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01:23:14 <Quiznos> anyone awake?
01:24:04 <Quiznos> in my forth, (:) is the runtime to thread addresses; and (;) is the runtime to unthread. their asm-labels are nest and unnest respectively.
01:24:45 <Quiznos> when i run the binary, it dumps core and when i run gdb on the core file, gdb indicates that the problem is in unnest
01:25:32 <Quiznos> here's the code for unnest:
01:26:12 <Quiznos> 	mov esi, [ebp+0] 
01:26:12 <Quiznos> 	add ebp, cellsize
01:26:12 <Quiznos> 	next
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10:01:30 <TreyB> q
10:01:37 <TreyB> exit
10:01:38 <Quartus> p
10:01:46 <TreyB> heh
10:01:50 <lukeparrish> bye :P
10:02:12 <Quartus> This is not ed, TreyB, nor is it bash. :)
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10:11:22 <fission> hehe
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16:32:10 <Quiznos> did anyone see my post earlier and respond?
16:32:24 <ayrnieu> no, nobody responded.
16:32:30 <Quiznos> ok
16:32:32 <Quiznos> would you?
16:33:24 <ayrnieu> you haven't asked a question; you just stated a problem and some assembly.  Even were I to try and derive a question from this, I don't have an x86 machine.
16:33:35 <Quiznos> then ask a quetsion pls
16:34:08 <ayrnieu> No.
16:34:15 <Quiznos> wow
16:43:03 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: maybe if you had a sledge haamer we'd be more interested
16:43:27 <Quiznos> it's `respect of persons' which is quite specious
16:43:34 <Quiznos> and not a respect at all.
16:43:54 <JasonWoof> there aren't that many people here paying attention
16:44:10 <JasonWoof> from what I can tell, there's you, me and ayrnieu.
16:44:18 <JasonWoof> I didn't see your post, and he doesn't know much about it
16:44:21 <Quiznos> i'm not concerned about who isnt listening, only those who are.
16:44:27 <JasonWoof> you can take this as an insult if you wish
16:44:32 <JasonWoof> but I don't see it that way
16:44:35 <Quiznos> i'm not insultable
16:44:54 <Quiznos> would you like me to post the probl and the 3lines of code?
16:44:56 <JasonWoof> I'm insulated
16:44:59 <Quiznos> k
16:45:05 <JasonWoof> no thanks
16:45:11 <JasonWoof> I don't do x86 asm
16:45:16 <Quiznos> k
16:45:32 <JasonWoof> and I hope I never have to learn it
16:45:45 <Quiznos> k
16:46:06 <ayrnieu> quiznos - I'm very offended!  Clearly, you want me to jump through all kinds of hoops just to tell you that I don't intend to help you with this problem.  A direct answer isn't good enough for you?!  HMPH AND BUGGERY.
16:46:41 <Quiznos> ayrnieu you could have been terse and polite but you werent.
16:47:48 <ayrnieu> quiznos - I'm offended again!  Clearly, you want me to say at great length what is equivalent to 'no'!  You shed fantastic scorn on *my* biases and *my* inclinations and *my* culture, but for me to innocently fail to abide by yours?  I'm a criminal, apparently!
16:48:27 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: well put. :) well, quite exagerated :) :) but maybe it'll get through that way :-p
16:48:33 <ayrnieu> Quiznos - should I have also failed to answer your question, to first discuss at length the state of your family -- and *then* say 'no'?  Like an Iranian?
16:48:33 <Quartus> No, it won't.
16:48:41 <Quiznos> dont speak for me, Quartus
16:48:45 <ayrnieu> Well, I'm not an Iranian!
16:48:53 <Quartus> I'm speaking for me, and no, it won't.
16:49:15 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: the basic problem here is that you are expecting us to go by some social customs that we don't
16:49:27 <ayrnieu> I don't have Persian conversational biases and protocols, and... and I refuse to cry any more about it.
