00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.17
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00:13:13 <Quartus> Hi segher_.
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01:18:52 <AI_coder> Just guessing but ans forth (gforth in my case) doesn't provide a random number function no?
01:19:31 <Quiznos> duno specifically
01:20:06 <AI_coder> require random.fs looks promising however...
01:20:44 <Quiznos> kk
01:23:33 <AI_coder> Quiznos: Are you familiar with perl?
01:23:48 <Quiznos> not really, join ##Linux for that pls
01:24:10 <AI_coder> What an unusual canned response.
01:24:20 <Quiznos> heh, it aint canned ;) it's bottled
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02:12:06 <AI_coder> What would it take to get arrays into forth, can someone tell me how to forget the C array, because it's driving me nuts with the ridiculous pointer arithmetic.
02:12:41 <AI_coder> I just want to say a[100][30] but I have no idea how to do that in less than 100 characters.
02:13:46 <AI_coder> I mean forth is good at abstracting how do I abstract  xt *a[100][30]; where xt is an execution token.
02:14:24 <AI_coder> You would never see an array of 3000 functions in C though hehe.
02:15:30 <Quiznos> forth arrays are just sequentially adjacent vectors of cells or bytes (ie, strings)
02:15:41 <Quiznos> the [][] is just addition to the base address
02:16:07 <Quiznos> there is array code at Taygeta to study
02:16:23 <AI_coder> Do you have a link?
02:16:25 <Quiznos> allocate memory for the vector and populate
02:16:28 <Quiznos> taygeta.com
02:16:33 <Quiznos> also good would know for sure
02:16:45 <Quiznos> google
03:00:15 <AI_coder> Have I asked enough questions tonight?
03:01:40 <AI_coder> I've got another, what is a good word for assigning a bunch of pointers to every N-th interval of memory alloted?
03:02:02 <AI_coder> Just opinion and taste really...
03:02:51 <Quiznos> umm
03:03:05 <Quiznos> pigeon-hole?
03:03:16 <AI_coder> Ooh, I like that one.
03:03:18 <Quiznos> i'm seeing several things of that 
03:03:24 <Quiznos> look at these first
03:03:29 <AI_coder> It's better than my obj2mem name.
03:03:39 <Quiznos> pan (as in stirring a pan for gold or food)
03:03:51 <Quiznos> tilt
03:04:13 <Quiznos> wipe (as with the back of your hand on a pool table
03:04:21 <Quiznos> or swipe
03:04:26 <AI_coder> I don't get it.
03:04:44 <Quiznos> play pool and try to clear the table of the balls
03:05:07 <Quiznos> that movement with your hand is called swiping
03:05:22 <Quiznos> for a non-public word, i like pan
03:05:25 <AI_coder> The hand movement is too random though.
03:05:48 <AI_coder> I was thinking something a bit more organized, like pigeon hole or waspnest.
03:05:57 <Quiznos> oh, what's the name of that centrifugal "game" where you have to get the little balls into one hole and
03:06:07 <AI_coder> crossfire?
03:06:13 <Quiznos> you can only do it by spinning the little box that the balls are in
03:06:27 <Quiznos> it was shown in a movie with Matthew Broderick
03:06:31 <Quiznos> i think
03:06:43 <AI_coder> Not sure.
03:06:55 <Quiznos> tilt is a good word for the visual action
03:07:08 <Quiznos> go with "pan" then
03:07:16 <Quiznos> or pigeon-hole
03:07:34 <Quiznos> the ``nth'' part of your query brought that to mind
03:08:42 <AI_coder> I stumbled across an article on the net the other day that talked about a programmer when he first started working professionally, he was like, "After my coworkers threatened my life over naming incrementer variables things like dracula and coco-puff I decided i, j, and k would work."
03:08:56 <Quiznos> lol
03:19:24 <AI_coder> I just love the simple build up a line at a time approach of forth, C's subroutines were just to much for me, for that matter any other language also.
03:20:02 <AI_coder> Really lisp's nature is nice although they don't use rpn, instead they use )))))))
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03:21:08 <Quiznos> true, its veru condicive to actually thinking ;)
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04:41:42 <Quiznos> virl!!!
04:42:24 <virl> Quiznos!!!
04:42:37 <Quiznos> do you use the fasm asm'er?
04:43:50 <virl> ehm, no I don't 
04:43:54 <Quiznos> kk
05:05:41 <Quiznos> hullew, i'm a Quiznos and i'm writing a forth kernel.
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05:08:29 <virl> with nice funky features
05:08:48 <Quiznos> where?
05:08:58 <Quiznos> actually, i'm building up the vm part
05:09:13 <Quiznos> and adding cell value checking to it
05:13:27 <Quiznos> what are the two usual branch word names?
05:13:32 <Quiznos> branch and what?
05:13:45 <PoppaVic> qbranch?
05:14:01 <Quiznos> that must be new
05:14:08 <Quiznos> isnt there a branch0?
05:14:14 <PoppaVic> help if I knew what you wanted.
05:14:32 <Quiznos> i need to add the branch words for the conditional words
05:14:41 <Quiznos> like if
05:15:08 <PoppaVic> there are relative branches, absolute branches, and an alternate is to have a 'qbranch' that is conditional-branching
05:15:21 <PoppaVic> oh, the high-level??
05:16:23 <Quiznos> ok, i'll grep the ans and some src
05:17:28 <PoppaVic> I think the # of primitives is a _lot_ lower than the number of hi-level words (secondaries) that use them.
05:17:38 <Quiznos> this is true
05:19:23 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: I believe you might find that ans is not going to even suggest the "implementation" (asm-level) primitives
05:19:59 <Quiznos> yea taht i know; i've got the eforth src open too
05:20:06 <PoppaVic> ahh
05:20:12 <Quiznos> they're trivial words tho. so, nbd
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05:49:28 <Quiznos> PoppaVic does : branch IP@ IP! ; make sense?
05:49:43 <PoppaVic> that's a secondary?
05:50:02 <Quiznos> it would be a : word manipulating the vm
05:50:07 <PoppaVic> hmm
05:50:24 <PoppaVic> well, maybe it does to your vm?
05:50:30 <Quiznos> yea ok
05:51:05 <Quiznos> ax = TOS, and si is IP
05:51:18 <Quiznos> bp -> RP, SP = SP
05:51:23 <PoppaVic> doesn't help me any, of course ;-)
05:51:26 <Quiznos> ok
05:52:09 <PoppaVic> Also, recall that even "registers" is an oddity that varies between machines.
05:52:40 <Quiznos> true but i'm not writing to be platform portable.
05:52:45 <Quiznos> just within the family
05:54:06 <PoppaVic> actually, I was thinking about that too - sub "engine" for "machine"
05:54:26 <Quiznos> oh you mean the vm?
05:54:30 <PoppaVic> yah
05:54:33 <Quiznos> gotcha
05:56:01 <Quiznos> i think by using ax as tos, it makes certain words easier to code
06:05:08 <virl> wow..
06:05:24 <virl> Quiznos, your forth will be a ANS thing?
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06:48:07 <PoppaVic> Any luck, Quiznos ?
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08:04:14 <Quiznos> virl not intentionally, but only sofar as i'm comfortable.
08:04:30 <Quiznos> i'm not strictly anti-ans
08:04:54 <Quiznos> but i'm not going to stand in the way of making a kernel/sys that east to port to. 
08:05:11 <Quiznos> east/easy
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08:08:28 <rabbitwhite> hey
08:08:40 <Quiznos> he
08:08:44 <Quiznos> y
08:14:38 <rabbitwhite> lots of people
08:17:50 <rabbitwhite> noone talking
08:18:00 <juri_> yep.
08:18:00 <rabbitwhite> whats everyone working on?
08:18:12 <k4jcw> At least here, people answer questions.  Unlike the fscking twits in #samba, or #cygwin.
08:18:26 <rabbitwhite> oh
08:18:29 <rabbitwhite> wish i had a question :)
08:18:40 <rabbitwhite> lets see..
08:18:53 <juri_> i'm presently bickering with a PHD over my optimizations to his C program. "waah! your optimizations are obfuscating my research code! wheres your PHD?"
08:19:32 <rabbitwhite> damn
08:19:43 <rabbitwhite> i had a run in with an assembly programmer who tore up my code
08:20:06 <rabbitwhite> but, as it turns out, i realized that some (most) of his advice was valid
08:20:45 <rabbitwhite> i dont think its possible to obfuscate C
08:20:53 <k4jcw> You youngsters, today.  You think you know everything, and just because we've been doing it longer than you've been alive, you think you still know more than us.
08:21:29 <rabbitwhite> uh, how old are you?
08:21:40 <k4jcw> Dude.  You don't think it's possible to obfuscate C?  Have you ever looked at any C code?
08:21:43 <rabbitwhite> lol
08:21:45 <k4jcw> 40-something.
08:22:08 <Quiznos> juri_ [wah] lol
08:22:28 <Quiznos> k4jcw lol
08:22:45 <rabbitwhite> does anybody realize what i meant?
