00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.10.28 00:04:31 --- join: forthe1 (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:06:31 --- part: forthe1 left #forth 00:08:53 --- join: forthe1 (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:25:00 --- join: arke (n=Chris@pD9E07D93.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:25:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 00:26:38 --- quit: JasonWoof (Remote closed the connection) 00:26:39 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 00:26:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 00:27:48 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:31:24 --- part: forthe1 left #forth 00:36:56 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 01:05:32 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 01:16:17 --- join: Joely (n=eliveuse@68.249.183.228) joined #forth 01:19:12 --- quit: Cheery (Remote closed the connection) 01:53:38 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 01:54:42 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 02:00:56 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 02:15:39 --- quit: Cheery (Remote closed the connection) 02:15:48 --- join: ASau (n=user@195.98.180.4) joined #forth 02:24:01 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 02:25:04 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:35:29 --- quit: virl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:51:04 --- join: ASau` (n=user@195.98.180.4) joined #forth 03:51:05 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:24:42 --- join: crest__ (n=crest@p548963E9.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:35:12 --- quit: crest_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:12:04 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:22:27 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 05:22:47 good morning all 05:29:36 Good evening. 05:29:47 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 05:30:53 ASau: hey! 05:31:46 ASau: why won't this thingy work; : test 1 ?do i + . loop ; 05:32:02 How do you call it? 05:32:36 3 test 05:32:49 Insert "dup" before "." 05:33:19 can you explain to me why please 05:33:24 Or move "." after "loop". 05:33:44 "." drops the top stack cell. 05:34:41 *the terminal*:21: Stack underflow 05:34:41 3 test 05:34:41 ^^^^ 05:34:54 Of course it underflows. 05:35:00 "." drops the top stack cell. 05:35:19 : test 0 ?do i + loop . ; redefined test ok 05:36:01 And? 05:36:07 that didn't fix it 05:37:30 Provide one more cell on stack. 05:37:34 0 3 test 05:38:01 "?do" takes two top cells. 05:38:33 but I thought 0 would be on the stack 05:38:48 You were wrong. 05:39:23 so it went from ( n -- answer ) to ( n1 n2 -- answer ) ? 05:39:44 : test ( x1 x2 ) 0 ?do ( x1 ) i + ( x1' ) loop ( x1' ) . ( ) ; 06:01:19 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 06:04:49 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 06:10:30 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 06:36:33 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 06:37:09 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 06:37:52 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:42:50 --- nick: crest__ -> Crest 06:44:25 * Crest is back (gone 02:19:52) 06:44:38 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:49:20 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:02:59 good morning azekeprofit, nighty, virl 07:38:57 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:03:55 --- join: virl_ (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth 08:04:18 --- quit: virl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:07:44 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-147-073.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 08:18:14 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-60-46.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:20:58 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 08:21:41 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:21:50 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 08:24:39 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:24:46 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 08:43:05 --- quit: virl_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:56:15 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-16e8a697d206886c) joined #forth 08:57:36 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 09:03:29 --- join: ygrek (i=user@gateway/tor/x-6e762791413a634f) joined #forth 09:07:03 --- join: ygrek_ (i=user@gateway/tor/x-99018287f544fa73) joined #forth 09:23:24 --- quit: ygrek (Remote closed the connection) 09:38:59 --- quit: ygrek_ () 09:40:04 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:43:36 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 09:53:56 --- log: started forth/06.10.28 09:53:56 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 09:53:56 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 09:53:56 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 09:53:56 --- names: list (clog jackokring azekeprofit Raystm2 Snoopy42 nighty__ Crest