it. 17:24:26 If anything I think the material should err on the side of too many exercises, too many examples; those can be skipped over by the quicker learners. 17:24:45 Ya. 17:25:46 You know, I often thing about the way that Glen B. Haydon opened his tutorial for MVP. 17:25:51 I've viewed quite a few recorded lectures over the last while. If they're technical subjects, the camera is always trying to show the part of the text the lecturer is pointing at, or the equation he just drew, or the illustration he's trying to show. Lectures are a lousy format for conveying technical info. 17:27:29 Students furiously take notes to record some vague semblance of what's being said and shown. 17:27:35 * Raystm2 was thinking of the computer science lecture series on cable tv and I never remember much from those. 17:28:24 On the other hand... 17:29:40 Dr.Scheme and How to Design Programs was one of the most enjoyable experiances in my programming education. 17:30:38 Did it at my own pace. 17:31:10 I don't know that one. I just watched half of a lecture Peter Siebel gave talking about the wonders of Lisp; unfortunately the delivery isn't particularly smooth (of course he's a writer and not necessarily a lecturer). I'll try the other half in a while. 17:31:49 The SICP lecturers were good 17:32:23 you can download them on line I have the link if anyone whats it 17:34:15 These? http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 17:34:52 yup good lectures 17:35:25 I just got the second edition of the book SICP 17:37:02 Thanks guys. I started that once and never finished. 17:37:58 I'm going to watch it again but this time I will have the book to follow along 17:38:55 I did the book. I didn't know about the lecture series. 17:41:41 I found Forth while in the middle of that book and I haven't returned to a previous language for very much since. Not that I know how to do all that stuff in Forth, I just like Forth more then all that stuff. 17:42:50 AND I think if you can do it in Forth, you would prob'ly knock off a Forth version for design allone, then move to the finish language. 17:43:43 Maybe. 17:44:40 I'm assuming that there is a level of abstraction in forth that can accurately describe any system. I don't know that to be true. 17:46:20 Some languages make certain tasks easier than others. You can model any behaviour in Forth, but to do so will often require that you understand how the behaviour works. 17:46:26 Not just how to apply it. 17:46:40 ya, the mechanics. 17:47:21 More, how the machine can be made to perform a given abstract task, which is often far simpler than it may initially appear. 17:50:21 Quartus is gforth you forth of choice? 17:50:55 At some point the Forth programmer becomes bigger then any one implementation. 17:51:03 I use it under BSD and Windows; it's conveniently both Standard and available in both places. 17:52:04 cool 18:04:26 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p5489797F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 18:13:20 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:10:54 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:46:18 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 20:46:30 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-161-032.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:53:16 --- quit: vatic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:58:47 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 20:58:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 21:19:22 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E05AD9.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 21:36:27 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 21:37:22 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:11:09 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.36) joined #forth 23:35:19 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 23:35:55 hi 23:46:20 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.11.03