08:23:13 <rabbitwhite> wait wait
08:23:20 <rabbitwhite> ok, limitations of text
08:23:25 <rabbitwhite> i meant ... "any *further*"
08:25:22 * PoppaVic sighs
08:25:37 <PoppaVic> What I miss, doing groceries and debating shopping and politics?
08:27:23 <rabbitwhite> ok change xt
08:27:23 <rabbitwhite> <rabbitwhite> i meant ... "any *further*"
08:27:25 <rabbitwhite> whoa
08:27:47 * rabbitwhite shouldnt be allowed to use irc
08:27:53 <Quiznos> heh
08:29:21 <rabbitwhite> so has anyone gotten a programming job through intellasys?
08:30:22 <Quiznos> not i
08:30:32 * Quiznos sniffs 
08:30:38 <rabbitwhite> did you submit a resume?
08:30:53 <rabbitwhite> to them?
08:32:10 <Quiznos> nop
08:34:21 <rabbitwhite> ok random change of subject
08:34:26 <Quiznos> k
08:34:35 <PoppaVic> works for me ;-)
08:34:36 <rabbitwhite> this is for the room
08:34:48 * PoppaVic thought we'd beat C ;-)
08:34:49 <rabbitwhite> anyone use blocks and define words to access them 
08:34:53 <Quiznos> i smell an head-hunter
08:34:57 <rabbitwhite> like
08:35:04 <rabbitwhite> : word  x load ;
08:35:07 <rabbitwhite> or x constant word
08:35:13 <rabbitwhite> or even : word x y thru ;
08:35:14 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite what do you want?
08:35:21 <Quiznos> :)
08:35:38 <Quiznos> oops, did i let the cat out of the hat? :)~
08:36:11 <Quiznos> i'll be implementing blocks as a foundation in my kernel
08:36:24 <Quiznos> or i'll just copy someone's source code
08:36:25 <rabbitwhite> my GC forth uses blocks
08:36:31 <Quiznos> cool
08:36:41 <rabbitwhite> and i just wanted to learn about this technique 
08:36:50 <Quiznos> what tech?
08:36:56 <rabbitwhite> that is ... from seasoned, wizened forth programmers such as k4cjw ! :)
08:37:03 <rabbitwhite> what i just mentioned?
08:37:40 <rabbitwhite> defining blocks behind words
08:37:45 <Quiznos> gc, or blockage
08:37:46 <Quiznos> ah
08:40:49 <rabbitwhite> should i give it 20 minutes?
08:40:51 <PoppaVic> hmm?
08:41:01 <rabbitwhite> for an answer
08:41:04 <PoppaVic> what I miss, talking groceries and menues?
08:41:08 <Quiznos> one builds blocks from the bottom up
08:41:40 <PoppaVic> At some point, you take your "primitives" and need to start a "searchable vocabulary"
08:41:56 <PoppaVic> ..trust me, I've been avoiding it with other issues
08:42:29 <rabbitwhite> what are you TALKING about??
08:42:40 <PoppaVic> otoh, you CAN start with building "headers" and reference "primitives"
08:43:11 <rabbitwhite> what in the world?
08:43:15 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: blocks? bottom-up? wtf is *he* talking about?
08:43:21 <rabbitwhite> what does this have to do with my question?
08:43:43 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: please repost - rephrased.. The wife just left the goddamned room
08:43:54 <Quiznos> i duno Vic
08:44:20 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: trying to talk, and handle the Family Issues... It was getting ugly.
08:44:34 <Quiznos> PoppaVic he wrote `blocks behind (i read that as "after") words'
08:44:40 <Quiznos> PoppaVic i noticed
08:44:58 <rabbitwhite> all i wanted to know were the circumstances under which other people have "named" their blocks by defining words in the auto-load screen (in standard block 1)
08:45:02 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: It looks like Mom is not going to be here for Christmas.
08:45:08 <Quiznos> ok
08:45:18 <PoppaVic> "named" FILE-blocks??
08:45:21 <Quiznos> that's a long time to go home
08:45:28 <rabbitwhite> what?! poppavic, come on.
08:46:07 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: if yer talking about "named file-blocks", fine - they are CONSTANTS.
08:46:18 <rabbitwhite> ...
08:46:24 <PoppaVic> if the filepathnamespec is an issue, that's ANOTHER constant
08:46:34 <rabbitwhite> someone else??
08:46:42 <PoppaVic> why you'd want all these things drifting out in the open is beyond me
08:46:45 <Quiznos> a named-block's value is the number of the block that the code sits on
08:47:19 * rabbitwhite is speechless
08:47:27 <Quiznos> why?
08:47:51 <rabbitwhite> because, you guys have obviously ignored the examples i already posted about a page up in this channel
08:48:06 <rabbitwhite> my question wasn't HOW to do it
08:48:10 <Quiznos> how big is a page?
08:48:17 <rabbitwhite> it doesn't matter!!!
08:48:35 <Quiznos> wel, `thru' is familar
08:48:44 <rabbitwhite> so??
08:48:55 <rabbitwhite> you know forth right?
08:48:58 <Quiznos> yes
08:49:03 <PoppaVic> a page is not a block
08:49:14 <Quiznos> heh, an irc page length
08:49:31 <PoppaVic> a 'thru' is not a list, address or any other fucking thing: it's contextual.
08:49:50 <Quiznos> thru is a looping word for load
08:49:51 <PoppaVic> if you mean "the word" - THAT tells you what you want
08:50:06 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: yeah, I recall it.
08:50:13 <Quiznos> Leo defined it
08:50:25 <rabbitwhite> who's leo??
08:50:37 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: maybe rabbitwhite is redefining it?
08:50:41 <Quiznos> Brodie, author of _thinking forth_
08:50:45 <rabbitwhite> RE-defining it??
08:50:52 <PoppaVic> also of "STarting Forth"
08:50:53 <Quiznos> PoppaVic i dont think he is
08:50:53 <rabbitwhite> i have the book
08:50:57 <Quiznos> good
08:51:00 <PoppaVic> great.
08:51:13 <rabbitwhite> but i didnt use his definition, if that's what you're talking about
08:51:17 <rabbitwhite> why would i??
08:51:19 <PoppaVic> So, a "page" is not a "block" - a "block" is not a file.
08:51:23 <Quiznos> oh.
08:51:30 <rabbitwhite> poppavic are you insane
08:51:40 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: yer pushing me there, yes.
08:51:48 <Quiznos> PoppaVic "page" was my reference to his referal to code he wrote a few mins ago
08:51:56 <PoppaVic> ahh
08:52:21 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: what are you using, where, and what is your goal.
08:52:24 <Quiznos> PoppaVic go outside for a few mins :)
08:52:34 <Quiznos> get some air or smog or whatever :)
08:52:49 <PoppaVic> ok, I'll spin back to C and then my code - holler
08:53:10 <Quiznos> later
08:53:53 <rabbitwhite> all i wanted to know was why and when people used this general technique.
08:54:16 <Quartus> shorthand, rabbitwhite
08:54:19 <Quiznos> blocks are for when one doesnt wnt to use the host-os'
08:54:21 <Quiznos> oops
08:54:26 <rabbitwhite> quiznos
08:54:30 <Quiznos> blocks are for when one doesnt wnt to use the host-os's file system, or
08:54:31 <rabbitwhite> i programmed a native forth for the gamecube
08:54:35 <Quiznos> ok
08:54:49 <rabbitwhite> i have been using blocks since ... about march
08:54:54 <rabbitwhite> why are you explaining what blocks are to me
08:55:00 <PoppaVic> Very few folks deal with block-files anymore.. If they do, it's usually for a form of "database"
08:55:08 <rabbitwhite> poppavic! there are no files!
08:55:33 <PoppaVic> if there are no files, there is no issue. Now.. "What is a 'block'?"
08:55:42 <rabbitwhite> are you asking me?
08:56:00 <rabbitwhite> how old are you?
08:56:02 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite i think the difficulty we're having is that we dont know what your context is in asking about blocks
08:56:04 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: really, this is just useless.
08:56:14 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite age is irrelevent; i'm 4 ;)
08:56:20 <rabbitwhite> not it isnt!
08:56:24 <Quiznos> ok
08:56:27 <rabbitwhite> poppavic strikes me as a name an older man might use
08:56:32 <rabbitwhite> i was just confirming my suspicion
08:56:35 <Quiznos> so what?
08:56:39 <Quiznos> it doesnt matter
08:56:55 <rabbitwhite> yes it does
08:56:56 <Quiznos> interpersonal skills are not limited to inteligent people :)
08:56:58 <Quiznos> heh
08:57:05 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: look, in forth a 'block' is a 1K stretch of mem that reflects a PART of a file.. Now, wtf are you talking about?
08:57:33 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: I wasn't raised to give them a "time out" - I believe in carrots and clubs ;-)
08:57:34 <rabbitwhite> poppavic ... congratulations, you know what a block is ... 