16:49:43 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: in this channel when someone says something we don't know about, or aren't interested it, we don't respond
16:49:48 <Quiznos> JasonWoof my ONLY expectation is politeness, and that's been spotty from some
16:49:49 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: it's nothing to do with lack of respect
16:49:53 * ayrnieu cannot speak any more :~~~(
16:49:58 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: no it hasn't
16:50:03 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: you're just interpreting us that way
16:50:09 <Quiznos> i have no unreasonable expectations about what should happen in this channel
16:50:10 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: that's what I'm trying to tell you.
16:50:16 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: yes you do
16:50:20 <Quiznos> no i dont
16:50:25 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: you expect os to show politeness in a certain way
16:50:31 <JasonWoof> which we do not do
16:50:35 <JasonWoof> it doesn't mean we are impolite
16:50:40 <Quiznos> no, there is one method of politeness all else is feigned
16:50:42 <JasonWoof> just that we don't act polite in the way you expect
16:50:52 <JasonWoof> quack
16:51:12 <Quiznos> you do protest too much
16:51:13 <Quartus> See, no, it won't, just like I said.
16:51:14 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: you are going to have a very very rough time of life if you think that there's only one way to behave
16:51:27 <JasonWoof> Quartus: :)
16:51:46 <JasonWoof> Quartus: I didn't think it'd get through either, but it was amusing, and there's always hope :)
16:51:50 <JasonWoof> hehe
16:52:07 <Quartus> There's no abundance of pointless hope, that's for sure.  Always more where that came from. :)
16:52:19 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: we aren't likely to change our social customs in this channel because it makes you feel that there is a lack of politeness or respect
16:52:42 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: and by "no" you mean "an"?
16:52:45 <JasonWoof> crap
16:52:57 <JasonWoof> Quartus: and by "no" you mean "an"?
16:53:08 <JasonWoof> damn you two having similar nicks
16:53:09 <Quartus> oh, yes. No shortage. Sorry.
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16:53:48 <Quartus> Right, you'd think a polite guy would have responded to the repeated complaints from different quarters that not only is his nick the name of a sandwich store with which he has no connection, but that's it's easily confused with mine.  Yet here we are.
16:53:54 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: I protest too much?
16:54:02 <Quartus> Apparently that falls outside the 'one method of politeness'.
16:54:19 <JasonWoof> LOL
16:56:46 <JasonWoof> maybe Quiznos would learn a lot by traveling to distant exotic cultures
16:57:23 <Quartus> I'll chip in for anywhere without internet access.
16:57:39 <JasonWoof> lol
16:58:28 <JasonWoof> different groups of people have totally different ways of being polite
16:59:15 <JasonWoof> a few examples:
16:59:27 <JasonWoof> business meetings: it's polite to shake hands, smile, not interrupt
16:59:43 <JasonWoof> seeing your mother: it's impolite not to give her a hug
16:59:57 <Quartus> In Singapore, you take business cards with both hands and study them for a few seconds before putting them in your pocket.
17:00:13 <JasonWoof> officer/principle/etc: don't talk, or touch, and say "sir" a lot
17:00:48 <JasonWoof> there are cultures where eating quietly is rude, and means you don't like the food
17:02:05 <ayrnieu> There are cultures where you really do have to talk at length about family and such before you can get to 'business'.
17:04:08 <ayrnieu> when I eat at Thai restaurants, I'm careful to ask to box anything I don't eat.  Also, I don't eat with a fork.  I don't know if they really care about such things, but I tend to folkways I hear in passing like that -- when they amuse me.  'amuse' probably isn't the best word for this, either.
17:04:20 <ayrnieu> tend to follow.
17:05:05 <Quartus> And then there's IRC, where if you don't jump to help you get criticized on every available level, apparently.
17:06:57 <Quartus> But that's the special advantage of the internet; there's always another self-rigteous twerp waiting for some reason to complain, and if things are quiet they bring their own reasons.
17:08:05 <JasonWoof> hency why I think so many people just ignore channels
17:08:12 <JasonWoof> it's hard to get rid of the annoying people
17:08:23 <JasonWoof> so you just do other things until the channel gets interesting again
17:08:36 <ayrnieu> Just /dim the annoying people.  It's a wonderful command.
