00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.10.30 03:46:14 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:20:06 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.250.177) joined #forth 05:42:22 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 06:07:53 --- nick: Raystm2- -> nanstm 06:09:43 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 06:12:09 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:39:40 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:53:31 hi 07:02:15 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:02:31 hi 07:04:49 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-136-022.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:06:39 --- part: forther left #forth 07:08:47 hi saon, Snoopy42 07:08:47 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:08:56 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-144-129.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:14:49 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 07:16:43 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 07:18:35 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p54894593.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:34:40 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:48:04 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-186-003.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 08:49:10 * Crest is away: … 08:56:13 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 08:56:42 --- quit: neceve_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 08:58:17 --- join: neceve_ (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 09:04:50 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 09:28:50 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 09:29:06 good mornint 09:32:23 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.250.177) joined #forth 09:41:18 oops morning 09:42:50 hi 09:44:52 ih. 09:45:02 hi 09:45:03 . 09:46:14 hey Ray 09:46:22 doing ok today? 09:46:22 Quartus Forth is fun. Great to have an ans forth in the palm of your hand. I'm substituting my old smoking habit with my new codeing habit. 09:46:33 Ya, how about you? 09:46:47 coding for smoking? may have to try that :) 09:47:12 I 09:47:15 how much is a PALM anyway? 09:47:33 300-500 I believe. 09:47:52 maybe more, ebay some old ones for less. 09:49:00 not in my budget right now 09:52:37 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 09:54:06 Much cheaper if you buy one of the previous models. 09:56:26 hi Quartus 09:56:31 hey 10:13:29 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 10:14:04 hey Quartus, how's everything 10:14:05 ? 10:14:12 Doing ok. How are you? 10:14:41 I'm having soup and a banana, must be a good day. :) 10:14:59 :) 10:15:32 * Ray_work proud of himself... 10:16:10 Just this last week I went from 2 packs a day to a pack every two days, those 10 cigs are mostly at home. 10:16:19 Good. 10:16:40 I don't smoke at work at all anymore. 10:16:48 Get that down to zero. 10:16:51 It's the Wellbutrin. 10:17:05 I get cravings but the meds make me not care about them so much. 10:17:59 One week of not smoking will give me enough money to bye QF. 10:18:07 Very good :) 10:18:08 Week and a Half... 10:18:48 Buy i mean, being that you _can_ bye QF and that makes total sence to some forther. 10:19:00 heh. I didn't notice. 10:23:04 ChuckBot basic environment is about half finished. Need to work on the boarders/walls and the beepers. 10:23:50 Progress. 10:24:43 You'll beable to use it to introduce newbies to forth and programming, much like Richard Pattis did with Pascall, save you'll go all the way to the metal in a much shorter time. 10:26:54 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:29:10 Sounds good. 10:42:27 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 11:02:24 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 11:02:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 11:18:07 hi 11:18:25 Hi zpg, what's shaking? 11:19:59 hi zpg 11:22:41 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-d4bb2ff66f40eede) joined #forth 11:37:02 hey guys. not too much. 11:53:21 Ray_work: what's new at your end? 11:56:03 --- join: forther (n=forther@h-66-166-144-210.snvacaid.covad.net) joined #forth 12:02:56 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 12:42:46 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:43:17 --- quit: ygrek () 12:45:52 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #forth 12:45:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 13:09:53 hi Quartus_ 13:28:25 * Crest is back (gone 04:39:14) 13:29:01 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:30:42 hi Crest 13:31:32 hi zpg 13:31:43 hi 13:31:59 ah somebody alive 13:32:28 * zpg gives up trying to change fonts in Emacs 13:33:34 Heh 13:36:08 brb 13:36:09 --- quit: zpg (Remote closed the connection) 13:38:45 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 13:40:47 nice, each i have different fonts in my two emacs frames. 