00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.24
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01:37:09 <astecp> 352
01:37:26 <Quartus> Too high, guess again.
01:37:31 <astecp> wait. this isn't mutt.
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05:50:08 <PoppaVic> hmm... poop-doodle.
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06:37:42 <k4jcw> Please, Lord, let the spoon flip.
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07:10:07 <feoh> Folks.  Anyone here use DragonForth for the Palm?
07:18:22 <Quiznos> not i
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07:18:43 <feoh> Which Forth do you guys run?
07:19:04 <PoppaVic> gforth, ficl
07:19:08 <Quiznos> eforthl
07:19:20 <PoppaVic> I can't manage to _build_ PFE
07:19:59 <PoppaVic> as a general rule, use Gforth to begin - under most systems... It's the FIG successor.
07:20:51 <Quiznos> pfe is fig?
07:21:20 <PoppaVic> no, PFE is a german-dude's tool for his own shit, that has become fairly popular.
07:21:29 <Quiznos> ah
07:21:51 <PoppaVic> he made it source-avail, but the autoshit just fails.
07:22:29 <PoppaVic> I've used it before, and it's OK - maybe a notch better than Gforth in places.
07:22:30 <Quiznos> yea, i'm not fond of autotools either
07:23:14 <PoppaVic> My entire life-goal has become a system that seems forthish, uses C, and fucks autoshit.
07:23:26 <Quiznos> heh
07:24:05 <Quiznos> i've been thinking that loading of forth-style binaries would be easier on kernel-malloced 4k boundaries
07:24:08 <Quiznos> and saving too
07:24:49 <PoppaVic> I can't puzzle that
07:25:05 <PoppaVic> oh.. you mean the PCODE
07:25:24 <Quiznos> the compiled code
07:25:29 <Quiznos> part of dictionary
07:25:53 <PoppaVic> binaries are one of two things: compiled-local or compiled-supercode requiring a linker.
07:26:05 <Quiznos> forth only
07:26:13 <PoppaVic> doesn't matter
07:26:30 <PoppaVic> somewhere, somehow, there is a loader and a linker.
07:26:40 <Quiznos> (load)
07:26:48 * PoppaVic sighs
07:27:12 <PoppaVic> I can at least accept that ASCII inputs are useable.
07:40:07 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: oh, btw: often the loader and linker are either/both interpreter and compiler ;-)
07:43:11 <Quiznos> ok
07:44:06 <PoppaVic> Hehe.. They just started a parallel debate in ##C
07:45:36 <PoppaVic> I think a major part of my efforts is in trying to ascertain where a "klass" is distinct from an "instance" and why.. I've been beating this dummy-file for over a week.
07:47:02 <Quiznos> wouldnt a klass be after a `new()'
07:47:08 <PoppaVic> I've about concluded that a "klass" is like a type/void* and "numbers" are what the entire universe suffers.
07:47:08 <Quiznos> or is it before?
07:47:50 <PoppaVic> I'm trying to minimize externalized funcs - a lot of shit seems to be properties
07:47:59 <Quiznos> k
07:48:37 <PoppaVic> At some point you've a "thing" and need to rely on overloaded or inherited or unavail calls.
07:49:59 <PoppaVic> 1024 can be a plain unsigned, a float, an Xt or any other thing... What should interpret the value "1024"
07:50:23 <Quiznos> the programmer needing that value on the stack.
07:50:31 <PoppaVic> there is no real value "1024" it's a token based on a [sub]string
07:51:39 <PoppaVic> so, worst case: every char is just a value/number pushed to the stack- when and how do you stop?
07:52:24 <PoppaVic> is that char ASCII, ebcdic or a WCHAR (unishit)?
07:52:36 <PoppaVic> wait... who pushes what and how?
07:53:02 <PoppaVic> worse: who pops what, how and where?
07:53:42 <PoppaVic> I suspect you begin to see the assorted issues.
07:55:03 <PoppaVic> I have this really NASTY feeling that I need to write a universal parser and assembler (to somewhere) and then get above it.
07:55:32 <PoppaVic> 'scuse: lexer AND parser
07:55:50 <PoppaVic> or the lexers are stacked.. or the parsers....
07:57:29 <PoppaVic> IOW... Some goddamned generic-machine and a language that can interpret even compiling - but doesn't reflect any specific machine - and is "portable"
07:58:21 <PoppaVic> it's even worse to contemplate when you want to support OO (not OOP)
08:08:13 <Quiznos> well, if you're gonna write another parser, then you're leaving the realm and kingdom of Forth and doing something different.  is that what you want to do?
08:09:15 <Quiznos> perhaps you've gone too far into meta- of what you're wanting to do and you've lost sight of your purpose?
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08:09:34 <Quiznos> walk towards the light
08:09:44 <Quiznos> crap, you quit?  hold on
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08:09:57 <Quiznos> well, if you're gonna write another parser, then you're leaving the realm and kingdom of Forth and doing something different.  is that what you want to do?
08:10:01 <Quiznos> perhaps you've gone too far into meta- of what you're wanting to do and you've lost sight of your purpose?
08:10:20 <PoppaVic> goddamned isp
08:10:26 <Quiznos> nods
08:11:11 <PoppaVic> I suspect it's the idea of lexer, parser, interpreter, compiler that is the boggle.. I'm seeing how deep I can prove it.
08:11:19 <Quiznos> ok
08:12:01 <PoppaVic> It sure seems to fuck up HARD on dstack, input, lex, parse, compile and interp
08:12:32 <PoppaVic> I think it even hits rocks on "Numbers"
08:12:40 <PoppaVic> or "Tokens"
08:13:40 <PoppaVic> ..I believe we come back to Literals and strings and vectors/func-ptr and the common Dstack
08:13:53 <PoppaVic> ..oh, and "interpreter"
08:14:50 <PoppaVic> Regardless of "mode" (state), you STILL need to interpret and likely even "step"
08:15:15 <Quiznos> so, that's a compile-time event, interpretation.  
08:15:24 <PoppaVic> I begin to ponder what those both mean
08:15:51 <PoppaVic> well, what about immediates - that are "gather-time"?
