00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.19
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05:20:04 <Serg_Penguin> hi ! did you ever use arbitrary number of stacks in Forth ?
05:20:26 <PoppaVic> You mean adding stacks for yourself?
05:20:57 <PoppaVic> stacks are - in essence - just another way to collect data
05:23:49 <Serg_Penguin> hm, i mean define CREATE word what can make a new stacks for you, and using that stacks
05:24:28 <Serg_Penguin> i wrote a half of such a "library", but never happened to use it
05:24:33 <PoppaVic> well, I saw some gforth words that make_stack, etc - but yeah, you can do that too
06:53:52 <Quiznos> Serg_Penguin i'm going to be writing a couple of words to do stacks-switching 
06:54:47 <PoppaVic> Add one to create and another to destroy as well ;-)
06:55:17 <Quiznos> well, if stacks are heap-alloc'd, then those heap words do that
06:55:31 <PoppaVic> It's not all as easy as most folks make it out to be.
06:55:35 <Quiznos> true
06:56:00 <Quiznos> especially interrupts during stack register setting
06:56:03 <Quiznos> sp
06:56:30 <PoppaVic> I try to ignore interrupts - I let the kernel and process seal with them.
06:56:44 <Quiznos> yea
06:56:54 <PoppaVic> seal/deal
06:57:08 <Quiznos> but that also takes actual planning to do too
06:57:31 <PoppaVic> no, it takes a "system" - and I don't care to write one.
06:57:53 <Quiznos> can it take a system of villages?
06:57:54 <PoppaVic> Interfacing with it, consistently, is more than hard enough
06:58:10 <Quiznos> can it take a county?
06:58:28 <PoppaVic> each are "systems"
06:58:49 <PoppaVic> I avoid the village, as WELL as the city.
06:59:10 <PoppaVic> I can interface, but I don't much like it.
06:59:32 <Quiznos> someone in #lisp mentioned that stack switching can be used for closures and contuations; which i need to learn what those words mean in lisp or scheme
06:59:49 <Quiznos> continuation
07:00:02 <Quiznos> too early to be doin multisyllabics
07:00:13 <PoppaVic> yeah, they are seriously odd.. Basically, someone sets setjmp and someone else can longjmp
07:00:34 <PoppaVic> it's like shoving shit to the IP and stack
07:00:39 <Quiznos> there's also a concept from Griswold's Icon that that i wanna port
07:01:16 <Quiznos> one is also called continuation, but i dont yet know if it's the same as in lisp
07:02:28 <PoppaVic> I'm trying to focus on my Klass stuff for a few days... I'm cogitating if I need to create asciiz and unicode Klasses
07:02:46 <Quiznos> *z?  why nulls?
07:02:51 <PoppaVic> basically, char vs wchar
07:02:55 <Quiznos> yea
07:03:02 <PoppaVic> yeah, I'd do that '\0
07:03:05 <PoppaVic> anyway
07:03:28 <Quiznos> yea one of the unicode sub-types include natural ascii, that's the one i want to incorporate
07:04:21 <PoppaVic> Prob is, I think it belongs in the numerics-area, and I want 100% char/ascii for input and would allow wchar for output-only.
07:04:31 <Quiznos> have you ever used the dos editor named Aurora?
07:04:32 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: utf8
07:04:37 <Quiznos> yea, that one
07:04:38 <PoppaVic> no
07:04:56 <PoppaVic> well, the true unicode-fanatics hate utf8
07:05:41 <PoppaVic> I keep thinking in terms of the baseline of an ascii/qwerty keyboard/input.
07:05:46 <Quiznos> i cant esplain it, neuron trouble
07:06:07 <PoppaVic> console easiest, html and whatnot being a layer and plus
07:06:36 <Quiznos> either i'll provide multibyte Chars or just Char == Cell
07:06:50 <Quiznos> so no Char info is lost
07:07:08 <PoppaVic> yeah, unfortunately it's costly and I'd prefer to abstract more.
07:07:22 <Quiznos> well dont abstract too much
07:07:51 <PoppaVic> I want my abstraction allllllll over. And, I keep thinking about basics as well.
07:07:58 <Quiznos> k
07:08:30 <PoppaVic> my "datastack" will be nothing but nodes pointing to instances
07:09:16 <Quiznos> i finally figered out that instead of tryin to debug my kernel exteriorally with objdump and gdb (which is near impossible) im gonna have to switch to eforth 
07:09:26 <Quiznos> so, back to eforth for me
07:09:37 <PoppaVic> instances rely on klasses of objects, and we just chuck an error to the stack or vm (or both) if someone gets stupid.
07:09:38 <Quiznos> i'll just reshape that
07:09:56 <Quiznos> do you read the comp.lang.forth?
07:10:06 <PoppaVic> no - not for years
07:10:09 <Quiznos> k
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07:10:39 <Quiznos> what are you doin here?
07:10:40 <PoppaVic> when I saw what they did WHILE I was a FIG member, I got ill - colorforth sorta' convinced me that folks are just silly.
07:10:57 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: talkin' to you?
07:11:06 <PoppaVic> watching all the variant-concepts?