08:57:51 <Quiznos> PoppaVic ah
08:57:59 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite we all know
08:58:00 <PoppaVic> you just told me it wasn't a goddamned file
08:58:22 <rabbitwhite> well ... 
08:58:28 <PoppaVic> well my ass
08:58:33 <rabbitwhite> you could say it is a file, but my Forth doesnt have a filesystem
08:58:40 <PoppaVic> I asked you to rephrase & clarify
08:58:55 <PoppaVic> I could say it's the fucking MOON and be more clear
08:59:06 <Quartus> rabbitwhite, if I understand your question, the examples you gave are just shorthand techniques.
08:59:20 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: is he asking about RAM buffers?
09:00:00 <Quiznos> blocks are or can be in-ram only or loaded from a storage device
09:00:35 <rabbitwhite> quartus ... i know that, but i also know that they are also used to enable a user to move components around without affecting other components
09:00:35 <PoppaVic> are we back to "what size and where from"?
09:00:40 <rabbitwhite> poppavic just dont talk
09:00:58 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite ah hah! more detail!
09:01:02 <Quiznos> ok... umm
09:01:02 <PoppaVic> rabbitwhite: then ignore me, fuck yah
09:01:17 <Quiznos> PoppaVic yea, "size matters"
09:01:20 <Quiznos> heh
09:01:41 <Quartus> rabbitwhite, I'm not sure I follow.
09:01:49 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite just define the required words and let the user worry about "transhing blocks"
09:01:51 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: naahh - technique should matter more, butt.. "mine is bigger than yers!" is common
09:02:02 <Quiznos> heh
09:02:11 <Quiznos> mine is simpler than yours
09:02:14 <rabbitwhite> i'm not going to persue this question any fruther
09:02:17 <Quiznos> bahahahaa
09:02:17 <rabbitwhite> *further
09:02:21 <Quiznos> farther?
09:02:22 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: I like that, too
09:02:28 <rabbitwhite> quiznos: WHATEVER!!
09:02:34 <Quiznos> yea yea sure sure
09:03:45 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: so, the insanity was his... I feel better.
09:04:01 <Quiznos> lack of proper DBU i think
09:04:06 <Quiznos> lol
09:04:19 <rabbitwhite> what is dbu?
09:04:22 * Quiznos sighs that the presure is off me
09:04:26 <Quiznos> ``define before use''
09:04:32 <Quiznos> a commone feature of languages
09:04:35 <Quiznos> one/on
09:04:39 <PoppaVic> It's almost funny, but you have to wonder wtf they are learning from and to do..
09:05:04 <Quiznos> well that's that new fangled 100 year old "public ejumacation" religion
09:05:05 <Quiznos> :)
09:05:14 <Quiznos> actually, bout 130 years now
09:05:16 <rabbitwhite> what are you talking about
09:05:37 <Quiznos> nuttin in general
09:05:42 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: worse, they seem to (sometimes) pay for school, or they read, and they never learned some basics.
09:05:54 <Quiznos> that's the porpose
09:06:02 <rabbitwhite> wait ... does this have anything to do with me
09:06:28 <Quiznos> inteligent people get really bored and fidgity doing work than can be auto-reptetitive
09:06:32 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite nop
09:07:07 <rabbitwhite> wow, ok. 
09:07:52 <rabbitwhite> ristmas.
09:07:52 <rabbitwhite> <Quiznos> ok
09:07:53 <Quiznos> rabbitwhite stay and loiter and figer out who each of us is
09:07:54 <rabbitwhite> uhkj;c\
09:08:04 <rabbitwhite> huh?
09:08:18 <rabbitwhite> figure out who you are?
09:08:21 <Quiznos> be a regular visitor here
09:08:29 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: are they still promoting "starting forth" as the textbook for forths?
09:08:39 <Quiznos> wouldnt know.
09:08:48 <PoppaVic> ...is there nothing more than getting to "thinking forth"?
09:08:48 <Quiznos> it is posted online tho
09:09:17 <PoppaVic> I think there are a whoole lot of issues going on
09:09:28 <Quiznos> in what?
09:09:40 <PoppaVic> learning about forth(s)
09:09:48 <Quiznos> ah
09:10:14 <Quiznos> it can be a deprogramming of sorts to those who learned other languages first
09:10:28 <PoppaVic> I can understand taking some expectations to the the "forth-table", but sheesh- it doesn't reflect.
09:10:42 <Quiznos> i learned Forth early on before really knowing basic on a ][+
09:10:58 <PoppaVic> yeah, my background was mixed even worse
09:12:25 <PoppaVic> I do keep chuckling, when I think of all the anti-C screams and lack of a purely "asm" or "forth" or "lisp" OS that is also "portable" ;-)
09:12:46 <Quiznos> asm cant be in that list
09:12:53 <PoppaVic> well, at least we had CP/M ;-)
09:12:58 <Quiznos> heh
09:13:30 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: sure it can - there *IS* no "asm" - there are umpty Asm for umpty platforms and umpty machines.
09:13:53 <Quiznos> yea
09:14:15 <PoppaVic> It's almost hillarious, after awhile of hearing the screams.
09:14:42 <Quiznos> wear earplugs
09:15:02 <PoppaVic> Nah, after awhile, it triggers the pleasure-centers
09:15:11 <Quiznos> lol
09:15:17 <Quiznos> sadistically?
09:15:23 <PoppaVic> yeppers
09:15:34 <Quiznos> i wouldnt know about those
09:16:23 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: well, there has been plenty of time to see "the alternative" - and frankly, they don't exist. - and folks then STILL layer stupidly.
09:17:04 <Quiznos> alternative is usually just based on incorrect opinion tho 
09:17:25 <PoppaVic> that's fine - so "show me" - don't berate me.
09:17:58 <Quiznos> ok
09:18:20 <PoppaVic> basically, every platform= N-cpu+devices+Extensible OS, etc..
09:19:58 <PoppaVic> In the last... oh, 30 years: I have yet to see a collection of fanatics write a forthish or asmish platform and supports that will work all over - it's a hellish issue, but everyone sees their unique tools as Right.
09:20:56 <PoppaVic> And, most of the screamers have some ONE axe to grind - or a job to do.
09:22:53 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: anyway, the time is ripe, and folks are screaming all over - but there are still no real solutions.. SOOOoo, we just "deal with it".
09:22:57 <Quiznos> well, the net is for agregrating all stuff; it's quite congruent to what John Smith wrote in his _Wealth of Nations_ in 1776
09:23:14 <Quiznos> when he referred to the "invisible hand of God"
09:23:21 <PoppaVic> bahh
09:24:05 <Quartus> Quiznos, take it over to #icantstoptalkingaboutjesus, will ya?
09:24:09 <PoppaVic> God has no issue here. Some clown coded the cpu, the bios and another plugged in the devices.
09:24:31 <Quiznos> well, if you cant see "it" that's not my difficulty
09:24:39 <PoppaVic> hehehaha
09:25:24 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: if I want god-speak, I'll talk to Ma' - She's heading that way to the exclusion of bathing and eating, for cripesakes.
09:25:47 <Quiznos> yea well, lack of proper speaking will do that to everyone.
09:25:55 <PoppaVic> Meanwhile. Someone sets a machine in front of you - and you need to program it.
09:26:09 <Quiznos> just tell me the specs
09:26:15 <PoppaVic> bah
09:28:19 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: we were BELOW the specs, into the does/reports shit. And you are still thinking of multiple specs for multiple asm and multiple os and multiple "machines"
09:28:49 <Quiznos> not me, but everyone has to translate from cpu to cpu when writing asm code
09:28:52 <PoppaVic> A mechanic is not really an engineer.
09:29:03 <Quiznos> we're called geeks
09:29:07 <PoppaVic> I like to compare them, but that's just "reality"
09:29:18 <k4jcw> Not the one *I* live in.
09:29:38 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: WHY does all this 'translation" take place?
09:29:59 <Quiznos> bc no two or more people think alike except on the macro level
09:30:22 <Quiznos> but not withstanding that, agreement happens
09:30:30 <PoppaVic> ahh... So, you ain't seen enough pain, or you've had too much pleasure. Got it.
09:30:43 <Quiznos> not applicable to mme
09:30:55 <PoppaVic> it certainly is
09:31:11 <Quiznos> as you said so also is reality different than yours
09:31:19 <PoppaVic> there *IS NO "asm"*
09:31:22 <Quiznos> as also evidenced by what Quartus just posted
09:31:48 <PoppaVic> Quartus and I disagree a lot, I don't much care in this context
09:31:54 <Quiznos> sure there is; it is someone's interpretation of what the textual representation of the machine code should look like
09:32:33 <PoppaVic> ahh.. Not tight enough.. And remember how forths work versus "shells" and "processes" and "filters".