08:16:03 <Quiznos> maybe instead of "interpret" say/think runtime
08:17:58 <PoppaVic> I'm beginning to believe, yes, there are too many shortcuts and conveniences too low. We seem to always be talking "gathering" (what) and interpret (immediate) and compile (for some other interpreter) delayed and "execute" (when, who, what, how?)
08:19:18 <PoppaVic> I've seen for years that "a word" is simple, and a lot of engines support that. PRE/POSTfix is a lot harder.. And maybe flex too many rules too far.
08:19:24 <Quiznos> perhaps that ``too low'' is a function of your choice of implementation-language instead of forth-characteristics?
08:20:07 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: nah, I can leap all over and do diddly to foo - but that FOO and the "diddly" seems to be the issue.
08:20:18 <Quiznos> why?
08:20:32 <feoh> ciao
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08:21:49 <PoppaVic> I personally believe that the lexers and compilers are Objects.. I'm just trying to figure out the minimal sets and where whom (instance) would do what-to/with what.
08:22:35 <Quiznos> min sets of what?
08:22:50 <PoppaVic> Lotsa' folks want me to switch to Lisp (variant). BUT, you still come back to the OS/platform/assembler (variants)
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08:23:32 <PoppaVic> there is binary data, fine - and we already know we can speak of netwise or local.
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08:24:47 <PoppaVic> there is also code: calls, dlopen-refs, etc - Too much seems to predicate a working OS/platform of a state/mode before we get to Forths, Lisps or C
08:25:33 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: I can't even accept dir/path/file w/o some basics.
08:26:12 <Quiznos> forth has a very low initial TCO but it appears that you're trying to build or design emacs without an engine 
08:26:25 <PoppaVic> adding dosish drives and backslashes just strikes me as an interface.
08:26:31 <Quiznos> of cours it is
08:26:39 <JasonWoof> total cost of ownership?
08:26:50 <Quiznos> yes, i mean, start-up cost
08:26:51 <PoppaVic> well, then the problem is a baseline.
08:27:32 * JasonWoof goes back to swearing at his computer for loosing track of his previous irssi session
08:27:58 <Quiznos> have you got a running engine yet?
08:28:06 <PoppaVic> Folks hot for Java or Retroforth or "asm" are STILL skipping some stages... I'm trying to resolve a fist of them
08:28:28 <Quiznos> a car cant be truly tested until after it's been built 
08:28:31 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: hehe.. irssi?? you poor llama ;-)
08:28:42 <Quiznos> computer simulation is not real.
08:28:58 <Quiznos> truly be ...
08:29:29 <PoppaVic> a car is built of PORTABLE parts - no. I'm still trying to ascertain which, how and why
08:29:54 <Quiznos> do you have a working engine yet?
08:30:00 <PoppaVic> Further, the car has an "environment" and "space"
08:30:24 <PoppaVic> no, and I won't - until I can "classify" a load more and better
08:30:35 <Quiznos> ok
08:30:38 <Quiznos> i gotta go out
08:30:42 <Quiznos> ttyl
08:31:22 <PoppaVic> Working code? yeah.. Engine? no - odd how folks want a doc or an engine, but can't see the rest of the issues.
08:32:04 <JasonWoof> huh... I assumed Quiznos was talking to somebody else
08:32:40 <JasonWoof> but from my logs it looks... oh riiiigh. poppavic
08:32:44 <JasonWoof> nm
08:35:25 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: yeah.. I may need an octet/char engine.
08:37:19 <PoppaVic> worse, I may need to run top-down instead of bottom-up - even allowing for Objects
08:39:29 <PoppaVic> To lex and such, a "token" is an object - but that seems to be a universe different in asm and C
08:40:01 <PoppaVic> basically, "who decides what is a token that can become an object?"
08:41:53 <PoppaVic> I'm even having issues with interpret - why the hell are we deciding between number and word-that-isn't-a-number? In the order lookup versus strtol/sscanf?
08:42:43 <PoppaVic> It's weird, and we are all suffering "expectations" all over the place.
08:46:03 <PoppaVic> BUT, it sure seems like we need a really simple-minded lexer to start off the Ball. And those lexed strings need to do a variety of unfriendly-to-yacc "rules" - sooo, we need a character baseline, and a word, string, <whatever> extension - all based on a "LEXER" aka - get/reject&run/reset&get "interpreter"
08:47:05 <PoppaVic> characters, mapping, lookup, etc
08:49:21 <PoppaVic> or, for purists: octets>filter(transliterate)>interpret/compile.
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08:53:29 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: either we are running a program that compiles literals, or we are running a (slower) interpreter - or a combination of the above using pipes or files/devices// But something, somewhere is running FOO against BAR (data)... It's not pretty and it doesn't make anyone "happy"
08:54:20 <PoppaVic> OK, I give, for today - stay well, folks
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08:55:40 * fission lets his eyes uncross
09:12:54 <k4jcw> Does he really have ANY idea what he's talking about?  He sounds like someone who read a book.
09:13:17 <fission> I'd just like to state for the record that I did try and utterly failed to understand
09:14:03 <k4jcw> I wonder how many " keys he replaces per year.
09:14:26 <fission> never mind " keys, we're probably talking entire keyboards
09:14:36 <k4jcw> Point.
09:15:15 <fission> but, as my grandmother was fond of saying, talk is cheap -- so when he has something that demonstrates his ideas, maybe it'll make more sense
09:15:33 <fission> or any sense
09:16:45 <k4jcw> The problem with these highly idealized systems is that they never actually get written, because they're too busy refining their idealizations.
09:17:28 <k4jcw> Whereas Factor isn't perfect, but it runs.  isForth isn't perfect, but it runs.  My forth is far from perfect, but it runs.
09:18:02 <fission> right
09:18:05 <fission> whatever works
09:25:59 <k4jcw> I would say he's a 'bot, but the output is too random.
