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14:43:53 <Quartus__> hey.
14:46:52 <JasonWoof> ho
14:47:01 <Quartus__> whazza?
14:47:14 <JasonWoof> finishing up some html work
14:47:53 <Quartus__> not as dull as it sounds, hopefully
14:48:04 <JasonWoof> nah :)
14:48:09 <JasonWoof> I'm learning to enjoy it :)
14:48:24 <Quartus__> that's the spirit. :)
14:48:53 <JasonWoof> got to do it the fun way with css
14:49:19 <JasonWoof> converted his stupid gif+javascript rollovers to png+css
14:49:39 <JasonWoof> if your browser doesn't do css, then you see text links
14:49:50 <Quartus__> you have the machine that goes "png"?
14:50:34 <JasonWoof> it goes "PWFFWWWANNG" when I forget to turn the speakers off before turning it on.
14:50:52 <Quartus__> gear!
14:51:26 <JasonWoof> one of the particularly annoying things about macs, is that it sends the startup chime to the speakers/headphones if you have them plugged in
14:51:38 <Quartus__> heh.
14:52:00 <JasonWoof> I'd prefer it always went to the internal speaker which I unplugged
14:52:50 <Quartus__> well, the apple way is their way, not yours. Lucky is when their way is also your way. 
14:53:12 <JasonWoof> yeah, I'm not big on extranious noises
14:53:51 <JasonWoof> well, I like making them, but I don't want competition from my computer ;)
14:54:01 <Quartus__> heh
15:00:02 --- nick: Quiznos -> GoogleMaster
15:00:13 --- nick: GoogleMaster -> Quiznos
15:02:10 <Quartus> I see Fox is again trolling his little heart out on c.l.f
15:04:10 <JasonWoof> such a weird guy
15:05:03 <Quartus> I am mystified by those who, as slava put it the other day, seek confrontation rather than discussion.  Must be pent-up anger or something.
15:05:09 <JasonWoof> I have great respect for him. He's written some great things and pulled together great info on ultratechnology.com
15:05:36 <Quartus> My contempt for him is magnified by the fact that he's capable of doing good things.
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15:05:45 <Quartus> Yet chooses this inanity instead.
15:06:09 <JasonWoof> heh
15:06:17 <JasonWoof> I just steer clear of clf
15:06:38 <Quartus> Useful things crop up there. I steer clear of Fox, though.
15:07:02 <JasonWoof> I haven't read this stuff, but my guess is that it's not anger
15:07:08 <JasonWoof> I've argued a fair bit in this channel
15:07:11 <JasonWoof> (fruitlessly)
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15:07:42 <Quartus> Sure, but you have a position, and you're just discussing it.  Fox is using emotional language to start a fight.  Different.
15:07:44 <JasonWoof> iirc I was always trying to make a difference
15:08:17 <JasonWoof> oh
15:08:25 <JasonWoof> I know too little to comment on that
15:09:30 <Quartus> I can briefly outline his current stupidity if you like, but I assure you it isn't especially interesting.
15:10:37 <JasonWoof> nah
15:10:40 <TreyB> Quartus: I suspect a bi-polar condition, and that he won't stay on his meds.
15:10:51 <JasonWoof> sounds like enough time has been wasted on that already
15:11:06 <Quartus> TreyB, or he's just a belligerent ass.  Possibly the symptomolgy is similar.
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15:11:48 <TreyB> I met him at one of the SVFIG Forth days.  He didn't come across as an ass then.
15:12:10 <Quartus> Possibly face-to-face he has more concern for actually getting punched in the nose.
15:12:45 <JasonWoof> hehe
15:14:17 <TreyB> I just ignore his posts when he gets this way.  I've postulated that one could track his condition by plotting the number of posts over time.  Once he crosses a certain threshold, he's gone manic and you could safely ignore him until the post frequency drops down again.
15:14:39 <Quartus> I diagnosed Coughlin that way years ago.
15:15:10 <Quartus> For awhile Fox was posting "last post from me ever" for awhile.  I was hopeful.