13:41:17 http://forth.pastebin.ca/229690 13:42:41 i were a little bored 13:43:01 of course their are more efficent ways to solve sudokus 13:44:20 but it results in an interessting sytax ;) 13:46:25 you've gone to some trouble there to set up a 'message object' ordering. 13:46:50 yes i did 13:48:22 interesting stuff. 13:48:30 there's an argument to be made for 'object message'. 13:48:32 * zpg gives up on A+ and looks at J 13:48:50 Quartus_: the first being, it's free in forth. 13:48:51 roll up. 13:51:14 roll up? 13:51:31 (roll up)^2 13:51:39 solving sodukus, who actually solves them? why are they interesting? 13:54:16 Lots of people enjoy puzzles. 13:57:54 I enjoy lots of people. Oh and puzzles as well. 13:58:21 * Ray_work played doom for the mazes and not the shoot-em-up. 13:58:32 MYST is a cool puzzle. 13:59:26 * Ray_work googles soduku which I assume is the singular of the plural sodukus. soduki? 14:00:03 well, I like puzzles in computer games 14:00:24 why would you pluralise Sudoku? 14:01:08 virl did, not me. I read it in a chat room, like 8 or so lines up. 14:02:19 i saw. 14:02:28 Shame of it is is that this is the magic square and I know all of the magic square algorithms and this would just be like a word search or maybe even like filling in a the table of all of the keys in music using just the key of c. 14:02:32 'why would one pluralise...' 14:02:51 Ray_work: pardon? 14:04:41 Oh hey, i'm wrong. Cool. Further investigation proves that I don't know **** about soduku. 14:04:53 :) 14:04:54 or is it sudoku 14:05:07 it's in most of the papers here, was a fad for a while. not sure if that applies in the USA too. 14:05:13 sudoku 14:05:30 Here as well. 14:05:32 (Sweden) 14:05:36 * zpg nods 14:05:54 (Robert: here=UK) 14:05:58 hi Robert, how the heck are ya, man, long time... 14:06:04 Hey, Ray 14:06:11 How's school this year? 14:06:12 Not bad, now playing with Commodore BASIC ;) 14:06:17 neat. 14:06:37 Pretty good, things are going well and now I'm starting to be able to pick interesting courses 14:06:46 Yeah.. just some simple calculations. 14:06:59 their exist several c64 forth systems 14:07:00 It's fun for a change to save your programs to a tape. 14:07:01 zpg /me noticed the other night that when your haveing 'levensies, I'm having high-tea. 14:07:07 Crest: Yeah, I have a bunch. 14:07:19 But I never got into any. 14:07:49 ultra forth ( later renamed to volks forth ) .oO( who names a software project like this ) 14:08:14 I have FIG-Forth, Blazin' Forth, and I think some other too. 14:12:01 Ray_work: i'm guessing you're 6 hours behind GMT. 14:16:13 :) 14:17:05 You guess correct, sir! Johnny, tell him what he's won. An all expense paid trip to the kitchen for another pot. 14:23:46 * Crest is away: … 14:27:31 * erider vanished.... 14:28:30 Ray_work: heh 14:31:52 --- join: mark4 (n=mark4@67.135.84.40) joined #forth 14:32:17 hi mark4 14:32:25 hi 14:33:01 are you mwk? 14:36:32 mwk ? 14:38:23 that's probably a no. 14:38:35 * zpg greets mark4 14:38:59 what is mwk ? 14:39:19 :) 14:39:29 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r__ 14:39:36 :) 14:39:39 :) 14:40:24 --- nick: I440r__ -> mark4 14:40:30 i dont like the ____ nicknames :P 14:41:10 lol sry 14:41:34 Ior! 14:42:15 heh 14:42:30 Sorry, but that's what I think when I see the I440r nick. ;) 14:42:30 robert your supposed to be idle 14:42:36 Oh, sorry. 14:42:38 I will be soon. 14:42:39 :) 14:42:53 Its "Ibanez 440 radius" 14:43:01 Yeah, I've read your web page ;) 14:43:04 440 being the frequency for A :) 14:43:04 He identified with his guitar. 14:43:43 The "radius" part of the name is because the fret board has a curvature to it (width wise not length wise) 14:44:04 I440r_ == mark4? 14:44:20 Passaniti: 'Now you've tossed in the 14:44:20 additional qualifier that it has to make John Doty go "wow." 14:44:24 :D 14:44:50 yes i dont know why i have THREE connections here. there should be me at work and me at home 14:45:00 maybe im connected from my laptop at home too 14:45:04 heh 14:45:06 i left it there this morning 14:48:49 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:50:05 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:56:34 somebody stole your laptop, mark 14:59:07 heh 14:59:16 time to give this power supply to my housemate, back later. 14:59:18 --- quit: zpg ("ttfn") 15:06:51 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:10:45 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:27:48 Hi 15:27:52 Hi. 15:27:56 http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3146 15:27:59 got one of these 15:28:03 as a toy :) 15:28:10 30 $ 15:28:23 FUn. 15:28:25 8bits RISC controller 15:28:42 4Mbits of Flash 15:30:03 temperature sensor , adc , serial port 15:30:19 Lots of goodies. 