09:29:50 <fission> maybe he's got a hardware RNG
09:35:07 <JasonWoof> I have poppavic on /ignore because it's a total waste of time to try to understand him, and I was frequently getting annoyed by it
09:35:15 <JasonWoof> I'm hoping others will join me
09:35:25 <JasonWoof> only downside is occationally I get confused, as above
09:36:02 <JasonWoof> usually it's pretty obvious when he's arround because 5/6 of the messages are people saying "no. I said x"
09:36:11 <JasonWoof> and "what?"
09:36:16 <JasonWoof> and "what do you mean x"
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09:38:17 <k4jcw> What I'd like in a /ignore is where it says "<PoppaVic> ..." so I know he spoke, but I don't have to read it.
09:38:46 <k4jcw> And if there are two or more statements back to back from a /ignore'd person, it would collapse them to one ...
09:39:07 <JasonWoof> ooh!
09:39:09 <JasonWoof> that would be very cool
09:40:30 <JasonWoof> maybe I should check for an irssi plugin
09:40:43 <JasonWoof> I hear there are a rediculous quantity of irssi plugins
09:41:01 <JasonWoof> but I was quite dissapointed that there isn't one that puts quit messages in private chat windows
09:41:25 <fission> JasonWoof: if you find one, please let me know
09:41:26 <JasonWoof> ie if I'm /msg chatting with you in a private window, and you quit, the private window doesn't tell me that
09:41:35 <JasonWoof> it tells me when you come back on, but not when you leave
09:41:51 <fission> my irssi puts quit messages in query windows ...
09:42:04 <fission> but not rejoins
09:42:27 <JasonWoof> oh... maybe I got that wrong
09:42:32 <fission> hehe
09:42:40 <fission> yeah I would also like it to inform me when a person joins
09:42:42 <JasonWoof> anyway, point being you can't tell if they are on or not
09:42:43 <fission> there is /notify isn't there?
09:43:00 <fission> but I wonder if it would appear in window 1 instead of in the query window
09:46:38 <JasonWoof> fission: I put in my notes to let you know if I write that plugin
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10:37:11 <fission> JasonWoof: cool :D
11:03:37 <Quartus> Hey.
11:03:55 <fission> hi Quartus 
11:08:06 <Quartus> What's up?
11:12:29 <fission> not much... just at work, relieving professors emerti of their computing woes
11:12:30 <fission> ahaha
11:13:10 * Quiznos ponders "relieving"
11:13:58 <Quiznos> i got nothin
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13:53:05 <slava> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15223
14:18:16 <Quartus__> Nostalgia improves things. I used GEOS on the 64. Attractive and ambitious, but slow, and prone to crashing.
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14:19:42 <fission> JasonWoof: I've started writing that plugin
14:19:46 <fission> JasonWoof: it's deceptively easy heh
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14:45:55 <JasonWoof> fission: very cool
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14:53:05 <fission> well I got the "deceptively" part right
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14:57:43 <JasonWoof> eh?
14:57:51 <slava> hey JasonWoof 
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14:59:04 <fission> so far I've succeeded in making irssi dump core... ;-)
15:00:10 <JasonWoof> ahh
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15:01:01 <JasonWoof> we scetched out what it needs to do at some point. lets see if I remember
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15:01:50 <JasonWoof> when someone joins a channel: check all the windows for that server, and see if that nick is in any of the other channels. if not look for a query window for her and add a notice
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15:03:02 <JasonWoof> it will give false positives sometimes (if someone leaves the last channel you are both in and then joins again without quitting) but I don't see any way around that
15:03:35 <JasonWoof> well actually I do, but it requires storing an additional bit of information in the query window
15:04:07 <JasonWoof> ie a flag saying if a quit message has been displayed since the last join message
15:04:16 <JasonWoof> unless... maybe it's possible to check that yourself
15:05:07 <fission> er I'm confused
15:05:16 <fission> I was planning to just add a signal hook on "message public"
15:05:17 <fission> heh
15:07:18 <JasonWoof> message?
15:07:32 <fission> er weren't we discussing replacing privmsgs with ... ?
15:07:36 <JasonWoof> I want it to happen when they connect
15:07:43 <JasonWoof> oh
15:07:46 <JasonWoof> oh
15:07:47 <JasonWoof> oh
15:07:49 <fission> ahahahaha
15:07:56 <fission> I think we were talking about two different things?
15:08:02 <JasonWoof> hep
15:08:05 <JasonWoof> yep
15:08:13 <JasonWoof> I thought you were writing the other plugin
15:08:19 <JasonWoof> to put join messages in query windows
15:08:32 <fission> oh heh
15:08:34 <fission> that would be useful too
15:08:56 <JasonWoof> the ... one should be much easier to write
15:09:07 <JasonWoof> _should_ be
15:09:22 <fission> yeah
15:09:28 <fission> I think the docs are outdated, though
15:09:49 <JasonWoof> last time I wanted to do something tricky with irssi I figured it would be quicker to hack the source
15:10:21 <JasonWoof> I wanted to grad the activity display thing and save it to an external file/pipe
15:11:27 <JasonWoof> this thing: [Act: 3,4,5,6,7]
15:11:29 <fission> ahh
15:11:37 <fission> yeah I'm much more comfortable with C than perl
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15:11:39 <fission> sigh
15:11:52 <JasonWoof> so instead of learning about how irssi does things, and finding out if I can do that in a plugin, and how
15:12:02 <JasonWoof> I just looked through the source and found the code that renders it
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15:12:35 <JasonWoof> didn't really take that long
15:12:58 <JasonWoof> and now I have the white and pink things from my irssi activity thing in my status bar on all desktops
15:13:23 <JasonWoof> now I don't forget about irssi for 3 hours at a streach so much
15:14:41 <fission> hehe
15:14:43 <fission> cool
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15:29:53 <virl> hiho..
15:29:59 <slava> hi virl
15:31:27 <virl> I don't hate ans forth, I only find it not ideal. also I don't see the point why another forth which does some things better shouldn't be used.
15:32:04 <slava> well i don't like ans forth either, that's why i'm not implementing one :)
15:33:12 <Quartus> It continues to impress me, though I'm not making any claim that it's somehow 'ideal', whatever that means.  I just plugged Eckert's ANS Forth floating-point emulation into Retro's interpret loop, and now it has floating-point, as if by magic.
