00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.22 00:06:20 --- quit: AI_coder (Client Quit) 00:09:10 Did he ever mention why he's going full-tilt into converting C source to Forth without bothering to learn Forth? 00:10:00 My guess is he thinks all languages are algol-derivatives, so this one shouldn't be any harder to pick up. 00:11:22 I recall that he wandered in one day from a another channel and started learning. I don't know about his conversion business. 00:11:36 So the learning has actually begun, has it? :) 00:14:28 --- join: Quiznos (i=1000@69-168-231-199.bflony.adelphia.net) joined #forth 00:14:34 re 00:22:19 b00? 00:24:21 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 00:24:56 re Cheery 00:26:38 --- quit: fission (Remote closed the connection) 00:55:14 --- join: Cheer1 (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth 00:55:51 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:03:23 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 01:11:40 --- join: fission (n=fission@69.60.114.33) joined #forth 01:24:34 --- nick: Cheer1 -> Cheery 01:39:44 --- join: AI_coder (n=AI@ip-209-124-242-76.dynamic.eatel.net) joined #forth 01:40:01 ai 01:40:39 Anyone else wondered why their program kept going into an infinite loop after running it for more than a minute or two? 01:40:49 nop 01:41:06 I just discovered it the hard way it's called stack overflow. 01:41:13 ah 01:41:54 Must've lost at least 2 hours to it too. Oh well live and learn. 01:42:07 lol yea! 01:42:11 it happens 01:51:46 --- nick: Quiznos -> set 01:52:00 --- nick: set -> Quiznos 02:03:01 You know forth definitely kicks C's ass in development time though. 02:03:09 yep 02:03:14 . >> printf 02:03:24 lol 02:04:09 bbl 02:04:49 --- quit: AI_coder (Client Quit) 02:38:17 --- join: oxygene (n=oxygene@khepri.openbios.org) joined #forth 02:52:35 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-83-254-201.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:40:26 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:48:39 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-184-068.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:00:24 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:46:21 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool74-134.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:31:43 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 05:39:24 --- join: AI_coder (n=AI@ip-209-124-242-76.dynamic.eatel.net) joined #forth 05:40:36 Does forth provide something like a continue or next to leave a loop but not kill the loop? 05:40:56 once you leave it, it's gone 05:41:15 : contex 10 0 do while i 4 = if continue then i . loop ; 05:41:23 0 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 05:41:38 and? 05:41:49 and there is no forth equivalent? 05:42:07 see your docs for your variant 05:42:25 I've looked, I've scoured and I'm a noob. 05:43:18 there is a word, "leave", under gforth. 05:43:31 there is nothing I see like "continue" 05:43:36 me neither 05:44:00 it might be that you can use loop more than once 05:44:13 good point 05:44:48 certainly he could have used an else in that example 05:45:06 or even <> 05:45:24 But it gets complicated to extend an if then across the entire loop statement. 05:46:04 : test 0 do 4 <> if i . then loop ; 05:46:49 --- quit: AI_coder (Client Quit) 05:47:33 : test 0 do i 4 <> if i . then loop ; 05:47:50 10 test 0 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 ok 05:47:59 you probably can't just do that with every case where multiple exit points are wanted (at least not without terribly cluttering up the code) 05:48:36 If you have that problem, you probably need to factor the word a bit more. 05:49:04 I would sure hope so 05:49:22 : test2 0 do i 4 = if loop else i . loop then ; 05:49:22 *the terminal*:1: expected dest, do-dest or scope 05:49:22 : test2 0 do i 4 = if loop else i . loop then ; 05:49:41 ^^^^ 05:50:41 actually, it's likely better you can't create that spaghetti 05:52:59 LOOP resolves a do-sys on the CS stack. DO/LOOP has to come in pairs only. 05:55:14 lots of flow-control does that 05:55:48 * TreyB missed it. 05:55:59 Lots of flow-control does what? 05:56:13 they like to throw shit on the dstack and then test it, as they build the new board, etc. 05:56:21 board/word 05:57:31 otoh, I suppose you could embed your own branching-primitives 05:57:46 Yeah. I kind of like they way Forth generalized it. I don't know of any other language that lets you do that. 05:57:51 Seems like a good way to make one hell of a mess 05:58:13 "With great power comes great responsibility." -- Stan Lee 05:58:16 well, it's extensible.. 06:26:25 --- join: snowrichard (n=richard@adsl-69-155-177-158.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 06:26:29 hello 06:26:37 howdy 06:31:46 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:16:25 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:18:00 eforth's dm+ and dump are segfaulting 07:18:17 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-107.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:24:35 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 08:15:40 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@unaffiliated/herkamire) joined #forth 08:15:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:27:23 * fission stretches 08:33:21 'morning 08:37:49 howdy 08:44:33 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-251-93.