00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.09.14
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04:38:38 <snowrichard> hi
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05:38:55 <TreyB> Howdy snowrichard.
05:39:41 <snowrichard> hey
05:47:30 <PoppaVic> jowdy
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06:23:21 <TreyB> The world now has one fewer skunks.
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08:55:42 <peterre> hi
08:55:53 <Quartus> Hi peterre.
08:56:01 <peterre> Hello Quartus
08:56:24 <peterre> I think that you joined in slightly when I was talking to someone a week or so ago, with some sound advice
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08:56:39 <I440r> these your users flocking to you quartus ?
08:56:46 <peterre> I've just returned to remind myself of the name of the Forth that was recommended for me to download and install
08:56:48 <I440r> hi ppl :)
08:56:52 <peterre> on my Windows machine
08:56:54 <Quartus> Hi I440r.
08:56:55 <PoppaVic> I440r: hehehe
08:57:01 <peterre> Perhaps it was Gforth
08:57:02 <I440r> win32forth ?
08:57:06 <Quartus> peterre, Gforth, very likely. 
08:57:08 <peterre> wor win32forth
08:57:09 <I440r> err not gforth (ick)
08:57:25 <peterre> What's wrong with gforth?
08:57:26 <Quartus> Win32Forth has a big IDE, but personally I recommend Gforth for starting out; it's simpler and much faster.
08:57:33 <PoppaVic> I440r: I've seen far worse
08:57:48 <I440r> lol dont as me lol im VERY anti on this subject lol
08:57:49 <PoppaVic> Gforth is a decent baseline
08:58:04 <I440r> ask other ppl, you will get saner (but WRONG!!!) replies
08:58:06 <I440r> lol
08:58:09 <PoppaVic> ..nowdays.. It used to be we spoke of FIG-Forth, yeah
08:58:20 <peterre> What is simpler in Gforth. I would hope that both have a full implementation of the language. Is it the programming environment that is simpler?
08:58:28 <Quartus> If you want to write GUI apps under Windows, Win32Forth is the right way to go.
08:58:36 <PoppaVic> I440r: I have issues with asm-based messes.
08:58:52 <peterre> Yep, I do eventually want to write GUI apps under Windows
08:59:00 <Quartus> But you need to learn Forth first, I presume?
08:59:22 <peterre> yes indeed, I do need to learn Forth first
08:59:45 <PoppaVic> I440r: now, fine... Prove me wrong: write a POSIX shell that is portable. In asm.. Using forth.
08:59:46 <peterre> I guess that for learning the language, either implementation would be ok
08:59:52 <Quartus> Gforth has no IDE, and a much smaller initial dictionary, better docs.
09:00:02 <Quartus> But by all means, install both.
09:00:06 <PoppaVic> gforth is pretty handy
09:00:10 <I440r> PoppaVic, fist tell me why i should give a fuck about posix complaince ?
09:00:17 <I440r> or ans compliance
09:00:19 <peterre> ok, thanks for the advice.
09:00:21 <PoppaVic> if you can build and run PFE, that's also decent
09:00:44 <Quartus> peterre, sure.  Check the topic for some good references.
09:01:00 <PoppaVic> I440r: now, now - I was being polite... Feel free to flame the lot.
09:01:09 <Quartus> Hey, who ate the topic?
09:01:17 <peterre> yep, thanks Quartus. I did that previously and there's some good stuff in those references
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09:02:04 <Quartus> Odd.  There it is.  Ok.
09:02:51 <peterre> I have the info that I want now. Thanks to all. I expect I'll be back sometime. Thanks again. Bye.
09:02:53 <Quartus> peterre, Gforth is simpler because it's just Forth.  Win32Forth has several thousand additional words in its dictionary related to Windows interfacing.
09:03:01 <Quartus> Ok, take care!
09:03:05 <peterre> You too
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10:43:46 <jc> Quartus, you around?
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10:57:03 <Quartus> Hi, yes.
10:57:36 <Quartus> What's up?
11:10:26 <jc> I have inherited a Palm V.
11:10:38 <jc> I'm trying to figure out if it's actually useful.
11:10:45 <jc> Opinion?
11:10:50 <Quartus> Ah, very good!  My favourite of the line.  Beautiful styling.
11:10:57 <Quartus> Is it a V or a Vx?
11:11:11 <jc> If it was a Vx, would it say so in the upper left corner?
11:11:16 <jc> I says "Palm V"
11:11:42 <Quartus> As I recall, the earliest Vx models didn't say Vx, except on the back
11:12:42 <jc> Is there a program/control/whatever that indicates firmware version, memory, etc?