09:32:41 <Quiznos> afa C is concerned, it's supposed to be a high level assembler with a better symbol table
09:33:19 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: C'ers flame me for that all the time, but I tend to think yer more right then they are.
09:33:42 <Quiznos> and there have been several attempts to genericise asm text and symbology going back decades
09:33:49 <Quiznos> well, it is what C is.
09:33:50 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: think forths... think FFI
09:34:00 <PoppaVic> I tend to agree
09:34:10 <Quiznos> ffi is interesting, perhaps i'll get to it
09:34:24 <PoppaVic> it's ugly and makes me want to scream
09:34:37 <Quiznos> but it's got to be really simple when translated to or forthified
09:34:47 <PoppaVic> It's not.
09:34:50 <Quiznos> dll via libdl is the same way for me
09:35:30 <PoppaVic> I think the final proofs are: lisp - preceeding Forth - just builds it's own binaries and ignores the system.
09:35:33 <Quiznos> well, for what little i unerstand about ffi, it's all about fiddling with the function signatures 
09:35:39 <Quiznos> true
09:35:55 <Quiznos> but it does do ffi and libdl from what i've seen
09:35:58 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: so, ask yerself WHY - at many levels
09:36:06 <Quiznos> variety is the spice of life
09:36:10 <Quiznos> and coding
09:36:25 <PoppaVic> I don't need spice in my code - only my chow.
09:36:37 <k4jcw> Purina PoppaVic Chow
09:37:07 <Quiznos> heh
09:37:37 <PoppaVic> If you can't visualize this, then try to visualize a uniform make/compile
09:37:49 <k4jcw> Visualize Whirled Peas.
09:38:04 <PoppaVic> yeah, k: I already know yer a dit
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09:38:29 <Quiznos> heh
09:38:38 <Quiznos> ok forth-mode:
09:38:43 <PoppaVic> anyway, time to start thinking about dinner... Tootles.
09:38:47 <Quiznos> k
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09:38:57 <Quiznos> poppavic just left
09:39:00 <Quiznos> for dinner
09:41:29 <Quartus> You mean "dinner", and that's "interpreted" because some people prefer "lunch" and can't "agree" on what a "meal" should be "called".
09:41:52 <Quiznos> it's the word he used
09:43:43 <Quartus> What an astonishing load of nonsense.  Between his incoherent blather and you trying to sell copies of the WatchTower, newcomers to the channel won't stay long. Congratulations on that, it's an effective deterrent.
09:44:29 <k4jcw> You should change your sig to "go #forth and *"
09:46:01 <Quiznos> Quartus your hatred is apparent and ineffective.  I have NOT harmed you. you just hate the mention of our father in heaven and love and that's your difficulty, not mine.
09:46:43 <Quartus> Pal, it's flat out inappropriate for you to peddle your faith in this channel.  Take it somewhere appropriate.
09:46:43 <Quiznos> and btw, no one except PoppaVic has left and he's a regular.
09:46:54 <Quiznos> you are not the boss of me.
09:53:01 <k4jcw> No, but he is the op of the channel.
09:56:59 <juri_> mememe! can i be the boss of everyone?
09:57:47 <juri_> i'm a newcomer. and i dont even know forth yet. ;)
09:58:06 <Quartus> Have you had a chance to do any investigation along those lines yet?
09:58:29 <juri_> yep. and reading channel traffic has been most enlightening, as well.
09:59:06 <Quartus> Good. Anything specific that caught your eye?
09:59:08 <juri_> it dosent help that i started hanging out here right when i started working 80+ hours a week. ;)
09:59:44 <juri_> yea. some guy's been coming in the last few days talking about image transforms in forth, converting a C program. i'm real interested to see what he comes up with.
09:59:48 <rabbitwhite> sounds like a bad time to be starting forth ...
10:00:42 <Quartus> As I recall he's trying to learn Forth while also converting a C program; that's an unfortunate combination.
10:15:30 <juri_> so, he's doing what i would be doing, if i had the time to do it. sucks to be...
10:16:49 <Quartus> It's always hard to attempt a translation that sort; laterally translated code from C to Forth is horrible, and it's harder to unravel it into decent Forth than it would be to write it in Forth to start with.  So that approach makes the mountain considerably steeper to climb.
10:17:16 <juri_> if it helps, the code i'd be converting was origionally writen in fortran! :P
10:17:31 <Quartus> Doesn't help, despite the first letter being F. :)
10:17:33 <rabbitwhite> oh yeah, that'll help ;)
10:17:55 <juri_> fortran.. forth... whats the difference? a few pesky letters, thats all. ;P
10:17:59 <Quartus> heh
10:18:08 <rabbitwhite> doesn't Chuck condemn Fortran ?
10:18:26 <Quartus> I haven't heard him do that.  He started with Fortran, if I recall his history.
10:18:44 <rabbitwhite> i know, but i'd like to know what he thinks of it now ...
10:18:49 <juri_> i actually found a bright gleeming spot in fortran, when trying to convert the code. fortran represented mathematic functions better than C does...
10:18:54 <Quartus> I don't think he uses anything but his own tools, not for years.
10:19:31 <Quartus> juri_, you might be interested to look at the formula translators available for Forth, they turn infix forumlas into RPN.
10:19:53 <rabbitwhite> i think he should just jump in and start practicing
10:20:01 <Quartus> One is Julian Noble's FORmula TRANslator, another is Wil Baden's OPG (Operator Precedence Grammar).
10:20:43 <juri_> rab: i'm insanely busy at the moment, so i'm just sorta a bystander. ;)
10:21:07 <juri_> 80+ hours of work, and optimizing a image recognition engine in my spare time...
10:21:22 <juri_> eventually, i'll learn the language. :)
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10:59:32 <virl> a bad time for learning forth? hmm, I tend to agree. Bescause I try to show it to other people and there are some interesting stumble stones, when you understand what I mean.
10:59:50 <Quartus> He means because she just started working long hours.
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11:21:35 <virl> oh..
11:34:36 <virl> is it part of the ANS forth standard, that wordnames like HELLO, HeLlO or hello are all the same word?
11:35:10 <Quartus> No.  Standard systems can be either case-sensitive or case-insensitive.  All the Standard requires is that all Standard words be findable by at least their UPPERCASE versions.
11:36:37 <Quartus> So if a system claims standard compliance, you know that, for instance, DUP will work.  dup may also work, but you can rely on DUP.
11:37:05 <rabbitwhite> some standard
11:37:20 <Quartus> The ANS/ISO Forth standard.
11:38:22 <virl> well well.. then when I define a word Haha and then haha which do different things then this simple convention makes a forth program not portable. ehm.. really a good standard..
11:38:46 <rabbitwhite> thanks for clarifying my point for me :)
11:39:01 <Quartus> If you do that in a Standard program, you need to declare a dependency on case-sensitivity in the program.
11:39:43 <virl> and how does that look like?
11:40:03 <Quartus> In documentation provided with the program, often in the form of comments at the top.
11:40:27 <virl> aha.. ok..
11:41:42 <Quartus> http://quartus.net/dpans/dpans4.htm#4.2 , note "- using lower case for standard definition names or depending on the case sensitivity of a system".
11:41:48 <virl> rabbitwhite, how is your stuff going on?
11:46:04 <rabbitwhite> well i was inspired by reading and thinking about machine forth and seaforth and i realized my system's worldview was too complex so currently i'm in the process of going back and simplifying the language and fixing some issues to make the job of programming in the environment simpler
11:47:56 <virl> Quartus, so standard definitions = lowercase
11:49:00 <virl> rabbitwhite, what's your approach to flow control?
11:49:45 <rabbitwhite> not sure what you mean.  maybe you can help me understand by telling me what your approach is.
11:50:08 <virl> do you have ifs? loops?
11:50:13 <Quartus> virl, I'm not sure what you mean by 'standard definitions = lowercase'
11:50:52 <segher_> only uppercase is standard
11:51:03 <virl> ok..
11:51:25 <Quartus> For the Standard set of words, they must be findable in UPPERCASE.  New definitions can be uppercase or lowercase; whether the dictionary search is case-sensitive is up to the implementation.
11:51:32 <rabbitwhite> virl: yes for both
11:52:00 <virl> rabbitwhite, do you have something like this: 1 2 =if <code> then?
11:52:12 <rabbitwhite> no
11:52:42 <virl> so what do you have?
11:52:48 <rabbitwhite> currently to do what you typed:  1 2 xor 0if drop ... then
11:53:32 <virl> hmm...
11:53:59 <virl> cool
11:54:03 <rabbitwhite> but i'm interested in minimizing if's so i'm in the process of evaluating 0if 
11:54:46 <rabbitwhite> oops, i gotta change computers 
11:54:50 <rabbitwhite> (they want me upstairs)
11:55:20 <rabbitwhite> back soon.
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11:57:08 <virl> it's so interesting gforth, bigforth or kforth don't have something like case sensitive definitions.
11:58:00 --- nick: segher_ -> segher
11:58:05 <Quartus> Gforth has a facility for setting up case-sensitive wordlists.  I think they're called tables.