17:08:51 <JasonWoof> never heard of it
17:10:08 <ayrnieu> It removes visible adornment -- so that nicknames aren't colored specially, so that messages with your-nick in them aren't colored specially (well, default rcirc still colored them, but I fixed that), and activity of dim'd nicks does not change the channel activity display -- so you won't have to glance at a channel just to see that it's still annoying.
17:10:24 <Quartus> Must be specific to your client.
17:11:04 <ayrnieu> probably, but if you don't have it : get it.  Much nicer and less troublesome than /ignore
17:11:49 <ayrnieu> also, you're probably less likely to accidentally talk about your /ignore's.
17:12:00 <ayrnieu> about it than you would your /ignore's, I mean.
17:12:13 <JasonWoof> that's a neat feature
17:12:39 <JasonWoof> I have a plugin that replaces everything said by certain people with "blah blah blah"
17:12:51 <JasonWoof> certain people say
17:12:52 <ayrnieu> Yes, k4jcw couldn't help telling me about it.
17:12:59 <JasonWoof> it works wonders
17:13:25 <JasonWoof> at first I would waste lots of time and get annoyed when PoppaVic was blithering
17:13:37 <JasonWoof> then I had him on /ignore for quite a while, and that was much better
17:13:42 <ayrnieu> with an Emacs IRC client, of course, it's easy to think of a command that would retroactively ignore someone.
17:13:50 <JasonWoof> I could usually tell when he was around because of the speach patterns
17:14:02 <JasonWoof> everybody going "no, I said this" and "what do you mean?"
17:14:19 <JasonWoof> but I'd ocanially be lost, not knowing if someone is talking to me
17:14:34 <JasonWoof> the mute.pl script works much better, because I can see he's here, but not what he's saying
17:14:41 <JasonWoof> and it's amusing instead of annoying
17:14:59 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: ahh, I was going to ask what client you had
17:15:13 <JasonWoof> I'm not going back to emacs
17:15:15 <ayrnieu> I said it earlier: rcirc.
17:16:10 <JasonWoof> I was enthralled by emacs for a year or two (I forget)
17:16:47 <ayrnieu> well, see the first item here: http://ayrnieu.livejournal.com/124133.html  :-)
17:16:53 <JasonWoof> took quite a bit of effort, but eventually someone managed to convince me to try vim
17:17:19 <JasonWoof> only took a week to become more effecient with vim than I was with emacs
17:17:54 <Quartus> First time I tried emacs, it was about 20 years ago on a machine that didn't have the required 90 gigs of RAM the editor apparently required, and it swapped out when you typed words.  I thought it was, well, a bit bloated, shall we say. :)
17:21:06 <JasonWoof> heh :) I like the 'minimal embarassment layer'
17:21:23 <JasonWoof> heh :)
17:21:49 <JasonWoof> I heard that emacs stands for Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping
17:22:51 <Quartus> Probably not much of an exaggeration.  Anyway I like my editors simpler.
17:24:37 <JasonWoof> the other thing I heard about emacs, is that it doesn't have a key to repeat the last edit
17:24:46 <JasonWoof> I find this hard to believe, but I've always wondered about it
17:25:01 <Quartus> If any of the editors I use have a key for that, I'm not aware of it.
17:25:09 <ayrnieu> vi calls it .
17:25:33 <JasonWoof> vim has it
17:25:45 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: I know that of course, but does emacs have such a feature?
17:26:04 <Quartus> vi. I use it when I have to, which in the last 15 years is never.  There was a time that it was sometimes the only available editor.
17:26:13 <ayrnieu> I answered Quartus.  I've never tried that in Emacs, but it can have such a feature.
17:27:28 <ayrnieu> FSVO-vi and Emacs have been my primary editors forever, since I began to use them.
17:28:04 <JasonWoof> whats FSVO?
17:29:11 <ayrnieu> for some value of.
17:34:57 <JasonWoof> also emacs made my hand hurt
17:35:27 <JasonWoof> control-x is not comfy for me
17:35:34 <JasonWoof> and remapping was not fun
17:36:06 <Quartus> Control-X means completely moving my left hand from its normal typing position.