11:13:20 <Quartus> You can select Info from the app launcher menu.
11:14:03 <jc> It seems to have OS 3.1.1
11:14:24 <Quartus> That can be upgraded to 4.x, in theory; doubtless the upgrade files exist somewhere still.
11:14:38 <jc> I don't see anywhere that indicates it's other than a V.
11:14:47 <jc> The back has nothing about being a Vx, nor the Info page.
11:14:50 <Quartus> Very useful device, for its built-in functions, and also there's this on-board compiler available I know something about. :)
11:15:02 <jc> That's actually why I snagged it.
11:15:24 <jc> I have a powered dock and a unpowered serial cable for it.
11:15:42 <Quartus> Quartus Forth runs quite well on it.  I used a V quite a bit.  Bought a leather case for it and everything.
11:16:21 <jc> I have a wallet case with it.  It slides in by using one of the styls grooves.
11:16:21 <Quartus> Get it set up with HotSync, and you'll be able to install new software on it.  For my part I must run presently, but happy to talk about it more later.
11:16:42 <jc> K.  I have hotsync installed, but not working with Outlook.
11:16:45 <jc> (I hate outlook)
11:16:51 <Quartus> Everybody does. :)
11:16:54 <jc> 1;
11:16:58 <jc> Catch ya in a bit.
11:17:03 <virl> I hate windows
11:18:07 <jc> I don't.  
11:18:13 <jc> I rather like it.  As much as I like KDE.
11:18:17 <jc> they're just different.
11:18:24 <jc> What I hate is Bill Gates business practices.
11:32:17 <virl> I hate that it's really untransparent, you can't do the things you could do on a linux or bsd system.
11:33:05 <virl> and the knowledge about  development on this system is like black magic.
11:33:19 <jc> Yea, on the other hand, USB devices just work.  Firewire devices just work.  
11:33:31 <jc> And Linux needs something like MSDN.  MSDN is an awesome developers resource.
11:33:35 <virl> usb devices just work also on linux
11:33:38 <jc> pffft
11:33:41 <jc> Not on my planet.
11:33:57 <virl> well, then your planet is behind pluto..
11:34:23 <virl> but I'm on earth so not so cold and so dark..
11:34:25 <jc> Really?  Hop on over here and plug in this Microchip programming puck then, please.  And this USB logic analyzer.
11:34:41 <jc> If you can get them working under Linux, you'd please hundreds of people to no end.
11:36:20 <virl> well.. bastard hardware companies...
11:37:14 <virl> which for every device their own drivers and don't relie on the classes, that's asshole like.
11:38:16 <virl> but I plugged here my midi-usb keyboard into my linux system and it worked without problems.
11:38:49 <jc> Because it falls into a standard class.  There's plenty of equipment that's more specialized that classes can't handle.
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11:39:15 <jc> And often, that's the sort of equipment I end up working with in my job.
11:39:27 <rabbitwhite> hey
11:40:08 <jc> hi
11:40:23 <virl> well, I would say that are idiotic bastard asshole companies.
11:40:41 <virl> when they are so stupid, ok.. no discussion..
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11:41:54 <virl> I hope those companies die a long and painfull death.
11:42:12 <jc> I don't.
11:42:25 <jc> I find logic analyzers and microcontroller programmers rather useful.
11:43:01 <rabbitwhite> virl: how about a quick and painful death
11:43:11 <virl> I mean when a company is so lame that it can't make it's interface specs accessible by public, then it's not worth it.
11:43:28 <jc> I would prefer that they had open specs.
11:43:40 <rabbitwhite> whats the hw we're talking a bout?
11:43:57 <virl> and sadly most of todays companys should die, so that there is space for new fresh innovative companys which can follow this simple social rule
11:44:18 <virl> in jc case about usb programmers
11:45:20 <virl> so much companies seem to have a lot of fear or something compareable that they are so stupid.
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11:46:15 <virl> for example TI, they didn't make their calculator communication public. and I ask myself, why the hell?
11:46:25 <virl> it's unbelieveable.
11:47:00 <virl> well, it's a sad truth, I would be happy when I could change it, but I can't.
11:47:35 <Quartus__> at least you're aware of your limitations!
11:47:41 <rabbitwhite> companies in the 80's used to be cooler about publishing their technology
11:47:44 <rabbitwhite> back when it was simpler
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11:48:29 <rabbitwhite> that should be all there is, hw documentation
11:49:03 <rabbitwhite> ;-)
11:49:19 <rabbitwhite> (i'm joking)
11:51:31 <rabbitwhite> but i wouldnt mind that
11:51:36 <rabbitwhite> so long as it was good dox
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11:54:11 <rabbitwhite> hey, i'd like to know, how many people in this channel have played or still like to play old arcade games?
