00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.10.10 00:14:41 --- quit: slava () 00:16:36 --- quit: segher (Nick collision from services.) 00:16:46 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-159-140.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 00:20:11 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:52:17 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:52:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 01:17:55 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-62-242.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:17:55 --- quit: Raystm2 (Connection reset by peer) 01:48:06 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-34-236.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 01:52:28 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:54:35 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-35-78.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 02:06:52 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:09:56 --- join: arke (n=arke@pD9E07A68.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:21:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o arke 03:08:01 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 04:10:19 --- join: zpg (n=user@user-54434544.lns6-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #forth 04:11:42 good afternoon. 04:20:00 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 04:21:42 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 04:26:08 hi TreyB 05:23:42 --- join: Crest (n=crest@p548971B4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:14:30 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:15:19 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:19:47 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:28:27 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:49:08 --- nick: Raystm2- -> nanstm 07:15:44 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-254-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:30:56 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:38:22 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 07:41:44 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:41:56 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-254-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:50:04 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:57:50 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 08:09:05 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 08:31:50 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 08:33:56 good morning 08:39:10 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@136.160.196.114) joined #forth 09:27:30 good evening 09:36:04 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 09:36:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 10:29:01 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 10:33:22 --- quit: rabbitwhite () 10:34:46 hey all 10:37:45 hi, back. 10:38:04 What's up? 10:38:19 not too much. tinkering with colorForth, herk and fronds. 10:38:38 though i'm waiting for jason so that he can talk me through the latter, which is now running fine here. 10:39:34 also, just won a bid for a palm keyboard. hoorah. 10:39:42 --- join: ramserve1 (n=gschuett@4.38.41.141) joined #forth 10:39:48 wow 10:39:51 hey 10:40:00 so is forth faster than other tools? 10:40:07 is it fun to use it? 10:40:12 is it web friendly? 10:40:32 it's 5 letters long. 10:42:05 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:42:16 ramserve1: i take it you've just happened across Forth then? 10:45:04 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:45:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 10:45:15 oops. Lost traction there. 10:46:22 miss anything? 10:46:57 Checked the log. Those Palm keyboards are handy. 10:47:10 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 10:47:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 10:48:29 Quartus: where's the log at? 10:48:31 JasonWoof: hey. 10:48:49 in the logs directory of my mirc install. :) There's a clog log somewhere, think it's at the tunes site. 10:48:58 tunes clog forth should turn it up 10:49:07 ok 10:49:27 heh. First item that comes up in google. 10:49:35 neat. 10:49:44 2nd for me 10:49:57 hmm. Odd. 10:50:33 indeed. 10:50:49 "ndex of /~nef/logs/forth" 10:51:32 hi zpg :) 10:52:27 JasonWoof: fronds is working here; i scrapped my framework SDLs and just compiled afresh. ./configure && make worked without any problems (fovium, this is) and I copied the 'test' generated vm into the fovium directory, running it with success. 10:52:36 fovium-dir/fovium other-dir/vm doesn't work though. 10:52:45 fovium expects the vm in its directory i guess. 10:54:19 three new c.l.f werties yesterday. 10:54:37 And one in sci.physics that sets a new low water mark. 10:58:38 zpg: no, fovium expects its font to be in the current dir 10:58:47 the image can be wherever 10:59:20 ah ok, that was the problem then. 10:59:27 so, fancy giving me a few points as to usage? 10:59:46 sure 10:59:57 ok, let me fire it up again. 