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 09:17:29 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:19:22 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:35:11 --- join: EsotericMoniker (n=Esoteric@209.8.233.177) joined #forth 11:36:17 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 12:19:17 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@63.163.143.188) joined #forth 12:19:51 ok, isforth.clss.net is back up again :) 12:33:20 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 12:35:46 "Man makes motion with his hand as if clicking on something, draging " 12:35:54 dragging 12:38:55 And that's really not a very amusing "joke". 12:41:11 sure is - its in reference to the state of "software engineering" today 12:41:24 drag and drop, cut and paste, object obfuscated BULLSHIT 12:41:41 however ill fix the typo 12:41:47 Sorry dude, I just pasted it into another channel and got 3 "lame" and 1 "huh?"'s 12:42:04 they are obviously C coders 12:42:24 Actually, Perl, mostly. 12:42:30 i rest my case 12:42:41 Pffft. You know not of what you speak, my friend. 12:42:58 Perl doesn't have drag'n'drop or even real objects. 12:43:16 i got 20 years doing real time embedded control applications for a LIVING. i know every well the state of the industry 12:43:19 industry 12:43:20 In fact, I don't know of any languages that have drag'n'drop. Just the IDEs around them that support that sorta junk. 12:43:34 Newest RetroForth ANS layer. Key new addition: ENVIRONMENT? http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=151 12:43:37 --- join: swsch (n=stefan@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/swsch) joined #forth 12:43:41 Zettel's ANS bignum package compiles and runs cleanly without modification, right from the .zip. 12:45:16 Perl has its uses. I wouldn't write embedded code with it, but if you need to write a throw-down/throw-away text filter where you don't get to specify the inputs having a massive library of code to pick from sure helps. 12:45:39 Almost all languages have their uses. 12:45:41 Except Python. 12:45:45 heh 12:45:46 That's just pure distilled shit. 12:47:13 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-103-148.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:49:16 Straight from retro: big_number 123456789012345678901234567890 big_number 1234567890 big* big. -> 152415787517146788751714678875019052100 12:52:20 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.) 12:52:23 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 12:56:40 Coolness. 12:57:57 erm couldnt bignumber be folded directly into number itself so you didnt have to inject all that duct tape glue code references to big_number all over the place ? 12:58:53 I didn't write the library. I don't think that'd be easy to manage, though. These numbers live in memory arrays, not directly on the stack. 12:59:25 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 13:02:08 it would also mean all numbers on the stack need to be big 13:02:35 that would get stack expensive very fast heh 13:02:50 Why would it mean that? 13:03:10 Since each big number is prefixed by big_number, it can stack them as 8 cells, say. 13:03:10 actually though. what practical use is there for this feature ? 13:03:32 k4jcw, duct take glue code visual clutter 13:03:33 So big* expects 2 8-cell'ed big numbers on the stack. 13:03:42 its like type casting (ick) 13:04:00 bignumbers already does that. 13:04:03 In fact these are arbitrary precision numbers, they can be of any length. 13:04:25 Ah. Yes, arbitrary precision would make it trickers. 13:04:29 trickier. 13:04:37 They're not just big, they're really really big. :) 13:04:37 Unless it stacked the length as part of the number. 13:04:58 I can't see the value in schlepping around arbitrary-sized data items on the stack. A reference suffices. 13:05:29 I didn't say it was better. Just refuting I440r's statement that the stack would have to be all big numbers. 13:07:57 i cant see any practical use for this anyway lol 13:08:32 i think the number of people in the world who need to use numbers this big is equally small 13:08:44 the percentage of them that use forth..... negligable 13:08:46 Bill Gates accounting program. 13:10:15 I440r, I used this bignums package directly in a calculator app. 13:10:39 It's working very nicely under retroforth -- calculated 2^128: 340282366920938463463374607431768211456 13:13:41 Does it support floating point also? Or did you use fixed point in your calculator? 13:14:22 With arbitrary precision, it's just a matter of deciding where the decimal point is. 13:14:29 The calculator is floating-point. 13:15:04 My implementation was a 15-digit calculator, 30 digits total (15 in front of the decimal, 15 after). I suppose that's 'fixed point', actually. :) 13:16:29 'floating-point' is an odd term, come to think of it. 13:17:11 yea, the point is the only static part of the value hehe 13:17:16 its ALWAYS in the same place 13:17:26 what floats is how much there is on either side of it lol 13:19:41 Quartus, does your calculator work with any radix? i mean can you have fec2.a9360000005 as a result ? 13:20:02 Anyway, bignums have their applications, but the neat part here is that the library just unzips and works with the ANS layer. 13:20:32 I440r, my application was a hand-calculator with some additional retail features, so it works in base 10. But the bignum library happily works in other bases, I think; let me check. 