17:36:41 <Quartus> Or playing a minor chord with my little and second finger, I guess.  That is uncomfortable, you're right. :)
17:37:13 <ayrnieu> I hardly ever type Control+X (Control+B , reading the dvorak as qwerty); I type Meta+X , though, which is fine.
17:37:23 <JasonWoof> in dvorak keyoard layout x is in the center of the bottom row
17:37:40 <ayrnieu> Yes.  at 'B' on a qwerty keyboard.
17:37:46 <Quartus> I suppose the right-hand CTRL and the left-hand x isn't too bad.
17:37:57 <JasonWoof> I move'd my keycaps, and forget where they used to be
17:38:06 <ayrnieu> ah, I've never bothered with that.
17:38:21 <JasonWoof> I had fun with it
17:38:44 <JasonWoof> they were pretty easy to get off once I got the paperclip bent just right
17:38:56 <Quartus> I can type faster than I can compose in qwerty, so I never bothered to convert to dvorak.
17:39:19 <JasonWoof> I was not a good typest before learning dvorak
17:39:26 <JasonWoof> so I didn't have much to loose
17:39:34 <JasonWoof> didn't take long before I could type just as fast with dvorak
17:39:37 <ayrnieu> I didn't learn dvorak for any particular reason ; it's anyway silly (if natural) to avoid things simply because the yare hyped.
17:39:52 <JasonWoof> I switched cold turkey while on vacation
17:40:02 <JasonWoof> it was nice to be able to learn that way without it slowing down my work
17:40:15 <Quartus> I often use other people's computers, so.
17:40:34 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: I wasn't able to follow that
17:40:48 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: you did learn dvorak, but for no particular reason?
17:40:49 <ayrnieu> "they are hyped".
17:40:56 <ayrnieu> JasonWoof - yes.
17:41:08 <JasonWoof> I don't know about the hype
17:41:27 <JasonWoof> my dad and grandfather, and an uncle or two use dvorak
17:41:46 <ayrnieu> Nobody's told you that omg qwerty was made to make it harder for people to type?
17:41:51 <JasonWoof> when I was little there was a key built into the keyboard (apple ][) that would switch it
17:42:20 <JasonWoof> ayrnieu: qwerty was designed to make it hard to type common sequences of keys fast
17:42:38 <Quartus> I think that's one of them there urban legends, JasonWoof. It gets repeated a lot, though.
17:43:01 <JasonWoof> Quartus: really?
17:43:11 <JasonWoof> Quartus: then why was it designed that way?
17:43:31 <ayrnieu> Qwerty was designed so that people didn't need to type slower to avoid breaking early not-keyboard-typeonem'-machines.
17:43:35 <Quartus> Hang on, I'll pass you the link.
17:43:52 <ayrnieu> So you could type *much faster*, see, and because of the layout the machine *wouldn't jam*'.
17:44:26 <Quartus> http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
17:44:47 <JasonWoof> wikipedia agrees with me
17:45:01 <Quartus> It disagrees with the people in that link, though.
17:45:17 <ayrnieu> JasonWoof - if it agrees that Qwerty was designed to make people type slower, it is wrong.
17:47:24 <ayrnieu> goodness, you only need to look at a few programming-language wikipedia pages to realize how difficult it would be to make them not suck.  It's not a matter of deleting assertions or adding qualifications; sometimes, you'd need to restructure most of the page.  You'd need comments that say "brr - see the page that describes the fallacy in this edit" -- probably a lot of them, to stand against the "buh!  I JUST LEARNE
17:47:25 <ayrnieu> D THAT LISP ISN'T A 'COMPILED' LANGUAGE"
17:49:44 <JasonWoof> found an interesting point in that article: that a method used to try to make it so the keys jammed less was to split the keys used in the combo accross the typerator
17:49:55 <JasonWoof> because keys coming from different directions jam less
17:50:08 <Quartus> Sure, wikipedia most directly reflects the understanding of whosoever edits a page last, not necessarily any amount of research.