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11:55:05 <virl> personally I like the newer games more..
11:56:01 <rabbitwhite> yeah? you play those mostly on the PC, or what platform?
11:56:29 <virl> well, I play more on PS2
11:56:41 <virl> and on pc some linux games like gish
11:56:54 <rabbitwhite> oh yeah, i think i remember you telling me you liked 3d platformers ... ?
11:56:55 <virl> which is btw. a good jump and run
11:57:20 <virl> yeah, they are nice.. but I also like 2d games.
11:57:35 <rabbitwhite> i like super mario bros ...
11:57:59 <rabbitwhite> but i fell out of jump and run games once they hit 3d.  so i still only play the smb games
11:58:15 <virl> well, I don't at the time I played them they frightened me.
11:58:24 <virl> smb?
11:58:38 <rabbitwhite> super mario bros
11:58:53 <rabbitwhite> i just thought they were awkward
11:59:02 <rabbitwhite> and had over-done graphics
11:59:35 <rabbitwhite> metroid prime i guess is kind of an exception , but that's really a first person action game ... and, i still don't like it as much as the original metroid
11:59:49 <rabbitwhite> metroid prime is good, but not that good :)
12:00:23 <rabbitwhite> maybe i should write a jump and run library for GC Forth :)
12:03:20 <rabbitwhite> i have to create a sample game and i'm milling through a bunch of ideas
12:06:36 <Quartus__> pong.
12:08:33 <rabbitwhite> hmm. it's not that i don't respect pong, but i feel like it wouldn't be much fun to write - and plus i've written it before and both the process and the result were boring.
12:09:05 <rabbitwhite> also i think that wouldn't impress people very much
12:09:53 <rabbitwhite> i've been wanting the sample game to be commercial-quality
12:14:49 <virl> well. then create a commercial-quality game, look around what is current state of the art?
12:16:38 <jc> I want one of those pong clocks.  But not on some wimpy-assed 5" screens.
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12:36:06 <rabbitwhite> virl: *I* will define my own commercial-quality :)
12:36:44 <rabbitwhite> also, there are many new games that don't incorporate state-of-the-art tech.
12:37:24 <JasonWoof> Quartus__: does the Palm V have onboard Flash that I can use to backup by datebook?
12:38:02 <JasonWoof> I no longer have a working computer with an RS232 port
12:38:07 <virl> rabbitwhite, well then that's not commercial quality
12:39:10 <virl> commercial things are btw. nonsense. hopefully one day even the .us will get it.
12:42:15 <JasonWoof> hehe :) pong clock is funny
12:42:37 <JasonWoof> so the right-hand player scores every minute
12:45:29 <Quartus__> jasonwoof, it has flash -- there are 3rd party apps to utilize it.
13:02:45 <jc> I found an app for updating a Vx to 4.1, but not a V.  Palm claims that The V goes to 3.1, and the Vx to 3.5.
13:22:29 <Quartus__> jc, it's been awhile; that might be true. In any event 4.x wasn't a radical change.
13:34:08 <JasonWoof> Quartus__: thanks :) I'll look into it
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13:36:05 <nighty> lo
13:36:32 <Quartus__> hi nighty
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15:53:17 <ttuttle> Quartus: Hey, my new dual-core Dell laptop is getting here tomorrow!
15:55:53 <Quartus__> good deal!
15:56:29 <ttuttle> Quartus__: Yeah, it'll be great.
15:56:54 <Quartus__> what do you have planned to use it for?
15:58:02 <ttuttle> Quartus__: Everything--schoolwork, surfing/email/etc..., music, programming.  And installing Gentoo, which itself requires a decent CPU.
15:58:20 <Quartus__> heh
15:58:47 <Quartus__> How do they rank speeds on those compared to older systems?
16:01:35 <ttuttle> Um, it's still in GHz.
16:01:56 <ttuttle> They just advertise vague things like "Up to 35% speed increase!" when well-written things like make+gcc will get close to a 100% increase.
16:01:57 <Quartus__> right. But does it bench out faster?
16:02:25 <ttuttle> Depends on the benchmark.  Single threaded code runs at the same speed, maybe a little faster because OS/other programs can use the other core.  Multithreaded benchmarks zoom.
16:03:03 <Quartus__> interesting.
16:03:25 <ttuttle> Yeah.
16:03:46 <ttuttle> It's basically an 2-way SMP system with only one physical chip and some shared circuits.