15:31:20 yes I bet you could have a lot of fun with forth 15:31:27 on something like this :) 15:31:27 Probably so. 15:33:08 even has a speaker 15:34:48 Beep beep! 15:35:21 actually a little more than beep bep 15:35:23 actually a little more than beep beep 15:35:27 Three beeps? 15:36:15 well the demo plays music 15:36:28 not polyphonic though 15:36:32 Still. 15:46:28 --- part: forther left #forth 16:09:56 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:10:29 --- join: erider (n=erider@nc-65-40-84-125.dyn.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 16:25:48 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 16:26:04 hi all 16:26:10 hey 16:26:18 howdy Quartus 16:26:26 google groups seems to be behaving oddly -- http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_frm/thread/6de56df999ce5684 16:29:33 minor hiccup probably 16:29:53 That particular thread is a load of nonsense at any rate. 16:30:20 true 16:34:43 The Atmel parts are pretty nice. I've written a lot of code for them, although pretty much in C. The architecture was designed from the start to be C friendly, and they did a pretty good job. 16:35:02 I think there are 2 or 3 freeware Forths for it, last time I checked. One is a tethered system. 16:36:21 The '169 is an older part, at this point. 16:37:25 And www.avrfreaks.com is a great resource. 16:37:49 er, .net 16:38:41 http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?module=Freaks%20Tools&func=viewItem&item_id=716 16:39:27 And, of course, SwiftX Forth. $450, bleh 16:39:47 http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Software/pfavr/rationale.html 16:40:36 SwiftX is supported. From a professional standpoint, that'd be worth the $450. 16:42:06 From a professional standpoint, yes. 16:42:42 MPE also has a Forth, as does RamTech. However, RamTech doesn't list prices, which either means it's too expensive, or it's complete crap. 16:42:44 Or both. 16:45:54 Don't know. 16:48:09 This was the Atmel that caught my eye. 4 bits + forth! http://www.atmel.com/products/MARC4/ 16:49:27 * vatic would love to crunch some numbers with that... 16:49:49 all 16 of them. 16:50:07 heh 16:50:44 http://www.atmelonline.com/magazine/pdf/v_5/v_5_pg_46-48.pdf 16:53:20 I saw this part when it first came out, but never pursued it. I'm still unclear if qForth actually comes with it or not. 16:58:06 --- quit: mark4 ("Leaving") 16:59:15 okay, just tinkering here but perhaps someone could point out the obvious-- 16:59:16 : until-cr begin key dup emit cr? if leave then again ; 16:59:22 where ==> 16:59:38 : cr? 13 = ; 16:59:57 this works fine, and we leave the infinite loop, but gforth then tells me: "Address alignment exception" 17:00:14 leave is only for use inside do/loop loops. 17:00:18 ahhh 17:00:20 thanks. 17:00:30 how does one break from a begin ... again ? 17:00:54 You don't. It's a closed loop. You use begin/until or begin/while/repeat. 17:01:02 okay, so the idiom's wrong. 17:01:03 that's fine. 17:01:12 You can certainly EXIT from a begin/again, that exits the whole definition. 17:02:25 : until-cr begin key dup emit cr? 0= while repeat 17:02:34 ; 17:02:43 that okay? 17:02:47 That's unnecessary -- : until-cr begin key dup emit cr? until ; 17:02:56 aha 17:03:26 though 'until-cr' is a horrible name for that. 17:03:34 i know, i hacked it up 17:03:42 And there comes the question of 'why not use ACCEPT?' 17:04:26 In this case, you're stopping to let the user type random crap that'll be echo'd on-screen until he sends a CR. 17:04:36 At which point the input is lost. 17:04:56 : echo-input begin key dup emit cr? until cr ." Done." ; 17:05:08 i was actually trying to demo 'leave' to a friend. 17:05:23 You're already emitting the cr, so you don't need to send out another one after the until. 17:05:42 nope, that seems to mess up my terminal, try it in gforth 17:06:04 Because you're only emitting the 13, not the 10 (LF). 17:06:09 ah 17:06:23 Windows is CR/LF. 17:06:41 : echo-input begin key dup emit cr? until 10 emit ." Done." ; 17:06:44 this is unix 17:06:53 but even so, the carriage return does what it says on the tin 17:06:57 Under unix, it's lf-only. 17:07:06 hmm okay 17:07:17 but the return key is understood as carriage return. 17:07:18 Anyway, LEAVE is for early-exit from a counted DO loop. 17:07:31 i know, we covered that (helpfully) above. 17:07:43 really nice to learn something when you don't expect to :) 17:07:44 EXIT would be the closest match for a BEGIN/AGAIN, though I'd suggest using a WHILE or UNTIL loop instead. 17:07:56 yes, this idiom seems quite nice 17:08:32 the 10 emit is a little ugly though 17:08:57 Yes, you might want to match against the end-of-line character before the emit, and do a CR after. 17:09:48 ... begin key dup cr? not while emit repeat drop cr ." Done" ; where not is : not 0= ; or : not invert ; 17:10:09 this is a little uggly too --> : echo-input begin key dup cr? if 1 else emit 0 then until ; 17:10:29 that's extraordinarily ugly, and completely unnecccssary. 