00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.10.16 00:20:38 --- join: crest_ (n=crest@p54895B37.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 00:31:02 --- quit: Crest (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:43:36 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:56:58 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 00:57:23 hello 01:01:05 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 01:24:17 --- join: tgkuo3 (n=tgkuo3@125-233-2-170.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 01:26:35 --- part: tgkuo3 left #forth 02:16:29 --- nick: crest_ -> Crest 02:17:39 --- join: arke (n=Chris@pD9E049C4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:17:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 03:22:08 * Crest is away: … 03:28:50 hi 03:29:03 anybody familiar with forth on a 68k? any considerations? 03:29:59 --- join: Bushmills (n=l@wpc3131.amenworld.com) joined #forth 03:30:14 im considering writing a retro-like dialect for my TI-89 03:31:12 Gotta see what the TI OS restricts me to 03:58:23 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 04:08:06 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-514d7620.l2.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 04:08:22 afternoon. 04:08:33 hi# 05:23:35 --- join: tgkuo3 (n=tgkuo3@125-233-2-170.dynamic.hinet.net) joined #forth 05:26:40 --- part: tgkuo3 left #forth 05:48:01 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 05:59:26 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 06:11:10 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:12:00 Good morning, world. 06:30:00 hi 06:30:10 The 68000 seems like a forth dream machine 06:30:10 hi arke :) 06:30:16 Morning, Ray_world! 06:30:41 8 data registers, 8 address registers, single-instruction primitives for treating any address register like a stack 06:34:57 hi vatic. whats the haps? 06:35:28 it's chilly, willy! gotta go get bubble-wrap! 06:36:52 biab... 06:37:15 okay. 06:41:23 68000 a good forth chip. discuss. 07:15:14 is the 68000 a chip with a good forth? 07:15:29 what's good? 07:30:00 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-176-145.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:40:00 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:53:46 --- join: zpg` (n=user@user-54452762.lns4-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 07:55:44 i meant, the 68000 is a good chip for forth 07:56:38 whats a good chip for dip? 07:57:10 freetos scoop. 07:57:24 >_< 07:57:26 :) 08:03:27 --- quit: zpg (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:13:25 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 08:25:13 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:25:40 --- quit: I440r (Nick collision from services.) 08:25:44 --- nick: I440r_ -> I440r 08:25:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 08:26:35 --- join: I440r__ (n=mark4@65.244.197.34) joined #forth 08:26:48 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 08:51:24 --- join: arke (n=Chris@pD9E049C4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:51:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 09:28:14 the 68k is a great Forth chip, yes. 09:28:22 --- nick: vatic -> vatic_away 09:29:17 that's what the Palm is based on (originally -- now emulated under ARM). 09:29:49 when are they going to go native ? 09:29:52 or arent they 09:30:35 That's upcoming, though the emulation will also be there. 09:31:43 cool so ppl will be able to write arm assembler for palm ? 09:31:54 THATS when i start looking at developing for palm :) 09:33:08 you can write arm assembler for the palm now, there's an arm assembler provided with quartus forth. 09:33:50 I440r: you can develop right now with Quartus Forth! 09:34:46 :) 09:34:47 i know. but not in arm asm 09:35:52 I440r: by the time you can do that "natively" on a Palm, you'll also have Kinux to contend with... 09:35:58 Um... Read what I just wrote :) 09:36:02 Linux... 09:36:04 hey guys, on fort a short while. 09:36:45 i'm wondering whether it's possible to convert " :noname dup ; " to a format where one can say " x is: dup ; ", perhaps calling the first " :noname ... " and setting x to the correct vector such that x @ execute will run the word. 09:36:49 kinux ? 09:36:51 oh 09:37:18 zpg theres alias but i dont know if its standard 09:37:31 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 09:37:32 zpg, defer is your friend. Defer x ' dup is x 09:37:33 ' dup alias dupp 09:37:33 ok, that rings a bell but i haven't tried it yet. 09:38:18 dup is an example. i really want to be able to write anything that can be the form " : x swap over dup do etc. ; " as " x is: swap over do etc. ; ", perhaps excluding the final ; 09:38:20 alias is not standard. Defer isn't, but it's more common and somewhat more useful; it's in the forth200x proposal. 09:38:33 this is a test to have an interactive system where i can say to someone, 'extend it in this fashion' 09:38:57 quartus people abuse defer as a means of creating a forward reference :) 09:39:14 even me :/ 09:39:17 slap! lol 09:39:22 heh 09:39:34 would defer or alias cover satisfy my example syntax" 09:39:38 s/cover// 09:39:40 hahaha 09:39:44 zpg, why? 09:39:44 I was just told: 09:39:48 "The one bad thing about programming the 68000 that ruins it for everyone . . ." 09:39:57 "Once you get used to the processor architecture, everything else sucks ass in comparison." 