00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.12
01:12:21 <virsys> morn' Quiznos 
01:12:35 <Quiznos> re. how ya doin?
01:13:17 <Quiznos> i made some headway in my forth internals yesterday
01:13:43 <Quiznos> figered out how to layout a word struct so it's movable
01:14:07 <Quiznos> and also associate a emacs's style helpstring with each word too 
01:15:06 <Quiznos> also made the NFA a real pointer to the name of a word
01:15:28 <Quiznos> so it's more closely related to how one would write a cstruct style {}
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01:16:12 <Quiznos> ie, struct _word { char *name, struct word *prev, parent; void *pfa }
01:20:39 <Quiznos> comments, criticisms, flames invites :)
01:20:42 <Quiznos> invited
01:52:31 <michaelw> what's parent?
01:54:51 <Quiznos> oh, oops; parent is lfa
01:54:55 <Quiznos> wait
01:55:15 <Quiznos> arent is the cfa
01:55:17 <Quiznos> parent
01:55:30 <Quiznos> fig model fields are nf, lfm cf pf
01:55:41 <Quiznos> nf, lf, cf, pf
01:55:53 <Quiznos> to which i add an hf for help string
01:56:11 <Quiznos> k?
01:57:22 <michaelw> i have name, flags, lf, cf, pf
01:57:43 <Quiznos> yea, flags will be included as part of but separately from nf
01:58:07 <Quiznos> but i'm thinking of expanding it to be a cell-wide
01:59:36 <Quiznos> terms: a word has 4 standard fields, N, L, C and P; H is extra for a help-string.
02:00:07 <Quiznos> a word consists of two parts, a head { nf, lf, and maybe hf} and a body has { cf and pf}
02:00:30 <Quiznos> the standard fields end up being true pointers to their respective content
02:00:38 <Quiznos> k?
02:00:58 <Quiznos> a null field-pointer means no content
02:01:12 <Quiznos> so that headless words are even easier to do i think
02:01:35 <Quiznos> `dbu' == "define before use"
02:02:19 <Quiznos> since a word's name is known before the word is defined (the name of a word follows the `:') it's easy to make turnkey headless applications
02:02:28 <Quiznos> when i figer out how to make ELF binaries :)
02:02:51 <Quiznos> just do a word by word copy to the buffer without the word's name
02:03:19 <michaelw> elf binaries are easy, at least if you cheat a little
02:03:19 <Quiznos> and bc pf points to its content, i can attach a length field to pf
02:03:34 <Quiznos> michaelw yea, i know linuxassembly.net
02:03:40 <Quiznos> so, that's not really a prob
02:03:57 <Quiznos> how's that look so far?
02:05:05 <michaelw> why do you want headless words again?
02:05:15 <Quiznos> everyone else has them :)
02:05:16 <Quiznos> heh
02:05:33 <Quiznos> eventually, i want to share this kernel
02:05:45 <Quiznos> so i'm planning on it being flexible.
02:05:50 <Quiznos> designing it to be *
02:06:24 <Quiznos> i'm not fond of headless words myself
02:06:52 <Quiznos> i consider heads (nf and lf) to be essential debuging info
02:08:34 <michaelw> that's what I think,not sure about the separation
02:08:59 <Quiznos> well, i'm trying to incorporate good design features from other languages and this is preparation
02:09:00 * michaelw runs
02:09:13 <Quiznos> siddown :)
02:11:48 <Quiznos> as far as "separation" by which i mean being able to describe the structure of a word using c-isms
02:12:25 <Quiznos> after that, it makes sense to me to actually design the kernel's actual layout of words using that struct
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02:20:51 <Quiznos> one question i'm dealing with tho is ``to what field do i put in my LF?''
02:24:42 <EsotericMoniker> where is a good place to start learning about forth?
02:25:33 <Quiznos> in print, in google
02:27:46 <Quiznos> anything else?
02:28:17 <Quartus> EsotericMoniker: http://www.amresearch.com/starting_forth/      and        http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/
02:28:59 <Quartus> Download Gforth for your system so you have an implementation to play with as you learn.
02:30:38 <Quartus> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/
02:31:09 <Quiznos> and Taygeta too
02:35:44 <EsotericMoniker> does the linux version of gforth run on osx?
02:36:47 <EsotericMoniker> I found it on darwin ports
02:37:15 <Quartus> It's here at fink too: http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/search.php?summary=gforth
02:37:26 <EsotericMoniker> what is taygeta?
02:38:05 <Quartus> A collection of largely vintage Forth bits & pieces from across the years.
02:38:55 <Quiznos> many years
02:39:22 <EsotericMoniker> so like the standard libs?
02:39:39 <Quiznos> "standard" is so subject with regard to forth :)
02:39:43 <Quiznos> subjective
02:39:45 <Quartus> More of a hodge-podge collection of many things at taygeta.