15:33:55 <virl> it had before that a support for floating point 
15:34:23 <Quartus> If it did at some point, this release doesn't.
15:34:53 <virl> it's not a fix part of retro, it's more an extension file
15:35:26 <Quartus> It's not apparent anywhere in the build tree or documentation for 9.2.9.  As far as I know it doesn't ship with any such support.
15:35:55 <virl> that's what I like about retro and what I dislike about ans, it has a lot of words per default. I think modularization is good.
15:36:20 <slava> i don't think there's a problem with having a lot of words as long as the beginner only has to learn a few to get started.
15:36:26 <Quartus> rf 9.2.9 has 251 words defined at startup.
15:36:40 <segher> you can do ans with 40 or 60 or so
15:37:32 <virl> as I was a beginner of forth, too much words in a forth system confused me.
15:37:46 <Quartus> In fact a compliant system would have to have all 133 CORE words, but you could certainly provide many of them in loadable source.
15:38:32 <virl> because when you learn some basic words like ." or dup and so on then you have a lot of other words which are sometimes not good documented.
15:38:59 <virl> btw. which problems does forth have in webdev?
15:39:01 <Quartus> With my ANS layer loaded, there are 213 Standard words, which is in fact fewer than retro starts with by itself.
15:39:50 <Quartus> Actually I think that's 211, I haven't tested the retro LOAD and BLOCK to see if they comply.
15:40:48 <Quartus> So, 40 fewer words.  Any other arguments you'd like to put forward? :)
15:41:02 <virl> ok..
15:41:10 <slava> factor has 6182 words, and i'm not particularly concerned
15:41:24 <virl> you aren't? I would
15:41:38 <slava> why? a beginner has no reason to fiddle with the gui toolkit, cocoa binding, etc.
15:41:40 <Quartus> slava, nor am I; the number of words in a system is irrelevant, but if virl's going to float it as an argument, it's easy to knock down.
15:41:55 <slava> the set of core words one uses is about the same as forth.
15:42:03 <slava> maybe a few more because i have array data types instead of @ !
15:42:14 <virl> that's not arguments that are your opinions
15:42:35 <Quartus> 211 being 40 less than 251 is not a hard opinion to defend.
15:42:54 <slava> if i strip out the compiler, GUI and developer tools i could get factor down to about 500 words
15:43:12 <slava> you'd just get a terminal listener, data types and that's about it
15:43:30 <virl> I give up, that's hopeless to discuss with you.
15:43:47 <slava> i plan on making the bootstrap modular so this can be done
15:46:16 <Quartus> F-PC fires up with 1523 words.
15:49:33 <Quartus> It's a late-model F83 derivative.  Gforth (Standard, obviously) starts up with 1548 words in the current wordlist.
15:49:49 <Quartus> I'm not sure these are all apples, or even all fruit, but there it is.
15:49:51 <slava> f-pc has more features than gforth.
15:49:56 <slava> online help, text editor, etc
15:50:04 <Quartus> Yes, it's fancy.  Comes up in color and everything.
15:50:20 <Quartus> Has a floating display showing the search order.
15:50:30 <slava> yup
15:51:16 <Quartus> Win32Forth (which I believe is by the same people) comes up with nearly 4857 words in the dictionary, of which it's happy to display 2364 in response to WORDS.
15:51:28 <Quiznos> wow
15:51:43 <slava> word counts are irrelevant, as long as WORDS is not the only source of documentation in your system
15:51:45 <Quartus> It has a WORDS that takes a substring argument.
15:52:25 <Quartus> slava, I completely agree.  Virl's argument was that he preferred retroforth specifically to an ANS Forth because it has fewer words; it's a foolish argument, but it's also wrong.
15:52:56 <slava> its also important to be able to build a stripped down system, for turnkey applications and embedded use
15:53:09 <slava> but having fewer words and features is not an advantage, i think
15:53:28 <Quartus> Indeed.  I'm a fan of recursive headerless extraction, for turnkeying.
16:02:18 <virl> it's not foolish
16:03:30 <virl> sry, but because of that I need to call you an idiot. you don't have respect for other views. 
16:05:49 <TreyB> *sigh*
16:06:33 <virl> in fact most ans forth systems are overbloan and so your simple comparison doesn't work for retro. retro has lesser words than most of ans forth systems.
16:06:54 <Quartus> Hi TreyB.
16:07:22 <virl> and why is lesser better? because it's simpler for people to understand the system.
16:08:48 <TreyB> Why write prose when poetry will do?
16:09:35 <slava> if depends if one of your goals is to have a system so simple that people can very quickly understand the entire workings of it
16:09:45 <virl> btw. lesser words doesn't mean lesser features that is also a stupid conclusion, because the things which need to be built into the system can be count at your hand.
16:09:59 <virl> for the rest is modularization the way to go.
16:10:11 <Quartus> Welcome to "Arguing with Virl!"
16:10:36 <virl> welcome, to proving that Quartus is arrogant and isn't tolerant.
16:11:16 <Quartus> Only one of us is calling people names, virl.  Please tone it down.
16:12:00 <virl> no, not only one of us. you are calling my name, idiot.
16:12:31 <slava> do you know what the expression "calling people names" means?
16:12:37 <slava> or is virl an insult?
16:12:43 <slava> is this why everytime somebody talks to you you get pissed?
16:12:46 <TreyB> Quartus comes by his arrogance via years of experience shipping commercial Forth systems.  That buys him some respect in my book.
16:12:53 <virl> slava, I'm a native speaker? no I'm not.
16:13:06 <Quartus> Virl, in fact I have not called you an idiot, despite what some might consider ample provocation.  Please stop calling people names in this channel.
16:13:10 <slava> english is not my first language either, but I still manage to avoid random insults
16:13:22 <virl> arrogance is something I won't pay, I will piss on such people. 
16:13:50 <fission> JasonWoof: good thing this plugin is almost done
16:13:54 <fission> ahahaha
16:14:01 <virl> arrogant persons are not worth to be on this world.
16:14:49 <virl> I'd like to be treated as a human and not as stupid kid. stupid arrogant assholes!