13:22:12 Yes, it does. 13:24:06 hex big_number 1234567890abcdef big_number 1234567890abcdef big* big. -> 14B66DC326FB9875100 13:24:48 it always annoyed me that when i divided hex a649 by hex 233 in the windows calculator it didnt show the fractional part of the result lol 13:25:04 not that i NEED it. it just annoyed me that it wasnt there in hex mode :P 13:26:41 4B.9C6B4F92 in case you want it :) 13:26:49 lol 13:27:46 * I440r makes a note of it 13:28:58 --- join: astecp_ (n=aspect@death.dissension.net) joined #forth 13:30:04 --- quit: I440r ("brb") 13:31:57 --- quit: astecp (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:52:32 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 14:14:27 --- quit: nighty (Client Quit) 14:16:03 --- join: aggieben (n=bc@63.98.86.62) joined #forth 14:16:31 what does one have to do to get a response from intellasys about their SEAforth-24B eval boards? I've contacted them multiple times to no avail. 14:18:10 Do the boards even exist? Perhaps they already sent you several non-existant boards, and you didn't notice them in the mail. 14:19:26 heh. Yup, and I already created a set of beautiful designs for a non-existant device 14:20:00 Seriously, do you know anybody who has ever seen tangible product from that outfit? 14:20:10 even if the boards don't exist (which several industry articles have reported on), it seems that they could simply email or call me back and say "we don't have them" 14:20:39 Quartus: the articles I read said that there's a commercial home entertainment system using the SEAforth-24 14:21:26 Called...? 14:21:44 I don't know. I can't remember (or the articles didn't say) 14:22:02 You'd think that'd be a key data item. 14:22:07 you'd think. 14:22:34 I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with the whole thing. The cell processor is looking better and better. 14:24:51 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 14:29:16 --- quit: EsotericMoniker (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:29:34 --- join: EsotericMoniker (n=Esoteric@207.226.175.176) joined #forth 14:32:38 aggieben, do you have some need for new and largely un-tried processor technologies, or are you just playing around? 14:34:52 mmmm. cell processors are tastey. 14:35:40 Quartus: yes and no. The SEAforth-24, if it is what they say it is, looked interesting because it provided distributed processing on chip with low power consmption. I'm trying to design an embedded device that could make use of those features 14:36:01 the cell processor offers some of the same features, but it's a little more heavyweight-sounding than the SEAforth 14:36:29 I see. 14:36:53 I think the cell is much more power-hungry than what the SEAforth claims 14:38:52 My imaginary product has far more grandiose claims. :) 14:40:29 and the seaforth chip has much more cores, so a bigger dick ;-) 14:46:08 but I'll be happy when the cell processors is available, that will be cool. 14:54:55 I thought cell processors were available. 14:57:20 aha.. 14:57:49 when I get them at my electronic store of my choice then I call them available 14:59:40 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:59:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o slava 15:02:24 fast parallel processors, then all vm languages which use hw quiet inefficiently will run faster and games get then written in them. 15:02:59 I can't say if I should say wow or no! they don't know what they do! 15:04:39 --- join: futhin (n=wunderwa@bespin.org) joined #forth 15:04:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 15:05:07 --- mode: futhin set +o crc 15:05:11 --- part: futhin left #forth 15:05:26 virl: I somehow doubt that the CellBE will be available at local electronics stores anytime soon, becuase it's unlikely that it will ever be a desktop processor. But I could be wrong. Anyway, I didn't mean to drag us so far off-topic. I'll stop now. 15:05:37 what is CellBE? 15:05:49 BE = broadband engine 15:06:11 and Cell = PowerPC-based processor used in PS3? 15:06:46 yeah 15:06:52 I mean yes 15:07:33 yup 15:08:01 and I expected that it will be available as a desktop processor 15:08:03 cell is not a desktop CPU, it doesn't support out of order execution. so its slower than an x86 or PowerPC chip unless you specially optimize for it. 15:08:23 bull 15:08:25 out of order execution? 15:08:26 you sure? I think the PPC core on a Cell is just a standard ppc 15:08:37 it is a normal ppc 15:08:39 so it would support whatever the other ppcs support 15:08:45 exactly a 64 core iirc 15:08:53 i don't think so. it runs at >3GHz, the fastest IBM part is 2.7 GHz. 15:09:07 also not true, heh 15:09:15 that is probably just a customization for PS3, if true 15:09:26 it has it's core and then the specialized spis 15:09:31 for a product like PS3, IBM will customize for them 15:09:40 iirc they were 8 15:09:45 virl: correct 15:10:47 Anyway, the SEAforth-24 would offer some of the same capability as the Cell, but a) with lower power consumption and b) a stack-based machine, so I thought I might check it out. But IntellaSys seems unwilling to talk to me.' 15:10:55 and lower performance... 15:11:00 of course 15:11:14 I'm not terribly interested in the leading-edge in performance. 15:11:20 but not so low.. 15:11:37 it only has to run at 500MHz or so to be reasonable. 