09:40:06 "It totally ruins you for life. :)" 09:40:10 :) 09:40:27 only when you compare it with intel 09:40:34 Quartus_: it's a test, but it'd be neat to create an interactive conversation where one could query the system using noun verb syntax (i.e., standard forth) but also extend it using a semi-common notation. no worries if not, i can just use the :, but it'd be nice to be able to try this out. 09:40:35 i think ARM is messed up in some ways too 09:40:43 arke, that's a peculiar view. The 68k is nice, though. Very regular and flexible. 09:40:46 sometimes arm is xxx src, dst and other times its xxx dst, src 09:40:53 why dont you like the 68k, I440r? 09:40:55 that messes with my brain 09:40:59 i DO like the 68k 09:41:05 but its OLD lol 09:41:09 heh 09:41:11 so? :) 09:41:16 and palms dont run on it any more 09:41:46 could i perhaps have is: parse to end of line, prefix a s" :noname" and suffix a s" ;" ? then call evaluate? 09:41:47 zpg, it's a trivial syntactic difference between 'x is: 3 5 +' and ': x 3 5 +' 09:41:57 i loved coding for my amiga but arm is WAY better lol 09:42:00 Quartus_: i know. but as i say, this is an experiment. 09:42:06 palms still run 68k code. 09:42:11 an interface experiment at that. 09:42:14 not nativly 09:42:53 zpg, you'd be restricting all your defs to one-line, and you'd have to predeclare the names so the actions can be assigned. That's no step forward. 09:43:22 true, hadn't considered the end of line problem. okay, so let's retain ; 09:43:30 x is: weifj wjioe fwef jwoief jwoeif j ; 09:43:54 Still, x has to be predeclared. 09:44:01 yes, that's not a worry right now. 09:45:40 would there be a better way to do this, or is this the best option? in lisp, one might do (setq x (lambda (arg1) (+ arg1 5))), then (funcall x 4), which would pass 4 to the function listed in x, and add 5 to it, returning 9 as the result. 09:46:33 zpg why would you use is: (is that your word?). i think it would be better to code : (x) lots of forth code here ; then do defer x ' (x) is x 09:46:59 because later you can do ' (x2) is x 09:47:01 anyboidy here familiar with ti89 flash coding? 09:47:32 if you do it your way and you revector your deferred word you dont have any easy way to revert back to the original definition 09:48:21 yes, i'm familiar with using vectors though not defer. 09:48:28 i'm thinking of an interactive system where on can type at the prompt 09:48:38 > move x 09:48:43 error: move not recognised 09:48:56 > move is: [code here] ; 09:48:58 > move x 09:49:02 (x gets moved) 09:49:27 you want to switch to an all-foward-parsing forth? 09:49:28 however this works in the background is irrelevant, that's just the syntax i want to work smoothly. 09:49:37 Quartus_: not necessarily, just for is: in this interaction. 09:49:42 > x move 09:49:43 would be fine too 09:49:53 move x is forward-parsing. 09:50:11 yes i know, the example was a little ill-typed. i went into IF mode. 09:50:12 :) 09:50:15 your is: is backward-parsing. 09:50:56 in a sense, though it's normal english too. 09:51:06 "titanic is a terrible movie" 09:51:24 "move is: over dup... ;" 09:52:09 it's semantically identical to : move ... ;'. Why do you want the syntaxctic sugar? 09:52:56 as i said, an experiment, and i believe the person this example is for might be more familiar with this sytax. as i said, it's not necessary, but i thought it would another 'interesting thing to try implementing' and so stuck with the idea. 09:53:30 one last question ==> when one types ": " am i correct in thinking it parses from the input buffer until it finds a ";"? 09:53:30 There are clumsy ways to build an is: as you describe it. 09:53:38 no clean ones come to mind. 09:53:57 okay, that's good to know. as long as i'm not missing something fundamental, i can prototype it later. 09:54:06 no. : simply parses the name, and sets the intepreter loop to compilation state. 09:54:21 okay, and how about :noname, it just does the latter? 09:54:44 Right, but it affects the action of ; also. 09:54:50 okay. 09:55:21 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 09:55:35 you can probably tell what i was thinking -- instead of evaluating a string, could one tell :noname to take a string as the input buffer and compile the contents from there, rather than prefixing ": noname" and then evaluating. 09:55:46 evidently not. 09:56:19 if there's really a living person who would understand move is: but who would cry over : move ... 45 seconds explanation should solve it. 09:57:03 i agree, and it's not a concern of mine ( : versus is: ) 09:57:21 but surely you can appreciate, it's an interesting test. if anything, i'll probably end up understanding more about how forth deals with :noname and : 09:57:48 you could do that. : my-noname: 2>r. :noname 2r> evaluate postpone ; ; 09:58:45 zpg, I'd hate to see you careen off and become yet another forth beginner who felt a need to build a variant before he learned the language. 09:58:58 heh, the rest of the programme is nice and standard, fear not. 09:59:02 this is a singleton test. 10:02:08 this has been an interesting conversation ... i'll tinker with your suggestion above, but will probably just spend the 45s explaining the : as you suggest 10:02:21 :) 10:03:37 be back later, i'm late for an appointment ... thanks for the suggestions and help (i should really set my disconnection notice to that!) guys. cheerio. 10:04:46 ciao! 10:36:24 I wish it was chow. I'm hungry. :) 10:40:49 Purina People Chow. Look! It makes it's own gravy. 