Cheery Joely @JasonWoof @arke cmeme @Quartus_ I440r_ madwork neceve_ fission virsys timlarson TreyB jcw Zarutian @crc larsb I440r ohub @Quartus nighty ccfg madgarden warpzero juri_ lukeparrish) 09:57:06 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 10:05:17 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:11:11 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:14:10 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 12:40:48 --- log: started forth/06.10.28 12:40:48 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 12:40:48 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | http://quartus.net/search | Paste: http://forth.pastebin.ca' 12:40:48 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Tue Oct 24 17:49:49 2006] 12:40:48 --- names: list (clog jackokring erider azekeprofit Raystm2 Snoopy42 nighty__ Crest Cheery Joely @JasonWoof @arke cmeme @Quartus_ I440r_ madwork neceve_ fission virsys timlarson TreyB jcw Zarutian @crc larsb I440r lukeparrish juri_ warpzero madgarden ccfg nighty @Quartus ohub) 12:45:40 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7663.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 12:47:03 hi Quartus 12:47:20 Hey. 12:47:38 how are you feeling today 12:47:45 evening. 12:47:50 Nothing strong drink won't cure. How are you? 12:47:51 Hi zpg. 12:48:09 * erider is working on forth 12:48:11 hi Quartus 12:48:14 hi zpg 12:48:39 hi erider 12:49:04 Quartus don't drink to much :) 12:49:14 heh. I don't. 12:50:00 cool! it will make you sleepy and sleep is the cousin of death 12:50:16 No it isn't. Try not sleeping for a week; death will come fast. 12:50:59 curious. 12:51:08 erider: 'working on forth'? 12:51:35 I looking at the gforth manual zpg 12:51:50 ah 12:52:27 s/I/am 13:02:33 --- join: jennyb (i=webmaste@figuk.plus.com) joined #forth 13:03:49 erider: i don't quite follow your goals for fisp (is that the right name?). are you familiar with Forth? 13:05:18 fisp is currently being coding in C 13:05:47 yes but isn't it some sort of lisp/forth bastard ? 13:06:01 fisp with take post-fix notation and stack processing 13:06:14 and thats about it 13:06:17 i see. 13:06:23 how would you describe fisp, in a sentence? 13:06:48 FISP Is (a) Silly Program 13:07:10 bah 13:07:55 a language to help programmers program 13:24:56 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:30:45 you sound like a politician. 13:31:27 Dude... that's harsh. 13:35:24 perhaps so. 13:36:06 Do it again. 13:36:23 erider: anything more specific than a programming language to aid programming? (kinda a default scenario - who writes a language that intentionally makes programming difficult?) 13:36:37 * jcw points at Python 13:37:30 zpg: have you look at the web site? 13:38:07 i did a while back. 13:38:10 link? 13:38:14 jcw: nonsense. 13:39:36 --- quit: jennyb () 13:39:46 http://thin.bespin.org/keowiki// 13:40:38 "Fisp is a programming language which grows from ideas in forth, lisp, and other sources." -- fair enough. erider: how many people are working on Fisp? 13:43:05 I think we have 3 or 4 people 13:43:31 are you lead developer? 13:44:31 no way 13:44:39 timlarson is the lead 13:46:05 zpg: are you interested in helping 13:46:26 I could email you or dcc the source code 13:46:59 oh i see, no i'm just curious. i'm just curious how far forth is influencing fisp, and your perspective on forth-vs-fisp in that respect. 13:48:21 I not really looking at the forth side of the code due to having to learn forth better myself 13:49:28 cheery is more of the forth guy to handle the forth side 13:49:47 what angle are you approaching from? 13:50:11 C and scheme 13:50:39 ah ok. 13:51:05 I'm what to make a good macro system for the core and use the language to write itself like it was a domain specify language 13:51:18 or meta-programming 13:51:49 s/what/wan 13:51:51 s/what/want 13:53:04 i see. 13:54:02 you're using RPN and parentheses? 13:55:21 the calculator? 13:57:15 no you mention that "fisp with take post-fix notation and stack processing", but it seems to have lisp-like parentheses 13:58:26 example ['Hello, world\n] outstr 13:59:02 why would you want to place a string in parentheses? 13:59:16 what's the advantage of that versus: "hi" outstr 13:59:16 ? 14:00:23 the advantage is it represents different notations 14:01:09 meaning? 14:03:01 [/ printf("hello, world\n")] outstr "nest different language" 14:03:49 oops subtract outstr 14:03:57 its not needed 14:07:13 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate") 14:08:38 curious 14:15:40 --- join: iano (n=iosgood@sub26-46.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth 14:18:26 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@65.244.197.34) joined #forth 14:39:33 * Raystm2 back. 14:40:23 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:04:44 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:04:44 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:09:06 --- join: jackokring (n=jackokri@static-195-248-105-144.adsl.hotchilli.net) joined #forth 15:09:51 What's up, anybody? 15:10:00 I'm playing more poker 15:10:31 Poker's cool. Winning? 