17:10:33 heh 17:11:55 : echo-input begin key dup cr? 0= while emit repeat drop cr ; 17:12:13 RIght, that' s what I just said, except I used not. 17:12:13 oh, you posted almost that already 17:12:17 * zpg nods 17:12:22 sorry, i'd tabbed back to polish again 17:12:41 this might be small-fry, but i really like clarifying these smaller examples. i think it's useful in the long-run 17:14:03 There are 2 types of loop in Forth: counted, and uncounted. Counted are DO/LOOP, with ?DO and +LOOP variants, and the associated UNLOOP and LEAVE words. Uncounted are BEGIN/AGAIN, BEGIN/UNTIL, and BEGIN/WHILE/REPEAT (including BEGIN/WHILE/WHILE/REPEAT/THEN variants). 17:14:36 * zpg nods 17:14:40 Technically recursion is another form of looping. 17:14:42 i've never used UNLOOP 17:14:59 I can't recall the last time I used UNLOOP. 17:15:28 what's it do? 17:15:52 Drops the LOOP parameters. It's always ... DO ... IF UNLOOP EXIT THEN ... LOOP 17:16:32 i don't quite follow, which parameters? 17:16:53 Can't you just begin key? until key drop ? 17:16:55 The loop paramters, usually stored on the return stack. The loop index and limits. 17:16:58 * erider is not understanding [ ] and why its important hmm... compile on compile off 17:18:20 vatic: the code reads and emits all keys pressed until you hit return 17:18:48 zpg: ah, OK... 17:20:47 C+ Programmers ! . 17:20:58 C+? 17:21:08 THINK ? 17:21:12 damnit, the new iTerm is flakey 17:21:28 jcwren: LUDDITES, clearly 17:21:44 werty's been silent for a few days. 17:22:00 back in Thailand no doubt... 17:22:01 i like werty a lot more than Doty 17:22:15 slava: agreed. 17:22:31 not only that, but SF is now using hover-over menus. 17:22:38 Yes, werty is just an idiot; Doty is a narrow-minded troll. 17:22:52 although I can see how with a few lobotomies, Doty can become werty 17:23:03 i'd glad i'm not using SF for much anymore 17:23:08 a bit of Perl too 17:23:17 slava: where is factorcode.org hosted? 17:23:18 Werty can probably not help his moronic outbursts; Doty does it deliberately. 17:23:24 zpg: linode 17:23:33 Quartus: werty could help it, years ago. 17:23:44 Maybe. 17:23:59 zpg: its a user mode linux VM. the httpd is written in factor 17:24:02 this lse64 stuff is pretty confusing too 17:24:09 slava: oh that's interesting. 17:24:12 --- join: ttuttle (n=tom@unaffiliated/ttuttle) joined #forth 17:24:20 Quartus: Hey. 17:24:25 Quartus: /me has a random question. 17:24:54 Hey ttuttle. Long time. 17:25:06 so in lse64, you write sq : dup * ; because : retroactively modifies the input stream? 17:25:16 Quartus: Do you trust PayPal at all? I'm thinking about setting up an account with them, but I've heard so many horror stories about people whose accounts were wiped clean for some reason out of their control, like someone sent them money from a stolen credit card, or complained about something. 17:25:24 ttuttle, I've had no trouble with PayPal. 17:25:55 slava, I have no idea. I think the sq : part is right, as unknown strings are just left on the stack, and his : doesn't forward-parse. 17:26:05 I have no idea if it has dup, or *. 17:26:12 Quartus: How is your account backed? Bank account, or credit|debit card? 17:26:41 Quartus: (/me assumes a debit card would be safer than a checking account, especially since it's got a daily withdrawl limit.) 17:26:55 ttuttle, both; I can choose where deductions come from. I default to the bank account. 17:26:59 ttuttle: my money -> Quartus' wallet was a smooth transaction ;) 17:27:18 slava, as far as I know there's no ; -- end-of-line is end-of-definition. 17:27:25 is LSE something that Doty modified, or created? 17:27:26 odd. 17:27:34 (apart from being a London Uni that is) 17:27:37 It's some kind of crippled version of STOIC. 17:27:37 zpg: lol 17:27:39 Quartus: Ah. 17:27:44 its some undead 20 year old dialect of forth 17:27:51 one line defs? ouch. 17:27:57 is that in the interests of 'good coding style'? 17:28:03 or 'bad implementation' 17:28:07 Quartus: /me would never trust them with direct access to his bank account, unless he left the account empty most of the time, which his bank wouldn't like. 17:28:15 ttuttle, I'm not as paranoid as some. 17:28:26 ttuttle: you realise that "I" is two character shorter than "/me", right? 17:28:26 ok, looking at the lse doc -- there is a dup. 17:28:33 Quartus: link? 17:28:51 http://space.mit.edu/home/jpd/ 17:28:58 zpg: Yeah. It's just a habit. 17:29:00 zpg: ;-) 17:29:15 Remember while you read the LSE docs that this is the future, and the rest of us are lost. 17:29:28 he has docs? 17:29:37 incidentally, since we're talking Doty and crippling syntax, one thing that does irk me about python (it seems eiffel and haskell have the same:) is indentation to delimit blocks. really stupid. 