10:45:44 --- nick: vatic_away -> vatic 11:05:45 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 12:09:09 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 12:09:49 hi 12:15:35 hey 12:30:24 --- join: jcw (n=jcw@adsl-074-238-180-251.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 12:31:07 What's the URL to Quartus' DPANS doc, please? 12:31:30 in the topic 12:31:40 No, it's not. 12:31:42 That's on Taygeta. 12:31:48 And Taygeta is not responding. 12:32:17 sorry I didn't know Quartus had his own copy 12:33:24 There we go. Had to ssh to home, then to another machine to find the bookmark. quartus.net/dpans 12:33:39 I thought it was DPANS in uppercase. But it is not. 12:33:50 http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?action=search;search_term=ForthStandards 12:34:15 http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?ForthStandards , actually 12:34:56 jcw: if you're looking for the one on Quartus' site: http://www.quartus.net/files/Forth/Docs/ 12:40:44 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 13:02:51 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:20:42 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 13:20:45 hi 13:28:35 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 14:21:04 --- join: arke_ (n=Chris@pD9E04EBD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:24:56 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 14:37:24 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 14:37:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus_ 14:38:42 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:38:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 14:39:17 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:39:22 slava: does/could Factor support SWIG? 14:39:32 slava: hey! 14:39:38 hi 14:39:48 there's no SWIG support yet, but the C library interface is pretty straightforward 14:39:51 you don't have to write any C code 14:40:23 slava: in other words, if someone wanted to use swig, they could set about doing it? 14:40:29 sure 14:40:40 but the need for SWIG is not so clear as it is in other languages 14:40:48 in Java or Python for instance you have to write a shitload of C code to bridge your C library with the runtime 14:41:24 slava: I have a friend who is giving up on ruby as a embedded script language. I suggested he look at Factor. 14:41:35 factor can't be embedded in C programs at this time 14:41:56 oh, OK... 14:42:49 slava: http://gridflow.ca/latest/doc/index.html 14:42:53 its not a fundamental limitation 14:42:59 just something we haven't looked into at this point 14:43:29 also factor cannot use native threads 14:43:40 but then neither can ruby, so i guess this guy doesn't care 14:43:55 slava: he's spent the last three years waiting for the ruby developers to fix bugs in their garbage collection and finally he's throwing in the towel... 14:44:03 looking for something else. 14:46:46 slava: sorry to run. take care! 14:47:32 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 14:50:01 evening all. 14:50:05 --- nick: zpg` -> zpg 14:50:07 Hey. 14:50:13 hey Quartus 14:52:11 http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/ci_4486527 14:52:22 howdy Quartus 14:52:29 Hey Luddo. 14:52:51 i'm worried the 'ANN: Forth Blog" thread is going to turn into another Forth -vs- Python/Ruby/PHP discussion 14:53:02 i should not have mentioned that I'm working on a web framework :) 14:53:23 heh. Well, Doty will find anything reason to spout off. 14:53:55 is this a common pattern? Guy implements own forth, becomes disillusioned? 14:56:26 did doty do his own forth? 14:56:34 Guy implements his own almost-Forth based on his craptastic understanding of the thing after studying it for a week, falls in love with himself, never shuts the hell up. 14:56:50 He modified somebody else's variant. 14:57:01 oh. 14:57:28 people who implement their own language, without realizing it sucks as much as every other language but in different ways, tend to be annoying. 14:57:37 i think this: "The advantage to languages such as PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl, and so on is that have support for building web applications (mostly in terms of libraries). So, development can be very fast and intuitive." is on par. people are just griping over libraries, and moaning over not having code written for them to use, out of the box. 14:57:40 It helps if they're annoying to start with. 14:58:01 though it's not necessarily true. i saw paysan's article on writing a gforth webserver in a few hours. neat. 14:58:12 zpg: yeah but if you look carefully, there's a whole bunch of people moaning, and a small handful who stay quiet and actually write the code 14:58:22 slava: i agree. that's usenet for you i guess. 14:58:46 java didn't get a whole bunch of libraries because people were moaning on usenet 14:58:59 it was mostly due to money and marketing, and the fact that a ton of people actually wrote code 14:58:59 Quartus: i scrapped the "is:" idea i think. instead, i'll just write three generations of the same programme, the 2nd including the first, the third the second (and hence the first). the newer definitions will reside in each higher abstraction. 15:00:21 hi all 15:00:21 slava: yes; equally, python and perl were adopted and hence contributions came from more sources. i guess forth is still more 'in the background'. it's not that things can't be done, just that they aren't always bundled with free software out of the box. the gtk example shows a lot, in terms of a cross-platform GUI forth and foreign function calls. 