15:15:22 <TreyB> heh
15:16:23 <Quartus> I'm pleased to see Ertl not rising to the bait.
15:17:32 <TreyB> He usually restrains himself, although he has a softspot for gforth (go figure ;-)
15:17:48 <Quartus> Fox has some bizarre fixation about C.
15:19:21 <TreyB> Yeah, when get goes manic he sees dragons where we see windmills.
15:19:34 <Quartus> I wish he did. Then they might scare him into silence.
15:22:33 * TreyB hopes to make it to Forth day this year.
15:22:49 <Quartus> I'd like to. Bit far away.
15:23:33 <TreyB> I could probably tack it on to a trip to the home office in Mountain View.  They've made rumblings about a visit.
15:23:56 <Quartus> Is MVP still a going concern?
15:26:05 <TreyB> MVP?
15:26:47 <Quartus> Mountain View Press.
15:26:55 <TreyB> I don't know.
15:27:12 <Quartus> Forth publication outfit.
15:27:30 <Quartus> Came to mind when you mentioned Mountain View.
15:27:41 <Quiznos> i have a few books from mvp
15:27:55 <Quiznos> 80s titles
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15:35:49 <JasonWoof> holy crap, I finished my work
15:36:26 <JasonWoof> weird
15:36:35 <JasonWoof> think I'll make some invoices :)
15:36:50 <JasonWoof> getting payed is always a nice touch
15:36:58 <Quartus> :)
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15:37:20 <TreyB> You don't program better hungry?
15:37:53 <JasonWoof> there hasn't been much of a correlation in my life between hunger and invoices
15:38:15 <TreyB> Me either.
15:38:32 <JasonWoof> I tend to assume that I don't program as well hungry
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16:17:05 <fission> heh
16:17:16 <fission> what if you won't get fed until you program? ;-)
16:21:22 <Quartus__> shh, don't talk about food while I'm coding! :)
16:21:28 <fission> haha I'm making pasta
16:21:40 <fission> er I mean 
16:21:40 <fission>  
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17:11:15 <JasonWoof> wow
17:11:23 <JasonWoof> I went downstairs to grab an apple or something
17:11:27 <JasonWoof> ended up making pancakes
17:11:59 <JasonWoof> dunno why that wows me
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17:23:44 <fission> hahaha
17:23:49 <fission> were they apple pancakes?
17:45:03 <JasonWoof> 2nd half was :)
17:45:22 <JasonWoof> (2nd half of the batter)
17:45:28 <JasonWoof> wheee!
17:45:36 <JasonWoof> fovium can now insert source tokens
17:45:48 <JasonWoof> now to make it so you can get a source token by typing a word name...
17:46:34 <JasonWoof> hmm...
17:46:36 <JasonWoof> maybe that's not next
17:46:58 <JasonWoof> first I need to make it so when you type it shows up on the screen in an intellagible place
17:48:25 <JasonWoof> hmmm
17:48:28 <JasonWoof> too much thinking ;)
17:49:19 <JasonWoof> this might be one of those times where I should think ahead
17:53:33 <fission> I should learn how to make pancakes
17:53:35 <fission> or crepes
17:53:55 <JasonWoof> it's easy if you get a good simple recipe
17:53:56 <fission> hmm fovium
17:54:10 <JasonWoof> only trick is getting the pan the right temperature
17:54:16 <JasonWoof> oh, not fovium. fronds
17:54:21 <JasonWoof> fovium is the virtual machine
17:54:27 <JasonWoof> on which fronds runs
17:54:50 <JasonWoof> fronds is getting fairly close to being usable
17:56:42 <JasonWoof> just need to finish makeing it so you can type sorce in
17:56:57 <JasonWoof> then make it so you can add and delete whole definitions, and change colors
17:57:26 <JasonWoof> hmm... might have to make it so I can set meta-data too
17:57:42 <JasonWoof> type is pretty important
17:58:44 <Quartus> I added a Forth syntax-colouring mode to an editor the other day -- primarily Standard words are one colour, comments another.  Mildly amusing.