16:03:55 <Quartus__> I'm doing most of my work on an ibm thinkpad 600 these days :)
16:04:03 <ttuttle> And it gets 8 hours of battery life, since I got a small screen, integrated graphics, and a large battery.
16:05:24 <Raystm2> Good evening.
16:05:53 <Quartus__> hi ray
16:06:59 <ttuttle> Specs: Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 processor (2.00 GHz/667 MHz FSB/4 MB L2 cache), 2 x 1 GB of 533 MHz DDR2 SDRAM, 120 GB 5400 RPM SATA hard drive, 14.1" WXGA+ (1440x900) TrueLife (glossy) LCD, Intel Integrated Graphics Media Accelerator 950 GM, 8X DVD+/-RW drive, Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 wifi (abg) card, Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth module, 85 WHr 9-cell LiIon battery.  And 3 years of warranty + accidental damage protection.
16:08:10 <Raystm2> hi Quartus hi ttuttle. 
16:08:14 <ttuttle> Raystm2: hi
16:08:30 <ttuttle> Raystm2: ^^ specs for my new Dell Inspiron e1405 laptop.
16:08:36 <Raystm2> neat.
16:08:42 <ttuttle> Raystm2: Yeah, it should be.
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16:10:13 <Quartus__> ttuttle -- if I were you I'd go for a larger screen and a faster hard drive. What's the hurt on the one you're getting?
16:11:25 <ttuttle> Quartus__: I want a small screen for weight reasons, and Dell cunningly (for their profit margin) stopped offering 7200 RPM drives on the models smaller than 17".  It's about $1675.
16:12:07 <ttuttle> Quartus__: It's got a CPU that's less than a month old, 2 GB of RAM (huge!), a 120 GB hard drive, and great battery life.  I'm happy with the price I got.
16:12:29 <ttuttle> Quartus__: Also the 4 MB of L2 cache is really cool.  Dunno how much difference it will make, but I expect a decent bit.
16:12:59 <Quartus__> sounds good to me.
16:14:20 <ttuttle> Quartus__: Yeah.  It's a Dell, so some people have said the build quality is low, but I figure if it costs 20% less (it was on a 20% off sale, would've cost around $2000-$2100), it will be worth it even if it lasts at least 80% as long as a competitor.  And the Accidental Damage Protection will likely keep it running for the whole 3 years, and leave it with a good chance to last another one or two past that.
16:15:22 <ttuttle> Quartus__: The problem is now I need to teach my bootable forth how to run on multiple CPU's ;-)
16:15:52 <Quartus__> heh. Always challenges. :)
16:15:56 <ttuttle> Yeah.
16:16:40 <ttuttle> Quartus__: I'm hoping I can get all the hardware to work, like the TV out and the Bluetooth.  (If the Bluetooth doesn't work, I might sell the module on eBay.)
16:17:17 <Quartus__> Good idea.
16:18:22 <ttuttle> It also came with Windows XP Media Center edition.  I'm probably going to remove it, but I paid Dell $8 for a physical installation CD so I could reinstall it later if I need.
16:18:50 <Quartus__> never tried that.
16:19:18 <ttuttle> Yeah, I think it's probably just a gimmick (MythTV, an OSS media center/PVR, is much better than MCE) but it was the same price as XP Home.
16:19:22 <ttuttle> brb
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16:20:44 <ttuttle> back
16:21:03 <snowrichard> hi
16:21:11 <ttuttle> hi snowrichard 
16:21:19 <snowrichard> hello
16:21:34 <snowrichard> running a linux install for x86_64 on my other computer
16:21:56 <ttuttle> snowrichard: nice
16:21:59 <ttuttle> snowrichard: gentoo?
16:22:10 <snowrichard> fedora core 5
16:22:14 <ttuttle> snowrichard: ah
16:22:31 <ttuttle> snowrichard: I'm setting that up as a web server on a box at my school.
16:22:50 <snowrichard> you have a student job? 
16:23:17 <ttuttle> snowrichard: Sorta.  It's high school.  It's minimum wage, although I occasionally convince them to go up to $10/hr for heavy tech stuff.
16:23:17 <snowrichard> or on staff? 
16:23:25 <ttuttle> Mostly I do it for fun, though.
16:23:43 <ttuttle> I'm one of a handful of geeks at a small (~150 in grades 9-12) high school, so I sorta fall in to the role by default.
16:23:55 <snowrichard> I see -- I graduated high school in 1975, probably before you were born. 
16:24:12 <ttuttle> By over a decade ;-)
16:24:41 <ttuttle> (Not to make you feel old or anything.)
