00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.09.21 00:00:44 isforth is mine 00:00:53 hehe 00:01:36 oh cool, you're the guy in #debian? 00:01:46 #gentoo 00:01:57 your website says debian 00:01:57 i switched from debian to gentoo about 2 years ago ? 00:02:07 yes 00:02:21 i named isforth after a guy called IS who used to go in there 00:02:28 i switched :) 00:02:47 Yeah, I use debian at school/work and gentoo at home. 00:03:03 Gentoo has been extremely reliable despite all the ricer hype about it. 00:03:18 lol 00:03:22 i DRIVE a ricer 00:03:27 mazda rx-8 00:03:42 Oh cool, do they still do the twin turbo rotaries? 00:04:15 well you can get a turbo for my car which has two rotars but a better way to go would be to get an australian 3 rotor :) 00:04:26 hehe 00:04:36 385 break horsepower out of an engine the size of a BEER barrel 00:04:41 286 00:04:43 argh 00:04:45 285 00:04:47 lol, yeah those things rock 00:04:51 im typing in the dark lol 00:04:59 I had a friend with one that used to get up on the back two wheels. 00:05:04 the best part ios the dynamic stability control 00:05:10 that thing drives like its on rails 00:05:31 he must have put a third party computer in there 00:05:45 the stock computer is very tightly goverened 00:06:07 other than that and the fact that the ports are smaller theres NO difference between my car and the mazda class race cars 00:06:15 He might have, although he was an EE who resoldered all the components, so he probably adjusted it as neccessary, his brother was a ME. 00:06:33 i could get my ports modified and put in a different computer and the thing would FLY 00:06:41 cant 00:06:51 the software in the rx-8 has NEVER been cracked yet 00:06:55 probably never will be 00:07:08 you cant get a replacement chip for the existing computer either 00:07:15 that's odd 00:07:18 'you have to get an alternate computer 00:07:19 junk yard only? 00:07:45 rx-8 cant be stolen unless you steal the key either 00:08:00 borrow my key, cut a copy and NOT be able to drive away :) 00:09:05 I noticed my first rx-8 the other day. Sharp vehical. 00:09:21 very 00:09:25 very nice inside too 00:09:36 The key has a computer or something in the case? 00:09:41 i want to replace my 2004 with a shinka :) 00:09:45 I was all into the hype about it on their website when they first were borne. 00:10:18 when the 8 was released they had a guy test drive it 00:10:30 the guy was a HUGE fan of the corvette 00:10:51 he said the 8 was the single most fun car he had ever driven in 00:11:23 the day i got mine i let a manager where i worked drive it round the block 00:11:37 he said he only drove it 90 mph 00:11:39 in third 00:11:42 :) 00:11:52 which put hit at redline 00:11:55 9000 rpm 00:11:59 ya. 00:12:24 if you dont know what gear your in look at your RPM and speed 00:12:25 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:12:27 you can tell :) 00:12:33 Puts new meaning to Rotary Club. 00:13:01 at 3000 rpm the tenns digit of your speed is your gear 00:13:13 3000 rpm, 30 mph = third gear 00:13:18 :) 00:13:34 40 mph = 4th gear 00:13:55 if yor at 6000 rpm divide tens digit by 2 :) 00:14:24 neat. 00:14:47 theoretically at 9000 rpm in 6th gear you would be doing 180 00:15:00 but the computer wont let you go faster than 140 00:15:25 err argh i must be tired 00:15:36 i just did my math very wrong lol 00:15:54 9000 rpm in 3rd gear is 90. 3 * 90 = 270 00:16:04 but you cant go over 240 00:16:39 erm damn i AM tired its TWO times not 3 times 180 top speed if ungoverned lol 00:16:44 cant go over 140 00:16:53 man i shud shut up now 00:17:02 6 * 3 = 10 dammit lol 00:17:09 top speed on the 8 is 140 :/ 00:17:20 unless you get a new computer - then you can do 180 00:17:27 get the ozzy 3 roter and you can top that. 00:17:45 180 why didnt the 8 show lol 00:18:02 oh i hit 0 instead of 8 duh 00:18:17 mental note to self: turn light on next time 00:18:30 kc5tja has an rx-7 00:19:15 anyway time to catch some zzz's 00:19:17 lol 00:19:30 indeed 00:55:00 --- join: uiuiuiu_ (i=ian@dslb-084-056-245-101.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 01:00:05 --- quit: uiuiuiu_ (Remote closed the connection) 01:22:54 --- quit: Anbidian () 04:26:06 --- join: uiuiuiu_ (i=ian@dslb-084-056-245-101.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:28:37 --- quit: Cheery (Remote closed the connection) 04:30:58 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 04:31:11 --- quit: uiuiuiu_ (Remote closed the connection) 05:05:29 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool75-151.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 06:12:27 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #forth 06:15:01 Good morning. 06:15:45 howdy 06:15:53 Hi there PoppaVic. 06:16:08 How goes it? 06:16:40 Well, so far. It's early yet. Plenty of time to get interesting. :) 06:16:47 heh 06:16:49 Hows about by you. 06:17:15 oh, tinkering.. Nothing much.. Looks like tis time to check the propane and light the furnace. 