17:59:32 <JasonWoof> Quartus: I've made one for vim
17:59:48 <JasonWoof> for my dialects though
17:59:56 <Quartus> It certainly makes the screen more kid-friendly, but I'm not sure it's all that helpful. :)
18:00:14 <JasonWoof> I like the contrast between definitions and compile-time stuff
18:00:46 <Quartus> I could only manage that by starting a colour change at : and ending it at ;, which would be fine if : and ; didn't occur inside a definition, as they sometimes do.
18:00:52 <JasonWoof> (I didn't highlight standard words, I mostly just colored: 1) definitions 2) compile-time 3) comments)
18:01:42 <JasonWoof> iirc mine started with : on the begining of a line, and ended with ' ;'
18:02:06 <Quartus> I don't think this little coloring language provides that level of sophistication.
18:02:50 <JasonWoof> hmm... take that back
18:03:05 <JasonWoof> mine starts with ": " and ends at end of line
18:03:09 <JasonWoof> not sophisticated
18:03:36 <Quartus> Ah. I give defining words (and ;) their own colour.
18:03:53 <Quartus> As I say, it gives a fun party feel to editing, but I haven't noticed that it helps otherwise.
18:04:24 <JasonWoof> ahh, there's the better one I've used with gforth
18:04:56 <JasonWoof> it does start with : at the begining of the line (or preceeded by only spaces) and end with " ;" or [ 
18:05:50 <JasonWoof> yeah, I put the ": foo" in red
18:05:57 <JasonWoof> the "bar baz" in green
18:06:03 <JasonWoof> and the ";" in blue
18:06:22 <JasonWoof> compile-time stuff in yellow, and comments in lightgrey
18:06:30 <JasonWoof> no particular reason for the blue I guess
18:06:38 <JasonWoof> holdover from my weird herkforth mode
18:07:14 <JasonWoof> I think the colors help me find stuff
18:07:18 <JasonWoof> but I could be wrong
18:07:37 <Quartus> Perhaps.  They help me identify common-usage words so I can mention them in my text.
18:09:48 <JasonWoof> oh, and I highlighted in nasty bright red "then ;"
18:09:59 <Quartus> because...?
18:10:20 <JasonWoof> firstly a quirk in herkforth... it would crash with that
18:10:32 <JasonWoof> tail-call optimization wouldn't watch for branch targets
18:11:11 <JasonWoof> secondly, because I prefer:  : foo bar 0=; baz ;   over   : foo bar if baz then ;
18:11:19 <Quartus> ah.
18:13:58 <Quartus> I can never for the life of me remember what 0; does in RetroForth.  Can't remember if it leaves zero on the stack, or doesn't, or what.
18:14:10 <JasonWoof> it's terse
18:14:14 <Quartus> I have to look it up each time.
18:14:16 <JasonWoof> but quite useful if you can remember what it does
18:14:24 <JasonWoof> it never leaves a zero
18:14:29 <JasonWoof> on zero it drops and exits
18:14:31 <JasonWoof> otherwise does nothing
18:14:47 <Quartus> So  : 0;  s" ?dup if exit then" evaluate ; immediate
18:15:05 <Quartus> Oh.  No, other way 'round.
18:15:09 <Quartus> So  : 0;  s" ?dup 0= if exit then" evaluate ; immediate
18:15:16 <Quartus> As a name, it does not work for me.
18:15:39 <JasonWoof> "0;" is equivalent to "dup 0 = if drop exit then"
18:16:00 <Quartus> Right.  As per my second definition there.
18:16:04 <JasonWoof> yeah
18:16:22 <JasonWoof> I also use 0=; which isn't so weird
18:16:33 <JasonWoof> is equivilent to "0= if exit then"
18:16:42 <JasonWoof> ie it always drops
18:17:48 <JasonWoof> wow, I glazed over after those pancakes
18:18:06 <Raystm2> I miss pancakes. 