17:29:38 A .txt 17:30:03 zpg, I admit that puts me off as well. 17:30:27 apparently, LSE "lacks the miserable complexities of Standard Forth". 17:30:30 who knew? 17:30:57 It lacks the useful features, as well. 17:31:13 Quartus: yes, i've used python for various library-related reasons, and quite liked the general environment. but one thing i couldn't fathom / make sense of were indented blocks. talk about write-once. took me ages to move a small block of code due to tabstop issues. 17:31:18 It does have all the miserable complexities of LSE64, though. 17:31:20 Quartus: no no, it lacks the distractions. 17:32:02 i looked at Iverson's J earlier, quite interesting 17:32:32 ttuttle, you could always set up a separate bank account for PayPal. 17:32:48 Are there languages for every single letter of the alphabet? 17:33:00 ttuttle: seriously though, i've never had any problems. i'm not a huge ebayer, but have used the account quite a bit. 17:33:09 vatic: perhaps 17:33:10 I've had zero problems with paypal since 2000... 17:33:31 B C J spring to mind immediately. 17:33:36 There's a D. 17:33:40 and an F 17:33:45 APL stands for A Programming Language. 17:33:50 yep 17:33:56 accidental title 17:34:49 This is from the Wikipedia entry for J: quicksort =: ($:@(}.#~{.>:}.),{.,[:$:}.#~{.<}.)`]@.(2:>#) 17:35:01 That's got to win some kind of prize for unreadability. 17:35:28 My Hayes modem used to kick up more readable software when somebody picked up the extension. 17:37:35 Quartus: Hahahaha!!! 17:37:42 biab... 17:37:47 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 17:41:13 ttuttle, I've been using PayPal for years, both as a seller and a buyer. Never had a problem. 17:42:58 You know why we used to put +++ATH at the top right of all our press releases? 17:43:14 To indicate that you were nerds? 17:43:32 Because if you had a non-Hayes modem, it would hang up on you. Unless, of course, they violated the '302 patent, which was the guard time around the +++. 17:44:20 No modem I ever had would hang up on me on receiving a +++ATH, guard time or no; I'd have to send that out to the modem in order for it to be accepted as a command to hang-up. 17:45:17 Yet, in spite of that, many did. 17:46:20 I must have had a dozen of different brands; I can warrant that none of them would do that. No command sequences were processed from external input, just from data received from the computer. If you were echoing out everything you received, it might. I can't recall any that didn't support the guard time, but it's possible. 17:46:59 We ran into that with the DPAC 802.11b modules, which uses ~~~ds as an escape sequence. Seems when we were uploading firmware to our lock, when the radio saw that sequence (which was in our code, for when we talk to the radio), it would cause the radio to drop into command mode. Which really broke everything. 17:47:35 There were a number of people who did license the guard time patent. In fact, that become something of a revenue stream towards the end-days. 17:48:05 But I can assure you that's why we put them that in there. And it would disconnect a number of modems. Sorry, but it's a fact. 17:48:58 Any modem that would accept any command string from the phone side would be broken in far more fundamental ways than just not supporting a guard time. I'm glad I never ran into one. 17:49:58 yeah 17:51:57 I just called my friend who used to work in the PR department. We put them in there so when other people hosted our press releases, if they had non-Hayes modems, it would disconnect. 17:53:15 Hosted. That's a different animal. If you send +++ATH to a modem with a guard time of zero, it'll hang up, yes. 17:53:44 incidentally, i don't suppose by some magic gforth has a 'scripting' mode whereby user-entered commands are stored and can be output to a file? 17:53:55 Why you would want to sabotage somebody who was advertising for you, I'm not sure. 17:54:13 zpg, it has a scrollback history, lives in ~/.gforth-history by default as I recall 17:54:22 that's pretty useful 17:54:28 The logic, apparently, was that people who were advertising for us SHOULD be using Hayes modems. 17:54:39 very useful in fact 17:54:40 thanks. 17:54:44 jcwren, that's some new use of the word 'logic' that I haven't run into before. :) 17:54:54 You're dealing with people in advertising. 17:55:03 They think they can sell you cars by shouting at you, remember? 17:55:15 There are some very sharp people in advertising. Apparently Hayes didn't pay well enough. 17:55:34 That's probably part of the reason. 17:56:02 The other was that Dennis was a self-centered ego maniac surrounded by yes-men, and people giving him bad advice and dumb ideas. 