15:01:06 my current thoughts are: forth + ffi = a hell of a lot of choice. 15:01:20 forth + available forth extensions = pretty impressive choice. 15:01:32 and ffi can be abstracted and re-written in forth if a project merits it. 15:01:47 lest we forget how much perl and python wrap C 15:02:09 i'm trying not to wrap too much C in factor. C code tends to use the wrong idioms, such as long argument lists 15:02:19 true. 15:02:36 my intention, if i get to it, is to wrap these long foreign functions in more friendly interfaces. 15:02:51 i think it's imminently doable. 15:04:59 --- part: crc left #forth 15:05:06 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:05:29 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth 15:05:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:27:32 --- quit: jcw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:34:51 Hey. 15:35:04 I miss anything exciting? 15:41:53 just my 2 line ramble 15:42:13 you're a 2-line rambler, and a 2-line gambler, and I guess you always will. 15:43:24 ...be. 15:43:41 There's no 'be' in the song. 15:45:22 there is in my 15:45:26 two-line version. 15:46:10 Then you're clearly not the Marshall Tucker Band. 15:48:11 heh 15:49:03 Lots of blather on the newsgroup about the +LOOP being incomprehensible. Have you had trouble with it, zpg? 15:53:53 no i wrote quite a nice word using it recently. in the list code if i recall correctly. 15:54:24 How about with a negative increment? 15:56:27 that's how i used it. i don't get what's complex. 15:56:38 20 10 do ... -2 +loop 15:56:38 Nor do I. 15:56:42 I thought I'd ask a beginner. 15:57:08 sure, no worries. but it's not one of the tjomgs tjat threw me. 15:57:34 : foo 5 0 do i . loop ; foo -> 0 1 2 3 4 15:57:59 : foo 0 5 do i . -1 +loop ; foo -> 5 4 3 2 1 0 15:58:15 There's an assymmetry, but it's not complex. 15:59:01 yeah, mistyped my example, but surely this is reconciled in a simple interaction 15:59:12 the beauty of interactive programming. 15:59:22 Yes, I thought it was much ado about nothing. 15:59:40 which post? 15:59:51 Another discussion is whether TO should parse, or whether the targets of TO should respond to a flag. I wonder if these people ever actually write code? 16:00:41 what sort of person is asking? experienced programmer or "i'd use forth, but i don't like the colour of the letter T"? 16:00:56 It's a whole thread called 'counted loops'. 16:01:11 All the windbags are sounding off. :) 16:01:17 oh in the 'easier to learn' 16:01:44 i don't know why people don't just play with the system for more than 10 minutes before criticising. i played, i didn't get it, went away. 16:01:49 but didn't criticise before looking at it again 16:02:12 there's my open: I haven't sounded off, yet. :) Hi Guys 16:02:22 hi ray 16:02:39 I don't know. I think: Doty has a limited-functionality Forth-ish system, and so he must convince the world that simpler systems are better, hence conferring 'better' status on his efforts. 16:02:51 Quartus: do you find graffiti slower than typing btw? 16:03:06 zpg, I type over a hundred wpm, so yes. 16:03:10 yes. his signature surprised me. seems to imply a pretty sound guy. 16:03:13 Quartus: ah ok. 16:03:33 You mean noqsi aerospace? It's just one guy, him. 16:03:49 oh 16:03:51 heh 16:04:00 I could as easily claim I'm Quartus Aerospace. 16:04:31 has a ring to it ;) 16:05:07 Or Quartus Physics Laboratories, or Quartus Researchological Institutificationists. 16:05:41 Hi ray 16:06:04 zpg, with graffiti I consider longer before I write. It helps. :) 16:06:12 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 16:06:57 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 16:07:08 Quartus Aerospace haha 16:07:21 hello 16:07:27 :) hey 16:07:34 vandelay industries, the world leader in latex 16:07:40 yes, pre-writing time is neat. 16:10:00 --- part: Bushmills left #forth 16:10:56 well I was going to go shopping for groceries but my mom's diabetes was acting up 16:11:27 she didn't feel up to driving 16:12:15 Werty Pharmaceuticals, for when you're really, really, really bug-fuck insane. 16:12:50 haha 16:13:07 I get mine from Lily 16:13:21 Lily's like water to werty. 16:13:25 and pfizer 16:13:39 "werty pharmaceuticals: we refill prescriptions that nobody else will" 16:13:46 heh 16:15:04 what if this NewForth OpSys is for real 16:15:04 why not qwerty 16:15:17 werty is a prolific poster on comp.lang.forth and the usenet at large 16:15:43 slava, right. I'll keep a lookout for the Easter Bunny, too, 'cause you never know. 16:15:45 my isp doesn't have nntp server, I have to use Google groups I guess 16:16:22 Quartus: santa will give you a newforth opsys pda for christmas 16:16:35 actually werty probably celebrates festivus 16:17:08 Werty's programming efforts equate to the Unabomber's manifesto, as far as I'm concerned; an insane rant is an insane rant, no matter what language it's crayoned in. 16:17:10 NewForth OpSys? is this sarcasm or is someone chewing the fat about it on usenet? 16:17:47 I may be insane but I have fun doing it :) 16:17:50 It's what the ever-charming werty keeps raving on about incoherently, zpg. 16:18:09 not just usenet, Quartus_ 16:18:10 oh. as i said, i tend to home in on the more sane looking posts. 16:18:12 when he's not spewing racism, sexism, and other forms of outstanding stupidity. 