11:58:27 <Quartus> Many modern systems are case-insensitive.
11:58:56 <virl> I assume that yours is also insensitive
11:59:21 <Quartus> Quartus Forth is case-insensitive.
12:00:09 <virl> it's imho a horrible fact.
12:00:53 <virl> so a beginner can write HELLO, hello or HeLlo and then ask himself why the hell always the same word gets executed.
12:01:28 <virl> it would be nice when the systems would cry about it and not let him pass.
12:03:48 <virl> and when I see the bigforth source then I get sick. when an experienced forth coder uses lowercase characters in a system which seems to make no difference between that then we have a problem.
12:07:14 <virl> same happens to gforth 
12:07:16 <virl> poor
12:07:38 <Quartus> Some people, like you, prefer a case-sensitive system.  Some don't.
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12:09:44 <Quartus> My strong preference is for a case-insensitive system, and I prefer the use of lowercase for Standard words.
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12:12:43 <virl> I don't like the idea that someone writes a program in forth with case-sensitive names for a system which doesn't support them, but lets them through and then a bunch of strange things happens.
12:13:27 <virl> sry, but I think ans isn't the solution
12:14:19 <TreyB> Once you give up ANS-compatibility, you can pretty much do what you want.  Have at it.
12:15:08 <Quartus__> so you think all Forth systems should be forced to be case-sensitive, because that's what you prefer?
12:15:22 <rabbitwhite> lol
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12:16:31 <rabbitwhite> he probably just means that he thinks a standard shouldn't leave certain things to whim
12:17:18 <Quartus__> the standard leaves as much implementation freedom as possible, which is a good thing.
12:17:47 <rabbitwhite> but i agree with virl that the case sensitivity allowance seems to create a problem
12:18:11 <rabbitwhite> not that it matters much - i mean does anyone actually take advantage of the standard?
12:19:08 <Quartus__> I'm with Moore on the idea that you should be able to read Forth over the telephone and have it understood. Using the same name differing only by shifted characters runs counter to that.
12:19:37 <rabbitwhite> well what about context?
12:19:55 <Quartus__> rabbitwhite, absolutely. Commercial Forth vendors do, Gforth does. I write code to run in multiple Standard systems.
12:20:06 <rabbitwhite> ... no ... i meant in speech
12:20:21 <rabbitwhite> i'm just trying to think of an example.
12:20:33 <rabbitwhite> well, no wait, right there - the word "just"
12:20:46 <rabbitwhite> has ... what, 3 different meanings - depending on how you use it?
12:20:54 <Quartus__> I was responding to your question about anyone taking advantage of the standard.
12:21:02 <rabbitwhite> ohh oops - lag
12:21:38 * rabbitwhite rethinks that ... maybe it wasnt lag just not putting things together lol
12:21:48 <Quartus__> What does context have to do with the difference between JUST and just?
12:22:22 <rabbitwhite> well, just and JUST sound the same spoken.
12:22:49 <Quartus__> exactly my point.
12:22:57 <rabbitwhite> no, that's MY point
12:23:17 <rabbitwhite> just can mean 1)right/good 2)almost or 3)only
12:23:31 <rabbitwhite> the only way you know is context
12:23:47 <Quartus__> which has what to do with upper/lowecase?
12:23:49 <TreyB> ANS-Forth defines the context.
12:23:50 <rabbitwhite> so, i argue that case insens. does not benefit spoken forth that much.
12:24:13 <rabbitwhite> because, you're saying that just and JUST is a bad thing because they sound the same spoken!
12:24:34 <rabbitwhite> dindt you just basically imply that by saying forth should be able to be spoken?
12:25:09 <Quartus__> yes. There's no audible semantic difference, so case-sensitivity would impair the communication.
12:25:45 <rabbitwhite> quartus.  please don't take offense ... but, i dont want to lose respect for your intelligence.  read or think again what i said about words having different meanings.
12:26:17 <TreyB> To paraphrase the Mozilla folks:  We spell it "@", but we say "fetch".
12:26:59 <Quartus__> rabbit, it's clear there's a gap in our mutual understanding, but frankly I don't have any concern for your estimate of my intelligence. If you'd like to discuss it without the attack, that'd be fine.
12:27:20 <TreyB> rabbitwhite: the same cased word may have different meanings in ANS-Forth, depending on the search order :-)
12:29:30 <TreyB> I, for one, would have prefered that ANS-Forth mandated lower-case instead of upper-case for systems that care about sensitivity but that represents my general aversion to using the shift key for programming language "primatives".
12:30:49 <rabbitwhite> quartus, smart or not smart, i'll say my point - logically, since the word "just" can have 3 different meanings in spoken English, the fact that "just" and "JUST" can have their 2 different meanings in spoken Forth yet sound the same is probably not a problem because in the same way that a person can distinguish the seperate meanings of English "just" easily by context, i have a feeling that "just" and "JUST" could easily be distinguished by the fact th
12:31:10 <juri_> be nice people.
12:31:43 <juri_> and stop selling copies of the watchtower. religion and irc dont go together in programming channels. ;)
12:31:56 <TreyB> heh
12:34:09 <virl> who sells copies of the watchtower?
12:34:36 <juri_> (i was refering to quizno's earlier religious content)
12:35:03 <rabbitwhite> i'm sorry guys.  i didn't mean to get worked up
12:35:16 <rabbitwhite> arguing about case sensitivity is silly
12:35:41 <rabbitwhite> and old :)
12:36:25 <rabbitwhite> i'm sure *someone* agrees with me there ..
12:36:42 <virl> rabbitwhite, yes it's old and stupid.
12:37:17 <virl> today there isn't a relict like case insensitive programming languages.
12:38:12 <TreyB> virl: VisualBasic retains its case-insensitivity, but has a case-preserving editor.
12:38:15 <Quartus__> in fact the trend for forth is toward case insensitivity. 
12:38:33 <rabbitwhite> well, that's nice
12:39:58 <TreyB> The primary issue with case-insensitivity comes from non-Western languages and UNICODE support.
12:40:26 <TreyB> You *can* do it, but it makes comparisons more compilcated.
12:41:29 <virl> I think case insensitivity is important in a system which supports it
12:41:43 <virl> it's completly pragmatic
12:43:49 <TreyB> On systems with enough resources, you can do whatever you like.
12:43:50 <segher> virl: but important for compatibility, which is why only uppercase is standard (for standard-defined words)
12:44:34 <TreyB> I understand why they chose upper case, but I do wish they'd chosen lower case instead :-)
12:44:47 <rabbitwhite> ok, i am officially never going to talk about case sensitivity again.  starting now.
12:44:58 <rabbitwhite> discuss away, guys
12:45:16 <TreyB> Without our foil?  Never mind :-)
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12:57:29 <virl> I think everybody should write their programs in whatever they want. so I think it's stupid
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13:01:54 <virl> and btw. who dictates his program over a telephone?
13:03:09 <rabbitwhite> i haven't done it yet.. but i can see it.  especially if i were working on a team project remotely.
13:04:18 <rabbitwhite> maybe moorse code is the solution
13:04:38 <rabbitwhite> "moore"s code
13:04:42 <rabbitwhite> get it
13:08:44 <virl> sry, but I disagree
13:08:57 <rabbitwhite> with my moores code? 
13:09:15 <virl> yeah or morse code
13:09:41 <juri_> actually, i've done a lot of one-liners over the phone.
13:09:46 <rabbitwhite> wow, tough crowd..
13:10:10 <TreyB> Badump bump!
13:10:27 <rabbitwhite> juri youve worked in forth team projects?
13:10:59 <rabbitwhite> @treyb thank you
13:12:34 <juri_> nope. i dont program in forth. :P
13:12:41 <virl> rabbitwhite, she can't when not coding in forth
13:13:01 <virl> juri_, so which one liners did you? =) in which language?
13:13:07 <juri_> i've written good one-liners on the phone in shell and C. ;)
13:13:17 <rabbitwhite> god, i forgot she was the one learning forth
13:14:08 <virl> interesting she did one liners in languages which support case-sensitivity oh my god! she can't be right.. *sarcastic*
13:15:20 <juri_> yea, but i didnt use case sensitivity in the one-liners. ;P
13:17:11 <virl> but you don't wrote them in uppercase..
13:18:09 <AI_coder> Is it just me or is gforth buggy?
13:18:33 <AI_coder> Depending on the order that I name words it seems as though they get forgotten.
13:19:01 <virl> perhaps..
13:19:03 <AI_coder> *the terminal*:42: Undefined word
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13:21:56 <AI_coder> Ah, the problem seems to be with defining words then calling words then defining more words.
13:22:38 <AI_coder> The memory alloted seems to disappear when you call words...
13:22:44 <AI_coder> That's odd
13:24:29 <AI_coder> Now it's forgetting another variable, has anyone had any problem with this?