16:24:42 <snowrichard> there weren't even PC's then much less at school
16:25:15 <ttuttle> snowrichard: Sometimes I wish I had been born early enough to watch the computer revolution start.  I feel like I take too much for granted.
16:25:22 <snowrichard> I took my programming classes on IBM mainframe
16:25:27 <ttuttle> snowrichard: Cool.
16:25:38 <snowrichard> 360
16:26:30 <snowrichard> it recognized my video 
16:26:40 <ttuttle> Huh?
16:26:42 <snowrichard> (the fedora install)
16:26:46 <ttuttle> Oh.
16:26:48 <ttuttle> Good.
16:26:50 <ttuttle> What card?
16:27:09 <snowrichard> but the screen is scrambled, I think I'll have to do a text-install
16:27:16 <ttuttle> Oh.  That's bad.
16:28:18 <snowrichard> rebooting
16:29:11 <ttuttle> ah
16:31:47 <snowrichard> now have to wait for stage2 d/l again
16:32:42 <snowrichard> I tried 1024x768 resolution I hope that will work
16:34:43 <snowrichard> I have an ATI video but I am not sure of the model
16:34:59 <snowrichard> radeon express
16:35:02 <snowrichard> says on the label
16:35:13 <snowrichard> 200
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16:38:21 <snowrichard> hello segher
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17:34:29 <AI_coder> Hey Quartus
17:34:45 <Quartus> Hey.
17:34:58 <AI_coder> Aren't you from Canada?
17:35:01 <Quartus> I am. Toronto.
17:35:08 <AI_coder> Do you play video games?
17:35:11 <Quartus> Rarely.
17:35:17 <AI_coder> Like shoot-em-ups...?
17:35:29 <Quartus> Used to play Quake 1.
17:36:03 <AI_coder> Heard about the gunman in montreal?
17:36:13 <Quartus> No time for it these days.  Rising Dead looks like fun, but I wouldn't buy an X-Box just to play it.
17:36:16 <Quartus> Yes, I heard about him.
17:37:35 <AI_coder> Dressed in black, the gunman began shooting smokers... he walked calmly into the building and started firing on students eating lunch in the atrium.
17:37:52 <AI_coder> The gunman, who was said to have been armed with a 9mm semi-automatic rifle, a .45 pistol and a 12-bore gun capable of holding four rounds at a time, hid behind a vending machine as he exchanged fire with police, shouting at them: "Get back! Get back!" Police said that Gill shot himself in the head after taking a bullet to the arm. Officers dragged his bloody body outside to the street.
17:38:00 <Quartus> Is this some long-winded insult where you suggest that because I'm Canadian and have played video games, I'm in some way like that guy?
17:38:15 <AI_coder> No, why did you consider that?
17:38:37 <AI_coder> Guilty conscience?
17:38:38 <ttuttle> AI_coder: It seems a bit vivid and out of place.
17:38:44 <Quartus> It's not much of a reach, you've been intermittently abusive before.
17:39:36 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Some people can't tell reality from games, and can't control what they do in real life.  Most people know the difference and can control themselves.  It's that simple.
17:40:50 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Are you still there?
17:43:28 <AI_coder> ttuttle: That question is so stupid that you're a disgrace to humanity.
17:43:38 <Quartus> AI_coder, stop that immediately.
17:43:40 <AI_coder> No I've vanished.
17:44:03 <ttuttle> AI_coder: I wasn't asking if you were still in the channel.  I was asking if you were still at your computer, responding to IRC messages.  Duh.
17:44:47 <AI_coder> Perhaps you could have asked what you really wanted to know instead of asking for some kind of acknowledgement.
17:45:08 <AI_coder> This isn't tcp.
17:45:53 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Alright then.  Do you really think that people who play violent computer games are irrevocably destined to be violent in real life?  Do you think there is a connection for everyone, or just for people who are already prone to violent behavior?
17:46:45 <ttuttle> AI_coder: And why did you ask Quartus a set of questions designed to portray him as someone evil, and then snap at him when he questions why you're asking?
17:46:51 <AI_coder> I believe video games can be educational, they may enlighten an individual as to the effects of weapons, but I'm an NRA supporter, "If you outlaw guns, only criminals will have them."
17:47:43 <AI_coder> ttuttle: That's awfully complicated and presumptuous, your last question.
17:48:54 <AI_coder> ttuttle: I think your opinions are proprotional to your intelligence, perhaps you should rephrase your question in a way that is a little less opinionated.