17:56:14 If I hosted a Hayes press release, and discovered that some moron at Hayes had stuck something in there with the express purpose of screwing with me, I'd not only never advertise for them again, I'd never buy their crap. 17:56:20 This is the same guy that had a *permanent* table reserved at the Oasis. A local strip club. 17:56:47 In fact just hearing about this I'm retroactively annoyed at Hayes. Are they still in business? I hope so, so I can boycott their incompetent asses. 17:56:51 That's a nice theory, except for selling Hayes modems made a lot of people a lot of money because of the ridiculous markup we had. 17:57:02 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:57:21 http://stoical.sourceforge.net/summary.php 18:00:37 One of the dumbest things about just about all modems was the modality of data mode/command mode. It makes it impossible to determine what data rate the modem is running at, since you can't request the various registers while you're in command mode. You could escape to command mode, but then you'd risk missing data. I always maintained the modems should have streams or channels. 18:00:58 But no, they had to be backwards compatible to the AND gate. 18:01:32 well, wasn't the data rate reported at connect time? 18:01:41 Yes, but it can renegotiate at any time. 18:03:00 We had at least one model that had an LCD on the front that would display the real-time data rate, along with some other metrics, but there was no way for the host to get at that data while in data mode. 18:03:25 holdover from the fact that the early ones didn't renegotiate, I ugess. 18:04:38 hash table are in forth? 18:04:40 In part. More due to the fact that modems prior to the SmartModem 300 didn't have a command mode. Mostly because they used an acoustic coupler, like the Novation Cat. 18:05:03 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l325b.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 18:12:45 hi again vatic 18:13:22 wowsers -- "Moore, though clinically insane, has continued to extend his language over the years." -- what is it with Chuck-bashing? 18:13:54 zpg, not to equate the two men, but I think of Einstein -- virtually every picture you'll find of him is as an old man, with disheveled hair, no socks, and a sweatshirt. 18:14:04 zpg: I believe Doty and Liles are related in some way through this: http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/microchip/names.html 18:14:07 When he did his great work, he was clean & trim and young. 18:15:43 perhaps. i just find it odd that people are so ready to flame away. 18:16:13 So I think the tendency is to bolster one's own self-esteem by reducing the status of one's superiors. 18:16:18 of course Walter Pitts really did go off the deep end... 18:16:34 And Howard Hughs 18:16:56 jcwren: did Hughes have anything to do with computing? 18:17:28 Quartus: yes, that's a pretty sound point. 18:17:32 ...or the sciences? 18:17:36 btw -- who was looking for fireside 2005, i forget? 18:17:37 Yes. 18:17:40 Global Explorer./ 18:18:02 as it stands, adding a new primitive to factor requires updating several source files 18:18:05 --- part: erider left #forth 18:18:20 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 18:18:23 its a bit of a pain. i hardly ever mess with primitives though 18:20:37 --- log: started forth/06.10.30 18:20:37 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 18:20:37 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 18:20:37 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 18:20:37 --- names: list (clog erider timlarson__ vatic ttuttle zpg @Quartus_ neceve_ segher Crest Snoopy42 virl virsys nanstm @slava arke Teratogen TreyB saon @Quartus lukeparrish juri_ @JasonWoof jcwren @I440r Robert cmeme madwork timlarson @crc larsb warpzero madgarden ccfg nighty ohub) 18:20:44 squeak 18:20:46 so i'm guessing most of the primitives were written in there too. 18:20:49 squeak's vm generation is pretty crap 18:21:02 howso? 18:21:47 He also got to do some pretty heavy duty engineering: In 1943, Howard Hughes designed a cantilevered brassiere for Jane Russell for her appearance in the movie The Outlaw, although Russell later asserted that she never wore it. [9] This "lifts and separates" design went on to influence later commercial brassieres. 18:23:20 jcwren: we started out talking about Moore and Einstein. Do you want to open it up to any crazy person? 18:23:30 Werty was sane once... 18:23:46 er, must have been,,, 18:23:52 You drug in Walter Pitts. 18:24:04 jcwren: and? 18:24:48 he was a student of Carnap's 18:25:04 brilliant work in cybernetics... 18:25:21 There's no evidence Werty was ever sane. 18:25:52 i doubt insanity is an appropriate label. 18:27:27 Quartus: Well, he's sane at moments enough to work a computer. I knew a guy that used to zone out and start driving down the wrong side of the street. 18:27:40 Operating machinery does not require sanity. 18:29:32 Interesting thought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanity 18:30:34 Right. You may be thinking of psychosis, and even then it doesn't necessarily preclude being functional in various ways. 18:31:02 Why does the discussion in this channel always drift towards psychological problems? 