16:15:12 <slava> then quit talking like a stupid kid
16:15:14 <Quartus> Virl, your language and manner are inappropriate.  Please stop it immediately.
16:15:32 <slava> nobody called you stupid, or anything like that.
16:17:03 <virl> btw. I didn't started this discussion, you did, you stupid assholes.
16:17:11 --- mode: Quartus set -v virl
16:17:29 <virl> 'No, virl, doesn't need be right' not in a thousand of years.
16:17:37 --- mode: Quartus set +b *!*@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at
16:17:54 --- kick: virl was kicked by Quartus (Inappropriate behaviour)
16:18:40 <TreyB> The -v thing only works with +m channels.  Then you'd have to +v the rest of us, which gets tiresome.
16:19:09 <Quartus> Yes, sorry, I'm new at this.  I hate to have to resort to a ban, but I think he needs a time-out if all he's going to do is type insults into the channel.
16:19:23 <TreyB> I agree.
16:19:56 <Quartus> I did ask him to stop several times.
16:46:51 <Quartus> I get a tremendous kick out of being able to compile a Standard Forth floating-point emulation package under retro, tie it into the interpreter, and suddenly have floating-point support.
16:47:58 <segher> why ban if you can kick -- you can only ban once, but you can kick many times ;-)
16:48:23 <segher> got an url to that fp package?
16:48:35 <Quartus> segher, I'm sure he'd have bounced back on with twice the vituperative force.  Hopefully he'll calm down in the interval.
16:48:41 <Quartus> It's at tinyboot.com.
16:49:03 <segher> ah great, thanks
16:49:18 <Quartus> He just sent me a bugfix, don't know if it's reflected there. Let me check.
16:49:37 <segher> it's fun to watch him bounce back -- unless you take it personal.  you shouldn't :-)
16:50:22 <Quartus> If he's just going to spray foul language into the channel, I don't myself find that particularly fun.
16:50:28 <Quartus> hey, tinyboot.com is suddenly unavailable.
16:50:49 <segher> it's some cybersquat thing
16:51:12 <Quartus> Since, like, yesterday.
16:51:15 <Quartus> Weird.
16:51:29 <Quartus> Ok, well, here's a link to the last-but-one bugfix: http://web.archive.org/web/20050217164958/tinyboot.com/float.txt
16:52:13 <segher> long live the wayback machine :-)
16:52:26 <Quartus> I can send you the latest & greatest if you'd like.
16:52:47 <segher> ah, it's not ieee fp
16:52:57 <Quartus> no, something simpler.
16:53:05 <segher> no thanks, i just want to get the feel of it
16:53:09 <fission> vax fp is leeter
16:54:37 <Quartus> I make no particular claims of greatness for this emulation, but it's Standard, compiles without a hiccup under the retro ANS layer, and it works. :)
16:55:51 <segher> good, good, and good :-)
16:56:31 <Quartus> I hook the F# recognizer into the fallback routine of retro's interpreter.
17:05:51 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-53-74-48.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth
17:12:08 <vatic> Quartus: Eckert was trying to get someone to volunteer to host his site at the beginning of the Summer. I stepped up but he never replied. Guess he went with a shaky solution...
17:12:30 <Quartus> Maybe so. Maybe it's some billing issue.  
17:13:02 <vatic> Quartus: register.com says the name's for sale. Any takers? ;-(
17:13:23 <Quartus> ah, could be that simple, expired domain name dealie.
17:13:24 --- nick: aggieben_ -> aggieben
17:14:24 <vatic> Quartus: expired 08-18-2006...
17:14:31 <Quartus> That'll do it.
17:24:15 <fission> JasonWoof: http://www.ldx.ca/tmp/mute.pl
17:24:51 <Quartus> Come on, "Tyler Mitchell" sounds like the fake name of an action hero to me.
17:24:52 <Quartus> :)
17:24:58 <fission> ahahaha
17:25:20 <Quartus> I've seen Joe Don Baker as "Mitchell".  His first name was *clearly* Tyler, it's all coming together. :)
17:25:31 <fission> clearly :D
17:25:58 <fission> the next step is to merge multiple lines together
17:26:24 --- join: docl (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #forth
17:28:39 <Quartus> fission, that looks handy; that way you can see what's prompting a given response.
17:29:16 <fission> yeah.. it was JasonWoof's suggestion
17:29:48 <fission> the only problem is that if they type three or four lines together, I want it to condense that into one single ... line
17:30:08 <Quartus> Does it make multiple ... lines now?
17:30:10 <fission> yeah
17:30:26 <Quartus> I think that's probably a feature; you still can't see what they're saying, but it lets you know if they're spouting off at length.
17:30:55 <fission> hehe
17:31:06 <Quartus> I'd be inclined to make it say 'blah' instead of ... :
17:31:08 <fission> I guess I could make that an option ("collapse_babble" or something)
17:31:40 <fission> hmmm I wonder what happens if it's blank
17:31:45 <fission> then it would appear as a blank line, maybe?
17:32:00 <Quartus> Try it.
17:32:42 --- join: fission_ (n=fission@69.60.114.33) joined #forth
17:32:57 <fission> hmmm let's see
17:33:02 <fission> yeah :D
17:33:05 <fission> it shows up as blank lines
17:33:11 <Quartus> heh
17:33:12 <fission> that could be even better
17:33:32 --- quit: fission_ (Client Quit)
17:33:38 <Quartus> I think I'd like one that replaced all the words with 'blah'. 
17:33:49 <fission> ahahaha
17:34:08 <fission> s/[^ ]/blah/g
17:34:14 <Quartus> yeah
17:34:28 <Quartus> That'd be great.  I may have to switch to whatever client is required. :)
17:34:54 <fission> haha
17:37:07 --- join: fission_ (n=fission@69.60.114.33) joined #forth
17:37:29 <fission> well now... let's see what we got
17:37:40 <fission> that didn't work at all! ahaha
17:37:47 --- quit: fission_ (Client Quit)
17:39:35 <Quartus> vatic, I looked at some of those links.  I played with coroutines under Forth a bit a few months ago, didn't come up with anything particularly applicable for me.