02:39:47 <EsotericMoniker> heh
02:39:59 <Quartus> There's an offical ISO/ANS Standard for Forth.  
02:40:11 <Quiznos> but no one likes the standard ;)
02:40:12 <Quiznos> heh
02:40:30 <Quartus> You don't speak for me, Quiznos.
02:40:35 <Quiznos> i know
02:40:55 <Quiznos> then you're not "no one"
02:42:18 <virl> I don't dream, someone suggests a newcomer gforth as the starting forth, well gforth is frustrating for a newbie
02:42:32 <Quiznos> lol
02:42:41 * Quiznos refrains from responding further
02:42:47 * Quiznos steps away from the kbd
02:42:53 <Quiznos> slowly i turned
02:42:56 <Quiznos> step by step
02:42:59 <Quiznos> heh
02:43:07 <Quartus> Gforth is well-built, reports errors instead of crashing, complies with the Standard, has good console keyboard facilities, and is well-codumented.
02:43:29 <Quartus> well-documented, rather.  I don't know what more you could hope for.  I guess the world is waiting for you to write a better one, virl.
02:44:32 <Quartus> I could go on.  It has FFI; it's got full floating-point support; it's ported to multiple platforms.
02:44:39 <EsotericMoniker> I get the feeling from what I've read so far that forth is like lisp in it's diveristy and lack of a "standard"
02:44:54 <Quiznos> well as Quartus said, there is a standard
02:44:56 <virl> well-documented, pah! even Anton Ertl admits that it's not
02:45:00 <Quiznos> and it's highly divisive
02:45:02 <Quiznos> :)
02:45:10 <Quiznos> virl what did Anton say?
02:45:34 <Quartus> There are lots of different Forths and forth-like languages, EsotericMoniker, and a Standard that's in wide use, adopted by commercial Forth vendors, and quite effective.
02:45:51 <Quiznos> EsotericMoniker for instance, see the joy language
02:45:56 <Quartus> Forth is easy for even a poor programmer to implement (however badly), so commonly that happens.
02:46:22 <virl> that they need to write docs for gforth, he said that for the new version of gforth there could be more documentation about it
02:46:39 <Quiznos> virl, ah
02:47:00 <Quartus> There's always more that can be written. Gforth cannot be called undocumented, however; it's got a substantial manual.
02:47:26 <virl> I mean the manual isn't really _much_ documentation, for a small forth that would be true. but gforth isn't small!
02:47:36 <EsotericMoniker> so basically there's a standard core and then a bunch of different add-ons that aren't really standard or particularly compatible
02:47:40 <Quartus> Again, the world awaits your revisions, virl.  Get writing.
02:47:41 <virl> it's a big unholly mess 
02:47:55 * Quiznos sprinkles holly water on gforth
02:48:58 <Quartus> EsotericMoniker, nearly every Forth implements platform-specific extensions of one sort or another.  Forth is used all the way down into the tiniest systems, and is often intricately involved with the hardware and peripherals it runs on.
02:49:32 <virl> EsotericMoniker, the standard was created to get old habits of old forths under a general description. it's not the state of the art of todays forth, in fact it's deprecated.
02:50:07 <Quiznos> ANS is dep.?
02:50:32 <virl> deprecated = obsolet, sry.
02:50:41 <Quiznos> wow
02:50:50 <Quiznos> i've waited for so long for this day :)
02:50:52 <Quartus> I'm going to leave you with these two jackanapes, EsotericMoniker; I'm sure they'll keep trying to convince you that it's not worth bothering with.  Good luck; I'll be around later if you want to talk when the trolls are down for a nap.
02:51:40 <EsotericMoniker> hehe, ok
02:51:45 <EsotericMoniker> I feel the love
02:51:55 <Quiznos> his adjectives are ineffective ;)
02:51:57 <Quiznos> lol
02:52:10 <Quiznos> feel it, EsotericMoniker, feel it :)
02:53:30 <virl> EsotericMoniker, you can could look at gforth and other non-ans forths and then you could see what I mean.
02:54:21 <Quiznos> EsotericMoniker my comment on ANS is that it was meant to standardise ONLY the meaning of forth words and clarify disparate usage among the different forth-models
02:54:36 <Quiznos> it doesnt discuss how to implement
03:01:11 <virl> well, I think EsotericMoniker isn't much interested into this detail, are you? or in what are you exactly interested?
03:01:31 <virl> probably 'how the fuck do I learn forth?', right?