16:18:14 http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?p=974039&sid=dc22bb11eb85d3873ffa4a9153a0e582 16:18:56 heh 16:18:58 http://www.pdastreet.com/forums//archive/index.php/t-62302.html 16:19:05 he's been at it for at least a year 16:19:15 Quartus: btw, do you know of a hack to duplicate memos on-palm? 16:19:16 yup, there he is, rining the welkin with his blither. 16:19:50 zpg... hmm. There's a hackmaster module to expand the clipboard buffer. Then you could cut & paste. 16:19:55 have there been anything except announcements? 16:19:58 Quartus: ah ok. 16:20:13 from werty? not even announcements, just insults and insanity. 16:20:16 http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/307a16fe380305d9?hl=en& 16:20:44 looks like he was begging for a gift of hardware 16:20:56 this quote summarizes all the werty you need to know: 16:20:59 " Ned Lude , Burned the weaving looms in Burm' and figured he could "improve" his job ! C+ programmers ..... " 16:21:17 Ned Lewd? Different guy, I think. :) 16:25:35 You can apparently, by werty's claim, write the "NewForth OpSys" in 2 days, with time for tea breaks. It's been two hundred days since he's been ranting about it, so there must be at least a few versions of it available by now, 16:26:02 nice to hear :) 16:26:04 there are, and its called "LSE64" 16:26:10 heh 16:26:21 --- join: jc (n=jcw@adsl-065-006-151-062.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 16:30:19 naw, werty's also condemed LSE64, I think. 16:31:41 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 16:34:02 ray -- how's the chess programme coming along? 16:37:37 I haven't touched RxChess since before I went on vacation. I fixed up ( prettied up) one of my colorforth chesses, getting it ready for web. I've been working on my Glypher disertation, last few weeks. It's going slow as I don't have all of the informations. 16:38:42 dissertation? are you a student? 16:38:48 and is there a link to this colour forth chess? 16:38:57 he's a disserter. 16:39:22 heh 16:39:40 ahh cliphack works nicely. my main forth memo is now about 6 lines long. the rest is included. 16:40:18 keen. 16:40:31 commander. 16:41:09 There may be... they are not linked to any sites just yet... but I think I have some htmlized code on crc's server. 16:41:21 * Raystm2 checking. 16:42:15 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-128-168.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:43:05 what do you have to do, copy it down from the screen with pencil-crayons and then type it in again into an html document? 16:43:13 heh 16:43:16 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 16:43:50 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 16:45:04 --- quit: slava () 16:49:17 okay zpg, still there, and more importantly, you can't still be interested in a couple colorforth chesses? 16:49:58 I'm serious, actually. Is there some automated path to taking saved cf sources and publishing them? 16:50:26 Raystm2: pardon? i'm still here, and still intrigued if that's what you're asking 16:51:05 okay. http://ray.rx-core.org/old_site/Raywincfblocks.htm 16:52:01 best if you scroll to the bottom and then go up a few blocks. there will be there different versions of chess( well 5 really, or is it six? when used in combination). 16:52:25 the rest is the state of my windows colorforth sometime last year. 16:53:22 interesting. code looks pretty indecipherable. 16:53:30 oh, there's chess. 16:54:02 can you capture the game of chess in play? 16:54:08 i.e., the screen as chess is being played? 16:55:01 block 182 is a chess, blocks 174-182 is another and 168-172 is another. 16:55:15 yes, several ways. 16:55:16 k, brb, just making tea. 16:55:22 cool. 16:55:30 Raystm2: okay then, could we/i take a look at chess being played in CFth? 16:55:47 If you wish. I have no other plans. 16:57:56 cool, I think this has the earliest version of ChuckBot as well. 16:59:27 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 17:03:41 back with tea. 17:09:29 cool. 17:09:46 was just looking over the old code there. 17:10:02 I've made changes but it's basically the same as it appears. 17:10:14 It appears huge and unreadable. 17:10:26 the first one to consider is block 182. 17:10:39 yes Quartus. I have to agree. The state of that is horrible. 17:10:54 It was never intended to be shared as is, but there ya go. 17:11:39 ray, not knocking your efforts; for all I know it's a prime example of colorForth clarity. 17:11:54 You know it occurs to me, there is a lot of unshared code here from me, but also Tim Neitz, Mark Slicker, and some stuff that John hasn't explained yet. 17:12:07 It very well may be. 17:13:34 But on block 182, there is the colorforth chess os. If you strip everything out of colorforth that you don't need to edit this block, then you most likely have the smallest chess in it's own os, that anybody has developed. 17:13:48 but does it have AI :)? 17:14:02 182 is a standalone chess, but can be used to document other chessgames using the code on block 21. 17:14:37 zpg, none of my chesses have ai yet, they don't even communicate with each other yet, but as I learn those things, I shall add them. 17:14:59 yes, i was just kidding. 17:15:08 so, reckon we could see these blocks in action? 17:15:28 sure, do you have windows colorforth yet? 17:15:39 OR any running colorforth? 