18:21:23 <vatic> Quartus: seems as though Samuel A. Falvo II has done some work with them...
18:21:44 <slava> factor has coroutines in a contributed library
18:22:00 <Quartus> One Quartus Forth user wrote a couple of words for playing with coroutines, too.  It's possible to write some very odd code with them.
18:22:22 <vatic> Quartus: there's a dialog with Michael Gassanenko on clf from 2002 that I haven't completely digested...
18:22:41 <vatic> slava: Hey thanks for this!
18:22:55 <Quartus> I recall many of his dialogs being quite indigestible. :)
18:23:12 <vatic> Quartus: Ah... 
18:24:01 <vatic> Quartus: I have a specific interest for musical sequences. Maybe I'm mis-specifying what I'm looking for...
18:25:32 <Quartus> Maybe, as I don't draw a mental connection between what you've been discussing with musical sequences.
18:26:18 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2
18:33:28 <vatic> Quartus: here's a link to a discussion of SuperCollider's use of Streams: http://tinyurl.com/hwlne
18:33:50 <vatic> Quartus: they're in rtf. about 5 files altogether...
18:34:39 <vatic> Quartus: I know SuperCollider is object-oriented, but maybe some of this could be done as state machines?
18:35:37 <Quartus> I think most anything can be done as state machines; whether it's easier or not, I can't say. :)
18:36:49 <vatic> Quartus: Well, I'll keep studying/looking. Thanks for your interest, though!
18:37:39 <vatic> Quartus: I think Python's iterator/generator facility comes closest to what I have in mind.
18:37:59 <Quartus> I think at least some of it is a better fit for strongly typed systems.
18:38:22 <vatic> Quartus: Found a scary C implementation in Finkel's book "Advanced Programming Language Design."
18:38:48 <vatic> Quartus: could you expand a little on that?
18:38:57 <Quartus> Just checked my personal library for that one, but I don't think I have it.
18:39:37 <vatic> Quartus: It's not that great a book. Pretty broad brush, more excitement than hard science...
18:39:47 <Quartus> Sure. Writing a general-purpose iterator means adaptability to different types of things you might be iterating over.
18:41:05 <vatic> Quartus: Ah! yes, so a language like Smalltalk is perfectly suited for writing general routine that iterate over anythng from  numbers to other routines?
18:41:15 <vatic> that can iterate
18:42:00 <Quartus> I'd expect that's a simpler task when the iterator can query what it's iterating to determine its type.
18:43:19 <vatic> Quartus: What interests me is creating a routine that generates a sequence of numbers, let's say...
18:43:49 <vatic> Quartus: ...and calling the routine causes it to emit the next number in the sequence.
18:44:38 <slava> that can be modelled as a stream object
18:44:44 <vatic> Quartus: and it will keep generating numbers of the sequence until it reaches it's end (if it's not infinite)
18:44:46 <Quartus> Sure.  Coroutines would let you do that, though from my experience they're a bit of a pain to code.  Depending on your generator, it may be simpler to model it differently.
18:45:14 <slava> i use co-routines to implement a graphical interpreter
18:45:34 <slava> the readln word pulls input, and the gui event loop pushes it
18:45:42 <vatic> Quartus, slava: my data type would likely all be the same: a 16-bit number representing a single sound sample.
18:45:54 <slava> other than this i haven't used co-routines for anything
18:46:46 <vatic> slava: is this written in Factor?
18:46:49 <slava> yes
18:48:03 <vatic> slava: must be cool to have a Wikipedia article about your language... :-)
18:51:25 <fission> Quartus: there, redid it with hashes ;-)
18:51:42 <Quartus> the muting script, you mean?
18:51:45 <fission> yeah heh
19:04:48 <k4jcw> I wonder if a useful feature would be an option that will print the original message out if your nick occurs in it.  Then when he insults you, at least you know it.
19:04:57 <Quartus> heh
19:05:24 <Quartus> have it translate curses into %*#$, and slowly build a database of repeated words, and display those. :)
19:17:23 <k4jcw> I know I've translated ncurses to that, after trying to open multiple windows...
20:02:35 <vatic> Quartus, slava: http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/forthlecture6.html
20:03:37 <Quartus> Yes, that 'CO' word is the basics.  It's hard to code for, confusing to read, and crashes spectacularly when it goes wrong. :)
20:06:08 <slava> in factor co-routines save/restore the entire stack
20:07:28 <TreyB> Sounds more like user-space (or light-weight) threads.
20:07:43 <slava> yes, except objects can be passed back and forth
20:08:40 <vatic> TreyB: there's a thread on clf about co-routines that makes this point...
20:09:41 <JasonWoof> heh, I suppose if you wanted to know how much a muted person was saying, we could change the plugin so it sets every non-space character to *
20:09:56 <TreyB> heh
20:10:17 <Quartus> I like the idea of using blah for everything, unless a repeated word reaches a certain threshold, so it'd turn PoppaVic into
20:10:34 <Quartus> <PoppaVic> blah blah blah blah autoshit blah blah blah blah layers blah
20:10:38 <TreyB> LOL
20:11:14 <Quartus> <PoppaVic> blah blah forthish blah blah blah 
20:11:24 <Quartus> Actually he's kind of already there.
20:11:40 * TreyB giggles again.
20:12:49 <Quartus> Wow, there's some annoyingly uncommented code.     LATEST >FFA 8 TOGGLE
20:13:13 <Quartus> Just taking a random stab that >FFA converts whatever's in LATEST to a 'flag field address', how in blazes am I supposed to know what the '8 TOGGLE' is meant to achieve?
20:13:31 <Quiznos> toggle is the bit flipper
20:13:39 <Quartus> That's not the problem.
20:13:39 <fission> JasonWoof: yeah it's pretty easy to modify :D
20:13:56 <TreyB> WTF does bit 8 mean, though?
20:14:01 <Quartus> Exactly.
20:14:31 <fission> JasonWoof: I must thank you, actually... I'm now using this little script on more than one channel ;-)
20:14:33 <Quiznos> it would be the high sign
20:14:42 <Quiznos> [lm]sb specific
20:14:45 <Quartus> That is completely unhelpful.