13:28:12 <Quartus__> dictionary lookup in gforth has never had a bur report, as far as I know. If you're getting 'undefined word' errors, odds are good the words are undefined.
13:28:28 <Quartus__> Bug report, rather. Sorry, mobile keyboard.
13:29:21 <AI_coder> Quartus__: It's 100 % reproducable...
13:30:39 <Quartus__> ok. That doesn't make it a bug in the compiler necessarily. Can you paste the relevant code?
13:31:02 <AI_coder> I just put the executable code after all the definitions and the definitions that are in the SAME order when the executable is in between them as it is when the executable is after them it will forget or not.
13:31:53 <AI_coder> Sure
13:31:58 <AI_coder> Let me sanitize it
13:32:16 <Quartus__> I don't know what you mean by executable code vs. definitions, here. It would help to see the offending code.
13:34:00 <AI_coder> Hold on isolating it to just one small segment of code.
13:35:38 <Quartus__> there's a pastebin at http://retroforth.net/paste
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13:37:10 <Quartus__> what did I miss?
13:38:06 <AI_coder> nothing
13:39:00 <Quartus__> this client times out if I go out of radio-communication range for more than a minute. Annoying.
13:39:49 <AI_coder> http://retroforth.net/paste/
13:39:55 <AI_coder> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=138
13:40:42 <AI_coder> The ^^^^ should point underneath defos
13:40:59 <AI_coder> Not abc_per_defo it must have been misaligned when I pasted it.
13:41:48 <Quartus__> that code is nothing short of bizarre, AI. You're coding by ticking words and copying the xts into memory?
13:42:22 <AI_coder> Quartus__: xt's are no different than function pointers...
13:43:09 <AI_coder> They occupy one AU, they should operate just the same as any other word or integer.
13:43:32 <Quartus__> True as that may be, you're doing what you're doing in the hardest possible way.  I suspect at some point you're overwriting critical info, and thus gorching the dictionary search, but I'll need to unravel this to figure that out.
13:43:39 <AI_coder> Now if you put the "' mod ' + ' - ' * ' / ' noop ' dup ' drop
13:43:39 <AI_coder> fillabc" at the end the bug is gone.
13:44:09 <AI_coder> Quartus__: Nothing is hard, it's actually very easy in forth to accomplish what I want.
13:44:23 <AI_coder> I would have used lisp but even there it is more difficult than I want to use.
13:44:37 <AI_coder> C or any other language would be near impossible.
13:44:51 <Quartus__> I'm serious, you're doing this the very hardest way possible.
13:45:01 <AI_coder> Quartus__: Do you know what I want to do?
13:45:44 <Quartus__> Overall, no. In terms of what that snippet represents, you can achieve that far more simply.  What is your grand design?
13:45:52 <AI_coder> That is a rhetorical question, I'm asking it because you're making simple minded dogmatic statements that have no support.
13:46:17 <juri_> wow. you people need a babysitter.
13:46:32 <AI_coder> Quartus__: Actually no it can't and secondly I can't really discuss it because it's not a public program.
13:47:00 <Quartus__> ok AI. Good luck then.
13:47:07 <AI_coder> Thanks
13:47:19 <AI_coder> Tell me when you fix the bug.
13:51:21 <TreyB> XT's take a cell, you've only allot'd 8 bytes.
13:51:26 <Quartus__> is it possible that's meant to be a lookup table?
13:51:55 <TreyB> 8 cells constant n_abc
13:52:27 <TreyB> fillabc then stomps on the dictionary, as Quartus__  said, removing your ability to find it.
13:52:38 <Quartus__> if it's a table of xts you want, simpler is: create foo ' mod , ' * , ' / ,  etc.
13:53:16 <TreyB> Quartus__: That requires too little effort :-)
13:54:02 <Quartus__> , is the word and concept you want. Writes a value to HERE and increments HERE past it.
13:58:41 <Quartus__> the ability to quckly lay up data structures like that (with create and , and friends) is one of Forth's strengths.
14:01:32 <Quartus__> it really shines when you use that facility to compute values at compile-time.
14:13:13 <Quartus__> here's equivalent code to create and populate abc: http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=139
14:13:51 <Quartus__> hopefully I got all the xts there, I'm working on a tiny gadget.
14:16:04 <Quartus__> so you can eliminate fillabc, and also the allot for it.  I see in your code that you need cells as a multiplier for your allots, or as Trey says, only address units are allotted.
14:16:39 <Quartus__> cells in gforth are 32-bit, four bytes, so cells is an equivalent 4 * operation.
14:41:27 <Quartus__> treyB, your nick is familiar for some reason.
14:44:36 <Quartus__> oh, ex Palm/BE, right?
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14:47:11 <TreyB> Right.
14:49:14 <TreyB> I left PSI and got a job integrating a forth interpreter into a statistics/data-gathering package for cell phones.
14:49:34 <Quartus__> neat.
14:49:35 <TreyB> They actaully *pay* me to write forth code :-)  Suckers.
14:49:55 <Quartus__> good times.
14:50:00 <TreyB> I'd have done it for fun :-)
14:50:02 <k4jcw> Can you go into more detail?
14:50:12 <Quartus__> heh. Keep that quiet.
14:50:17 <k4jcw> I.e, does the package actually run on a phone?
14:50:34 <k4jcw> Or why would they choose to integrate a Forth interpreter into the package, rather than writing the package in Forth?
14:51:29 <TreyB> The package gets integrated by the phone manufactures to instrument the handset for all kinds of data collection: app usage, signal strength, etc.
14:52:11 <TreyB> The forth interpreter lets us build dynamic, customizable filters to streamline the data collection process.
14:52:26 <Quartus__> do they actually publicize that it's Forth, or is it called something else?
14:52:45 <k4jcw> And it's actually running on the handset?  
14:53:51 <TreyB> The current product doesn't use forth.  Future versions will.  Neither the user of the package nor the handset owner will ever see the forth code.  Our applications guys will use it to tailor data collection for various products.
14:54:20 <TreyB> k4jcw: Yep, it actually runs on the handset.
14:54:27 <k4jcw> Very cool.
14:54:57 <k4jcw> I'd like to get paid to write a Forth app like that.
14:55:04 <k4jcw> Of course, I'd like to be taller, better looking, and rich, too.
14:55:08 <Quartus__> Lucky somebody there had the smarts to go with Forth, and not some of the uglier embedded options.
14:57:44 <TreyB> We have footprint requirements and the desire to compile code on the handset.  Not many other languages fit the bill.
14:58:22 <Quartus> Still, I've known managers who would have tried hard to find another way, pre-compiled byte-code or something equally onerous.
14:59:50 <Quartus> On gforth's case-sensitivity, I've never used 'table' before.  If used instead of wordlist, the wordlist is case-sensitive. Neat.
15:01:46 <Quartus> RetroForth is case-sensitive, but the ANS layer has an enhancement that crc helped me with -- if a word isn't found, the all-lowercase version of it is tried before giving up.  That way I can implement all the standard words in lowercase, and they'll still be found if specified in UPPERCASE.
15:02:15 <Quartus> But the system is still case-sensitive, which is pretty neat.
15:03:17 <TreyB> Interesting.
15:03:26 * TreyB has to bail for a grocery store run.
15:03:35 <Quartus> later!
15:13:08 <crc> good evening
15:13:15 <Quartus> Hey.
15:17:01 <Quartus> What's up?
15:17:04 <vatic> While we're on the subject of case (in)sensitivity, my newbie question is whether the insensitivity should be located in  the FIND word.
15:18:01 <Quartus> vatic, FIND uses counted strings, so generally there's a sub-factor (find) or sfind (Gforth's name).  That one takes c-addr u strings.  That's where the name-matching would go, whether insensitive or not.
15:20:06 <vatic> Quartus: OK, but what one is aiming for is case sensitivity, except for dictionary lookup, which should be insensitive?
15:20:06 <Quartus> Some of the old Forth interpreters used some variant on  'BL WORD FIND'  in the interpreter; the modern approach is 'parse-name sfind', avoiding copying the parsed word into a separate buffer.
15:20:46 <Quartus> vatic, I've only been talking about case-(in)sensitivity as regards dictionary lookup.  Are you talking about it in some other context?
15:20:50 <vatic> Quartus: leave it to me to be using  the old BL WORD FIND!
15:21:12 <Quartus> The parsing approach is a bit faster, as you don't spend time copying the word. Both work, of course.
15:22:38 <vatic> Quartus: Sorry, I haven't thought through all this yet, so maybe my question is premature. I guess there isn't any other kind of insensitivity besides dictionary lookup, no?
15:23:22 <Quartus> Well, there's string matching and searching -- COMPARE and SEARCH, for instance, but those would be character-by-character, I'd be alarmed if they weren't case-sensitive. :)
15:23:36 <vatic> Quartus: I guess what I'm trying to say is a design goal would be to preserve case, but lookup is case insensitive?
15:24:07 <Quartus> I recommend keeping the dictionary names in their original form, so they display the way they were entered (with WORDS or what-have-you).
