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04:54:55 <PoppaVic> Mornin', Quiznos 
04:56:04 <Quiznos> re
04:56:21 <Quiznos> i'm only here for a few more mins, gotta finish sleeping
04:56:29 <PoppaVic> oh.. SHoot, ok
04:56:38 <Quiznos> why?
04:56:52 <Quiznos> i think i need only another hour
04:56:54 <PoppaVic> Hmm? Just that I recall you wanted to discuss something the other day.
04:57:00 <Quiznos> which?
04:57:12 <PoppaVic> So'k - I can deal with trash and whatnot today
04:57:24 <Quiznos> i'll be bok ~1h
04:57:28 <PoppaVic> yesterday - I was heading out as you started to ask about something
04:57:34 <Quiznos> oh.
04:57:40 <Quiznos> it'll come up agin
04:57:51 <PoppaVic> s'ok - get some zz's ;-)
04:58:00 <Quiznos> yea
04:58:05 <Quiznos> bbiab
04:58:10 * PoppaVic nods
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07:33:27 <Quiznos> PoppaVic 
07:33:46 <PoppaVic> wb
07:33:51 <Quiznos> hi
07:34:07 <PoppaVic> Just dl'd and installed the latest berkeley db.. I'm trying to plan ahead
07:34:14 <Quiznos> j
07:34:15 <Quiznos> k
07:35:18 <PoppaVic> I am _considering_ abstracting mem/compiling/pcode into the dbase anyway
07:35:51 <Quiznos> ok, draw up the notes and file them in the draw of things todo
07:36:04 <Quiznos> make am working engine first
07:36:18 <PoppaVic> hehe.. It's sorta' "on the board".. Yeah, the ENGINE part is bugging me shitless.
07:36:38 <Quiznos> then get to it
07:36:51 <PoppaVic> I want to retain some concepts and discard a lot of dusty preconceptions.
07:37:34 <PoppaVic> Well, we got into the concept of "engine" the other day.. At least in ##C, and I think we touched it in here.. Did you ever remember what it was you wanted to ask?
07:38:02 <Quiznos> your vm/kernel/foundational source code establishs what your forth can cant will and wont do.  in the words of Loeliger: (paraphrased) you can make your forth do anything but it had better step lively thorugh the list 
07:38:14 <PoppaVic> righto
07:38:20 <Quiznos> or something; i like he used the phrase 
07:38:28 <Quiznos> beat of any drummer
07:38:39 <PoppaVic> Yeah, loeliger is a damned good - if dated - ref
07:38:52 <Quiznos> i have a copy of his book
07:39:03 <Quiznos> beat up alittle but well studied
07:39:07 <PoppaVic> I don't see a way around a struct of "registers", though
07:39:23 <Quiznos> then you have two possibilities:
07:39:30 <PoppaVic> Unless you provide only a get/put interface
07:39:31 <Quiznos> 1. howto avoid the issue;
07:39:40 <Quiznos> 2. minimal funcitonality to include
07:39:51 <Quiznos> can you avoid the issue somehow?
07:39:56 <PoppaVic> right.. THe latter is quite irksome
07:40:01 <Quiznos> no
07:40:07 <Quiznos> but answer #1
07:40:27 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: all I can think of is using refs - instead of regs - and a get/put pair
07:40:36 <Quiznos> hmm
07:40:42 <Quiznos> or, 3 regs and ptrs
07:40:45 <PoppaVic> adding more or using min
07:40:47 <Quiznos> or refs as you call em
07:41:06 <Quiznos> 4 regs, sp rp ip and an A
07:41:09 <PoppaVic> yeah.. Either exposing their bones, or wrapping them in calls
07:41:10 <Quiznos> that min
07:41:25 <Quiznos> set/get kinda makes sense but that's "so yesterday"
07:41:36 <PoppaVic> Yer trapping yourself with the regs, of course.
07:41:57 <Quiznos> since you're in C you can the compiler choose which is fine
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07:42:12 <Quiznos> but set/get is really a c++ thing
07:42:16 <PoppaVic> However, yes.. I see no way around a struct of <something> for at LEAST the engine.
07:42:18 <Quiznos> accessor functions
07:42:31 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: yeppers, abstractions
07:42:40 <Quiznos> so are you writing in c++?