20:15:14 <Quiznos> but regardless of endianness, bit 8 is always the sign on bytes
20:15:27 <fission> don't you mean bit 7? ;-)
20:15:40 <Quartus> Which means absolutely nothing in a flag field even if it was bit 7 that was being referred to.
20:15:42 <Quiznos> then it's a coding error in the original coder's mind
20:16:08 <Quiznos> if the coder meant the sign bit and counted from 1 instead of 0
20:16:15 <Quiznos> an classic off-by-1 error
20:16:21 <TreyB> Magic Numbers Considered Harmful
20:16:25 <Quartus> In fact I've figured out what the hell it's supposed to do in ciforth.  It has nothing to do with an error in his mind, or a sign bit.
20:16:33 <Quiznos> do tell
20:16:53 <Quartus> It turns a ciforth word into a prefixing word.  
20:17:13 * TreyB guessed immediate.
20:17:14 <Quiznos> meaning?
20:17:50 <TreyB> If the word shows up as the prefix to a word not in the dictionary, it calls the prefix word and passes the rest of the token as input.
20:18:01 <Quiznos> k
20:18:14 <Quiznos> so, kinda a reverse in time fixer?
20:18:19 <Quiznos> that's unforthy
20:18:23 <TreyB> So you can do stuff like $ABCD for hex, etc.
20:18:32 <Quiznos> ok
20:18:36 <fission> heh cool
20:18:38 <Quartus> It's really, really badly in need of a comment, or a name, or both.
20:18:50 <Quiznos> numeric-confusion
20:18:52 <TreyB> PREFIX-IFY
20:19:06 <Quiznos> i'd code that fdifferently
20:19:11 <Quiznos> sans magic
20:19:58 <Quartus> Anyway I managed to make that code run under the retro ans layer after carving the ci-forth-specific nonsense out of it.  This is the joy of non-standard code, having to filter through some other bozo's personal randomness to figure out what in blazes his code does.
20:20:20 <TreyB> Some forth implementations let you hook into the number conversion routines. pForth does.
20:20:58 <Quartus> You can revector the number recognizer in Quartus Forth, retro, probably Gforth too.
20:21:24 <TreyB> I added #ABCD to do the equivalent of uint32_t x = 'ABCD'; in C.
20:21:27 <Quiznos> why not just write one word that properly parses the word?
20:21:41 <Quiznos> oops
20:21:44 <Quartus> TreyB, retroforth has ' as a numeric prefix for that.  'ABCD leaves a 32-bit value on the stack.
20:21:50 <Quiznos> last "word"/number
20:22:44 <fission> http://members.aol.com/plforth/ofpong/
20:22:45 <fission> haw
20:22:57 <Quartus> Is that openforth pong? I remember that.
20:23:02 <JasonWoof> Quiznos: lol, I like your suggestions about "blah blah"
20:23:07 <fission> that's hilarious
20:23:09 <Quartus> JasonWoof, that was me.
20:23:09 <JasonWoof> I might implement that
20:23:16 <TreyB> My version does up-case conversion on letters, but it matches the wonky stuff we do with 32-bit identifiers.
20:23:21 <Quiznos> JasonWoof wrong Q
20:23:23 <Quiznos> :)
20:23:27 <fission> JasonWoof: if you do, please let me know ;-)
20:23:28 <JasonWoof> right
20:23:39 <JasonWoof> sorry, not used to having nicks with the first two letters the same
20:23:56 <TreyB> Lazy tab-completer!
20:24:05 <JasonWoof> we have a sub shop in town named quiznos
20:24:16 <JasonWoof> or quisnoz
20:24:18 <JasonWoof> or some such
20:24:28 <fission> there's one three blocks from here heh
20:24:41 <TreyB> I just assumed he like the sandwiches from there :-)
20:24:49 <Quiznos> nop
20:24:52 <fission> haha or maybe he's a spy
20:34:56 <fission> has anyone used a Forth from firmworks or codegen's smartfirmware?
20:35:12 <TreyB> Nope.
20:35:12 <JasonWoof> not I
20:37:31 <Quiznos> nor i
20:38:48 <JasonWoof> fission: http://jasonwoof.com/downloads/mute.pl.blah.diff
20:38:55 <JasonWoof> that makes it say "blah blah blah"
20:39:11 <JasonWoof> fission: also I noticed that it doesn't catch actions (/me ...)
20:39:13 <slava> PoppaVic filter?
20:39:27 <JasonWoof> it doesn't put "autoshit" and such in
20:39:50 <fission> JasonWoof: hmm I thought those were PRIVMSG as well?
20:40:01 <JasonWoof> fission: they are
20:40:13 <JasonWoof> fission: apparently irssi handles them differently
20:40:31 <fission> argh heh
20:40:57 <fission> hmmm I wonder if there's a regex so we could just replace every word separated by whitespace by 'blah'
20:41:14 <k4jcw> You know in Perl you can say $blahblah = "blah " x 40
20:41:21 <JasonWoof> you could, but you run the risk of creating an overflow
20:41:30 <JasonWoof> if their post is long and has many short words
20:41:41 <fission> well, I suppose we could simply split on whitespace, then count the number and insert that many blahs
20:41:43 <slava> ah, the perils of fixed-size buffers :)
20:41:44 <fission> heh
20:41:45 <k4jcw> Yea, but IRC will truncate it.  You won't break anything.
20:42:07 <JasonWoof> it's not getting sent over irc
20:42:15 <fission> heh
20:42:27 <JasonWoof> better to just count chars
20:42:38 <JasonWoof> devide by 5 (rounded up)
20:42:49 <slava> oh, this script is in perl.
20:42:57 <slava> i thought it was forth and you guys were worried about overflowing tib
20:42:58 <fission> JasonWoof: yeah that's a good idea, too
20:42:59 <k4jcw> Ah, you're right.  I'm used to using Net::IRC.  But still, where's the fixed buffer issue?