11:00:02 cursor left/right/up/down is option-h/n/c/t 11:01:05 option-r to go to the definition of the word under the cursor 11:01:15 ok 11:01:19 option-g to go back (from any movement I think) 11:01:22 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 11:01:22 i can't see a cursor, which is a little confusing 11:01:34 no, sorry, only from jumps 11:01:40 the cursor is the word in reverse video 11:01:50 ah of course 11:01:51 sorry, with a blue background 11:01:54 so let's start simple 11:02:11 pushing 1, 2 then calling + 11:02:19 ok 11:02:20 since there aren't any blocks, i'm not sure where to begin 11:02:41 press option-space then hold space while you type 1 11:02:45 then let go of the keys 11:03:05 the order of the keyups doesn't matter, as long as you don't let go of all the keys before you press the 1 key 11:03:08 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 11:03:21 oh, nice. this is raskin style 11:03:52 okay, so if we don't have blocks, how do i do a definition like double-dup: dup dup ; 11:04:04 can't enter source right now 11:04:09 except in herkforth 11:04:37 in herkforth you can enter: : double-dup [ def vdup vdup v; 11:04:53 in one of the blocks that compiles stuff into the fovium image 11:04:57 oops, missed a v 11:05:05 : vdouble-dup [ def vdup vdup v; 11:05:16 and then you'll get that def in fronds 11:06:01 oh, you can jump to a given definition. start the quasi-mode with alt-s 11:06:10 then type the name of the word you want to see the def for 11:06:13 and release all the keys 11:06:32 both quasi-modes (search and execute) exit when you release all the keys 11:09:13 nice okay, trying that. 11:09:28 : vdouble-dup [ def vdup vdup v; -- not vdouble-dup: ... ? 11:09:56 oh that lookup's neat. 11:10:54 I'm typing conventional syntax here 11:11:08 herkforth doesn't show the : or [ symbols, it just changes color at those points 11:11:34 in the editor you actually have to hit those keys (":" and "[") after the first word of that color 11:11:48 but in the notation for herkforth, 2dup: dup dup ; is : 2dup dup dup ; 11:11:53 so how do i enter the vdouble-dup ? 11:11:59 a separate colon prefix? 11:12:06 type this: 11:12:20 vdouble-dup:def[vdup vdup v; 11:12:24 (note the space on the end) 11:12:31 * zpg nods 11:12:41 okay, just going to finish making coffee, back shortly. then shall try it. 11:12:46 the : key adds a def named whatever you have on the input line 11:13:00 I'm going to run into town to pick up a sandwitch. back in 30 minutes 11:13:12 btw -- don't you think that the inability to type '1 2 +' or '12+', instead favouring quasi-modes is a little long-winded? 11:13:17 okay, talk in 30 or so. 11:16:10 doing something like "1 2 + ." with the exec quasi-mode seems a bit awkward 11:16:24 I wonder if the awkwardness will go away after using it for a while 11:17:12 and I ponder other methods 11:17:24 archy has a key combo to select the text you just entered. 11:18:00 maybe I could do "1 2 + ." like that. first type "1 2 + ." then select it, then hit something to execute the selection, then if I'm happy with it and don't want to edit or do it again, I just hit delete 11:19:01 being humane (in the raskin sense) does in involve more keystrokes, at least on a standard keyboard 11:19:52 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 11:34:07 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 12:13:33 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 12:17:40 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:19:41 back 12:20:18 JasonWoof: yes, greater usage likely promotes ease of use. but archy/thi also is modeless in the sense that text-entry is the default 'mono-mode'. 12:20:37 modeless doesn't mean all typing is done in one quasi-mode, all movement in another, etc. 12:20:47 i might try defining a new function and using it in a sec. 12:21:04 also, could you remind me how to create a string, i didn't save the instructions from yesterday, and didn't have a chance to try it out. 12:25:41 Clog. 12:32:06 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 12:32:48 hi erider 12:35:17 hi zpg\ 12:35:33 hey 12:35:58 i've discovered a way to get colorforth running through emulation, but unfortunately the modified source is no longer online. 12:38:22 sounds like you're on the road to being just as productive with colorforth as anyone else :) 12:38:30 heh, indeed. 12:39:13 it's the only language I've seen other than INTERCAL where it's hard to write a 'Hello World' app. 12:39:19 it seems my idiocy knows no bounds. i found out about the bochs-modified release from here: http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/bochs/colorforth_under_bochs.html -- reading that i was after this: http://personalwebs.oakland.edu/~maslicke/colorforth/ which was supposed to contain the modified version. 12:39:34 and guess where there's a full mirror of the release? 12:39:38 here: http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/bochs/ 12:39:44 Quartus_: yes, that scared me too. 12:39:55 Quartus_: surely it wouldn't be hard to defined s" though? 12:40:05 -d 12:40:26 Is it? Huffman-encoded character strings, don't forget. 12:40:50 i can't forget what i don't know. 12:41:01 didn't realise that. 12:41:31 Likewise, intercal works exclusively in roman numerals. 12:41:34 it escapes me why people claim strings aren't useful. obviously, if colorForth is a dedicated language, then fair enough. but string primitives seem useful for just about everything. 12:41:48 i.e., a debug message for example. 12:41:53 hell, nasm handles strings. 12:41:59 forth has strings and string primitives. 12:42:22 of course. 12:42:25 i'm talking colorForth. 12:42:50 it has strings too, just bizarro ones. 12:43:03 hmm. 12:43:24 i still can't see why one can't abstract a little and have a decent set of basic string words. 12:43:28 you can embed a debug message, once it's translated by you or by the computer into huffman. 12:43:35 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 12:43:36 i see. 12:44:06 don't get me wrong, I think it's insane. But you can do it. 12:44:45 you can write easily in intercal too, if you define enough support subroutines. 12:45:58 i asked this in #c4th too but: is chuck (a) still working on colorForth (b) planning another release that anyone knows of? the site, it seems, is gone as of today. 