07:11:11 <Quiznos> kwiznos is a bot that quotes me :)
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07:11:21 <Quiznos> it belongs in the linux channels
07:11:39 <Quiznos> variants of the while word?
07:11:58 <PoppaVic> of all of it... It's........ "amusing"
07:12:15 <Quiznos> k, not quite following but that's neural to me
07:12:31 <Quiznos> that's ok
07:13:01 <Quiznos> alright, so i need to go back to eforth.  a decision is born
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11:21:43 <virl> which linux terminal do you use for pbforth?
11:22:01 <Quiznos> in console or x11?
11:22:12 <virl> I don't care..
11:22:34 <Quiznos> there are two different terms to choose, console is commonly `linux'
11:22:41 <Quiznos> and x11/xterm has its own
11:23:10 <Quiznos> (bw|color)-linux
11:23:17 <Quiznos> and several xterm entries
11:23:27 <Quiznos> then there terminfo to choose from
11:23:31 <Quiznos> there's
11:24:57 <virl> aha. so you haven't played with pbforth
11:25:06 <Quiznos> correct
11:25:31 <Quiznos> but your q was about termcap (and by inference terminfo)
11:25:44 <virl> no it wasn't about termcap
11:26:00 <Quiznos> ok
11:26:13 <Quiznos> i was just being complete :)
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12:46:44 <slava> why am i an op??
12:46:56 <Quartus> I440r's doing, as I recall.
12:47:52 <virl> slava does factor accidentally have an osc implementation?
12:47:59 <slava> virl: what is osc?
12:50:19 <virl> ok, so you don't have it.
12:50:45 <virl> osc - open sound control and is a network protocol for multimedia stuff
12:50:49 <slava> ok
12:51:00 <virl> multimedia stuff in the sense of sound stuff
12:51:31 <slava> i don't want to do sound until i have an incremental GC
12:52:46 <slava> with generational GC most collections are very quick, <1ms, but every once in a while you have to do a full collection which takes ~60ms on my G5
12:52:51 <slava> that's too long for sound, video and games.
12:53:28 <slava> with incremental GC you never need to do a full GC, you just do a certain amount of work per allocation
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13:47:48 <virl> Quartus, do you know a terminal emulator for pbforth under linux?
13:52:47 <slava> virl: i tried a factor release from a year ago, takes 34 minutes to bootstrap on my x86 machine. current factor bootstraps in 2 and a half minutes
13:52:58 <slava> i forgot how slow it was
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14:15:44 <vatic> virl: there's terminal code in the gforth CVS. look under /arch/r8c, I believe...
14:17:01 <vatic> yup, terminal.fs
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14:55:30 <k4jcw> bloody poofters
15:00:27 <virl> lol
15:25:28 <Quartus> virl, no I don't.
15:30:24 <virl> aha.. but you have used pbforth
15:30:33 <Quartus> Yes, I have.
15:30:50 <Quartus> Just about any terminal emulator should do the trick.
15:30:58 <Quartus> I'm just not up on terminal emulators under linux.
15:31:30 <virl> I read that pbforth expects the xmodem protocol.
15:31:46 <Quartus> I don't recall that, but it's been awhile since I checked in on it.
15:37:01 <k4jcw> xmodem doesn't really have much to do with the terminal emulation, however.  
15:37:18 <k4jcw> minicom, for instance, can use any external file transfer program.
15:37:33 <Quartus> No, and I can't think why pbforth would want a transfer protocol, unless it can somehow dump its own dictionary, which I don't recall it being able to do.
15:37:39 <k4jcw> And other than minicom, I don't know of any comm programs for Linux.
15:37:53 <Quartus> That rings a bell.  I think I used minicom (minicomm?)
15:38:00 <k4jcw> One 'm'
15:38:16 <k4jcw> Well, 2 total. :)
15:38:56 <k4jcw> minicom does ANSI and vt102 emulation.
15:39:15 <Quartus> I remember having to fiddle with duplex settings with pbforth.
15:39:34 <k4jcw> You may still need to, but reading the web page, he's redone the serial drivers, which had problems with echo.
15:39:51 <k4jcw> Apparently now he turns off the receiver during transmissions, which fixed a lot of issues.
15:39:58 <Quartus> Makes sense.
15:41:19 <k4jcw> Selling stuff on eBay is addictive.  But when it gets down to the last couple hours, you really want them over fast.  Most people wait until the end to bid (snipe), and you keep urging the bids to go up.
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15:48:25 <virl> it would be nice when he would redo some of his docs..
15:48:37 <Quiznos> what's wrong with pbforth?
15:48:59 <virl> btw. on whos box does pbforth compile? I know that it doesn't on mine..
15:49:08 <Quiznos> why not?
15:50:56 <virl> puh, because of a bug in it's tcl scripts and I don't like to fix it at the moment.
15:51:24 <Quiznos> k
15:52:25 <virl> I think it's something which the author of the system should do, not it's users.
15:52:41 <Quiznos> sure
15:53:01 <virl> btw. pbforths website seems not to get updated.
15:53:16 <Quartus> It's a free system, so.