15:24:18 <AI_coder> Quartus, TreyB: Thanks
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15:24:26 <AI_coder> Cleaned up my code
15:24:59 <Quartus> AI_coder, I hope it helped.  The code seemed a bit less bizarre to me when I realized it was probably a lookup table.  I thought initially you were building an executable word that way, which would indeed be odd.
15:27:02 <vatic> Quartus: so someone creates a word called "FooBar." Then a search for "foobar" should find "FooBar"?
15:27:22 <Quartus> That's what a case-insensitive system would do.
15:27:33 <Quartus> Also FoObAr and FOOBAR would match.
15:28:08 <Quartus> In Quartus Forth, even fOObär would.
15:28:48 <Quartus> (that's an umlaut, in case it didn't come through that way, I'm never sure on irc)
15:28:55 <vatic> Quartus: yes, I should just try this out. Anyway, didn't mean to step on your conversation with crc.. :-)
15:29:04 <Quartus> No worries.  :)
15:29:05 <vatic> Quartus: UTF8 here!
15:29:30 <Quartus> Remind me of the UTF8 spec -- accented characters at all?
15:29:58 <vatic> Quartus: Yup.
15:30:51 <Quartus> In Quartus Forth I have a lookup table that maps upper, lower, and accented versions of all chars to each other, that's used twice for each character during the (find) string-compare.
15:32:22 <Quartus> It's an optimized compare, matches lengths first, exits on non-match without returning a value of any kind.  Fast as possible.
15:32:48 <vatic> Quartus: ah, so you do it with a lookup tablekup table...
15:33:05 <Quartus> Yes, fastest way.
15:33:13 <segher> if you always do this case-insensitive match, you can store the names as filtered; only requires one lookup per char per find
15:33:31 <Quartus> You can, but I prefer that WORDS show the actual spelling the developer used.
15:33:49 <segher> you can use the filtered version in the hash only, too
15:33:59 <Quartus> Yes, I hash case-insensitive.
15:34:06 <segher> best of both worlds :-)
15:34:25 <Quartus> Storing the original spelling means you could have selectable case-sensitivity, if you prefer.
15:34:32 <segher> yes
15:34:45 <segher> and it's nice for .name etc., as you said
15:35:26 <Quartus> The extra lookup is a tiny price.
15:36:07 <segher> well, if you have a hash table already, sure
15:36:17 <segher> if you have to do a linear search...  ;-)
15:36:52 <Quartus> Even then, it's a tiny price.  One instruction -- you might accidentally write a string-compare with an extra instruction in it, after all :) What do they say -- every program can be made one instruction shorter? :)
15:37:30 <segher> well it's more than one instruction, if you want to be pedantic -- but yeah
15:37:51 <segher> one instruction in a bloody hot path though
15:38:12 <Quartus> Sure, but if you're really concerned about the heat of that path, you're going to hash the dictionary.
15:38:34 <segher> you'd think i'd have done that by now, eh
15:38:43 <Quartus> Yeah, geez, get on it. :)
15:38:52 <segher> i do cache results in a hash table though
15:39:06 <Quartus> What results?
15:39:13 <segher> quite good
15:39:19 <Quartus> No, what results do you cache? :)
15:39:37 <segher> oh, just the last found word pointers, one per hash
15:39:41 <segher> hash value
15:39:59 <Quartus> Oh ok.  How often does the table get invalidated?
15:40:02 <segher> problem is on every search order change i need to invalidate
15:40:06 <Quartus> Right.
15:40:11 <segher> way too often :-)
15:40:26 <segher> it was a 100x..1000x speedup though ;-)
15:40:37 <Quartus> Yes, move that hashtable down an abstraction or two, and you'll be winning.
15:40:46 <segher> i know
15:41:10 <segher> the system is fast enough already now
15:41:30 <segher> but i want to change to a full hash, to clean up how everything works
15:41:32 <Quartus> RetroForth's dictionary lookup is very fast despite it being a simple linked list, so I just built wordlist support on top of that without trying to work in a hashtable.
15:41:36 <segher> i hate ugly code :-)
15:41:49 <Quartus> I know how you feel.
15:42:04 <segher> that's what i did, yeah.  and the the cache on top of that
15:42:48 <Quartus> I'm still greatly enamored of the xor-wordlist dealie that you can do with hashtables, though.
15:43:09 <segher> yeah
15:43:37 <segher> if you have a maximum, fixed, number of wordlists, that is quite fun
15:43:57 <segher> if not, it just amounts to hashing the wordlist id in with the name
15:44:21 <Quartus> Right.
15:44:34 <segher> but useful, anyway
15:45:11 <segher> and better than having same name, different wordlist, all in the same hash bucker
15:46:29 <Quartus> True.  I'm not sure hashing the wordlist id in with the name would always work to differentiate, if the same word in two wordlists hashed to the same bucket (after the modulo operation).
15:46:47 <Quartus> The XOR has to work, because it's bounded by the number of buckets.
15:47:19 <segher> ah yes
15:47:33 <segher> you have to store the wid with the entry
15:47:47 <Quartus> Right, and the magic goes right out of it. :)
15:48:24 <segher> still it works nicely, functionally
15:48:33 <Quartus> Yeah, but the MAGIC, man, the MAGIC! :)
15:48:38 <segher> no pixie dust left, yeah
15:51:25 <Quartus> Maybe a hybrid approach -- each wordlist to have an associated hashtable, all pointing at the same one until you run out of WIDs to xor with, then create a new one.
15:52:04 <Quartus> Or use other criteria, like the average chain length.
15:52:25 <Quartus> Bit more complex, but could be a speed win.
15:52:45 <Quartus> Would screw up MARKER rather badly, though :)
15:54:38 <Quartus> Simpler to just resize the hashtable if more WIDs are needed.
15:55:16 <Quartus> Or abandon the pixie dust and do it the pedestrian way.  I like that dust, though.
15:55:22 <segher> yeah
15:56:28 <Quartus> Practically I've never written any Forth that needed a huge number of wordlists, though I'm sure it can be done.
15:57:00 <segher> i have two wordlists per device node, in OF...
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15:58:01 <Quartus> That'd use'em up fast.
16:00:28 <segher> yeah
16:26:22 <virl> writing good and short code, is that possible with ans?
16:27:36 <Quiznos> with practuce
16:27:38 <Quiznos> ice
16:28:24 <virl> haha..
16:28:30 <Quiznos> :)
16:28:39 <Quiznos> but i'm good that way with asm
16:28:54 <virl> your forth is an ans forth?
16:29:12 <Quiznos> i'm not aiming that way but i might adopt some features of it
16:29:24 <Quiznos> the core words are going to be lowercase tho
16:29:51 <Quiznos> i'm still filling out the vm and forthifying opcodes
16:30:24 <virl> forthify a new slang word..
16:30:31 <Quiznos> heh
16:32:27 <Quiznos> i see the ANS as a guide only; so that's how i'll use it 
16:34:22 <Quiznos> i've been thinking in the last day that i might be able to separate code words from colon words and ONLY put code words in the asm source file
16:35:01 <Quiznos> so that the file will contain only the building blocks plus one word each for reading and writing to and from stdin/stdout
16:35:14 <Quiznos> and everything else will be in a file like extend.f
16:41:30 <Quiznos> virl, whatcha think of the last post?
16:42:11 <virl> can't say.
16:42:34 <virl> why don't you split it up in different files?
16:56:41 <Quiznos> for core kernel, i think two is enuf
16:57:11 <Quiznos> oh and by 'forthifying' i mean to wrap some code (or opcode) with other code to make usage easier.
17:24:08 <AI_coder> Anyone know german? Rotiert das Programm um einen vom Stack eingelesen Wert nach rechts. <- What does that mean? It's a comment for the shift_left word
17:24:37 <AI_coder> Programmzeiger wird nicht verschoben <- Thinks that means eip doesn't move
17:24:45 <virl> one moment
17:24:56 <AI_coder> Laenge des Programms bliebt konstant <- Means program doesn't get bigger
17:25:06 <Quartus> The shift_left comment means it rotates the data around to the left and reads it in from the right.
17:26:22 <Quartus> Suggests a rotate rather than a shift, to me.  But my German is rusty so you may want to get that confirmed.
17:26:45 <virl> well, I think whoever formulated the comments, he isn't a good comment writer
17:26:49 <AI_coder> http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/asa/SemSS04/AdaptiveProgrammgenerierungFolien.pdf#search=%22higp%20metasocket%22
17:27:30 <AI_coder> Page 8
17:28:25 <virl> HiGP what's that?
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17:30:02 <AI_coder> http://hampshire.edu/lspector/pubs/onto-sab96-e.pdf Page 3
17:30:04 <virl> well, whoever it wrote he has a talent in writing confusing
17:30:14 <AI_coder> virl: I thought the same thing
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17:30:27 <AI_coder> I'm trying to rewrite it into forth from lisp and c++
17:31:38 <AI_coder> Page four has an explanation in english http://hampshire.edu/lspector/pubs/onto-sab96-e.pdf but it is just as confusing.