18:20:32 <Quartus> I find I manage well enough with ?exit      : ?exit  postpone if postpone exit postpone then ; immediate
18:21:58 <Quartus> I think of ; as ending a definition, not as a synonym for 'exit'.
18:25:07 <Quartus> that is, as compiling an exit and/or a tail-call optimization, making the name findable in the dictionary, exiting compilation state.
18:58:33 * Bensel finds that pforth doesn't allow >r and boggles
18:59:10 <Quartus> You mean from the command-line, or inside a definition?  I recall pforth is a Standard Forth, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
18:59:24 <LoganCapaldo> Bensel: You're obviously not enough of a "real programmer" ;)
18:59:38 <Bensel> Nope, still learning Forth :)
19:00:40 <Quartus> Bensel, the pforth page suggests it's Standard, so    : foo 3 >r 5 r> - . ;  foo -> 2
19:00:56 <Quartus> should work
19:00:58 <Bensel> Nope
19:01:00 <Bensel> Segfaults
19:01:38 * Bensel goes and uses gforth instead
19:01:47 <Quartus> I just tried it under pforth. Works fine.
19:02:03 <LoganCapaldo> sounds like someone accidently redefined >r
19:02:06 <Quartus> What you can't do is something like       : foo 3 >r ;     or      : foo r> ;
19:02:08 <LoganCapaldo> (kidding)
19:02:26 <Bensel> Quartus: Right
19:02:37 <Quartus> You need to balance the return stack inside a work, under pforth, or under Gforth for that matter.
19:02:44 <Quartus> s/work/word
19:02:58 * Bensel downloads the source for pforth
19:03:09 <Quartus> But I just downloaded pforth, tried  : foo 3 >r 5 r> - . ;    and foo displays 2.
19:03:34 <Quartus> Which it should. Which it will also do under Gforth, or Quartus Forth, or SwiftForth, or Win32Forth, etc.
19:04:39 <Quartus> : foo 3 >r ; foo    will neatly crash most Forths.
19:04:49 <Bensel> Of course
19:05:03 <Quartus> So I'm not understanding what problem you're having.
19:05:41 <Bensel> It segfaults whenever I use >r for whatever reason
19:05:57 <Bensel> (including your example)
19:06:05 <Quartus> The stock executable in the download? Under what OS?
19:06:14 <Bensel> Ubuntu
19:06:31 <Bensel> (not Windows, sorry, should have mentioned that :/)
19:08:21 * Bensel compiles
19:09:11 <Quartus> The code in the pforth kernel for r> and >r is brutally simple; I have no idea why it'd break under Ubuntu or anywhere else.
19:10:49 * Bensel makes a note to later download the source package and see what the difference is
19:10:51 <jcw> Possibly compiled for the wrong arch?  Compiled for athlon, running on a 386?
19:11:04 <Quartus> Then I would expect no word to work properly.
19:11:13 <Bensel> This works, so...
19:11:18 <JasonWoof> Quartus: I have a word like your ?exit
19:11:19 <jcw> What is pforth written in?
19:11:25 <Quartus> C.
19:11:28 <JasonWoof> I call it if;
19:11:52 <JasonWoof> I've called it ?; before but that looks more cryptic to me
19:12:18 <JasonWoof> point taken about ; usually ending defs
19:12:25 <JasonWoof> I've gotten used to ; not ending defs
19:12:26 <Quartus> That's again blending the name ; with the meaning of 'exit'.  I don't mind typing the extra characters.
19:12:46 <JasonWoof> to me ; does mean exit, so it's not confusing
19:13:04 <JasonWoof> most of my forth-related work has been with screwy forths where that's all ; does
19:13:07 * Bensel gets back to trying to abuse >r
19:17:56 <Quartus> JasonWoof, in which case if; means if-exit, which is the same thing ?exit means, so. :)
19:20:29 <JasonWoof> Quartus: thought that's what I said :) I have the same word, but call it if;
19:20:34 <Quartus> heh
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21:12:01 <JasonWoof> http://bash.org/?244321
21:13:12 <fission> heh yeah I remember that one
21:15:44 <Quartus> I have a story of someone even stupider than that guy.