17:15:41 i use mac, so no 17:15:44 i have one through qemu 17:15:54 but if you have it running on win32, a screenshot would be fine. 17:16:40 then you can code these few blocks into yours by hand, I suppose, unless you know how to transfer a file to a disk and then from the disk to the running colorforth and then back to the colorforth save disk. 17:17:14 oh wait, you wouldn't need a disk in qemu I suppose. 17:17:54 182 is the screenshot for that particular chess. 17:17:55 I think he just wants to know what it looks like when it's running. 17:18:17 okay, I have seen those pics around here somewhere... 17:18:26 cool. 17:18:33 hand-coding isn't too appealing. 17:23:03 You don't need the practice. :) 17:23:31 * Raystm2 doing a global pix search. 17:28:53 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 17:30:06 Raystm2: have you started on your irc channel chess game? 17:32:06 hello 17:32:47 Hi snowrichard. 17:33:28 hi erider. No I haven't added any irc stuff to any of the chess games yet. I still don't know how to do that stuff, but I'm planning to learn it. 17:34:46 listening to my local FM station on the net. 98rocks.fm 17:34:47 I had posted several screenshots with futhin's old site, but I can't seem to locate the local copies. 17:35:08 Shame, because I have a nice shot of a cool board with all custom pieces. 17:35:42 I bet I have them zipped somewhere. Not giving in just yet. 17:37:53 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 17:40:24 cool, thanks for looking. 17:41:02 --- quit: jc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:41:28 found it! 17:41:33 Got my Vx today. I need the drivers for a G300 keyboard. 17:42:04 posting to my site, please enjoy tea. 17:42:05 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:42:09 congrats k4jcw 17:42:41 Raystm2: yay 17:44:45 okay, how do I make it a smaller download, cus this thing is taking forever to upload, and you know that can't be good. Checking file size. 17:45:21 24898kb I think. 17:45:38 this is a screenshot right? 17:45:41 .jpg file. Should I have saved in a different format? 17:45:43 yes. 17:45:55 24 mb? 17:45:59 It's a screen shot I did a few years ago. 17:46:02 that's more like bitmap size 17:46:03 ya. 17:46:04 a 24 megabyte jpg? 17:46:21 it's labeled .jpg but could be a bitmap. 17:46:45 rename and see 17:46:54 * Raystm2 googles looking for a way to make it smaller. 17:47:11 rename and see if it opens as a .bmp? 17:48:04 hehe it's 1600 x 1200 17:48:19 i should have done the screen shot at a much smaller resolution. 17:48:34 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 17:49:51 jpg should still be small 17:49:55 a few mbs 17:52:27 anyway, if you care to try to get it it's: www.colorforth.info/old_site/c4thches2-2.jpg 17:53:20 Raystm2: have you started on your irc channel chess game? 17:55:27 All of my chessgames are considered in the starting phase. As I learn to do new things, I'll add them to chesses. Chess won't be complete till it can surf the web and autoplays games that it finds, does email, plays in irc, has a bad ass ai, and an opening/closing book that is web searchable and completely upgradeable. :) goal! 17:56:49 I promise only to steal from the most treasured resources I have in reach. 17:58:58 well it can be just one on one play would be cool no? 18:01:06 oh, neat shot. 18:02:39 Thanks. Ya I think you are right erider, chess should be played between opponants. 18:03:09 that board is all icons. 18:03:33 cool 18:03:35 the blacks are spaces and the red are icon 95 which is completely filled. 18:03:51 you can use crc socket library 18:04:19 I see your screenshot 18:04:35 you are a python guy too :) 18:04:54 the peices are drawn in the icons editor, and they number 16 because they have to visually give a clue as to which one it is to move it. 18:05:41 * k4jcw imagines erider saying that like "you are a child abuser too :)" 18:05:43 Raystm2: are you a chess player then? 18:05:46 for the pawns you hit g for green or w for white and then the file letter. the board shows the moves of we and ge. 18:06:11 moves are constructed like thus: we 2 u 18:06:37 or white e-file pawn 2 up. 18:06:47 * erider says "VA!" 18:07:10 this means that you have to distinguish between queenside and kingside peices when you call them. 18:07:22 wkb for white king bishop... 18:08:25 zpg, you know, not really. I'm not that good of a player. 18:08:39 I'm mildly interested in the real action of the game. 18:08:42 heh 18:09:11 It's more that I found a problem that I think I can get my head around, and as a hobbyiest, I only have myself to satisfy, or blame. 18:10:48 It's a "something to do" for the rest of my life, that is mildly productive, in some small way. Get to be known as that guy that's always coding chess, and maybe some people will contribute neat solutions. I can only hope, cuz I won't be able to do it alone, i'm certain. 18:12:06 the AI side interests me. 18:12:24 as does board representation. there was a good section in Bentley's Pearl's about Thompson's design decision and mirroring of the board in memory. 18:13:17 Yes, me as well. In fact, just thinking here, but colorforth, and the application of chess, has a lot to teach anybody from the machine on up to designing something worthwhile and well seasoned. 18:13:32 chess ai? that's nothing more than a bunch of lookups, probably the realisation is the only interesting thing about it. 18:13:52 Cool, thanks virl, that's good to know. 18:14:01 or are there any aspects which I haven't seen 18:14:04 ? 18:14:08 sorting, looking-up, weighing, 18:14:20 several kinds of sorting if I remember correctly. 