18:31:03 Quartus: oh, I'm not disagreeing with you... 18:31:09 I'm not nagging, I'm just curious. 18:31:26 ttuttle: ...drift forth? 18:31:27 ttuttle, we're all CRAZY of course. Seriously, I don't recall such a converstation happening before, but maybe that's my personal psychosis bubbling up. 18:31:32 lol 18:31:53 too much LSE... 18:31:57 I'm pretty sure it's come up before--usually in the context of us trying to figure out what the f*** was wrong with some user who just left. 18:32:12 I don't know. There are kooks in every group. 18:32:15 lol 18:32:25 Werty is just an exceptionally bizarre example. 18:32:26 well, I'll be leaving soon... 18:33:05 heh 18:34:52 i could run 'sudo make install' for lse, but i'm not sure that's wise. 18:35:07 It wouldn't build in my environment. I didn't pursue it. 18:39:12 well, i followed the earlier link and downloaded it 18:39:28 i'm wary of installing small programmes as the superuser when they rely on inbuilt strings referencing /usr/local 18:40:09 I think you'd be wasting your time in any event. 18:41:24 indeed 18:45:22 zpg: is squeak for kids? 18:45:42 no 18:45:50 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 18:46:10 slava: no 18:49:05 that's what he said, no. 18:49:19 lol 18:50:01 Wikipedia is your friend. 18:50:10 erider: no 18:50:13 Trix are for kids... 18:50:17 erider: and yes 18:50:18 silly rabbit 18:50:24 squeak is not for kids 18:50:36 smalltalk has always been intended as an education tool 18:50:40 age irrespective 18:50:50 its been used for some serious stuff too. 18:50:56 check out squeakland 18:51:02 slava: of course 18:51:06 seaside for exampel 18:51:43 http://www.create.ucsb.edu/Siren/ 18:52:17 yes, that's neat. 18:52:31 squeak is java on crack 18:52:47 (if it's what i think it is -- the music suit right? watching 2004 fireside at the moment, so browser is a little locked up) 18:52:49 in many ways its a lot more advanced than java 18:52:50 erider: that's baloney 18:53:07 erider, you need to do your research. Read the wikipedia articles. Otherwise you're trolling. 18:53:41 this is an interesting video actually. coloforth on usb. 18:53:54 I'm reading http://www.objectsroot.com/squeak/ 18:53:59 although squeak's ui is pretty odd 18:54:18 it has some nice concepts 18:54:22 i found morphic both intuitive and arcane at the same time. 18:54:29 used it almost constantly for about a year 18:55:06 but there's the documentation issue; there always has been with smalltalk. everything's browsable, but you sometimes spend hours figuring out how to get everything working nicely. and when the 'everything' is the GUI, it becomes a little tough. 19:05:05 --- log: started forth/06.10.30 19:05:05 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 19:05:05 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 19:05:05 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 19:05:05 --- names: list (clog_ nighty_ clog erider timlarson__ vatic zpg @Quartus_ neceve_ segher Crest Snoopy42 virl virsys nanstm @slava arke Teratogen TreyB saon @Quartus lukeparrish juri_ @JasonWoof jcwren @I440r Robert cmeme madwork timlarson @crc larsb ohub nighty ccfg madgarden warpzero) 19:07:06 watching this 2004 chat by cmoore, i'm pretty irked by those throway 'chuck's gone off the rails' comments. 19:07:15 *throw-away 19:07:50 zpg: I'm sure he's comfortable by the fireside... 19:07:55 whatever your perspective on colorforth, it's clear moore's aim is simplicity, irrespective of the problem domain... that isn't insane, it's the philosophy that led to forth. 19:08:03 vatic: quite possibly. 19:08:08 I don't know about rails. I personally think colorForth is a waste of his talents, but I don't fault him for pursuing whatever directions he wants to pursue; it's his life. 19:08:09 not a hearth in site though. 19:08:28 Quartus: yeah, that seems fair. 19:09:06 Quartus: btw, do your mystery-3k robots run forth? 19:09:32 Mystery Science Theater 3000? They run on string & elastic. :) 19:09:40 ah ok :) 19:09:48 They are, in fact, puppets. 19:09:55 heh - ah well 19:10:27 It'd be fun to do the animatronics, though. I wonder if there's anything on the market that would make that easy? 19:11:06 on the puppetry side or programming side? 19:11:07 pupamatronics ? 19:11:16 Some wav-file playback, running a couple of solenoids. Programming I can do. 19:11:47 reverse engineer extreme elmo 19:11:59 implement a forth 19:12:13 Painful. I'd rather buy new. 19:12:14 btw - anyone know of any key videos from past FIGs that are kicking about? 19:12:28 zpg, I think doty sells'em on a cd 19:12:34 sorry. Fox. 19:12:35 doty ? 