17:32:04 <virl> yeah, it's even for me as a native speaker difficult to understand what he means.
17:33:41 <virl> I don't understand what it means that the program gets rotated, for me that's a stupid concept.
17:34:08 <Quartus> I think it's broken German, but I'd guess it is referring to a rotate operation.
17:34:28 <virl> normally when we speak of a program, we mean code and this code isn't normally only one value which gets easily shifted
17:34:38 <virl> yeah, it means rotate
17:35:08 <AI_coder> Here it is in lisp http://hampshire.edu/~lasCCS/midgp1.5.lisp
17:35:08 <virl> but confusing is that the command is called *_shift and shift isn't rotate
17:35:16 <Quartus> But since the comment is broken, so the description may also be inaccurate.  I'd be wary of trying to implement code from a PowerPoint presentation.
17:35:21 <virl> shift and rotate are similiar but not the same
17:35:24 <AI_coder> Lol
17:36:08 <AI_coder> In his lisp program he moves the instruction pointer, so I'm not sure what to make of it.
17:36:29 <virl> lisp, my hell language. when hell exists then that would be it.
17:36:38 <Quartus> Then perhaps that's what it does.  Shifts the instruction pointer.  That makes the German make a bit more sense.
17:36:59 <AI_coder> Programmzeiger wird nicht verschoben <- What about this?
17:37:36 <Quartus> Program pointer is not shifted.
17:38:13 <AI_coder> What's the difference between programmzeiger and instruction pointer?
17:38:35 <Quartus> The author might know the answer to that one.  My guess would be that the meaning is equivalent.
17:38:52 <AI_coder> Then again he may not, hehe
17:39:23 <Quiznos> google the word "zeiger" 
17:39:35 <Quiznos> reminds me of a geiger counter
17:39:42 <Quiznos> which could be english redundancy
17:39:53 <Quiznos> i know it was a gentleman Geiger
17:39:54 <Quartus> Geiger was somebody's name.
17:40:06 <Quiznos> words are more related than not
17:40:11 <Quiznos> even in foreign languages
17:40:19 <Quiznos> stems and prefices and etc
17:41:37 <Quartus> No relation here.  Geiger means 'violinist', I think.
17:41:54 <Quiznos> it's still a good thing to goodgle for zeiger
17:41:57 <Quiznos> google
17:41:58 <AI_coder> Hans Geiger
17:42:02 <Quiznos> "goedel?"
17:42:04 <Quiznos> heh
17:42:32 <AI_coder> http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=en&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=zeiger&relink=on
17:42:43 <AI_coder> pointe [comp.] [tech.]
17:42:46 <AI_coder> pointer [comp.] [tech.]
17:42:59 <Quiznos> program pointer is what the IP is
17:43:07 <virl> zeiger means exactly the same as pointer
17:43:07 <Quiznos> IP points to program [code]
17:48:14 <AI_coder> The lawsuit alleged that the NSA ``uses artificial intelligence aids to search for keywords and analyze patterns in millions of communications at any given time.'' Multiple lawsuits have been filed related to data-mining against phone companies, accusing them of improperly turning over records to the NSA.
17:48:18 <AI_coder> http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6022282,00.html
17:49:01 <Quiznos> wow cool
17:49:03 <Quiznos> ty
17:50:39 <virl> bah, real strong ai would be cool.. but that I wouldn't call ai, I think I would call that ci computerbased intelligence
17:51:23 <AI_coder> Well not that long ago voice recognition was considered deep ai now it's just off the shelf stuff, it seems like ai is just what we don't understand.
17:51:37 <virl> like god..
17:51:47 <AI_coder> Nah, god is just a myth.
17:51:57 <virl> when you think..
17:51:58 <Quartus> Good voice recognition is still deep AI. Lousy voice recognition we have had for awhile.
17:52:08 <virl> I'm just only between the lines.
17:52:56 <virl> voice recognition isn't imho ai, it's only intelligent peripherie
17:53:45 <Quartus> The actual phoeneme recognizers are still pretty lousy, and there's very little in the way of semantic disambiguation behind them.
17:56:38 <k4jcw> How to wreck a nice beach.
17:57:00 <Quartus> Yes. :)
17:57:39 <virl> hmm?
17:58:14 <Quartus> A common way of expressing the problems with modern speech recognition.  "How to recognize speech" -> "How to wreck a nice beach".
17:58:25 <Quiznos> heh
17:59:07 <virl> that's an intelligent answer
17:59:11 <Quiznos> t'is all boot pro per pro nun see a shun
17:59:21 <Quiznos> pra per
17:59:31 <virl> ok..
18:00:01 <Quiznos> itsz all uh boot pra per pro nun see a shun
18:00:14 <Quiznos> heh, bowt
18:00:19 <virl> what are you talking about?
18:00:30 <Quiznos> elucidation
18:00:38 <k4jcw> enunciation
18:00:44 <Quiznos> eggsagera shun
18:01:15 <juri_> nice.
18:01:28 <juri_> i actually used to play with speech recognition code. ;P
18:01:42 <k4jcw> We used to torture our vocoders with asian women.
18:01:57 <k4jcw> They're pretty much a worst case test.
18:02:05 <Quiznos> it's actually the case that writ english is not the same at all to spoken english
18:02:08 <virl> for what do you need a vocoder in speech recognition?
18:03:06 <k4jcw> We weren't doing speech recognition, but compression of real-time speech over a 2400bps modem.  It's another example of how human speech is hard to work with, and has a large number of parameters to deal with.
18:04:03 <virl> you mean getting it again into an understandable form?
18:04:30 <k4jcw> Yea, basically.
18:05:01 <Quiznos> compression is about reducing the quanity of x to represent the value of y
18:05:18 <virl> I know vocoders only from robotic sounds, any other things which can be used them for?
18:05:23 <Quiznos> where x is the language used to write (encode) y
18:05:27 <k4jcw> We were doing vocal tract modeling on a TI TMS310 DSP.  
18:05:59 <k4jcw> We had a voice encryption system that was supposed to compete with the STU-III secure phones.
18:06:55 <k4jcw> Ultimately, 9600 modems because cheap and practical enough, and we switched to that.  At least at that time, 2400bps just wasn't practical.  Now, with more modern processing and algorithms, it may be.  I've been out of that field for a long time.
18:08:50 <Quiznos> well obviously it is as can be clearly infered by certain automated phone systems in use
18:09:23 <k4jcw> what?  That makes no sense.
18:09:55 <Quiznos> there are automated phone systems that are very good with processing speech
18:10:18 <k4jcw> Yes, and most of them don't try to compress the source at the handset down to 2400bps, then uncompress it at the server.
18:10:27 <k4jcw> Where "most" == "none"
18:10:51 <Quiznos> sure, but virl was only writing from a historical point, not current activity
18:12:51 <Quiznos> ok i'm done. nite
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19:41:59 <Quartus> Hey madgarden.
19:42:19 <Quartus> What do you THINK !!!
19:42:35 <virl> oh man this joke gets old
19:42:57 <Quartus> You are all FOOLS !!
19:44:48 <virl> yeah, you too
19:45:03 <Quartus> Well, that's implied.  Werty knows all.
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19:57:49 <virl> how portable is it when you work in ans forth with a memory address?
19:58:14 <virl> say $123 @ for example..
20:07:56 <Quartus> Not very.
20:08:36 <madgarden> Quartus, THINK !!!
20:09:05 <Quartus> BEWARE MY WRATH! Oh wait, that's not werty.
20:09:59 <madgarden> I'm going to make a Forthy turtle vectory fun thing, and ain't nobody gonna stop me none neither!
20:10:18 <Quartus> tell turtle go to hell!
20:13:13 <madgarden> :'(
20:13:29 <Quartus> I did a turtle demo for Quartus.
20:13:58 <madgarden> Turtle is fun.
20:14:17 <madgarden> My saucer game uses turtle concepts for drawing.
20:15:00 <madgarden> A resume ?   Teaching Forth ?   No one can Teach Forth ., it teaches itself
20:15:20 <Quartus> werty? Is that you?
20:15:57 <madgarden>  But now you are in the middle of the stream !  Change horses !
20:16:07 <madgarden> Win32For    is   a   "gotcha"  ,   it's  a   hooker .
20:16:31 <Quartus> Heh.
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23:39:21 --- log: started forth/06.08.17
23:39:21 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
23:39:21 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects.'
23:39:21 --- topic: set by ayrnieu on [Thu Jun 22 20:55:25 2006]
23:39:21 --- names: list (clog virsys Cheery warpzero @crc uiuiuiu Quiznos Snoopy42 @Quartus juri_ virl nighty_ segher AI_coder Zarutian k4jcw ianp madwork astecp TreyB cods @JasonWoof ayrnieu ccfg Shain Zymurgy ohub michaelw)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.08.17