18:14:48 as I said the realisation :-) 18:14:50 There is the depth to consider. 18:15:13 the problem is to make it do it fast 18:15:17 there is a trade-off somewhere between depth and machine performance. 18:15:19 chess ai is substantially more than 'a bunch of lookups'. 18:16:26 well, when you have a big database of moves and considering everytime when the human player did a move the defense or attack relating on this database then it's mostly a bunch of lookups. 18:16:53 The opening game involves lookups. That's it. 18:17:33 or when you go the old non try and error approach of ai then it's interesting, because it hasn't showed yet any useable things. 18:18:34 also the end of the game involves lookups 18:18:55 and with a big probability most of the inbetwen in the game also. 18:19:04 really, what ever a human white player does could in effect a selection down that path of memory that contains all of the board positions reachable from that current position. Now that would have to stop at a particular depth, even maybe have to not check every single path, and look for some form of position advantage that might lead to a win. 18:20:23 Quartus_: do you recall the Bentley passage? (i notice you've read PPearls) 18:20:28 the number of possible board-positions exceeds the number of particles in the universe. 18:20:41 which passage? 18:21:29 til someone counts every particle I don't believe this. 18:21:42 I believe it. 18:21:57 ignorance is not a valid argument. 18:22:31 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 18:22:34 it's a factorial that includes such things as every possible combination of piece and position that is legal. 18:22:49 it's really, really big. 18:22:54 you call that ignorance, Quartus_ how many times did you take drugs? 18:23:56 being pragmatic isn't ignorance 18:24:08 being ignorant is. 18:24:17 ok, it's there and it could be possible. 18:24:23 it can be cured through education, though. 18:25:27 Quartus_: on Thompson's splitting of the board into 8 mirrored sections. 18:26:23 zpg, I don't recall that. 18:26:45 it's in the book. interesting stuff. 18:26:56 I'll have a look. 18:28:59 i don't have it here, but hopefully memory serves correctly. 18:29:02 "known universe" or "estimated number of particles" would be a falsifiable statement. 18:34:00 I can't figure out what the button on the GPS cradle does :( 18:34:18 probably powers it off and on. 18:34:26 You'd think there would be some indication. 18:34:32 The manual does not appear to say. 18:34:43 reset? 18:34:54 maybe it's a mechanical release for the sled. 18:35:00 temporary break, mostlikely reset. 18:35:11 No, that's on the back. 18:36:25 check http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/Palm/gpscomp.htm 18:36:31 I thought it might set a waypoint at the current location, but it doesn't seem to indicate that. 18:37:45 I'm not an ignorant you fool. 18:38:07 everybody's ignorant of something. 18:38:17 I am. 18:38:23 "There is no indication whether the unit is currently on or off." Nice. 18:38:30 and it's 'FOOL!!!' 18:38:30 The button does power it on, but see above. 18:38:58 I'm a fool as well. 18:38:59 You don't happen to have drivers for an Accufeel 300 thumb keyboard, do you? 18:39:00 k4, sounds like it doesn't matter. It's auto-on when the software queries it, auto-off after 2 mins. 18:39:14 k4, never had one of those. 18:39:21 Seems Darfons website doesn't have ones that old, and the accufeel website is showing an apache "hello, world" page. 18:39:45 Maybe the wayback machine? 18:39:51 hmm, there's an idea. 18:46:04 Supposedly Acer is now Benq, who says they'll support old products, but I can't find any drivers. 18:46:24 have you checked palmgear and handango? 18:47:56 Whoa... Google is giving server errors. Don't see that often. 18:47:57 No. 18:55:28 Hah. Turns out Targus picked up the thumbpad, and has a driver in their archives. 18:55:42 good deal! 18:57:13 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 18:57:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 18:59:41 The Palm folding keyboard is a serious piece of work. Very nice enginerring. 18:59:59 the wired one? Yes, it's sweet. 19:00:27 I played with the early prototype on a visit to Silicon Valley back when. 19:00:28 The way the little stand folds out and the sections of the keypad slide together.... Very German. 19:04:58 the palm is out of juice. 19:05:05 *snicker* 19:05:14 *weep* 19:05:19 I like the keyboard. 19:05:26 clever. 19:05:44 interesting bit of factoring -- i had a complex set of nested loops, so adopted a simple table structure instead (flat array, special fetch and store instructions added) 19:05:50 works really cleanly in a fraction of the code. 19:06:16 that's great. well done. 19:06:25 fun isn't it. :) 19:07:03 very. 19:08:12 i had a conversation about turing machines and cognitive modelling last week. this small app, implemented on the palm, is to illustrate the simplicity of implementation for one of the examples; it does very little, but i've got a little grid showing progress and a few verb commands to the main character. 19:09:04 forth is one of the purest languages i've seen, and comes v. close to the spec. this author adopted re: turing machine. i plan to roughly outline how this code is built on a very open model, then demonstrate. 19:09:06 more tea, back in a sec. 19:09:20 fueled by tea :) 19:10:04 hell, i'd lose my citizenship if i wasn't! 19:11:30 "by her majesty's decree, if one of her subjects does not consume more than 3 cups of tea per day their stature of a subject of the realm shall be in rather inconvenient standing, resembling that of a digestive biscuit." 