15:11:40 you could build with it a gameconsole or something like that 15:11:43 maybe even less. 15:12:03 (ok, not a ps3) 15:12:12 or a ps2 15:12:38 but you could build with it a ps1 and lower and that's imho fantastic 15:16:55 --- quit: cods ("migration") 15:17:12 lower performance, chucks chips main design target weren't on big speed but on big power consumption. 15:17:17 right 15:18:23 and that's fantastic, I mean when I look at an old computer like the c64, which only consumed 15W and then my main pc which consumes 300W and does nothing really specially, it's impressive. 15:18:36 i don't want a c64... 15:18:37 eh, impressing 15:19:07 slava, yeah, you program highlevel and high-folks can't understand that piece of hardware. 15:19:26 a c64 can't do some of the things i want from a computer. 15:19:26 they only see it's slow speed. 15:20:33 digital media, numerical computations 15:21:14 Hey, I just got Eckert's floating-point emulation to run out of the box, too, under Retro. 15:21:23 'digital media', ehm.. the c64 was a game computer so it was designed for digital media. 15:21:59 virl: be serious. i'm talking about playing mp3 audio, divx video, dvds, etc. 15:23:17 it's an old computer.. that's true. but the things you do on todays boxes I think that could be easily done with a new variant of this old c64 design. 15:23:27 if it was, say, 100 times faster. 15:23:50 ehm, then we have 100mhz 15:24:21 mp3s iirc they run at an 300mhz pentium or not? 15:24:33 or when does realtime decoding start? 15:24:43 somewhere around that 15:24:58 ok, then it needs to be 300 times faster 15:24:59 but you can never have enough performance for some tasks 15:25:12 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 15:25:13 my quad G5 can encode a CD's worth of MP3 in less than a minute 15:26:20 virl: low power requirements + distributed processing cores is what I'm really interested in 15:27:19 aggieben, well I'm too, but I'm also interested into a homebrew homecomputer, which isn't power hungry and also damn fast. 15:27:59 virl: heh - there's a website with the specs for a homebrew computer running at 1mhz 15:28:16 all homebrew - including the cpu 15:28:39 do you mean that thing which is completly made of ttl logic? 15:28:45 yup 15:28:49 I thought it was pretty cool 15:29:16 yeah, that's cool. but probably slower than a c64.. 15:29:49 I wouldn't know. c64 is almost before my time. Actually, I think c64 came out before I did. 15:30:28 it was also before my time, but besides that it interests me. 15:30:53 wasn't the C64 introduced in 1984? 15:31:03 Bit earlier, I think. 15:31:15 I think '83. 15:31:20 I think it was a good design, those homecomputers. 15:31:32 why is it better than the machine i have on my desk? 15:31:48 83? Ok. i was out in 80. 15:32:03 so whatever. I was riding tricycles when c64 came out. 15:32:20 and I wasn't born at the time 15:34:04 slava, as I said high-folks can't understand that 15:34:22 who are high-folks? 15:34:32 i can understand anything with a reasoned, valid argument behind it 15:36:05 "high-folks"? 15:37:00 high-folks are highlevel coders and my argument, which you won't understand is, that the c64 was a computer with a compact design with nice hardware for the time and also a nice media concept. 15:37:38 i code in all kinds of languages, virl 15:37:49 i've been programming for 10 years 15:37:57 oh.. wow.. 15:38:28 I'm soo impressed, hail slava our coding hero with his big-dick-experience 15:38:34 I've been programming for considerably longer than you've been alive, virl. You might want to consider your audience before proclaiming what they will, and will not be able to understand. 15:41:27 I don't care how anybody in this channel is coding, it's not an argument. 15:41:41 I didn't think you'd understand it. 15:41:48 --- join: vatic (n=chatzill@pool-162-84-156-148.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:42:10 why I should the fuck care? 15:42:19 it doesn't matter 15:42:44 good grief, you are one nasty, angry child. 15:43:08 virl: you need to calm down and try to communicate more effectively 15:45:27 why should I care? 15:46:15 if you want us to understand what you are saying. 15:46:24 virl: if you have to ask that question then you would never accept the answer 15:46:29 I predict another 'why should I care?' is coming. 15:47:39 howabout "people suck"? ;) 15:47:56 some people are dumb 15:48:48 i suspect you're one of them, but you're young and will learn if you keep an open mind 15:50:14 slava: most young people just learn the hard way 15:50:34 'most young people' when I read that I get sick. 15:50:35 I suppose I'm one of them, but I have already had to learn a number of things by being stupid first. 15:51:17 virl: if you weren't born by 1984, then you're young. Period. I'm older than you, and I consider myself to be a baby engineer. 15:51:22 * vatic wonders what dumb means anyway... 15:51:34 vatic: I thought it meant you couldn't speak 15:51:41 only two little years. 15:51:42 vatic, I thought you were an American? Isn't Bush still president? :) 15:52:15 i've worked with 50 year olds who didn't get past the "you're dumb and i'm right and you're wrong and i won't listen neeneer neeneer neeneer" stage. its not just young people 15:52:16 * vatic wants a definition, not an analogy... :-) 15:52:43 He's not an analogy, he's a prime example. 15:52:50 one guy would make the most ridiculous design decisions in the project and justified them because he had 25 years experience 15:52:50 slava: here here. I can't stand to be around people who are twice my age but less mature. 