12:46:23 I speak from having done so, once, on a lark. 12:46:34 gone? 12:47:09 try it 12:47:13 which site? 12:47:34 http://www.colorforth.com 12:48:35 410: Gone. Never saw that one before. :) 12:49:18 me neither. 12:49:28 I thought I heard some noise of a new version about to come out, but that was from Fox, so. 12:49:32 i wonder if it's Huffman-composed. 12:49:36 ah. 12:49:44 i'm guessing Fox is a quiestionable chap from that then. 12:50:14 I think so, yes. 12:54:06 heh k 13:05:22 wow! I can't believe it, a lot of months behind assured start time for tools intellasys managed it to put that section on their website. 13:07:38 --- join: madwork (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 13:10:54 THINK!!! 13:21:23 think? was something somewhere funny? 13:22:03 YOU ARE ALL FOOLS!!! There's 3 new werties in c.l.f. from last night. 13:22:48 haeh? 13:22:53 or what? 13:23:04 werty. Insane usenet maniac. 13:23:22 ahh, Intel's EFI doesn't seem to be Forth based, a shame. i might be wrong of course. 13:23:55 http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/firmware/ <-- ofwindows is pretty cool. 13:24:20 no you aren't 13:24:47 are there any similar OpenFirmwares still in use? Sun still using OpenBoot? 13:25:09 I think it's crazy, there is openfirmware which is used since years and then they do their own unflexible thing.. 13:25:24 think there's a new fad in boot systems now. 13:26:27 what's a fad? 13:28:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fads 13:30:01 i was thinking: would it be possible to extend, say, gforth to link it with the C regexp library, add a few match terms that use strings on the stack and therefore have full regexp matching with somethinh like s" [0-9]+" on the stack? 13:30:31 sure. 13:30:48 sound like a good idea? 13:30:57 it does to me. but that's no good thing. 13:31:19 --- join: erider_ (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 13:31:21 if you have need of the whole regexp library. FFI would be a good approach. 13:32:19 and gforth supports this? 13:33:05 as I recall with the gnu regexp dealie, you convert a pattern into a a regexp buffer (an fsm, I assume), and then use that to match strings against. 13:33:31 merln 13:33:34 where merlin 13:33:35 gforth has ffi. I hear they're improving it in some fashion. 13:33:43 neat. 13:33:46 hey whats all this about paraleization in poe 13:34:17 paraallezation 13:34:47 you're probably in the wrong channel, ramserve1 13:36:54 zpg, C uses zero-terminated strings, which are simple to do in Forth too. 13:37:24 * zpg nods 13:38:02 i'm beginning to get really into forth... just want to be able to write a comprehensive set of string handling features for a programme that can, perhaps, take a string, split it into a list of strings, the match a string based on a query, return its address. 13:38:29 i've written a larger lexical programme in a few languages with list support (such as a demo in lisp). in doing something similar in forth, i'd get an idea of comparative implementation and a better grasp of forth itself. 13:38:44 zpg, that's a common beginner project. You may later find you never use the library, but it might be educational. 13:39:17 a more adventurous one would be to write the regexp code in forth. :) 13:39:38 yes, i've pondered that too., 13:39:51 baden wrote some pattern-matching stuff in standard forth. 13:40:02 but the idea of porting (conceptually) a basic feature from my lexical project would provide useful insight. 13:40:19 and perhaps, practical. i could write a small subset in QF :) 13:41:00 Well, splitting a string into pieces isn't tough, and you're talking about handing the rest off to an external library. Not sure how much you'll learn. 13:42:35 no the library stuff is just an aside. 13:43:00 i'm talking about splitting a string into list elements, then manipulating those elements in memory, then reprinting a single string (type-list or something similar) of the re-ordered buffer. 13:43:00 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:43:04 matching is for later. 13:43:29 can you read lisp? 13:44:27 Ok. 13:44:34 if I have to. 13:49:39 --- join: TreyB (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 13:50:04 --- nick: erider_ -> erider 13:51:40 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:57:19 zpg I'm still at work, but I can answer many of the questions that you have asked here today. I just need to go home to do it. 13:57:45 Ray_work: oh, neat. when are you home? 14:00:03 Leave here in an hour, make it about 1:45 from MARK now 14:01:32 heh ok 14:01:40 2200 here but should be about in 2hrs 14:04:13 ya. 14:04:40 aye. 14:04:45 Then I have to kick my daughter off the computer -- nick = tiff 14:05:01 :) 14:05:33 Its more then a nick more then a nickname, it's a state of mind. :) 14:05:46 I hope she reads that but I'm sure she never comes in here. 14:05:57 :) 14:06:30 she and arke are good friends for years. 14:06:59 Oh I've seen some of the string handleing stuff in the past. 14:07:16 There's several approaches. 14:07:46 You can do most anything with skip, scan, and append. 14:08:24 skip, I like that one. Think I'll skip much of what I get paid to do and then just hang out here for an hour. :) 14:08:39 good call. 14:08:44 I can't bring my self to do that. :( 14:09:23 i'm toying with the idea of experimenting with non-linear non-standard data structures to see how that affects interaction. i'm thinking in an AI/linguistics frame here. not sure if the idea is anything but fluff yet. 14:09:55 Don't worry, It's fluff. lol 14:10:05 Good luck with that. 14:10:09 :) 14:10:11 I do that all the time. 14:10:28 so I can type : gcd umm, find the greatest common demon-o-nator dealie ; and it'll figure it out for me? :) 14:10:35 yeah, i demonstrated some hypertext experiments written in smalltalk to a friend who said 'pretty, but what's the point?' 