21:16:12 <JasonWoof> hehe
21:16:23 <Quartus> I'm at a coffee & muffins place, just bought a coffee, I'm adding the appropriate stuff to it.  Woman behind me in line orders a coffee, gets it, spends the next 60 seconds fishing around in her purse,
21:16:29 <Quartus> complaining that she can't find her change.
21:16:40 <Quartus> So eventually the guy behind the counter says "Don't worry about it, it's on the house."
21:16:55 <Quartus> She looks up at him, furious, and says "Why didn't you tell me that before I went looking for the money?" and storms off.
21:18:01 <Quartus> That is maximum stupid. 
21:21:02 <Quartus> That's in the "no good deed goes unpunished" category.
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21:22:46 <fission> Quartus: heh heh
21:23:29 <Quartus> I mean, I've seen lots of stupid, but that's in the "left your brain on the car and drove away" league.
21:26:43 <fission> I wonder if she ever realized it
21:27:38 <Quartus> She probably still tells people how rude this guy at the coffee shop was on 'free coffee day'.
21:29:17 <fission> ahahaha
21:29:18 <JasonWoof> Quartus: that's funny :)
21:29:36 <Quartus> Funnier in the telling.  It's kind of horrifying to be there when it happens. :)
21:30:58 <JasonWoof> yeah, brain atrophe isn't pretty
21:32:00 <Quartus> The coffee guy told me he's seen stupider than that.  I didn't want to know.
21:32:05 <fission> haha
21:32:18 <fission> he gets to see people before they've been improperly caffeinated
21:32:40 <Quartus> You could use here as a benchmark for brain-death, as far as I'm concerned.
21:32:43 <Quartus> her, rather.
21:37:22 <Quartus> And from her dress she clearly had some kind of office job.  I have encountered people in the corporate world so stupid, I sincerely and without hyperbole wonder how they get dressed and make it into the office.
21:38:35 <JasonWoof> management are not known for being smart
21:38:49 <Quartus> Sure, phb and all that, but this goes beyond mere incompetence.
21:39:58 <JasonWoof> yeah
21:40:09 <JasonWoof> but there are so many jobs that require no brain
21:40:24 <JasonWoof> or perhaps work better that way
21:40:33 <JasonWoof> since an intelligent person would go out of their mind
21:40:41 <JasonWoof> better to have someone without one to begin with
21:40:50 <fission> haha
21:41:08 <Quartus> A couple of years ago I was working on a SVP's tablet in his office while he was in a meeting in the boardroom.  I rolled the chair back, and the wheel ran over something -- it was the lens out of his glasses. 
21:41:09 <slava> i wish jeff fox would release these amazing forths he always talks about
21:41:37 <Quartus> When he came back from the meeting I gave him the lens.  He took off his glasses and sure enough, the lens was missing.  He had just sat through an entire presentation without noticing that his glasses were half missing.
21:42:05 <JasonWoof> heh
21:42:12 <Quartus> And this was not a guy who wore glasses for the aesthetic appeal; he needed them.  Or theoretically, if he ever used the visual input from his eyes.
21:42:28 <Quartus> slava, I wish he'd just clam up for good.
21:42:32 <JasonWoof> I only had one normal-ish office job
21:42:48 <JasonWoof> but it was enough to make me watch Office Space many many times
21:43:29 <Quartus> Office Space was mild by comparison to the real animal.
21:44:51 <slava> Quartus: do you make your living from QuartusForth?
21:45:17 <Quartus> In part.  I also do contract work and have a few other projects in the works.
21:46:20 <LoganCapaldo> ooo makes me wish I had a palm
21:47:08 <Quartus> Older models are almost free nowadays.  You can get a Palm Vx for not much cash on eBay.
21:48:41 <LoganCapaldo> I have a treo 300 but the flippy thing broke
21:50:16 <Quartus> That's just a cover, if I recall the 300 correctly, right?