15:53:06 Quartus: Bush will be President in various incarnations for the rest of my life... :-( 15:53:15 vatic: ? 15:53:26 aggieben: yes? 15:54:04 vatic: "President in various incarnations"...? 15:54:38 aggieben: My guess is that the next one that gets elected will be more like him than not... 15:54:58 ...and over, and over, and over... 15:55:39 ah.. and a country with really two parties... no onder why there is this black and white view in this country. 15:55:45 It'll end after the US economy crashes and we're engulfed in civil war here. 15:55:54 unlikely 15:55:56 vatic: not likely. Giuliani (whom I don't think could actually be elected) is _very_ different. Hillary Clinton is _very_ different. John McCain is pretty different too, although probably more alike than the other two 15:57:55 vatic tehe President has served his two terms 15:57:56 aggieben: They all seem confortable shouldering the responsibility of being the world's policeman. Presidents' since Dwight Eisenhower have been happy to step up... 15:58:13 Quartus you remember that's the same crap that was said of Reagan too? 15:58:25 Reagan had a brain disease. 15:58:31 I don't accept people who think, that they are wiser, because they are older. they are all the same kind of dumbness around this stupid world. 15:58:33 that's not the point 15:58:36 he was also considerably more intelligent than bush 15:58:51 vatic: that's an interesting thing to say. I don't necessarily disagree, but it's about time we had a more libertarian president 15:58:54 When his brain worked, he was smarter than Bush, but then so is my cat. 15:58:56 virl: i think something is true if you can prove it is so. 15:59:10 virl: arguments based on emotion, faith and "i'm right you're wrong" don't appeal to me 15:59:49 aggieben: I think it's time to return to the isolationism of the 1930s. It would be something both the right and left could agree on... 15:59:53 nor to me; it's called ad hominem argument 16:00:09 and it's only distracting; it has no valid use 16:00:16 liberals use it often 16:00:19 and even "dumb" people are right sometimes. don't forget that 16:00:26 true 16:00:46 vatic: I don't know about that level of isolationism, but there are definitely projects overseas that we could avoid or end. Rumsfeld made the right choice to start removing soldiers from South Korea. 16:00:53 slava: "Even the blind squirrel gets an acorn every once in a while..." 16:01:15 emotion and faith are arguments. because they are not based on objective things which aren't objective, because objectiveness is something which doesn't exists really in this human world. so all arguments are arguments for something. 16:01:46 virl: including yours? 16:02:09 slava, a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. :) 16:02:13 heh 16:02:27 Quiznos: your nick makes me picture that freaky talking baby on the quizzno's commercials. 16:02:32 Unless you have a 24-hour clock. 16:02:39 Quartus: hadn't heard that before. 16:02:43 virl: if there is no good reason for something to be true, i tend to believe it isn't true. simplest possible explanation, etc 16:03:22 the reason mathematical knowledge lasts centuries while other sciences start from scratch every quarter century is because math by its nature is based on reason and logic 16:03:56 slava: what sciences have started from scratch every 25 yrs? 16:04:29 well, biology and physics by definition are looking for theories to approximate nature. more sensitive measurements and observations invalidate past theories 16:04:49 'reason and logic' too idealistic worldview and also a simple minded one. 16:05:04 : d2/ dup 1 and >r 2/ swap 1 rshift r> 0<> highbit and or swap ; 16:05:06 reason and logic! THINK! 16:05:11 Is there a better d2/ than that? 16:05:27 (highbit is what you think it is, a constant with the high-bit set) 16:05:49 It works, but it makes me cry. 16:06:20 aggieben yea ;) 16:07:25 ok, coders who call themself good ones can't understand my view. 16:07:36 That's asinine. 16:08:04 * TreyB ponders Quartus' puzzle... 16:08:12 virl: anybody will be able to understand your view (even if they disagree) if you could communicate it clearly 16:08:34 eg, i understand the view held by fans of statically typed languages, even if i disagree 16:08:40 prove me the opposite. 16:08:45 most "opinion" is actually based on hear-say. 16:10:04 that's sadly true, but who doesn't have such opinions? 16:10:19 i try not to repeat stuff i've heard elsewhere, but cannot really verify 16:10:51 well, to that which i just wrote plus yours, i'd add that the bottom line is to unlearn that which is unsupportable. that's my current mode. 16:11:16 learning is `being propaganised' 16:11:28 and it's very difficult to unlearn things but not impossible. 16:12:29 law is one subject that everyone hears but no one knows; I've been studying law at home for more than a decade now and i'm shocked by how much misinformation is spoken everyday 16:12:47 "everyone" includes lawyers and judges and school teachers. 16:13:32 Quartus: : d2/ dup 1 and cellwidthbits-1 lshift rot 1 rshift or swap 2/ ; 16:13:49 virl: what you're trying to argue is a rhetorical fallacy. "My opinion is ________; it must be true unless you can prove me wrong". 16:13:49 I don't know if that qualifies as "better" or not. 16:14:16 Slightly shorter. Relies on a factor 'cellwidthbits-'. 16:14:22 absolute negatives cannot be proven; no one can prove that the Creator does NOT exist. 