14:10:43 Quartus: exactly 14:11:07 once I started a 'cube' memory program where memory is treated like you are sitting in the middle of a rubix cube. 14:11:20 : useful please write me a programme to write an extensible non-linear AI compiler for me ; 14:11:22 you could move in 26 directions from there. 14:11:23 ^^^ recursive function 14:11:42 I was waiting for the one where memory is treated like you were living in Mayberry, starting at the Sheriff's office. 14:11:49 don't forget to put the leads in a cup of tea. lol 14:12:02 heh, and we're back to IF 14:12:27 Quartus knows that quote from Doug Addams better then I. 14:13:23 Adams described the creation of an imaginary spacecraft engine from the operation of another imaginary machine, and wrote about it in work of fiction, so it's about as far removed from reality as you can get. :) 14:13:45 so's colorforth so ha! :) 14:13:55 heh 14:13:59 so zpg pointed out that www.colorforth.com is 'gone'. 14:14:13 Gone 14:14:13 The requested resource 14:14:13 / 14:14:13 is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource. 14:14:46 i could of sworn it was working c 2am this morning, which would be 20 hours ago 14:15:08 ahh, the patch works in boch 2.1.1 14:15:27 how much interest id cf generate ? 14:15:48 I440r, no idea. I've seen a wiki page or two. 14:15:59 it would have generated alot more if cm had generated actual SOURCE for it 14:16:27 Or if it wasn't bound to specific hardware, or could exchange source in ASCII. 14:16:28 i like JasonWoof's experimental herkforth, though couldn't use it. 14:16:43 or had transparent string support. 14:16:45 :) 14:16:56 well, i'm about to test it for the first time, fingers crossed. 14:21:22 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 14:21:30 evening vatic 14:21:56 zpg: evening speedy! 14:22:00 heh 14:22:12 hi vatic 14:23:19 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 14:23:38 Quartus: Hey! what's going on with clf? Looks like the average IQ plummeted about 50 points... 14:23:52 what now? (haven't looked that much today) 14:23:59 the three new werties, you mean? 14:24:03 Frank Buss: "Maybe a "?if" would be better?" 14:24:40 oh, that's not a new idea. The idea of a non-consuming if just makes some people all giggly. 14:25:01 Of course, maybe there's something about J Thomas thread that encorages stupidity: "TOPIC: Toward a Forth that's easier to learn" 14:25:03 so why not write it yourself? surely it's not too hard. 14:25:17 colorforth uses an non-consuming if... 14:25:18 zpg, the idea is that it's internally optimized. 14:25:19 --- join: madwork_ (n=foo@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 14:25:22 oh 14:25:36 seems pretty trivial. 14:25:38 vatic, J Thomas can generate more words on any subject than anyone I can think of. 14:25:55 Question-IF? How weird a name is that? I should write a word called "test-test" 14:26:03 how would one alias 'if' to 'dup ?if' ... i gather you have to write something more complex to make '?if' a special word 14:26:09 Quartus: Amen! 14:26:15 I can't defend the naming, but ?if is along the lines of ?dup 14:26:28 so it'd be : ?if postpone ?dup postpone if ; immediate 14:26:29 i don't really understand immediacy, does> etc yet 14:26:33 ah, postpone 14:26:39 How about ifdrop? ;-) 14:27:16 that ?if I just defined will consume a zero, but not consume a non-zero. 14:27:50 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:27:57 I've seen -if, which is a horrifying name if you ask me, but I belive it's equivalent to dup if, and thus nonconsuming. 14:28:11 0 or drop if -- makes a nice colorforth consuming 0if. hehe 14:28:25 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 14:29:30 I do think the idea of writing the Nation's electronic voting system in colorforth is pretty inspired! 14:29:35 heh 14:29:43 It'd mean REAL WORK for Ray_work! 14:30:21 Chuck Moore a household name. Up there with Elvis, Jackie and Liz... 14:30:23 I believe -if was from Machine Forth, which was some idea of a Forth machine language. Fox told us all over and over that our code could be 100000 to 1000000 times faster if only we weren't LUDDITES and would THINK!!!!! (oh wait, that's werty). 14:30:30 grr: 'FATAL: Could not read the boot disk' 14:31:23 Quartus: I've thought about mapping Jeff Fox's posting history against werty's. I think they are bound in an inverse proportional relationship... 14:31:35 You mean you never see them in the room at the same time? 14:31:40 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:31:50 Quartus: strange, now that you mention it! 14:32:16 Well, we are all FOOLS!!! after all. 14:33:04 Seems like tinyboot.com is down for the count... 14:33:27 It's up on http://web.archive.org/web/20050123121522/tinyboot.com/ 14:34:38 btw, what's this enth i've come across? 14:34:43 i gather another bootable forthos 14:35:25 zpg: how many Forths do you have installed on your computer? All of them? ;-) 14:35:25 --- nick: tiff -> nanstm 14:36:28 Yes, you might want to pick a horse and a direction, start learning :) 14:37:08 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:37:22 heh heh 14:37:36 i've been reading Brodie and tinkering too, worry not :) 14:37:42 just curious. 14:37:46 z 14:37:58 and i've only got gforth, kforth, herkforth and colorforth (pending) 14:38:00 ahem. 14:38:02 zpg: ENTH with FLUX is colorforth. 14:38:25 Its the colorforth by Sean Pringle before chucks was available. 14:38:33 zpg: don't forget Terry Loveall's 4WORD... 14:38:45 Sean built it from Jeff Fox's description at the UT site. 14:39:04 Ray_work: a wanton speculator! 