15:56:43 <virl> a free system doesn't mean that the author is so mentally disabled that he can't write on his website 'sry folks, I don't continue it'
15:58:24 <Quiznos> did he write that?
16:01:05 <virl> no he didn't, I hat that.
16:01:09 <virl> hate
16:06:13 <juri_> there are no standards in opensource software. you dont like? use something else.
16:06:59 <juri_> or, try improving things.
16:07:07 <Quartus> Right. Help out or move on.  You get what you pay for, and all that.
16:09:35 <virl> such sentences can only come from people who support the current system.
16:10:06 <Quartus> Whereas complaints come from people like you.
16:12:17 <virl> I'm one of those who try to improve it.
16:12:27 <Quartus> Yeah, look at you go, zoom!
16:14:30 <virl> what?
16:14:35 <juri_> where are your patches this week?
16:14:57 <juri_> to read my patches, grab the GNU GIFT mailing list. where i've contributed three rather ugly speed optimizations. in the last week.
16:15:09 <juri_> "put up or shut up"
16:19:06 <virl> I don't understand you.
16:25:54 <virl> I hope I don't get like this. so stupid.
16:27:58 <Quartus> Update to the RetroForth ANS layer: http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=142
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16:55:09 <k4jcw> What name do you operate under on the GIFT mailing list, juri?
16:55:18 <k4jcw> or juri_, if you prefer.
16:56:17 <k4jcw> Geez, the mailling list, unless I'm misreading it, looks like one big spam archive.
17:34:17 <Quiznos> k4jcw what list?
17:34:28 <k4jcw> <juri_> to read my patches, grab the GNU GIFT mailing list. where i've contributed three rather ugly speed optimizations. in the last week.
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19:51:22 <juri_> k4: "julia longtin"
19:52:55 <k4jcw> www.julialongtin.com?
19:53:44 <k4jcw> hmm, probably not, unless you're dabbling in real estate as well.
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19:56:44 <juri_> nope. thats not me.
19:56:56 <juri_> tho, in hindsight, i should have registered that years ago.
19:57:32 <Quartus> www.nealbridges.com
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20:25:41 <k4jcw> Wow, an MST3K junkie, eh?
20:36:55 <ayrnieu> interesting that I get a great deal of savannah.gnu.org and gmane and such "Julia Longtin", that www.julialongtin.com doesn't even appear on the first page of search results.
20:39:18 <ayrnieu> interesting if you imagine this other person buying the name and setting up the website and then searching for herself.
20:40:34 <Quartus> k4jcw, you bet.
20:40:42 <Quartus> I custom build bots, too.
20:40:44 <juri_> yep, she must not like me very much. :)
20:40:47 <k4jcw> Which Joel was better?
20:41:00 <Quartus> You mean Joel or Mike?  I like'em both.
20:41:04 <k4jcw> Personally, I liked the original, and thought the second was a loser.
20:41:29 <Quartus> The second guy, Mike, was head writer from almost the beginning, so he was a natural choice five years in when Joel stepped down.
20:41:53 <k4jcw> Perhaps.  But he just didn't have "it" (whatever "it" is), compared to Joel.
20:42:04 <Quartus> Different guy.  Different aspects to appreciate.
20:42:19 <k4jcw> I suppose.
20:42:32 <Quartus> There were two Crows, too.  And technically, two Servos, though not so many people remember the first.
20:42:50 <k4jcw> I haven't watched MST3K in a long time.  Are they still making originals?
20:43:08 <Quartus> No, it ran ten years or so and then stopped.  Mike puts out audio commentary tracks at www.rifftrax.com
20:43:08 <ayrnieu> I'd expect them to be up to MST4K, now.
20:44:41 <k4jcw> Crow's body tube looks like 4" non-perforated drain pipe
20:44:51 <Quartus> It is.
20:45:06 <k4jcw> heh.
20:45:24 <k4jcw> Do you get a lot of business on the 'bot parts?
20:45:37 <Quartus> Fair amount. Always up for more, though.
20:46:16 <k4jcw> Interesting hobby/business.
20:46:33 <Quartus> Keeps me off the streets.
20:46:43 <k4jcw> No it doesn't.
20:46:50 <Quartus> DOES!
20:46:51 <k4jcw> I see you mobile with Quartus__ all the time :)
20:46:52 <Quartus> YOU ARE ALL FOOLS!
20:46:56 <Quartus> oh good point.
20:47:53 <k4jcw> I was going to ask you about that...  That Werty business.  It was lost on me.
20:48:20 <Quartus> Guy named werty on comp.lang.forth.  Completely out of his mind.
20:49:00 <k4jcw> Weird people and Forth seem to occur a lot together.  I find this... disturbing.
20:49:08 <Quartus> He's comically weird.
20:49:23 <k4jcw> ah
20:49:39 <Quartus> Well, every group had nutjobs.  Smaller group, fewer nutjobs.  But you can't have a fraction of a nutjob, so it rounds up and they're more noticeable. :)
20:54:16 <ayrnieu> also, smaller groups are less likely to hold a lynching.
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20:55:00 <Quartus> heh
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