16:14:45 Quartus: It equates to your "highbit". 16:15:14 No, Quiznos. You've been asked repeatedly. This is a technical channel; it is not an appropriate forum for religious debate. 16:15:42 aggieben, I don't say that my opinion is true. 16:16:10 virl: if you don't believe your opinion is true, then why have it? 16:16:14 I only say that you can't guarantee that you are completly free of false information 16:16:19 oh but political and discussion about debate is? 16:16:24 virl: nobody said that 16:16:33 i was only drawing a conclusion 16:16:40 Draw it in some other manner. 16:16:42 and making an example 16:16:44 tuff 16:16:53 i use what i know. 16:16:57 Quartus: should Quartus "word wrap" when text gets to the right hand side of the interpreter? 16:17:04 your fear limits you, not me. 16:17:15 Quartus Forth, vatic? What do you mean, exactly? 16:17:44 * TreyB looks at the channel name, sees #forth, not #politics or #religion. 16:18:10 You mean when you're entering text at the interpreter? That's a one-line field. It was painful to try to make it a dynamic multi-line field. 16:18:18 why was it painful? 16:18:22 Quartus: I can't recall this happening before, but I entered youd d2/ into Quartus and the definition ran off the right edge of the screen. I was typing blind. 16:18:28 TreyB: yes, I'm sorry. I started this mess. 16:18:28 your 16:18:50 The Palm OS doesn't make it trivial to make a repositionable multi-line field. 16:19:00 ah. 16:19:44 My efforts never behaved the way I wanted them to. I accepted defeat. The Quartus Forth console is only for short entry at any rate. If a word is longer than that, it should be either shortened or put in a memo. :) 16:19:56 btw. what was the topic of this discussion? 'hit the virl' or what? 16:20:00 --- join: cods (n=root@tuxee.net) joined #forth 16:20:03 have you considered writing an editor, Quartus ? 16:20:14 slava, you mean an integrated one? 16:20:17 yes 16:20:18 Quartus; that's OK, just so long as you know about it. :-) 16:20:31 --- join: madgarden (n=madgarde@Quebec-HSE-ppp3617972.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 16:20:33 I haven't. I lean heavily toward external editors for development. 16:20:34 being root can be dangerous. 16:20:38 slava: there are no shortage of good editors out there... 16:20:43 virl: you started the whole discussion about how us "high-coders" will never understand you 16:21:00 vatic: forth-specific features would be nice, like jump to word at cursor, turn selection into its own word, etc 16:21:26 "high-people", slava. :) 16:21:37 right 16:21:57 slava: maybe tighter integration with something like pedit... 16:22:22 At present Quartus Forth will take you to the spot in a memo where an error occurred, works with pedit too. 16:22:51 And with a free system extension, you can leap back and forth between Quartus Forth and an editor. I find it a pretty good system. 16:23:32 no, the discussion was about stupid scumbags who think, because that they are older, they are automatically wiser and so every person who is younger should kiss their feets and hails them. 16:23:37 about that was the discussion. 16:23:37 --- join: bendsu (n=benjamin@cpe-071-068-104-186.carolina.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:23:44 who made such a claim? 16:24:21 slava, you with your 'I coded for 10 years' and Quartus with it's 'I'm coding longer than you live' 16:24:53 virl: that was in response to your claim that we won't understand your point. we probably will, if you communicate it 16:25:04 Quartus: system extension? 16:25:13 and I communicated it. 16:25:24 vatic, back in the OS4 and earlier days it was SwitchHack; the newer one is Switch5. 16:25:48 Quartus: I don't think any of those hacks works on a TX... 16:25:49 TreyB, thanks for the d2/ effort :) 16:25:55 vatic, TX is OS5, right? 16:26:08 Quartus: yup! 16:26:14 Try Switch5. Runs on my LifeDrive. 16:26:28 Quartus: will do. thx! 16:31:15 I said that high-folks, so high coders can't understand it that I think a new version of a homecomputer would be better than a newer pc with a bigger power suply than the previous model, because of their highlevel view. 16:33:08 o/` Ich bin des Herrn... 16:33:32 virl: that's not true. i understand the need for embedded computers perfectly well 16:33:46 and embedded computing of course has low power usage as one of its requirements 16:34:36 jesus.. 16:34:51 i don't think a c64-style /desktop/ computer would be very useful, though 16:35:04 people today expect to run applications, not type in BASIC listings 16:35:17 -_- 16:35:32 I don't said a 1:1 copy 16:36:01 i'm not sure what i'd do with a computer which didn't run linux or mac os (or at least windows...) 16:36:03 you don't see it. 16:36:09 ok then.. 16:36:49 i don't just use my computer for the sake of using a computer. i also need to write stuff, read stuff, and ideally be able to listen to digital music too. 16:36:50 a system where software and hardware go hand in hands. 16:36:55 slava: what if it weren't BASIC but INTERCAL? would it be useful then? ;-) 16:37:13 my thesis is in latex... 16:37:23 I never said that the software on it should be basic, it should be a system which fits perfect to the hardware. 16:37:44 that could be a customized unix or a completly own development. 16:38:55 virl: I've found Moore's and Terry Loveall's talks on these issues very inspiring... 16:39:07 today there aren't pragmatic-idealists 16:39:50 vatic, yeah moore is one who has some nice concepts into that direction. 