14:39:06 oh, i see. 14:39:08 And the fifty or so toy Forths written by people over a long weekend, can't leave those out. :) 14:39:34 vatic: colorforth will do that to you. :) 14:39:55 It won't do it to Quartus and I dont know why, must be tired of toys. 14:40:12 Ray_work: Jeff Fox is trying to quash that instinct re: Sea of Recriminations... 14:40:24 to defend my fragile case -- i'm intrigued by the permutations of forth as i learn it. that's not so bad, right? right guys? guys? 14:40:27 * zpg is a broken man 14:40:29 I get my Fisher-Price inoculations at 4-year intervals, Ray. 14:40:29 oops! Processors... 14:41:54 Hey, an introductory ColorForth system: http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000058A39.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg 14:42:22 Hahahaha! 14:42:25 LOL! 14:42:56 Little Geoffrey is moving a Blue Constant to the top of the Windy Yellow Stack. 14:45:47 colorForth with block support: http://www.swiat-zabawek.pl/galerie/c071ef0766624d1fecefa2da67a343827483.jpg 14:46:20 heh heh 14:46:35 clearly our man in the field has got blocks down. 14:46:38 and an innovative new minimalist keyboard design: http://www.kashcart.com/images/1640D9EB-9B18-BC32-44A124FCB262362B/Kick_and_Play_Piano.jpg 14:48:50 That amused me to no end. :) 14:49:06 heh 14:49:13 the first link had me in a few stitches. 14:49:27 I quite like the kick & play keyboard. 14:49:47 Good times. 14:50:05 I'm putting some of those or some like them on the site. lol Thanks Q! 14:50:31 is this colorforth hacker self-deprecation hour? 14:50:40 isn't it always? 14:51:13 zpg only in here, in C4th-ot and c4th its like revered and sh*t. 14:51:27 what's the -ot ? 14:51:32 off topic 14:51:51 OK, dinner. biab... 14:51:51 its the offtopic channel for most of the forth chats. 14:52:00 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 1.5.0.7/2006090921]") 14:52:04 oh, an active channel? 14:52:12 god damnit -- i give up on bochs. 14:52:35 see, zpg the c4th is logged by JasonWoof to the web instantly. so we tend to stay on topic there. 14:52:41 heh 14:53:24 bochs is a pain 14:53:47 I wrote this at some point if you'd like to follow it: http://jasonwoof.org/colorforth_under_bochs 14:54:02 you may have to get that exact version 14:54:04 i've got it patched, booting, but it won't read the fd.img 14:54:16 Ray_work, this channel is logged too. 14:54:16 oh, there's a note about it in the tutorial now 14:54:38 They all are. 14:54:48 well, no. Don't think #retro is, for instance. 14:54:49 JasonWoof: where? 14:54:53 or ##c 14:55:36 http://jasonwoof.org/colorforth_under_bochs 14:55:46 oh i just looked at that. 14:55:58 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:56:09 00000645989e[HD ] device set to 0 which does not exist 14:56:09 00000646282e[HD ] device set to 1 which does not exist 14:56:09 00000695859i[BIOS ] Boot from Floppy 0 failed 14:56:09 00000724137i[BIOS ] FATAL: Could not read the boot disk 14:56:13 00000725438p[BIOS ] >>PANIC<< BIOS panic at rombios.c, line 1558 14:56:14 I got a report that that tutorial doesn't work with a newer version of bochs. Just thought I'd mention that detail 14:56:28 yes, i downgraded to 2.1.1 to get the athiel patch working 14:57:00 wow, so this is what it's like to subject yourself to colorForth? The baby looked a lot happier. 14:57:07 this error in spite of: 00000000000i[HD ] Boot device will be 'a' 14:57:18 Quartus: it certainly did. 14:57:54 never fear, i suspect a beer or three shall make themselves known in the next 20 mins or so 14:58:21 Quartus: any more thoughts on the wiki/code respistory idea? 14:59:20 Not since ASau belligerated me over it. I'd still like to do it. I'd like to keep it under strict editorial control at first, keep the quality high. I have enough grief policing the wiki I have up, gets spammed all the time. 15:00:19 yeah, a hassle. 15:00:32 it seems Bochs won't boot off a freedos floppy either, so something's awry. 15:00:59 did you get the particular version of cf that's designed to work with bochs? 15:01:28 yes 15:01:39 as i said, a dos floppy won't work either, so the problem's with bochs 15:02:35 you made the ./.bochsrc as described? 15:03:00 Did you put the red plastic base down first? The whole thing won't work without the base in place. 15:03:09 LOL 15:03:22 Perhaps you should have an older brother or adult help you with the assembly. :) 15:04:12 oh, I wonder if the floppy patch has changed 15:04:27 after making that tutorial, I realized that the floppy patch is distributed along with the source code 15:04:32 it doesn't need to be downloaded seperately 15:05:02 Check with the washable & chewable instruction booklet. 15:05:12 guess you could try bochs 2.1.1 with the floppy patch that comes with that version 15:05:30 Alternatively, you could put in the video where Barney shows you how to get it going. :) 15:05:39 ok I'll stop :) 15:06:01 i'm using 2.1.1 15:06:03 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-45-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:06:04 anyway, time for beer 15:06:05 back later 15:06:07 * JasonWoof looks devout for a moment before fading from view 15:06:35 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:21:32 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-32-170.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:26:08 good evening 15:26:14 Hey. 15:26:24 hi 15:35:04 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:35:09 oh cruel world, efi won't be forth. forth isn't winning anything new area, I don't know if I could say that it's more used than lisp but I think it's lesser used than lisp, probably lesser than 0.3% 15:35:20 ah, that's so depressing. 