19:11:47 or something like that. 19:12:34 hey, I've been to London. Many Britons already resemble digestive biscuits. :) 19:16:12 Nice. It appears that Magellan has an updated Nav Companion... but the zip file is corrupt. 19:16:37 ftp search for a copy. 19:17:15 ? 19:18:06 look for a non-corrupt version. 19:19:58 Other than googling for "nav_companion.zip"? 19:20:11 google ftp search 19:20:23 I've never tried that. 19:23:34 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 19:48:08 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 20:01:09 manage to find it? 20:02:35 heh re: digestives 20:02:57 I think that's too much tea, not too little :) 20:03:20 so it goes. 20:10:07 damn these fatal exceptions! 20:10:33 what are you doing to cause them? 20:10:40 lots of cell+ ing 20:10:43 not sure where the error lies 20:11:03 factor, test each factor. Inline tests are also good. 20:11:19 indeed. i had tested, and thought it worked. 20:11:36 indeed, sometimes running doesn't cause an error. so i'm thinking i'm overrunning my allocated boundaries 20:11:39 but sometimes this is OK 20:12:24 allocate, the quartus forth version that returns 16-bit addresses, can fail. Are you testing the ior, or just discarding it? 20:12:39 i'm using ALLOT at the moment 20:12:57 : myword create 4 cells allot ; <--- is this flakey? looks like it could be the source of problems. 20:13:00 ok. That won't fail unless you eat up more than 32K or so. 20:13:13 no, that code is fine. 20:13:15 ok. 20:15:59 found on error through testing ... let's see the code when the drawing pin has done its job 20:16:10 *an error 20:18:15 this is very odd. 20:21:20 hmm, the address of the word created by the "myword" definition above seems to start off with a negative address when i fetch. 20:21:42 what do you mean, when you fetch? 20:21:50 okay, so myword ahaha 20:21:51 ahaha @ .s 20:22:17 alloted memory is not automatically zeroed. 20:22:26 oh damn 20:22:28 i know the problem now 20:22:56 you need a 0allot. 20:22:59 i was using variables before 20:23:05 no, the initialisation isn't an issue 20:23:08 some of my definitions begin 20:23:09 @ 20:23:13 ah, I see. 20:25:44 hoorah 20:27:29 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:36:13 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-41-121.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:05:18 hmm, a curious error. 21:07:49 amplify. 21:08:38 i was editing a memo and i got a fatal error a couple of times. 21:08:45 will let you know what it was if it occurs again 21:09:53 does your source let the include complete, or are you stopping perhaps for input during the include? 21:10:29 no no, the editing in memopad itself. 21:10:44 right, I'm asking related questions. 21:12:00 you're going back and forth with switchhack, right? 21:13:16 yes 21:13:18 and apphack 21:13:42 the error occurs while trying to move the cursor, but it seems to have stopped 21:13:46 ok. When you switch, are you mid-include, paused perhaps by KEY or ACCEPT or something? 21:15:32 oh i see. no, i don't think so. can't be sure. 21:16:33 the termination from quartus generates an internal throw, which percolates upward and releases all handle locks -- unless perhaps you're discarding an unhandled catch? 21:16:46 i shouldn't be. 21:17:00 you reckon i've switched before this percolation has occurred? 21:17:43 also possible is that the memopad isn't always releasing its own locks. If that's the case you'll get an error after 17 switch/edits. 21:17:49 sometimes when i write code, i don't think of good word names until later. 21:17:58 >r dupd boo r> frob2 quux 21:18:08 no, you can't. The only way you could interfere is by eating throws. 21:18:11 of course this would never make it into factor's library, its just an experimental hack i'm working on. 21:18:25 Quartus_: *nod* 21:18:39 You are SUCH a luddite slava. Boo. 21:24:40 I use descriptive, possibly hyphenated names initially. Shorten them later. 21:28:22 THINK!!! 21:28:36 but, we are all fools!!! ? 21:32:24 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:35:34 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 21:39:59 the error: "field.c, line:3806, field object overlooked" 21:40:50 overlocked. That's a lock not being released. Now to isolate the culprit -- memopad or quartus, with/without the hacks. 21:41:13 shall do tomorrow, it's ridiculously late here now. 21:41:22 ok. 21:41:28 though i'm not freeing an 80-cell allotted table, so that could be it :) 21:41:42 after N runs, it might get a little pissed with me. 21:41:56 no, you can't free an allot -- only an allocate, and it wouldn't cause this anyway. 21:42:20 ok, cool 21:43:47 Quartus_: the thing is, what the words do is not even finalized yet. 21:43:51 QF manages allots automatically? 21:44:14 allots all come from one allocation that is automatically freed on exit. 21:44:41 neat, ok 21:44:49 time for minimal sleep 21:44:51 night all 21:44:53 slava, with NewForth OpSys, indigent banana carry-on ziplock! 21:44:58 --- quit: zpg ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") 21:44:59 ciao zpg 21:45:18 NewForth OpSys has no dictionary, so you don't have to name your words! LUDDITE!!! 21:45:44 LUDDITE GETS YOUR WHITES WHITER! GENTLE ON ALL FABRICS! 23:45:52 --- quit: slava () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.10.16