16:40:36 virl: have you poked around here? http://modest-proposals.com/ 16:41:14 virl: I'm really enjoying his tiny text editors right now... 16:41:44 idealists - the people who are too abstract and not very practical. pragmatics - who use for something everytime the right hammer, but even when this is a complex one, they use it, they tend to build patchwork. 16:46:19 well, that was a depressing night 16:50:35 TreyB : d2/ >r 1 rshift r@ 1 and if highbit or then r> 2/ ; 17:11:30 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 17:12:47 The RetroForth ANS layer with some extra goodies: http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=152 17:12:49 hi slava, virl Quartus, vatic, lurkers, ( did I miss anyone?) 17:12:52 I thought about an if-based variant, but didn't pursue it. 17:12:57 hi TreyB 17:13:13 Hi Raystm2. 17:13:39 This version of the layer compiles Eckert's floating-point emulation cleanly. 17:13:50 Back from vacation. How's every little thing? did I miss much this week. 17:13:52 ? 17:13:56 There's a nicely-formatted DUMP implementation in there too. 17:14:02 Raystm2, not too much. How was the vacation? 17:14:24 Fan-blooming-tastic with several exclamation points. 17:14:37 Great! 17:15:10 I had forgotten how beautiful the Northeast is. 17:15:28 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 17:15:41 Howdy Raystm2. 17:16:05 So, Quartus, where are you on the Retro-ANS? 17:16:21 http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=152 17:16:39 Coming along nicely. Compiles large ANS programs without modification. 17:16:45 yes, :) just saw that link in retro, my timing not so good yet :) 17:17:09 No kidding, that's wonderful. 17:17:30 I ported a 486 assembler with almost no effort. 17:17:41 sweeeet. 17:18:15 Zettel's bignums run cleanly, and I just compiled Eckert's floating-point emulation package as well. 17:18:36 I'm sure crc is pleased as punch. 17:18:42 I know I am. 17:19:03 He's been quite helpful in resolving the minor issues I've encountered as I've progressed. 17:19:09 * TreyB discovers that the last payment for the tractor cleared today. w00t! 17:19:15 Added a couple of kernel words for me. 17:19:26 congrats!! TreyB. 17:19:48 Thanks :-) 17:19:56 Ah, okay Quartus, Will have to become re-aquainted with the language again I suppose. :) 17:20:23 I imagine the chessgame is out of sync. 17:20:32 Could be. 17:20:41 Good. Fun. 17:20:58 I tuned in late, I don't know how radical the recent changes to retro have been. 17:21:13 For my work, I need an is: (run-time is) and 'now' words. 17:21:18 Sure. I'll get an update from the author. 17:21:27 I see. 17:22:08 Quartus: for defer? 17:22:20 At this point the kernel is a couple of tweaks away from making it possible to do a 100%-ANS compliance layer, and crc thinks he may be able to manage that in an upcoming version, maybe September timeframe. 17:22:38 TreyB, retroforth doesn't have defer in it, it uses something called 'vectored words'. 17:22:43 That is phenominal 17:22:56 So..... : foo vector ; : moo ." Moo! " ; ' moo is foo 17:23:15 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 17:24:50 * Raystm2 finds Quartus' latest ans update and reads. 17:27:34 Oh, I meant to ask... 17:27:47 Quartus, How do you like working in retroforth? 17:28:14 Tough question to answer. Really I work almost entirely under this layer, so it's a different animal. 17:28:53 Sure. 17:28:57 I understand that. 17:29:06 * Raystm2 is liking 'now'. 17:29:29 You made vectored words out of not-vectored words using now? 17:29:35 Some features of retroforth by itself drive me batty -- for instance the built-in .s always shows ten items, it's impossible to tell if a word has left a zero on the stack. 17:29:45 No, you can only use now on vectored words. 17:29:51 I see. 17:30:03 ya. I always couple .s with a depth output 17:30:18 Except that retroforth has no depth built-in. 17:30:19 : ds depth . cr .s ; 17:30:29 right I always drop it in. 17:30:29 Raystm2: you're not back in Texas already are you? ;-) 17:30:41 yes, vatic, back in the saddle again. 17:30:59 There's no compiler security, and no exception handling built in, so typos sail merrily on by and crash. 17:31:00 just drove 28 hours straight to get here. 17:31:05 I'm so tired it's not funny. 17:31:15 I see. 17:31:47 And it's case-sensitive, which I constantly trip on (the ANS layer softens this a bit). 17:32:19 I'll prob'ly fall asleep reading the ANS extention so... :) hope ya'll understand . 17:32:20 No double-number support. No 'else'. 17:32:29 ya. :) 17:32:37 Raystm2: that's very Texas of you... :-) 17:32:46 hehe. 17:32:47 And while you can often code around the absence of 'else', there are times that it is clumsier. 17:33:04 Raystm2: anyway, welcome home, sounds like a great time. 17:33:41 It was vatic. I hadn't seen any of my own family in 20 years. I had 2 brothers I had never met. ( /me oldest of 10 kids) 17:34:04 I also went a little insane working with loc: and ;loc, so I wrote a replacement section:/;section that alleviates my main complaint about loc:/;loc. 17:34:09 Raystm2: intense! 17:34:28 * Raystm2 likes the section words. 17:34:33 vatic: very! 17:34:56 AND I was diagnosed diabetic the day before I left. 17:34:58 The section stuff is crude, but it works well in the context of this layer for keeping the wordlist uncluttered. 17:35:08 Raystm2, ugh! Dietary changes ahead? 