06:19:25 Oh yeah. Weather changing fast. Soon, the furnace will be one all the time. 06:20:07 yeah.. I thought it was supposed to get hot-hot again, but it looks like we can just open-windows on that sorta' day. 06:21:11 No Indian summer? your opinion? 06:21:47 hmm.. I dunno'. Summer was plenty hot and winter was pretty weak. It could drop like mad and dump a tn of snow as well 06:22:17 Where are you? I'm in Fort Worth. We don't get much snow here. 06:22:23 MI 06:22:30 Oh! 06:22:31 around Ann Arbor 06:22:42 Ya. Man. Snow. You bet. 06:23:11 Well, last winter was nearly pleasant: it rarely snowed beastly-loads 06:23:44 That's good. You gotta appreciate a mild winter. 06:23:57 The lakes must make things pretty interesting. 06:24:23 Yeah.. When you have ~100yds of driveway and only a snowblower, you can appreciate NOT going out every few hours or every day 06:24:31 * Ray_work goes to store next door for breakfast. brb. 06:24:32 ooh. 06:25:00 I'm too old for this sorta' snow-removal chore. 06:37:26 --- join: AJC (n=AJC@chello213047059068.25.11.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:38:13 Ya. Me too. It's one concideration keeping me from moving back to Massachusettes. 06:38:48 I love trees and water and some land, but... It's looking less and less possible. 06:39:38 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 06:52:37 It's threatening rain here. If so, I won't be so busy. Please, let it rain. :) 06:52:52 I need so very badly to catch up. 06:54:35 Does anyone think it's a bad idea to correct someone on bad grammer? 06:55:31 How's it going Dr. X Just thought you ought to know, assure requires a direct object, ensure doesn't. So "...to ensure that the damage..." is correct. Regards, Y 06:56:25 Does that make Dr. X look like a moron or is it just me? 06:56:42 definitely moron :) 06:56:52 hehe, I'm a bad man. 06:58:00 It wouldn't be so funny if Dr. X didn't think she was so damned smart. 06:58:27 did you send the emai? 06:58:30 yep 06:58:33 lol 06:58:38 asking for trouble 06:58:57 Uh oh... 06:59:04 damn I knew it 06:59:46 ok, i have a dumb question which will keep your mind off it. 06:59:55 ok 07:00:15 i've come to the conclusion that forth is a smaller and simpler language than scheme, but i could implement scheme in forth. 07:00:42 the reason i'm looking at this, is that i want to do some AI search for programs in a very simple host language, so that higher-level features emerge 07:00:59 i've ended up with a stack based language very forth like... does that make any sense? 07:01:09 of course 07:01:16 prolly more stacks 07:01:59 i'm just curious what features of scheme would be the most painful to get... 07:02:25 features always bite the butt 07:02:44 I don't scheme much, so I can't give you a good answer. But it's doable, and if you enjoy it then it'll work fine. 07:03:06 But make sure you'll enjoy it more than a week into the project. 07:03:34 heh, i've been on this for a little while... just doing it today because it's more fun and i needed a break :P 07:04:45 AJC: Actually your search idea just made sense to me once I made it relevant to what I am doing now. 07:04:58 Struck me like a book across the forehead. 07:05:01 * AI_coder rubs head 07:05:05 lol 07:05:20 it's taken me a while too, but yes, i think there's some potential here. 07:05:39 the details are still sketchy, but i have solved XOR with other boolean operations :) 07:05:48 not going to win any awards, but it's fun 07:06:18 boolean operations like and, or, nand, not or && || shortcut operators? 07:06:48 yep, and three stack manipulation, ROT DUP and SWAP 07:06:57 s/nand, not or/nand and not or/ 07:07:35 now i've got to figure out a way for the system to get faster at doing this :P 07:07:57 write it in asm? 07:08:06 I think gforth can do that. 07:08:21 http://www.cs.rit.edu/usr/local/doc/gforth/Code-and--code.html 07:08:25 no, i'm not looking for constant speedup on the same search... i want it to learn to get better! 07:08:41 so i don't care if it's slow now, i should be able to counter that with more logic :P hehe 07:08:47 AJC: Oh, right, I've got a forth program that might be able to do that right now. 07:09:01 how does it work? 07:12:23 AJC: You define a set of words, and you give it an instance of what is X and what isn't X and it will find the fastest accurate solution by permuting the operators (rearranging the order of the words you defined) until you get tired of it searching, or until it searches for each one. 07:12:35 It's similar to the gnu superoptimizer that is no longer maintained. 07:12:51 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gnu+superoptimizer&btnG=Google+Search 07:13:04 that's exactly what i do... it's a simple iterative deepening search 07:13:12 Except I wrote it and it's written in forth. 