17:49:36 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Clearly you were trying to set him up.  You asked a set of questions designed to make him appear similar to the gunmen, and then you vividly described the attacks, and then when he asked if you were trying to connect the two, you asked him if he had a guilty conscience.  Sure sounds like you were trying to make him look bad.  Were you?
17:49:39 <AI_coder> Err, make that inversely proportional...
17:50:06 <AI_coder> ttuttle: Maybe I was poking fun, why do you care so much?
17:50:09 <ttuttle> What's wrong with having opinions?  I'm just stating the general sense that I got from what you wrote.
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17:50:36 <ttuttle> AI_coder: If you were poking fun, you wouldn't have pasted the description of the scene itself.  That's not funny.
17:50:55 <ttuttle> AI_coder: And, generally, it's taboo to joke about tragedies like this just days after they happen.
17:51:05 <ttuttle> AI_coder: And even if it's not taboo, it's certainly inappropriate.
17:51:14 <Quartus> AI_coder, I certainly don't care to have it suggested that I'm in any way like a psychotic killer.  However this whole conversation is inappropriate for this channel; let's all just drop it, please.
17:51:15 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Unless, of course, you think the whole thing was funny.
17:51:16 <AI_coder> ttuttle: Well you can close your eyes next time you use the bathroom and turn off the lights when you have sex and ban biology and evolution from the classrooms.
17:51:30 <ttuttle> AI_coder: What on earth does that have to do with what I said?
17:51:43 <Quartus> Let it go, gentlemen.
17:51:48 <ttuttle> AI_coder: That would be like telling dirty jokes in the context of someone being raped.  Not funny.
17:52:21 <AI_coder> ttuttle: You want censorship?
17:52:37 <ttuttle> AI_coder: No.  I want people to be appropriate.
17:52:53 <snowrichard> hello
17:52:53 <AI_coder> Quatus: Do they have something like the bill of rights in Canada
17:52:57 <snowrichard> how are you all
17:52:59 <AI_coder> ?
17:53:01 <Quartus> Hi snowrichard.
17:53:12 <Quartus> AI_coder, this is #forth.  How's your programming going?
17:53:15 <ttuttle> AI_coder: I'm not asking the government to ban it.  I'm asking *you* to have some respect in the context of a tragedy, instead of joking about it.
17:53:33 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Censorship is if Quartus bans you.
17:53:55 <snowrichard> guess I missed whatever you are dropping :) 
17:53:58 <AI_coder> Quartus: It's actually going pretty good, just got my robot to chase after objects, next thing is to make it go wide open when it spots them via motion detection then when it picks out important features to pursue it continuously using a closed loop.
17:53:59 <Quartus> Actually that's editorial control, and I'd like it not to come to that, so if you please?
17:54:01 <ttuttle> snowrichard: I can explain if you want.
17:54:05 <snowrichard> no
17:54:12 <ttuttle> Quartus: That's true.
17:54:28 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Would you prefer to finish this conversation over PM, or end it?
17:54:48 <AI_coder> ttuttle: PM is for the romantically challenged, whatever you say you should be able to say in front of all.
17:55:03 <Quartus> Ok. So it's option B then.
17:55:29 <ttuttle> AI_coder: PM is for private conversations.  I'd be willing to join another channel if you want.
17:55:41 <AI_coder> sure, #politics likes this sort of thing.
17:56:08 <snowrichard> wonderful Mandriva x86_64 can use my video. FC5 could not
17:56:28 <AI_coder> Quartus: How's your programming coming?
17:56:36 <AI_coder> Paying the bills or loving it?
17:56:54 <Quartus> It's going well.  Paying the bills is always the target, but I'm enjoying it too.
17:58:37 <AI_coder> Cool, I wish I could pay my bills with it, problem is I'm a. not good enough and b. not qualified enough.
17:58:56 <AI_coder> Also I love to program so I don't want that to be taken away from me by working at a boring job.
17:59:21 <Quartus> That's true for me also, I prefer to code to the beat of my own drum.  It's more of a creative pursuit.
17:59:40 <snowrichard> phone
17:59:42 <snowrichard> brb
17:59:57 <Quartus> I find through simple practice that my ability to factor well has improved quite a bit.
18:00:41 <AI_coder> Simple practice meaning?
18:01:08 <Quartus> Implementing algorithms in Forth, and re-implementing other code I find useful but difficult to read.
18:01:33 <Quartus> I'm working on a book to teach Forth, so I've been building a library of examples.
18:02:43 <Raystm2> Quartus: /me wants to proof it and beta test it. :) Please?
18:02:54 <Quartus> Raystm2, when it's at that stage I'll be sure and consult. :)
18:03:04 <Raystm2> Fun. 