15:38:09 http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm puts Forth at 22% of Lisp. Their search criteria are " programming", though. For Forth, "in Forth" is a much better search term. 15:39:01 It's an extremely rough gauge, though. I'd guess anything under 1.0 on that cart is a mixed bag, the relative magnitudes in that range don't count for much. 15:39:24 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-33-22.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:40:21 For instance I doubt there's more Logo programming going on than Forth programming, but there may have been more books published, hence the greater search-engine hits. 15:41:30 I also think there's far more Awk written than is indicated by an "Awk programming" search. 15:42:35 Etc. 15:45:20 Hard to know if their search terms are spelled correctly, too -- the headline says "Ocotber Headline: Lua enters the top 50" 15:45:31 Unless they introduced a new month and didn't tell me. :) 15:46:34 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-121-103.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:47:04 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 15:53:27 Here's a very good Forth search, virtually all on-topic: http://www.google.com/search?q=(%22in+forth%22+-%22forth+valley%22+-%22forth+worth%22)+OR+(%22forth+programming%22) 15:53:37 --- nick: ramserve1 -> ion-cannnon 15:56:30 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:19 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:34 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:13:41 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:13:58 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 16:28:45 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 16:29:26 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:29:32 wait your saying forth cna be more productive than lisp? 16:29:34 whatttt? 16:29:38 Stop it, ion-cannnon. 16:29:49 im learning lisp and saw forth 16:29:55 Don't troll. 16:29:56 I only know bash and that a tiny bit 16:29:58 im not 16:30:03 You most certainly are. Stop now. 16:30:06 Im asking aout new experiences I dont have 16:30:15 ok let me sak u what forth you use? 16:30:36 You asked this last time. You asked about Forth vs. Lisp last time, too. It failed to start an argument; it will fail again. Cut it out. 16:34:28 back from le pub 16:35:22 well 16:35:29 what about a free forth webserver? 16:35:39 or more specifically appserver. 16:36:12 ion-cannnon: i write lisp quite regularly, so if you want to talk about relative merits, that's fine. i'm only starting out in forth, but i've seen plenty that makes me wish to continue. 16:36:23 but as Quartus says, quit trolling. 16:36:27 Quartus: ping? 16:36:31 Hi zpg. 16:36:48 Quartus: good financial news for you... to a query window though. 16:39:07 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-144-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 16:46:46 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:46:57 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 16:53:50 ok 16:53:55 forth seems super low level 16:54:08 can u build it up to making small powerufl apps that do webserving and stuff 16:54:15 stuff u cna put in a call center 16:54:20 like end user apps? 16:54:35 lisp is awesome so far I lie PLt scheme 16:54:36 so far 16:55:23 but some part of me says hey become a confomist and do php because these webasters are caccomplishing more becuase 16:55:58 forth is lower level than lisp. then again, raw scheme is pretty hard to get 'end user applications' in. you need 3rd party libraries to get much done (TCP/IP, say). i'm more familiar with common and emacs lisp. 16:57:03 coomon lisp is great i hear but I couldnt follow grahams book 16:57:12 ability to learn the tool is important 16:57:24 CL is bloated, but I don't know what that says about the language level. Such things are subjective. Lisp is type-checked; Forth isn't, generally speaking. 16:57:25 space ship no good without guide to open hatch eh 16:57:40 I thought lisp has weak typing 16:57:47 ML etc stongly yped 16:58:08 dynamic typing, like scheme. 16:58:12 ah 16:58:21 pal graham seemed to get a lot done in it 16:58:23 :) 16:58:36 but was really got me is that u can copy feeatures of other languages in it 16:58:47 hopefully PLT scheme lets me 16:58:47 Also true of Forth. 16:58:53 oh? 16:59:01 now forh seems to get a lot done in kb not mb 16:59:10 ion-cannnon: are you talking about macros? 16:59:43 I dont get macros 16:59:51 Im just parroting wods I read on net 17:00:00 hmm. 17:00:17 'copy features of other languages' is quite vague. try accessing physical memory in scheme. 17:01:29 I think its hard right 17:01:38 scheme does autoamtic memory management 17:01:45 keep u away from memrory 17:01:50 if you ask more direct questions, you might get productive answers. but general 'is forth good, flexible, etc.' won't get you far to understanding what it is, nor will it impress the people trying to answer you :) 17:02:17 ok can I build a website easily in forth? 17:02:25 in a forth system I can download from the net? 17:02:29 free? 17:02:30 why not use html? 17:02:39 'easily' depends entirely on your programming skill, in any language. 17:02:40 yes 17:02:46 but i want dynamic content? 17:02:53 i have little 17:02:54 :( 17:03:00 there's a forth wiki implementation if that helps. 17:03:06 no no 17:03:12 something like php 17:03:25 If you want something like php, php is available. 17:03:36 ha ha 17:04:05 ok but wont I do better in something with more power etc like fort? 17:04:17 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-34-141.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:04:31 Again, not without learning how to program, and the language you want to use, first. 17:04:32 hi Raystm2 17:05:13 there's a learning curve to forth. 