07:13:44 so for every permutation, you run the program to see if X returns true? 07:13:57 or some evaluation function 07:14:09 The evaluation function is very cool. 07:15:28 There are words that branch via if> if< if= etc. and there are words that increment the certainty of a particular pattern it divides the #increments for IS X by #increments for ISN'T X 07:15:41 AI_coder are you ready to share that code? 07:16:03 btw, i've seen prolog code that does that too 07:16:10 So the if> if< if= etc. cluster in front of the incrementer and the rest of the program causes the branches to evaluate correctly. 07:16:14 or something similar 07:16:21 Quiznos: Sure, I'll put it up this evening. 07:16:25 cool 07:16:43 I've got to go to class in a moment. 07:16:57 kk 07:17:34 It's still not 100% the way I want it though, I've got a few things planned for it. 07:19:25 k 07:20:58 I spent a few days adding a foreach operation to it, so it'll pop each element of data off of the stack and then perform a certain number of operations on the data say 5, I thought it would be easy enough, but it's consumed a lot of time. Although it has generated correct solutions to spotting a line in a pbm picture say 5 black pixels in a row on a 10x10 picture vs. 5 pixels placed randomly in the picture. 07:21:26 http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/pbm.html 07:22:39 pattern matching 07:23:03 yeah basically 07:29:19 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:31:09 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-204.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:35:02 http://hampshire.edu/lspector/push3-description.html 07:35:48 what's that? 07:36:19 a forth-like language for evolutionary simulation... 07:36:29 he evolves push programs with genetic programming. 07:36:36 is that what you were writing of above? 07:36:48 he/it/g 07:36:50 :) 07:36:55 a program is neuter 07:37:14 Quiznos, no, i'm doing something similar but not with genetic programming 07:37:21 this is more advanced already 07:37:27 ok. 07:38:14 ty 07:42:10 ajc, is there a source package? 07:42:23 actually, i think i've seen that page before from googling 07:42:23 yes, somewhere, though i don't have the url... 07:42:35 it's not mentioned on the push page 07:42:36 k 07:44:02 http://hampshire.edu/lspector/push.html 07:44:05 lisp and C++ 07:46:34 Oh cool, spector is the guy that gave me the original idea for my program, I found his article in a book called animats 3. 07:47:07 I rewrote his lisp midgp (albeit mine is simpler) in forth with my own customizations. 07:47:20 hampshire.edu/~lasCCS/midgp1.5.lisp 07:47:22 and it's not mentioned from his ~/ 07:47:22 yea, i sw that 07:47:22 ah got it 07:47:22 got it 07:48:15 where's yours? 07:48:20 I'm gonna read the push3.0 language, b/c it's purpose is wanted to write. 07:48:57 Shit, I backspaced that out on a single lined irc, I meant I'm trying to do the same thing he is, so I'm going to read his Push3 language. 07:49:13 ah 07:49:59 "autoconstructive evolution?" 07:51:15 i suppose 08:03:34 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:04:41 Hi :) 08:05:34 re 08:06:50 sup q? 08:07:09 * Ray_work working but its raining and caster customers melt. 08:07:43 nuttin much 08:09:21 "caster"? 08:14:05 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 08:14:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Quartus 08:15:57 ya PoppaVic, I work for an industrial supplier. Our niche is casters and dollys 08:16:20 ahhhh - ok, then I did guess the context properly ;-) 08:16:30 :) 08:54:41 is http://isforth.clss.net/ down just for me? 08:55:00 erm wait 08:55:40 no it looks like clss is down again lol 08:55:53 thats the second time in 4 years that i know of lol 08:57:00 what's the benefit of direct vs. indirect threaded code? 08:57:10 time 08:57:27 time vs flexible 08:57:48 so there's an additional lookup when jumping to the code that implements a word? 08:57:53 indirect threading is only usefull on a harvard architecture 08:58:03 The diff between literal/absolute and indirect 08:58:06 A given implementation method may be more optimal on a given platform. Increasingly modern Forths are native-code generating, and not threaded at all, as such. 08:58:41 Quartus: hehehaha - it's only been 20 years 08:59:00 its PoppaVic wrong 08:59:15 I440r: that's nice 08:59:17 chuck ws doing native code quite a while ago 08:59:21 ..been longer, actually 08:59:32 chuck is not "forths" 08:59:42 chuck IS forth :) 08:59:46 * PoppaVic sighs 09:00:17 I440r: well, given that jewel: LISP is chuck. 09:00:22 Gforth notwithstanding -- it's implmented portably and thus can't practically be a native-code generator -- modern Forths are moving to all-native-code. SwiftForth, for example; Win32Forth, which has a native-code version under development; etc. 09:00:54 interactive? or multi-mode? 09:01:04 i find direct threading to be easier to understand and to implement 09:01:10 Interactive. All standard forths are interactive. 