15:11:04 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:18:12 currently 12/45 in the tourney :D 15:19:50 man I haven't done any Forth for a while 15:19:52 I probably should 15:20:06 get on it, man! :) 15:20:28 haha 15:27:00 --- quit: jackokring (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 15:28:49 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 15:47:32 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 15:54:15 --- quit: azekeprofit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:32:28 --- join: azekeprofit (i=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 16:51:28 hi 16:51:44 hey hey 16:51:57 howdy Quartus 16:57:41 hey zpg 16:58:20 hi again erider 17:01:56 Hey, I just tried turtle on the Palm. Neat. 17:02:09 That's an olde demo, goes way back to PilotForth. 17:02:13 turtle? sounds like Logo...? 17:02:23 just some turn and draw commands in Forth. 17:02:38 oh i see. 17:02:40 logo-style? 17:03:02 turn and forward words, in Forth. 17:03:08 and ink, as I recall. 17:03:40 20 ( deg left angle ) turn 80 fwd 17:04:04 Right. 45 turn 50 fwd type stuff. Draws a few snowflakes and things. 17:04:25 neat/ this your code, Quartus? 17:04:26 Oh really? Cool. Looking for those now. 17:04:31 Yes, from 9 or 10 years ago. 17:04:53 good stuff. 17:05:18 Raystm2: i've been getting more interested in chess AI of late, as you might have seen in here. ought to learn chess properly before i start tinkering with anything of course. 17:07:16 I tried porting my Forth chess program to Quartus. 17:07:24 It was hella slow 17:07:35 The Palm is not a powerhorse. 17:07:57 That really is an application that works best in C or assembly 17:08:09 Oh bad *** I just hilighted a modual, pulled up the search bar and there it is. Neat. 17:08:14 Certainly I'd think the evaluation function would benefit from optimization. 17:08:37 --- quit: vatic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:08:51 iano: which programme is this? 17:09:00 FCP 17:09:13 http://www.quirkster.com/forth/FCP.html 17:11:06 No, this is cool. 17:11:25 Programing on the palm is gonna be fun, isn't it. 17:11:32 ? 17:11:36 I enjoy it. 17:11:41 potentially frustrating though. 17:11:54 i need to pick up my palm kbd from the royal mail depot soonish 17:11:58 iano: ah, neat. 17:12:11 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:12:24 zpg: it is pure ANS, but assumes a 32-bit wide cell 17:12:45 zpg, all programming is frustrating. :) 17:13:00 Quartus: perhaps, perhaps. 17:13:04 zpg: even so, besides breaking it into memo-sized chunks, it wasn't hard to port 17:13:11 iano: neat. 17:13:15 iano, you could have left it in one chunk, as a Doc file. 17:13:24 Quartus: oh? 17:13:36 Yes, Quartus Forth can read doc files. 17:13:58 good stuff. 17:14:11 zpg, I bought one of those keyboards and it was about a dollar, 8 more to ship to my office, should be there on monday. 17:14:47 Raystm2: yeah, mine cost 10 GBP, but the mail service delivered it at noon and took it to a depot 30 mins away, never have time to go when i remember. never remember to go when i have time to. and so on. 17:14:55 not to mention them not answering the damned phone -- ever. 17:15:13 back shortly. 17:15:22 the most fun thing I did in Quartus was a Game of Life, working directly in bitmaps 17:15:39 Neat. I'm glad it's been fun. 17:18:03 Foody, brb. 17:18:35 zpg: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth2006/papers/ 17:28:04 --- join: forther (n=forther@c-67-180-209-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:44:00 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 17:51:17 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 17:59:46 --- part: forther left #forth 18:38:59 Quartus: Do you recomment the Palm OS Developers Suite, and the Emulator/ 18:39:00 ? 18:39:31 PODS is Eclipse with GCC in it, if you want to write in C, it's free, at least. 18:39:39 The emulator is quite useful. Separate product. 18:39:44 Here's an OS5 simulator, too. 18:40:10 er, There's. 18:44:39 I see. Thanks. 18:45:07 There are debug and gremlin modes on the emulator/simulator that let you stress-test your apps. 19:23:56 Cool. Thanks again. I guess I get the emulator, and start trying to design ChuckBot to use a Palm style interface. 19:25:57 Ooh I almost forgot to get your hacks. 19:26:16 They're useful. 19:42:33 Paul McCartney distraction... Please hold. 19:48:34 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 19:59:38 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:09:02 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 20:15:05 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 20:28:53 hi 20:28:59 hey 20:29:24 hi Quartus 20:29:30 what's up/ 20:29:52 not much, been milling in the kitchen with a few guests. 20:30:10 yourself? 20:30:27 Nothing too exciting. Writing a chapter on stack manipulation. 20:31:49 neat stuff. 20:31:58 cool! 20:31:59 had any thoughts on yesterday's query? ('where next') 20:32:46 ah yes. I don't think we're being held back. We're nowhere near maximizing what we've already got. So, where next? Carry on. 20:33:40 My best advice is to avoid programming fads 20:35:16 that seems sound, even outside the computing sphere (i.e., treat fads with scepticism) 20:37:06 Quartus very true statement 20:43:10 'where next' is far more applicable to the individual than to the industry. 