07:42:45 <PoppaVic> fuck no
07:43:05 <Quiznos> so then that's more code for you to drudge through and right
07:43:12 <PoppaVic> yep
07:43:16 <Quiznos> well, that's one way to make life harder for thyself
07:43:24 <PoppaVic> so is asm ;-)
07:43:31 <Quiznos> table it then and add it later.
07:43:38 <Quiznos> put it all in a separate file.
07:43:40 <PoppaVic> yeppers.
07:44:01 <Quiznos> have you fleshed out the required words needed for the engine?
07:44:09 <Quiznos> why not start with UNTIL?
07:44:34 <Quiznos> that's osmething you can get running and changing immdiately
07:45:35 <PoppaVic> so is ficl, actually
07:45:41 <Quiznos> yea
07:45:44 <Quiznos> pick one
07:46:17 <PoppaVic> I've both.. And, I still wonder at shit <shrug>
07:47:58 <Quiznos> well, if you're gonna wonder then you arent testing or vetting your idears
07:48:39 <PoppaVic> Correct.. Just writing tiny tests or obsessing over the concepts. Which is no biggy, there ain't that much interest anyway.
07:48:53 <Quiznos> both authors (ficl/until) did the heard work to make engines tht work
07:49:20 <PoppaVic> no, they did SOME - and got what they wanted. Then, both quit.
07:49:39 <PoppaVic> It's been similar for most forthish implementations
07:52:21 <Quiznos> IMO the ANS should be grepped for words and stack comments and sent out as a diff
07:52:33 <Quiznos> ANS 2.0a
07:52:52 <PoppaVic> I did that, long ago
07:52:56 <Quiznos> heh
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07:56:14 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: it's a lot like "THe Pirates Code"...
07:56:46 <Quiznos> i dont know that ref
07:57:21 <PoppaVic> You've not seen Depps movie, "Pirates of the Carribean"?
07:57:34 <PoppaVic> see it
07:57:44 <Quiznos> nah
07:58:00 <Quiznos> i'm not really a movie goer nor a fan of Depp
07:58:11 <Quiznos> wzsnt it on tv recently?
07:58:25 <PoppaVic> "...and Thirdly, the 'Code' is more a set of 'Guidelines', you might say."
07:58:27 <PoppaVic> yeah
07:58:34 <PoppaVic> The 2nd is in the theaters.
07:59:04 <Quiznos> k
07:59:21 <PoppaVic> So, the _crew_ gets solid "rules" - but the Captain gets to decide when the 'rule' applies or gets ignored/flexed.
07:59:39 <Quiznos> k
07:59:49 <PoppaVic> Near as I can tell, ANS can't decide if it's crew or captain.
08:00:10 <Quiznos> read the Preface again then
08:00:19 <PoppaVic> pfbfbfbft
08:00:33 <Quiznos> heh
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08:33:34 <Ray_work> Good morning.
08:34:23 <Quiznos> gm
08:37:23 <Ray_work> Hey Quiznos :)
08:38:15 <Quiznos> Ray_work hey, how are you
09:09:47 <fission> oog
09:10:07 <fission> apparently "the cheque is in the mail" means "we'll send your cheque when we damn well feel like it"
09:10:38 <PoppaVic> Yep
09:10:51 <PoppaVic> otoh, the mail DOES work that way
09:13:26 <virl> well.. better snail mail than email, I mean when a company would send their cheques in emails then that would really mean that nobody gets his money, so better snail mail.
09:15:03 <PoppaVic> hmm.. I've had mail and companies send me shit that was absolutlely impossible to satisfy.. Either the billing-date or the mailing or response. I categorically refuse to accept the rationales behind NOT datestamping massmail properly.
09:15:38 <PoppaVic> .."that's ok, pay the Late Charge" is NOT acceptable.
09:16:31 <PoppaVic> we see similar, but reversed issues, with this online/automatic payments stuff.
09:16:38 <fission> well I was there, and the cheque was ready.. they could have just handed it to me
09:16:45 <PoppaVic> yep
09:16:51 <fission> hm, once bitten...
09:17:29 <PoppaVic> It's a world diff if you have a check/bill with one date, and the Mail stamps it with ANOTHER date that you can take to court.