19:12:38 aha 19:13:03 heh ok 19:13:15 this OKAD 2 stuff is pretty interesting actually 19:13:21 there are some older ones up though, try quartus.net/search moore video 19:13:24 --- quit: clog (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:13:24 --- nick: clog_ -> clog 19:13:42 Quartus: okie doke, shall look in a bit -- might look for some Raskin too. 19:13:51 http://www.ultratechnology.com/rmvideo.htm 19:14:04 i think google video search for ultratechnology is pretty comprehensive too. 19:14:37 yeah, that list is all on google now i think (or at least, most of them are) 19:21:25 http://www.cooltoyworld.com/New_Toys/Elmo_Knows_Your_Name_Plush_Doll.jpg 19:22:51 searching on "digital puppetry" nets some interesting stuff: http://sourceforge.net/projects/panda-puppet/ 19:23:03 scary URL :) 19:25:34 OK, I'm done: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6216 19:26:42 The control aspect is trivial; finding an on-board controller that's flexible and cheap enough is the challenge. 19:27:20 My digging shows some boards for the purpose in the $100-$200 range. Bit steep. 19:28:14 not too bad in terms of GBP though 19:28:34 It'd boost the price of my puppets too much, I think. Be fun, though. 19:31:09 as regards brilliance and convention, re our Moore conversation earlier, here's a quote I came across a while back that I discussed with somebody here (can't recall who!): http://www.bartleby.com/66/48/24648.html 19:31:25 --- join: tgkuo3 (n=tgkuo3@125-233-4-39.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 19:31:33 --- part: tgkuo3 left #forth 19:33:09 Here's another one: http://www.bartleby.com/66/35/24635.html 19:34:31 heh - nice. 19:38:33 I like the "Tackle Box Robot": http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200610/article4/index.php 19:38:45 Raskin: "I managed a large project based on Forth, and the result was very readable and maintainable." 19:38:49 http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=22 19:38:51 didn't know this existing (the commercial, that is) -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3953309968260107254&q=jef+raskin 19:39:29 Quartus: there was much kafuffle over Archy/RCHI/THE being written in Python 19:40:03 zpg, you just exceeded my acronym limit of exactly one acronym per line. 19:40:36 heh 19:41:00 or should I say, "OMG LOL" (the answer is 'no') 19:43:56 incidentally, the Leap mullet is worth my time alone. 19:44:05 erm, 'leap mullet alone is worth my time' 19:44:24 mullet? The guy's hair? 19:45:14 yes 19:46:14 there's also 4 minutes of outro piano 19:47:11 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 19:48:03 Quartus: got an old laptop? http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_robot.htm 19:48:55 Not one that'd fit inside a Tom Servo. :) 19:52:16 heh 19:57:43 OK, I'm brain-dead. Later, all... 19:57:50 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 19:59:06 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:53:36 --- log: started forth/06.10.30 20:53:36 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 20:53:36 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 20:53:36 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 20:53:36 --- names: list (clog forther nighty__ erider timlarson__ zpg @Quartus_ neceve_ segher Crest Snoopy42 virl virsys nanstm @slava arke Teratogen TreyB saon @Quartus lukeparrish juri_ @JasonWoof jcwren @I440r Robert cmeme madwork timlarson @crc larsb warpzero madgarden ccfg nighty ohub) 21:18:24 --- log: started forth/06.10.30 21:18:24 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 21:18:24 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 21:18:24 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 21:18:24 --- names: list (clog arke_ forther nighty__ erider timlarson__ @Quartus_ neceve_ segher Crest Snoopy42 virl virsys nanstm @slava arke Teratogen TreyB saon @Quartus lukeparrish juri_ @JasonWoof jcwren @I440r Robert cmeme madwork timlarson @crc larsb ohub nighty ccfg madgarden warpzero) 21:29:58 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 21:35:00 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:54:14 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 22:04:26 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:51:28 --- part: forther left #forth 22:59:32 --- join: tattrdkat (n=virsys@or-71-53-68-118.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 23:00:08 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54897BA0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:08:39 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:11:41 --- quit: virsys (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:31:21 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:38:31 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 23:44:11 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:44 --- join: arke (i=Chris@x11.vpn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de) joined #forth 23:59:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.10.30