17:35:17 my eyes are re-adjusting and I can see well with out glasses now. 17:35:36 yes, but Quartus, i'm looking forward to it all. 17:35:45 That's good. 17:35:48 Apparently, I've been this way a very long time. 17:35:57 I was walking dead. 17:36:18 I was pushing myself to do things that I really couldn't do. 17:36:29 I was why I was depressed for so long. 17:36:43 Blood-sugar issues. 17:36:46 yes. 17:37:08 AND I ate so much sugar all day long... whew I lucky to be alive. 17:44:36 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 17:45:26 --- join: Quartus__ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 17:52:37 many years ahead with attention to diet, I'm sure. 17:53:25 I'm different now. 17:53:35 I can feel a real difference. 17:53:54 that's good! 17:53:54 * Raystm2 can feel lots of needle punctures in my future. :) 17:54:37 ow 17:54:50 They just figured out how to turn a certain plant into synthetic insulin cheaply. 17:57:34 neat. 17:57:51 ray, the other thing that occurs to me about unadorned retro -- variables and constants don't return an xt when ticked. 17:58:03 I've heard that the in China there is a permanent cure. 17:58:16 I did not know that. 17:58:20 door brb. 17:58:29 ray, sounds interesting. 17:59:59 stop eating over-processed foods 18:00:01 i did. 18:02:53 * Raystm2 is looking forward to steamed veggies. 18:03:06 dont forget the beef 18:03:22 avoid farm grown fish 18:03:28 and avoid crustacens 18:03:35 mmmm crustaceans 18:03:53 they are filters for all the evil in the water. dont eat them 18:04:04 scavengers 18:04:16 why not? 18:04:26 i just answered that 18:04:27 :) 18:07:51 best advice you can get is not to take dietary or medical advice from dumbasses on the internet. :) talk to professionals. 18:08:47 on a forth topic, eckert's floatint point emulation at tinyboot.com has a bug in its fsqrt. 18:08:48 Raystm2 I prsume you're an inteligent man able to evaluate information and succcesfult use google. 18:09:04 use what the creator made. 18:09:22 thanks Quiznos :) 18:09:24 stop this bible talk please 18:09:25 yw 18:09:55 yes, quiznos, again, and repeatedly, keep the religious talk out of the channel. 18:10:07 * Raystm2 ate a lobster day before yesterday. 18:10:33 had to, I was in Massachusettes. 18:10:37 heh, was it good lol 18:10:44 excellent. 18:10:45 i'm not pedantic about this stuf :) 18:10:46 lobster is a tasty beast. 18:10:50 I love it. 18:10:53 good 18:11:07 * Raystm2 is a bottom feeder :) 18:11:21 lol 18:11:55 Nan has a nice bottom. 18:12:04 lol 18:12:19 Quartus: do palms have fpus these days? 18:13:11 none thus far. 18:13:23 new palms are ARM-based. 18:14:42 i'm going to be getting an arm gumstix board some time soon, and port factor 18:14:56 fun. 18:15:08 arm assemblers are pretty simple, right? 18:16:11 ARM has a very regular instruction set. 18:17:42 I have a 16-bit arm assembler implementation in Quartus Forth as source, and the original 32-bit impl at home. 18:18:33 is quartus 16 bit? 18:18:59 yes it is. 18:23:29 I can send you the gforth version of it if you wish. 18:23:53 no its ok 18:28:04 --- quit: EsotericMoniker ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com") 18:28:08 Here it is. I ported it from Silicon Vision's RiscForth assembler from many years back. 18:31:04 About 175 lines of code, ~ 8k compiled in Gforth. 18:35:26 Which also compiles in retro under the ANS layer. :) :) 19:13:38 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 19:13:40 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-228-083.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:13:49 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 19:17:13 --- join: futhin (n=wunderwa@bespin.org) joined #forth 19:17:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 19:17:30 --- part: futhin left #forth 19:20:10 Quartus: where izzit? 19:20:17 where who what? 19:22:17 Quartus: "Here it is. I ported it from Silicon Vision's RiscForth assembler from many years back." 19:22:37 I mean, here on my machine at home. I was mobile just prior to that. 19:23:00 Quartus: Ah! 19:23:19 so THERE it is! 19:23:29 From where you're standing, yes. :) 19:23:46 sitting :-) 20:40:45 --- quit: vatic ("*poof*") 21:03:08 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc") 21:07:50 --- quit: virsys (Remote closed the connection) 21:15:10 --- part: bendsu left #forth 21:21:41 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-53-74-48.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 21:27:05 --- join: AI_coder (n=AI@ip-209-124-242-76.dynamic.eatel.net) joined #forth 21:27:35 This may sound ridiculous and it probably is, but does gforth provide a way to alter the current loop number? 21:27:49 i.e. trying to store to i 21:41:29 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 21:53:09 AI_coder, no. 21:53:47 You could probably do so with r> ... >r but I wouldn't recommend it. 21:54:44 If you find yourself needing to do that, you need to rethink how you're solving the problem. 22:08:22 In fact I just tried it, it sort of half works. If you manage to change the index past the limit, the limit-checking will not trip and the loop will run far in excess of what you anticipate. 22:23:39 --- quit: AI_coder (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:41:27 --- quit: slava () 23:59:28 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=jason@66.213.202.50) joined #forth 23:59:30 hi 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.08.22