09:02:18 no, Q: I mean simply this - Do you trigger a "compiler" for the whole system/turnkey, or is the code it lays down simply file-writeable? 09:02:53 the latter would bootstrap right up and race along. 09:03:36 Native-code is generated at compile-time, and it's that same native-code that's extracted at turnkey time. It's fast. 09:03:50 ok, as you say. 09:04:15 There may be address relocation required, but that's true of any executable. 09:04:29 umm, not really. 09:04:40 In some cases, an image is an image 09:04:54 .exe requires relocation. Elf requires relocation. That's what I'm talking about. 09:05:08 I'd not want to return to those years, but that's just me. 09:05:32 yes, EXE and elf and friends are fully relocatable. 09:35:19 elf isn't -- that is, elf executables aren't 09:36:45 sure they are 09:37:02 YOU don't - the ELF platform does 09:37:47 so, (once again), something interprets some other thing. 09:38:05 not every elf executable _has_ an interpreter 09:38:22 sure it does.. Dive deeper 09:39:57 link with -static and see if you get a PT_INTERP segment 09:42:00 segher: yer still missing it.. Which is ok. 09:43:44 oh, you mean you can change an image so it will run correctly at a different offset? sure, you can do that with any binary format (but elf is somewhat easier than most) 09:44:30 OK... I pass, I don't want to freak and make folks ugly.. 09:49:58 heh okay 09:50:20 --- quit: lukeparrish (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:52:01 segher: it's just one of those super-simple things that folks love to ignore, it's like remembering yer Geometry "proofs" crap and failing because "well, everyone KNOWS that step - so I skipped it" 09:52:54 I hated "Gee, I'm A Tree" for that very reason. 09:54:01 --- join: lukeparrish (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 09:56:38 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 10:03:49 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 10:04:43 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@12.18.108.162) joined #forth 10:05:29 good mornign 10:05:37 afternoon 10:06:14 howdy 10:16:11 --- join: lukeparr1sh (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 10:16:22 --- quit: AJC ("Leaving") 10:21:57 --- quit: lukeparrish (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:34:23 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 10:35:53 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-53-74-48.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 10:55:30 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 10:59:45 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 11:02:39 --- quit: Quartus__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:05:38 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@Toronto-HSE-ppp3712926.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:09:48 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 14:25:18 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 14:26:30 --- quit: vatic (Remote closed the connection) 14:31:24 --- quit: lukeparr1sh (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 14:31:24 --- quit: Cheery (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 14:31:46 --- join: lukeparr1sh (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 14:31:46 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 14:45:12 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@ool-45740b1c.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 15:06:02 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 15:08:01 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 15:19:57 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:56:13 --- nick: tiff -> Raystm2 16:20:14 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 16:23:16 Sorry, the title of the book was From Animals to Animats 4 16:23:21 http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=3978 16:33:19 --- quit: I440r__ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:50:23 --- quit: segher (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:51:00 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-138-035.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 17:42:59 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 18:24:13 --- join: Anbidian (i=anbidian@S0106000fb09cff56.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 18:24:14 join #biz 18:24:25 that was meant to be a /join 18:32:53 --- join: TheBlueWizard (i=TheBlueW@ts001d0641.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 18:44:02 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 1.5.0.6/2006072814]") 19:25:47 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:34:34 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; 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