17:50:11 <ayrnieu> indeed.  Allowing you to type faster.
17:50:36 <JasonWoof> so it sounds like I was innacurate
17:50:46 <JasonWoof> qwerty was designed, in part to not jam up as much
17:50:53 <JasonWoof> from that I assume that a more effecient design is possible
17:50:59 <JasonWoof> also, I have my experience
17:51:01 <ayrnieu> AIUI qwerty was designed entirely for that reason.
17:51:09 <JasonWoof> in my experience dvorak is much much more comfortable
17:51:19 <JasonWoof> much easier on my fingers and wrists
17:51:33 <Quartus> qwerty also survived against a lot of early competing layouts after many years.
17:51:39 <JasonWoof> and I type about 50% faster
17:51:42 <ayrnieu> indeed.  Unfortunately, part of traditional dvorak hype is this lie about qwerty.
17:51:51 <JasonWoof> I realize that there's no way for me to know how much of this 50% is because of the new layout
17:52:21 <JasonWoof> as I said, I don't really know much about the hype
17:52:22 <Quartus> I suspect it's possible to learn to type as quickly as you'll ever be able to on any given layout, if that's the one you practice on.
17:52:29 <JasonWoof> I didn't learn it because of stuff in the news
17:52:32 <JasonWoof> or magazines
17:52:41 <JasonWoof> I learned it because my dad liked it and said I could type faster that way
17:52:42 <ayrnieu> eh, I typed about as fast in dvorak as I did in qwerty.  A major benefit for me was that I typed *properly* in dvorak, whereas my qwerty typistry was put together in an ad-hoc fashion with only speed as the goal.
17:52:44 <JasonWoof> both of which I think are true
17:54:05 <Quartus> If you simultaneously switch layouts, and then commit to learning to touch-type, it may be easy to attribute the reason for your improvement to the changed layout.
17:54:14 <JasonWoof> I'd also like to point out that I think that what product/system the market settles on often has little to do with which one is the best
17:54:29 <JasonWoof> take perl, betamax, windows, etc, etc
17:54:32 <ayrnieu> I could already touch-type, Quartus -- I just didn't type properly.
17:54:42 <Quartus> Well, typewriters were huge.  There was a lot of competition.
17:55:08 <JasonWoof> Quartus: my typing speed went up at least 50% after switching layouts
17:55:28 <JasonWoof> I want from about 40WPM to 60-60WPM
17:55:33 <JasonWoof> 60-70WPM
17:55:34 <ayrnieu> I went from 110wpm or so in Qwerty to barely-able-to-type after about three days of practice with dvorak.  I had to re-learn it later; it happens that I learned it properly that time.  So now I type properly in both qwerty and dvorak, but still only type dvorak at home.
17:56:11 <JasonWoof> both mac and windoze now come standard with dvorak
17:56:21 <JasonWoof> just dig into the control panels and you can switch it
17:56:57 <ayrnieu> In the wild, I sometimes use computers that are too 'secure' to offer layout switching.
17:58:17 <JasonWoof> heh
17:58:31 <JasonWoof> 'secure' as in "we'll sorta let you use this computer"
18:01:58 <Quartus> JasonWoof, if you switched back to Qwerty now, you might get up to 110wpm. :)
18:02:15 <JasonWoof> Quartus: lol
18:02:21 <lukeparrish> darn, all that time it was an urban myth?
18:02:21 <JasonWoof> I'd probably get carple tunnel
18:02:36 <Quartus> I can copy-type at 110wpm, not that it comes up much as a need nowadays.
18:02:38 <lukeparrish> I wonder if it protects against carpal tunnel
18:02:46 <JasonWoof> lukeparrish: qwerty was designed to not jam up typerators. that is true
18:03:23 <JasonWoof> that's one thing I can say strongly from my own personal experience: dvorak is very much nicer to my fingers and wrists
18:03:24 <lukeparrish> yeah but where I read it it was the more advanced version of the story -- actually supposed to slow you down.
18:03:38 <lukeparrish> or at least that's how I read it
18:04:00 <ayrnieu> it was the rationale about the design that the myth gets wrong.  And no, it definitely gets this wrong; you didn't misread.