21:51:17 <LoganCapaldo> well it's also the earpiece
21:51:23 <LoganCapaldo> which kills the phone bit
21:51:30 <LoganCapaldo> but it still works sorta
21:51:32 <Quartus> The machine is still a Palm 4 device, though.  
21:51:47 <LoganCapaldo> might be worth charging it to play with
21:51:55 <Quartus> Sure. It'll run Quartus Forth.
21:52:10 <LoganCapaldo> but you aint kidding about the Vx
21:52:22 <LoganCapaldo> looks like the almost most they run is fifty usd
21:52:29 <LoganCapaldo> *absolute most
21:52:32 <Quartus> I like the Vx best of all the styles.  Very nice gadget.
21:53:22 <LoganCapaldo> definitely would encourage short words ;)
21:54:02 <Quartus> You get used to Graffiti pretty fast, and there's a shortcut feature in the OS for commonly-used words.  And there's always the wireless keyboard if you prefer it.  I use one on occasion.
21:54:43 <LoganCapaldo> well my treo doesn't have the graffiti area. its got a chiclet keyboard
21:54:56 <LoganCapaldo> once upon a time I had a Newton MP120
21:55:07 <Quartus> I remember the MP120.  Size of a brick.
21:55:27 <Quartus> Right, the 300 had that keyboard, I recall.  Works fine with Quartus Forth.
21:55:46 <Quartus> Forth is a good fit for the screen on the Palm, it doesn't require a lot of horizontal real-estate.
21:56:51 <Quartus> Or many special characters.
21:59:19 <LoganCapaldo> yeah
21:59:57 <LoganCapaldo> So in your Forth-expert opinion, does Color Forth gain you anything?
22:01:17 <Quartus> It appears to me to be an exercise in absolute minimalism.  That's of considerable interest to some people, but it doesn't hold my interest.
22:01:45 <LoganCapaldo> aj
22:01:48 <LoganCapaldo> *ah
22:02:08 <LoganCapaldo> well I must be hitting the hay
22:02:21 <LoganCapaldo> I think I'll look for my sync cable tomorrow ;)
22:02:23 <LoganCapaldo> night
22:02:28 <Quartus> Ciao.
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22:30:02 <snowrichard> hi
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22:34:36 <ASau> Dobre jitro!
22:35:47 <snowrichard> hello
22:35:48 <ASau> I've got working getopt(3) and expand(1) ported from NetBSD 3.
22:35:57 <ASau> Anyone interested?
22:36:54 <ASau> I tested it in Cygwin, though it should be easily ported to
22:36:55 <ASau> another platform with Gforth & ffcall.
22:36:56 <snowrichard> I've just repaired my refrigerator cord.  A rat chewed into it and killed himself. 
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22:40:10 <fission> ASau: cool
22:40:21 <fission> ASau: I can't use it atm, but I might bug you for it later ;-)
22:40:52 <ASau> Well, then I should put it on web.
22:41:18 <ASau> Wait an hour.
22:47:51 * fission patiente
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23:43:46 <ASau> fission: Check http://asau.hotbox.ru/expand.tar.gz
23:44:50 <ASau> Sorry, I have not written home page, you have only direct access.
23:53:35 <fission> cool thanks
23:53:43 <fission> I'll have to check it out tomorrow ... I'm just off to bed now
23:54:19 <ASau> I have not included getopt stuff. I'll do it a bit later.
23:54:48 --- join: AJC (n=AJC@chello213047059068.25.11.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth
23:54:50 <ASau> I hope to finish it today.
23:55:10 <ASau> Guten Morgen, AJC!
23:55:22 <AJC> morgen
23:55:55 <ASau> Check http://asau.hotbox.ru/expand.tar.gz
23:56:23 <AJC> what do people use for object oriented extensions in forth?
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23:57:05 <ASau> I know Jakimov & al use HYPE.
23:57:45 <ASau> AJC: You can find examples in Gforth distribution.
23:57:58 <AJC> i was just reading that
23:57:59 <AJC> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~forth/gforth_49.html
23:58:02 <ASau> Hi, snoopy_1711.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.09.25