18:03:23 <Raystm2> It's the tinsy details...
18:03:53 <AI_coder> Quartus: Yeah, if you want to share how you group data that would be interesting.
18:04:09 <AI_coder> That is how you do structs, records, etc.
18:04:13 <Quartus> Standard Forth allows a degree of portability I've never seen in any other language that has more than one implementation.  I'm ensuring that all my code runs in a half-dozen Standard systems.  I wish I had one that was ones-complement, or simulated of same.
18:04:33 <Quartus> I've been using some very simple struct{ ifield: foo }end-struct type stuff for that.
18:05:04 <Raystm2> Is there a mechanical benefit to ones-compliment?
18:05:37 <AI_coder> Is that how you do linked lists or do you allot a 2 or more sections of memory for parallel arrays?
18:05:39 <Quartus> None that I know of, but it's allowable for a Standard Forth to run on that kind of architecture, and it'd be nice to test against it so I knew when I was stepping on it.  Practically it's of little concern.
18:05:56 <Quartus> I've just done some linked-list stuff recently, I've used the Lisp method of cons and car/cdr to do it.
18:06:10 <AI_coder> interesting...
18:06:37 <Quartus> Singly-linked lists.
18:06:50 <AI_coder> no backwards linked lists then?
18:06:55 <AI_coder> or trees/graphs.
18:07:10 <Quartus> No reason you couldn't, I'm just saying that what I just built was singly-linked.
18:08:01 <AI_coder> What would be interesting is if you could implement map/foreach and a few other list manipulating words that could allow forth to participate in the coming parallel/functional software paradigm.
18:08:35 <Quartus> No reason you couldn't.  I'm not sure it's 'coming' as such, as neither is new.
18:08:42 <AI_coder> It's already got a macro system at least as advanced at lisp's.
18:08:50 <AI_coder> If not more so.
18:09:00 <AI_coder> with parse and so forth.
18:09:05 <Quartus> Forth does, you mean? Yes, I think it's more sophisticated in many ways.
18:09:54 <AI_coder> You know if your book came w/ something like the C++ STL for forth and marketed it as such you may bring new life into the language.
18:10:04 <AI_coder> or boost.
18:10:23 <Quartus> I hope it does.  I'm building and teaching modular programming, exception handling, and integrated testing right from the start.
18:11:24 <Quartus> Encapsulation helps factoring a lot.
18:12:03 <AI_coder> I'm fuzzy on exactly what factoring is, I hear it a lot when I read forth stuff but every person I ask gives a different definition, what do you think it is Quartus?
18:12:46 <AI_coder> Almost as bad as semi-meaningless words like spatio-temporal contrast in sicb, jphysiol and psychology journals.
18:13:05 <Quartus> Factoring is much like a compression algorithm; finding repeated patterns and naming them.  Finding them isn't tough; naming them well can be.  The trick is to make the factors short enough that they do only one thing each.  If it's hard to find a name, the factor is too long.
18:13:36 <ttuttle> Quartus: That's a really great explanation.
18:13:41 <Raystm2> Reduction+multi-function+generalization.
18:14:30 <AI_coder> Quartus: I was reading somewhere about the next generation of programming languages that will auto-factor code for you as you type.
18:14:47 <ttuttle> AI_coder: That would be absolutely awesome.
18:14:53 <Quartus> I don't know if that would work, as they'd be hard-pressed to name the factors intelligently.
18:14:55 <AI_coder> As well as suggest variable names.
18:15:40 <Quartus> Maybe. I could see it being disasterous :)  
18:15:42 <ttuttle> Quartus: It would be cool enough if it just highlighted factorable pieces of code and allow you to name it yourself, at which point the redundant code will be replaced with subroutine calls.
18:15:43 <AI_coder> I would give the url except I don't like o'reilly much.
18:15:54 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Ouch.  How does it suggest variable names?
18:16:02 <Quartus> ttuttle, if I were just after compressed source, I'd gzip it. :)
18:16:11 <ttuttle> AI_coder: What's wrong with O'Reilly?  (Other than the fact that a few of their books are catted man pages.)
18:16:15 <ttuttle> Quartus: ;-)
18:16:19 <ttuttle> Quartus: bzip2 works better.
18:16:35 <Quartus> Noted.
18:16:36 <AI_coder> I believe with common names, for example incrementer variables be handled simply like i j k, except in forth they're already there.
18:16:59 <AI_coder> But it's all talk right now, if I told you anything else I'd be talking out of my ass.
18:17:01 <Quartus> AI_coder, well, in Forth, if you have nested loops in a word, you should almost always factor the inner one out into its own well-named word.