18:06:30 <lukeparrish> JasonWoof: could that be from unconsciously holding your hands where you can look at the keys vs. not being able to look?
18:07:57 <lukeparrish> in qwerty I tend to look at the keys to orient myself (bad habit, I know) whereas I had to guess from the feel in dvorak
18:08:13 <Quartus> I actually use the little bumps on the keys.
18:08:26 <JasonWoof> heh, the army decided that retraining typests to dvorak payed itself off it 10 days
18:08:59 <JasonWoof> lukeparrish: no, I didn't look at the keyboard on qwerty either
18:09:03 <Quartus> JasonWoof, I was only partly joking. It's likely that changing systems, and hence unlearning, say, hunt-and-peck, may itself result in a speedup for somebody who was lousy at the previous method. 
18:09:10 <Quartus> Whether or not the switch is toward or away from qwerty.
18:09:18 <ayrnieu> Those are nice.  I also like it when I get vdsdblu fuudbocx thot ;d hovu mf honds effp
18:09:19 <JasonWoof> I think people usually hold their hands in a more natural position when they type dvorak
18:09:30 <ayrnieu> er, visible feedback that I have my hands off.
18:10:09 <JasonWoof> Quartus: right. that's why I say I'm not sure how much of the speedup was from the layout, and how much was from learning anew
18:10:28 <lukeparrish> hmm. is it possible to hold your hands just as neutrally in qwerty?
18:10:30 <JasonWoof> I didn't change my form much, but I handled it mentally in a more effecient way
18:10:36 <JasonWoof> got around  my dyslexia more
18:10:43 <Quartus> So, given that there's few enough people who decide to switch to dvorak, studying people who hunt+peck in dvorak and switch to qwerty, well, you'd have a hard time getting a decent sample.
18:10:57 <JasonWoof> lukeparrish: qwerty more frequently requires you to contort your hands
18:11:07 * lukeparrish tries to "not look" and winds up hitting the dvorak keys
18:11:25 <ayrnieu> heh, I can type 'on dvorak' or 'on qwerty' without even a keyboard.
18:12:50 <Quartus> JasonWoof, I manage it without contortion at pretty high speeds. :)
18:13:37 * ayrnieu does it now, typing NIN lyrics into his desk-top.  Cute :-)
18:13:48 <lukeparrish> would be ironic if dvorak finally gets popular after being proven an urban myth
18:14:08 <ayrnieu> uh, dvorak isn't an urban myth.
18:14:17 <lukeparrish> I mean it's benefits, of course
18:14:22 <lukeparrish> :P
18:14:32 <ayrnieu> the benefits of the dvorak themselves are not, clearly, urban myths.
18:14:56 <ayrnieu> The main thing is simply that dvorak-advocates typically recite a very wrong history of Qwerty.
18:16:19 <ayrnieu> on X, anyway, I can arbitrary construct my keyboard layouts as I find them comfortable, even by situation.  HOW NICE THAT THERE ARE NO NON-UNIX SYSTEMS OUT THERE THAT I MIGHT EVER NEED TO CARE ABOUT.
18:16:32 <lukeparrish> the benefits are real? faster typing and better ergonomics?
18:17:03 <Raystm2> Onestupidme is back in #biz. be warned.
18:17:40 <ayrnieu> luke - I don't care about these questions, but people have sincerely produced research on the matter, with experimentation.  You can ask them.
18:18:14 <lukeparrish> ok... just saying if they're not, it's an urban myth.
18:18:56 <lukeparrish> and would be kinda ironic if everyone converted and it wasn't actually helping them.
18:20:13 <ayrnieu> I'm sure they'd notice :-)
18:21:51 <JasonWoof> I think it'd be cool if we came up with a new layout
18:22:00 <JasonWoof> if dvorak isn't that great, then lets design something that is
18:24:22 <JasonWoof> dvorak definitely feels better
18:26:36 <lukeparrish> it probably is. having common letters in more reachable positions has to be better.
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18:48:36 <ttuttle> Quartus__: Hey
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