17:05:23 Hi. 17:05:29 There's a learning curve to any language. There's a learning curve to learning programming concepts in general. 17:05:36 hm 17:05:59 this is true. 17:06:11 hmmm 17:06:20 perhaps it's better to say: a lot of scripting languages tend to be C-like. forth has its own characteristics. 17:06:33 Slow down, Learning Curve Ahead. 17:06:55 hmm 17:07:02 i take it Raystm2 == Ray_work, but less on the job? 17:07:27 Si. :) 17:07:56 Dang it, I was less on the job all day. It was a real rainy day today. 17:08:50 Day 6 on new medication. I wonder if I can blame it on that. 17:09:20 I hardly slept last night, and I was out of it all day because of it. 17:10:06 * zpg welcomes his full version of Quartus Forth 17:10:14 Welcome on-board. :) 17:10:37 thank you :) 17:11:00 Dang it, I wanna Palm. :( 17:11:04 :D 17:11:49 ebay is full of Palm Vs that are quite affordable. 17:11:55 I recommend a Palm Vx. 17:12:24 * Raystm2 is currently less then broke, why with all the new diseases and all. 17:12:25 how much? 17:12:33 actually, i just purchased a vaio peg-22sj, or somesuch. 17:12:40 or treo 600 17:12:51 $70 each on ebay, and they're the best black-and-white PDA ever made. 17:12:54 Does Quartus run on all of those? 17:13:15 hmm ( strokes new beard ) 17:13:55 Runs on the Treo; the Vajo is OS4, as I recall it, so yes also. 17:14:03 Vaio, sorry. 17:14:13 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:14:14 no kidding... 17:14:28 --- join: arke (n=arke@pD9E07A68.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:14:45 4.1, actually. 17:14:50 Right. 17:15:16 320x320 display, 16 meg ram, memory stick slot... 17:15:20 Quartus Forth runs in OS5 and the unreleased OS6, so you're good to go. 17:16:15 Quartus: still runs on the Vx, right? 17:16:26 Yes it does. 17:16:28 --- quit: ion-cannnon ("Leaving.") 17:17:10 sj20/u, rather. 17:49:02 quartus do you have an unreleased os6 device to test it on ? 17:49:10 Only a simulator. 17:49:30 i have a treo 650 17:49:48 which is better than a 700p and way better than a 700w 17:50:00 but still very disappointing :/ 17:50:27 Palm OS 5.4, as I recall. Garnet. Quartus Forth will run on it. 17:50:37 i know 17:50:50 i ran the trial version for a while just to check it out 17:50:55 i liked your benchmark progie lol 17:51:03 Heh. People sent me hate mail about that. 17:51:07 i ran an app that overclocked my treo and ran it again :) 17:51:13 hate mail ? 17:51:15 wtf for ? 17:51:34 Yes. It returns one numeric value. They didn't like the number. They felt that their machine was faster than the number represented. 17:51:40 "you are making us look stupid and slow... fuck off i hate you!!" ??? 17:51:44 Kinda. 17:51:51 lol 17:52:22 is that benchmark app open source ? 17:52:28 No, closed. 17:52:33 It's free, though. 17:52:46 aha. well if it were open source you could tell them "register and fix it then" lol 17:53:02 Heh. I wouldn't trust such people to do so. 17:53:22 lol 17:53:47 but it wouldnt matter, they would be registered ;) 17:54:02 do you have a regular day job or do you contract ? 17:54:11 Contract. 17:54:17 k 17:54:18 The problem with knowing a benchmark algorithm is that it makes it easier for people to tweak their code/hardware for it. 17:54:28 Which has been a real problem for video card manufactureres. 17:54:35 s/for/with/ 17:54:39 bennchmarking is kind of silly anyway lol 17:54:45 Uh... yea. 17:54:46 Well, the algorithm wasn't particularly secret. 17:54:54 It's not important to know how things compare. 17:54:56 MIPS... meaningless indicator of processor speed (did i hear that from you quartus?) 17:55:04 The coup was fixing it for OS5, so it accurately gauges the speed of the PACE 68K emulation layer. 17:55:10 I440r, maybe :) 17:55:20 i think i did heh 17:55:23 It's certainly not meaningless comparing apples to apples. 17:55:36 dont want to take credit for it anyway, i stole it from somewhere... 17:55:51 Comparing a Mac to a x86, sure. Or Windows to QNX, yea. But it's certainly useful for comparing two like items. 17:56:14 kc4 isforth has one meaningfull benchmark. it runs twice. once using constants and once using literals. it shows how much faster using literals is :) 17:56:18 Sure, and Benchmark compares two Palm devices quite well. I offered a full refund to complainers. All zero dollars. :) 17:56:47 I440r, that's why you need to embrace native-code. Constants are literals, then. 17:57:04 quartus in isforth i have var, const, variable and constant 17:57:27 In an optimizing native-code implementation, variables and constants compile literals. No difference in speed. 17:57:29 const is a creating word that creates a state smart immediate word 17:57:58 a variable being a literal address. 17:58:03 Right. 17:58:23 but still slower than a constant by one fetch 17:58:45 my arm forth (on hold) is native 17:58:47 Unless that's also optimized. Most architectures, a variable fetch is one instruction. 17:59:20 if your code has foo @ you can optimze that into a single opccode 17:59:29 Right, that's what I said. :) 17:59:39 but if you have foo over r@ * + lotsa goop here @ it becomes more difficult 18:00:01 More difficult, but not so difficult as all that. Optimization is fun. 18:00:08 heh 18:00:26 above arm forth will be optimizing but i need to write a forth arm assembler first 18:00:36 i cant stand bass ackwards assembly tho 18:00:46 it looks and feels WRONG to me 18:00:48 Yes, you have some odd conceptual allergies. 