20:43:06 <fission> slava: hehe
20:43:41 <JasonWoof> k4jcw: the issue is I don't want to make the post longer
20:44:00 <JasonWoof> it shouldn't crash anything
20:44:19 <k4jcw> Then just use substr and trim it to the max length you want.
20:44:30 <JasonWoof> it would be pretty funny to replace a "blah" with "autoshit" at random intervals though :)
20:44:57 <JasonWoof> here's the current code I just posted: $msg = substr($blahblah, 0, length($msg));
20:46:04 <k4jcw> Why in Dogs name Larry didn't include min() and max() as intrinsics, I'll never unstand.
20:46:09 <k4jcw> understand, even.
20:46:25 <slava> i'm not a fan of perl
20:46:30 <fission> ahahahaha "autoshit"
20:46:39 <Quartus> JasonWoof, I'd want to reveal repeated non-common words so you had some vague sense of what crap he was spouting without having to read it.
20:46:50 <Quartus> Which would be identical to not running the script, now that I think about it.
20:46:54 <fission> heh
20:46:58 <fission> I think I'll leave my copy
20:46:59 <k4jcw> $msg = substr ("blah " x 40, 0, length ($msg) < 256 ? length ($msg) : 256)
20:47:07 <fission> then it will be just a blank line
20:49:19 <Quartus> vatic, got all those ciforth examples to work eventually.  How egregiously painful.
20:50:15 <vatic> Quartus: In ciForth? or something else?
20:50:26 <Quartus> In retroforth under my ans layer.
20:50:36 <vatic> Quartus: Hahahaha!
20:51:10 <vatic> Quartus: You're a trooper! You should leave the pain to me, however. :-)
20:52:23 <vatic> Anyway, gonna hit the hay. Many thanks...
20:52:37 <Quartus> Even if I had downloaded ciForth and the examples actually worked (the last one doesn't as it's written), I still wouldn't have known why.
20:52:38 <vatic> slava, you too! :-)
20:52:41 <Quartus> ok, take care :)
20:52:45 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*")
21:14:16 <Quartus> So I made these 'words' and 'find' equivalents work as coroutines.  They're clever as a cartload of monkeys, but I'm not at all sure they're simpler, faster, or easier to understand than an ordinary version would be.
21:20:18 <Quartus> It does allow you to factor out the list-traversal word and use it more than once.
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21:55:50 <fission> there... made it ignore multiple lines
21:56:02 <Quartus> Neat.
21:58:24 <Quartus> wait, I mean
21:58:27 <Quartus> blah blah blah
21:58:47 <Quartus> ...
21:58:49 <Quartus> :)
21:59:42 <Quartus> JasonWoof, simple might be to display each word from a muted person the first time it's found, but not the second, so unless they said something new, you'd never see anything but 'blah'. :)
22:00:36 <fission> ahahaha
22:00:59 <fission> so it replaces all previously-used words with blah?
22:01:07 <Quartus> Right.
22:01:09 <fission> haha
22:01:19 <fission> this could get really fancy, I see
22:01:29 <slava> what about chronic misspellers?
22:01:57 <Quiznos> slava it's call `figers of spish'
22:01:59 <Quartus> Well, it's simple, it's not perfect.  But it'd turn most people you'd as soon ignore into all-blah, while still leaving enough bits & pieces so you'd know if they brought up a new subject.
22:02:41 <fission> hehe
22:02:50 <Quiznos> bl00p;
22:02:53 <fission> well I just submitted the version I have
22:03:02 <Quartus> heck, use soundex for each word, then even misspellings would become blah. :)
22:03:25 <slava> anybody here good at icons?
22:03:47 <Quiznos> i have a book about english and it said that mispelinks are just a klass of figero-spish
22:03:49 <Quartus> You need an F for Factor? :)
22:03:58 <slava> toolbar buttons
22:04:05 <Quiznos> lotus menubar
22:04:11 <Quiznos>  /
22:06:22 <slava> sleepy time
22:06:33 <Quartus> I recommend fonts as a good source of small icons.
22:06:34 --- quit: slava ()
22:31:18 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/qywb5 | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx' by Quartus
22:31:18 --- mode: Quartus set +t
22:32:16 <Quiznos> are those Brodie urls to html or pdf pages?
22:32:26 <Quartus> There's a way to find that out. :)
22:32:32 <Quiznos> ln-s.net produces shorter urls.
22:32:40 <Quiznos> but your answer would be quicker
22:32:45 <Quartus> Turns out it won't be.
22:33:00 <Quiznos> 'yes|no' is shorter
22:33:23 <Quartus> Ok, "yes|no". Click the damn links and see what's there already.
22:33:35 <Quiznos> no!
22:33:37 <Quiznos> heh
22:33:42 <Quiznos> lol
22:33:49 <Quiznos> nuh uh cant make me
22:33:51 <Quiznos> mmm mmm mm
22:33:53 <Quiznos> lol
22:36:24 <fission> damn with my plugin that would have been one line, not six
22:36:30 * fission grins impishly
22:36:34 <Quartus> Heh.  
22:37:06 <Quartus> Figured newcomers might like some useful info instead of running headlong into PoppaVic and then running right back out.
22:37:16 <Quiznos> heh
22:38:48 <fission> haha
22:38:49 <fission> good idea
22:52:28 --- topic: set to 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects. Introduction: http://tinyurl.com/kvawv | Starting Forth: http://tinyurl.com/rm7pq | Thinking Forth: http://tinyurl.com/nsy4j | Gforth compiler: http://tinyurl.com/s8uho | ANS/ISO Forth Standard doc: http://tinyurl.com/nx7dx' by Quartus
22:52:32 <Quartus> Wrong URL for Starting Forth.
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23:56:13 <snowrichard> hi
23:56:39 <Quartus> Hi snowrichard.
23:56:50 <snowrichard> well I got moved.   I'
23:57:03 <snowrichard> am sore and tired, but everything is out of the other house and over here
23:57:37 <Quartus> It's good when it's finished :)
23:58:01 <snowrichard> it may take a week or two to go through all the boxes and put stuff up
23:58:14 <Quartus> For my stuff, it'd be more than a week :)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.08.24