20:51:12 oh, sure. it's just intriguing that we're in a #forth room discussion the forth language -- i think about code through the lenses of lisp and smalltalk. these languages are in the range 20-40 years old now. 20:52:17 the philosophy of underlying forth isn't necessarily bound to it, so i was wondering whether different solutions may offer themselves in 2006, and whether you'd come across any. the problem domain is key of course -- general languages and solutions are never going to satisfy fully. 20:54:29 I continue to see Forth programmers who could be doing something useful, instead fiddling with making variant implementations again, and again; I see legions of new programmers outside of Forth being taught Java and 'design patterns' as introductory courses; I see philosophical diatribes against the status quo instead of actual work. 20:54:44 --- join: EdLin (n=vim@as5300-3.216-194-7-157.nyc.ny.metconnect.net) joined #forth 20:55:34 I don't see productive philosophies breaking free and causing uncontrolled productivity, that's for sure. :) 20:58:07 I compare it with writing prose. You could create your own private languages again and again, or suggest that type should be red or green instead of black; you could complain that spelling should be more regularized; you could debate endlessly what font is best to use. Or you could write. 21:01:35 Or, hey, complain that English isn't as accessible as it could be for people who first learned German. Or that Spanish is a far preferable language, and that anyone who doesn't speak it is a madman. Or that a far simpler pidgin language would suffice for most normal everyday use, and so complex languages should be replaced by it. Etc. 21:02:15 perhaps; though i'm not sure the comparison with typesetting is apt. 21:02:41 It's apt -- consider colorForth. Consider integrated development environments. 21:03:25 i'm considering. 21:04:05 but i'm also thinking of how one expresses conceptual problems with a set of logic gates. the level of abstraction and the HCI are relevant. with a formal language as means of expression, difference in languange isn't simply a matter of flabour. 21:04:09 or flavour. 21:07:00 What differences are we talking about? The variant Forths that crop up again and again (weekend, hobby, and colorForths included) are at best unneccessary variations on Forth; they don't solve new problems. Rebuilding tools over and over is a great way to make yourself feel that you're doing something worthwhile, when you're actually not. 21:07:52 i'm not talking forth-vs-forth, i'm talking generally, in terms of paradigms. 21:08:03 smalltalk-prolog-c-lisp-forth for example. 21:08:46 And different languages are designed to solve different problems. But if someone comes to Forth and, instead of writing in it, starts building some trivial variation on it, he's certainly avoiding the 'where to next' question. 21:09:23 i agree 100% 21:11:02 Forth is a marvellous general-purpose programming language that can be extended as a language toward any given problem domain. That's where the exploration should occur; extend it to fit a given problem domain, and if you're feeling generous, share that solution. Don't build another damned silly implementation because you like one set of names better than another! 21:11:50 agreed 21:12:56 I'm hoping my book will help teach Forth as a language, rather than as a design for a simple compiler. 21:14:02 yeah, as i said the elegance and methodology behind underpinning forth are intriguing. 21:14:49 A great many Forth books start by talking about how the compiler is implemented. 21:18:05 yes, i've come across that. 21:27:24 --- quit: nighty_ ("Leaving") 21:27:56 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 21:32:26 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.251.237) joined #forth 21:36:15 --- part: azekeprofit left #forth 21:42:53 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-69-154-191-166.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:46:31 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa (Client Quit) 22:15:56 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E0646A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 22:34:23 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:37:45 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 22:44:14 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 22:45:29 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 22:50:04 --- quit: zpg ("ciao") 23:24:14 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 23:38:13 --- join: azekeprofit (n=azekePro@82.200.250.144) joined #forth 23:39:06 can I get netstat to tell me what process is listening on a particular port? 23:39:20 oops 23:39:40 I mean in freebsd 23:43:09 fstat I think 23:43:11 is what you wan 23:43:12 t 23:45:43 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.10.28