18:00:58 it looks and feels right for forth but not for assembler 18:00:59 ya 18:01:03 thats a good way of putting it 18:01:30 i think my 8051 assembler is nicely done and it almost follows the intel syntax exactly 18:01:39 with a few spaces inserted for the forth parser etc 18:01:51 what's the precise definition of a forth cell btw? 18:02:00 but it uses a programming "trick" that would be illegal in ans forth 18:02:04 i bring this up due to 16-bit/13-bit 18:02:22 A cell is implementation-defined in width, it's at least 16-bits. 18:02:28 : asm> some-variable @ r> some-variable ! >r ..... ; 18:02:42 all opcodes start with asm> 18:03:08 That's not illegal, it just has an environmental dependency on the return stack being the subroutine stack with each return address being one cell wide. 18:03:15 which makes all mneumonic words act as a delay line. they do not execute until the next one is encountered 18:03:40 zpg, you mean 16-bit/32-bit, right? :) 18:03:43 yes. 18:03:47 quartus in ans forth you are not allowed to assume that on entry INTO a word that the top item of the return stack will be your return address 18:03:55 because the optimizer might have inlined you 18:04:00 you knew that 18:04:02 I440r, not if you want portability, no. But you can declare it as a dependency. 18:04:18 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 1.5.0.7/2006090921]") 18:04:30 that answered my question. so an integer is one cell wide in 32-bit gforth and one cell wide in 16-bit quartus. that is, integers are stores as 16-bit in quartus and 32-bit in gforth? 18:05:10 zpg, more accurately, a cell is 16-bits wide in Quartus Forth, 32-bits wide in Gforth. A cell can hold a variety of different things, not just an integer, but also a character, an address, a flag. 18:05:42 i dislike "cell" words too. heh 18:05:54 yep, that makes clearer sense. 18:05:58 a byte is 8 bits. a word is 16 bits an double word or long word is 32 bits 18:05:59 :P 18:06:17 a double-cell value is two cells wide. 18:06:39 sure, so a double to QF is a single cell to gforth 18:06:49 In terms of carrying capacity, yes. 18:06:53 * zpg nods 18:07:10 sorry for the lazy shorthand, haven't quite got the hang of this terminology. 18:07:16 I've bumped into the 16-bit ceiling once that I can recall, when building a calendaring module. 18:07:18 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 18:08:34 * zpg nods 18:09:12 Quartus Forth is 16-bit because the OS has 16-bit granularity in its API; the fit between Forth and the Palm OS is much tighter because of it, as is the design of the compiler. 18:09:41 that makes sense. 18:09:53 Speed was a key goal in the design, especially as the first Palm devices were 8 MHz. 18:14:14 * zpg nods 18:14:21 what did you write the first version in? 18:14:59 In a Forth target compiler that I built first. 18:19:29 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-24-129-41-99.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:31:42 --- join: TreyB_ (n=trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 18:33:26 --- log: started forth/06.10.10 18:33:26 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 18:33:26 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Paste >5 lines: http://forth.pastebin.ca/' 18:33:26 --- topic: set by Quartus on [Wed Aug 30 23:43:43 2006] 18:33:26 --- names: list (clog_ TreyB_ saon vatic arke Raystm2 Snoopy42 erider madwork_ nighty_ @JasonWoof @Quartus Crest zpg segher @I440r timlarson madgarden @Quartus_ Teratogen virsys @crc k4jcw Zarutian ohub michaelw Zymurgy larsb clog warpzero juri_ ccfg nighty Jim7J1AJH) 18:48:25 --- quit: clog (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:48:26 --- nick: clog_ -> clog 18:48:36 --- join: saon_ (i=1000@c-24-129-41-99.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:51:27 night all. 18:51:28 --- part: zpg left #forth 18:57:06 --- join: saon__ (i=1000@c-24-129-41-99.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:57:42 --- quit: saon_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:02:30 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:03:26 : @++ ( a -- x a' ) dup @ swap 1 cells + ; 19:03:28 : c@++ ( ca -- c ca' ) dup c@ swap 1 chars + ; 19:03:47 Now there's some Forth... 19:07:00 From someone who learned C firt. 19:07:01 first. 19:07:20 I'd say++ 19:08:01 plus, when do you want the value you've fetched to be underneath the address? 19:08:41 Beat's me... 19:08:54 g'night all! 19:08:57 ciao 19:09:32 ciao Quartus! 19:09:55 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 1.5.0.7/2006090921]") 19:11:41 --- quit: saon__ ("leaving") 19:15:58 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:21:22 --- join: erider_ (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #forth 19:22:14 chao 19:30:23 --- quit: erider (Success) 19:42:11 --- join: erider__ (n=erider@nc-67-77-215-167.dyn.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 19:42:39 --- nick: erider__ -> erider 19:54:20 --- quit: erider_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:00:24 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 20:59:25 --- join: luptenschteiner (n=User@ppp115-51.lns1.adl4.internode.on.net) joined #forth 21:16:01 hi luptenschteiner 21:20:48 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 21:21:31 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-34-141.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 21:26:45 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 21:29:53 sorry, Quartus. Hi. Just going out, back later. :) 21:30:01 :) ok 21:38:53 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:37:18 --- join: wanderer__ (n=User@ppp124-116.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net) joined #forth 22:54:26 --- quit: luptenschteiner (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:25:16 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:51:58 --- nick: wanderer__ -> luptenschteiner 23:58:30 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 23:59:26 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.10.10