09:18:15 <PoppaVic> Someday, yeah... We'll return to nice and traceable.
09:19:32 <PoppaVic> ..and maybe we'll even get some judges to rape the fuckers - be they feds and postal or billing from the firms or both.
09:20:31 <PoppaVic> fission: have you followed the assorted news about <whomever> and "service charges"? It's fun.
09:21:42 <PoppaVic> I'm becoming a firm beliver in "cash" and <sadly> prepay/disposable.
09:21:51 <PoppaVic> "believer"
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09:23:27 <PoppaVic> hehe.. It just occured to me.. Folks compare programming to building - with great dispair... And, "Finances/Accounting/Banking" makes the former look strong as a tree.
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09:41:02 <Zarutian> programing is like constructing a clock albeit complex one that is also affected by other inputs
09:43:19 <Quartus> Programming is not construction. It's writing. It's exposition, in fact.  You're typing out an explanation of a process.
09:43:35 <Quartus> Programming is a form of communication.  
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13:14:39 <Astrobe> it's funny how often see references to Forth when reading about APL and vice
13:14:59 <Quartus> vice versa, you mean I think.
13:15:17 <Quartus> The wikipedia says APL was an influence on Forth, but that's the only place I've ever seen that mentioned.  I've never seen Moore say so.
13:15:28 <Quartus> He does cite his exposure to Lisp as an influence.
13:15:31 <Astrobe> http://www.vector.uk.org/archive/v222/ed222.htm
13:16:00 <Quiznos> i have never seen an apl->forth link either
13:16:29 <Quartus> APL was first proposed in '57, so it's possible from that perspective.
13:16:46 <Quiznos> then ask Chuck if he knew of APL back then
13:17:36 <Astrobe> I think both languages share the "hoax" of being write-only
13:17:49 <Quartus> APL more deservedly so, as it uses special symbols.
13:18:01 <Quiznos> apl isnt WO, it's more fp pre-fp
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13:19:52 <Quartus> That link fails here, Astrobe.
13:21:23 <Astrobe> http://www.vector.org.uk   "Editorial" link on the left.
13:22:04 <Astrobe> ah, it was .org.uk, not uk.org
13:22:27 <Quiznos> dysliaex?
13:24:10 <Quartus> That works.
13:24:58 <Astrobe> Quiznos: atcaully, a rnecet sutdy has sohw taht teh odrer of the ltetres in wrods naelry dno't crae.
13:25:22 <Astrobe> it's just harder to typr! :)
13:25:58 <Quiznos> yea yea sure sure
13:26:03 <Quiznos> that's old knew
13:26:05 <Quiznos> sknews
13:26:36 <Astrobe> I didn't knew until recently. It amazed me.
13:26:37 <Quiznos> actually, Astrobe you messed up the premise of the paper
13:27:02 <Quiznos> the premise is that the mind can recognise a words with all but the first and final letters tranposed
13:27:29 <Astrobe> yea, that's why a wrote nearly.
13:28:14 <Quiznos> so i cn tpye waht eevr i wnat adn yuo cna sllit rdea it, enev fi teh slat and rsitf ettersl rea meovd
13:28:31 <Quiznos> when you read it fast enough, the mind also inserts missing words
13:28:42 <Quiznos> ie, sllit for still
13:28:55 <Quiznos> it's something to have fun iwth on the net
13:29:03 <Quiznos> where postings can be fst and furios
13:29:06 <Astrobe> and it works even if it's not in your native language.
13:29:15 <Quiznos> well that would be alittle tricklier
13:29:36 <Astrobe> I garantee you
13:30:47 <Quiznos> ok so forth
13:30:58 <Quartus> It works for a very simple reason, but if you stretch it too far it stops working.
13:31:03 <Quiznos> Astrobe you know any lisp?
13:31:07 <Quiznos> true
13:31:19 <Quiznos> lisp concepts?
13:31:30 <Astrobe> I took a look at Scheme, Quizno
13:31:35 <Quiznos> +s
13:31:42 <Quiznos> :)
13:31:52 <Quiznos> but do you grasp the concepts?
13:32:16 <Astrobe> I think I do. I didn't practice.
13:32:23 <Quiznos> ok
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20:46:05 <snowrichard> hi
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