18:17:23 <ttuttle> AI_coder: Oh, that makes sense.
18:17:26 <AI_coder> Quartus: Yeah, that's one thing I learned, not to use j and k it gets too complicated.
18:17:40 <Quartus> I wrote 'parse-name' in Standard Forth yesterday -- it boiled down to  : parse-name ( -- c-addr u )  skip-whitespace  bl parse ;
18:17:53 <ttuttle> AI_coder: 'cause when it factors out a loop it's gotta pick a variable name.  I didn't know what else it might be naming.
18:17:59 <Quartus> 'skip-whitespace' is  : skip-whitespace ( -- )  unparsed-source leading-whitespace skip-chars ;
18:18:00 <Quartus> and so on.
18:18:09 <AI_coder> I use names like each-x and each-y instead of process-img using x and y as i and j
18:19:45 <AI_coder> so no j is required instead each-x and each-y can use i.
18:21:23 <k4jcw> Quartus, do you happen to have a Palm V CD?
18:21:37 <Quartus> k4jcw, maybe somewhere here.
18:22:18 <k4jcw> If you did, could I get an ISO of it?
18:24:19 <snowrichard> hello
18:25:03 <Quartus> k4jcw, I'll have a look for it asap.
18:25:22 <snowrichard> my mandriva x86_64 install seems to be working 
18:25:24 <k4jcw> Cool, thanks.
18:25:53 <snowrichard> going to be a couple hours d/l packages 
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18:30:59 <AI_coder> Quartus: Don't you speak german?
18:31:50 <AI_coder> What is the word for crap, I'm looking for an old article for bash compound statements and the author used the german word for crap; I'm trying to find th article again via google search and could use the word.
18:32:03 <k4jcw> Why not try babelfish?
18:32:12 <AI_coder> Something like mist or myst I forget.
18:32:43 <k4jcw> Misty
18:32:46 <k4jcw> erk.
18:32:47 <k4jcw> "mist"
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18:33:36 <k4jcw> oddly, translating it back to English from German yields "muck"
18:35:10 <AI_coder> ok found it
18:35:25 <Quartus> German? Why do you ask?
18:35:35 <k4jcw> Out of curiosity, what are you trying to do in bash?
18:36:08 <AI_coder> I thought I remember you helping me translate an article written in german that had to do with a stack based gp written in lisp.
18:38:27 <AI_coder> k4jcw: It's just a cool language, going back and remembering the differences between compound statements and writing to different file descriptors via exec 3>&1; exec 4>&1 eval `{ {...stuff..} | {more stuff} | yet more stuff } 4>&1 >&3`
18:39:11 <AI_coder> It really bends your mind learning whole new programming concepts, bash is really a unique language.
18:39:21 <AI_coder> http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,340830,00.jpg
18:39:32 <AI_coder> whoops wrong url
18:39:39 <AI_coder> http://www.cboltz.de/en/linux/bash/
18:40:01 <k4jcw> Yah.  I was just going to mention that section 3.2.4 of the bash info has some good stuff on compounds.
18:40:04 <AI_coder> the first url is that goofy canadian...
18:42:04 <Quartus> Oh. I have some German.
18:42:05 <k4jcw> But nothing quite so funky as what you posted...  I do some bash programming, but it's very basic.  I don't think I've ever had to redirect anything past stderr.
18:42:24 <Quartus> brb
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18:50:48 <AI_coder> k4jcw: Yeah, it's pretty standard in autoconf stuff if you ever have a dependency failure and have to muck around in it, that's the whole reason I got involved, beside the fact that bash is cool as hell.
18:57:56 <Quartus> Please stop posting that picture.
19:00:53 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving")
19:07:11 <AI_coder> Quartus: No, I'm going to do it all night long and you're going to like it.
19:07:35 <AI_coder> Like I said, whoops.
19:08:05 <AI_coder> It was in the title bar of my bash page for some reason.
19:16:28 --- quit: AI_coder (Client Quit)
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19:17:23 <snowrichard> hi
19:49:55 <Quartus> Hi Snoopy42.
19:49:56 <Quartus> oops
19:49:58 <Quartus> hi snowrichard
19:51:29 <snowrichard> hi
19:51:47 <snowrichard> waiting for mandriva x86_64 install still....
19:53:23 <snowrichard> slightly over an hour left
20:18:34 <snowrichard> it stopped with an error saying it couldn't resolv the ftp server
20:18:44 <snowrichard> and it can in a shell. 
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23:15:04 <snowrichard> hi
23:54:43 <Quiznos> snowrichard 
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.09.14