03:01:46 <Quiznos> yea, we went overforth :)
03:01:48 <Quiznos> lol
03:02:12 <EsotericMoniker> basically an intro to know why it's cool and why I should spend time learning it
03:02:26 <EsotericMoniker> I am interesting in *some* of the internals as I would like to use it to build a compiler
03:02:30 <EsotericMoniker> and a VM
03:02:45 <Quiznos> EsotericMoniker forth is uniq among the family of lagnuages in that it can work with or without an operating system
03:03:11 <Quiznos> it allow sone COMPLETE control over every aspect of a computer when there is no intevenining os
03:03:29 <Quiznos> forth has no true limits in what you can do with it
03:04:32 <Quiznos> but coding in forth requires that one lern first howto think IN forth.
03:04:42 <Quiznos> and that's a different way of thinking in general too
03:04:56 <Quiznos> it's also quite different from coding in any other programming language as well
03:05:06 <virl> in fact it's a language with an inbuild interpreter and an inbuild compiler
03:05:18 <Quiznos> yep
03:05:30 <Quiznos> it's a very liberating language environment
03:05:33 <EsotericMoniker> yeah, I got interested because of this presentation: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/media/Eric%20LaForest:%20Next%20Generation%20Stack%20Computing.html
03:06:03 <Quiznos> virl is the name Koopman? (sp?)
03:08:04 <Quiznos> EsotericMoniker google for umm
03:08:32 <Quiznos> Phil Koopman; he wrote a book about forth type languages.
03:08:43 <Quiznos> it's available online, and a good read
03:09:05 <virl> well, if so, then I haven't read it
03:09:21 <EsotericMoniker> Quiznos, anything more specific than just umm?
03:09:38 <Quiznos> Phil Koopman
03:09:41 <EsotericMoniker> ah
03:10:09 <Quiznos> umm is a "pauser"
03:10:11 <Quiznos> :)
03:11:41 <EsotericMoniker> Stack Computers: The New Wave, right?
03:12:31 <virl> new wave.. around 1980 it was written
03:13:01 <Quiznos> not 80s
03:13:03 <Quiznos> 90
03:13:16 <Quiznos> ~80 was Loeliger's book
03:13:24 <Quiznos> which i have somewhere ;)
03:13:46 <virl> hmm? I thought it was published 198*
03:13:55 <Quiznos> nop
03:14:01 <Quiznos> it's a "modern" book :)
03:14:23 <EsotericMoniker> 1989 was the new wave according to this site: http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/
03:14:32 <Quiznos> yea, read that
03:15:00 <Quiznos> also find Anton Ertl's pages, he has good info regarding too
03:15:34 <Quiznos> also google for the usenet entries on forth.
03:19:28 <virl> hmm, I'm really inerested into that video file
03:19:41 <Quiznos> what vid?
03:20:34 <virl> that one EsotericMoniker posted 
03:20:53 <Quiznos> ah
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03:42:18 <EsotericMoniker> thx for the info everyone
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13:05:07 --- log: started forth/06.08.12
13:05:07 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
13:05:07 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects.'
13:05:07 --- topic: set by ayrnieu on [Thu Jun 22 20:55:25 2006]
13:05:07 --- names: list (clog_ Snoopy42 Amanita_Virosa Cheery madgarden segher_ Quiznos virsys uiuiuiu timlarson virl Raystm2 cods @JasonWoof ayrnieu juri_ k4jcw warpzero nighty__ @Quartus @crc ccfg Shain clog Zymurgy ohub michaelw)
13:56:26 --- log: started forth/06.08.12
13:56:26 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
13:56:26 --- topic: 'Welcome to #forth. We discuss the Forth programming language, simplicity, and a variety of technical subjects.'
13:56:26 --- topic: set by ayrnieu on [Thu Jun 22 20:55:25 2006]
13:56:26 --- names: list (clog slava Snoopy42 Amanita_Virosa Cheery madgarden segher_ Quiznos virsys uiuiuiu timlarson virl Raystm2 cods @JasonWoof ayrnieu juri_ k4jcw warpzero nighty__ @Quartus @crc ccfg Shain Zymurgy ohub michaelw)
13:56:47 <Quiznos> virl my current kernel.asm assembles to 570 bytes ;)
13:56:49 <Quiznos> heh
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14:02:37 <virl> Quiznos, wow, ok?
14:02:44 <virl> and what does it include=
14:02:59 <Quiznos> virl just the basics so far; all heads too
14:05:38 <virl> which system? I mean which Forth philosophy?
14:06:12 <Quiznos> umm, i'm agnostic lol where forth is concerned
14:06:17 <Quiznos> dtc
14:06:51 <Quiznos> i might abide by ANS definitions but only loosely
14:07:00 <Quiznos> 32bit on linux
14:07:08 <Quiznos> not dynamic binary atm
14:07:20 <virl> any words yet?
14:07:43 <Quiznos> most of the common stack, math, inner interp
14:08:11 <Quiznos> the easy stuff so far
14:09:06 <Quiznos> i'm gonna hook certain words to linux kernel, like write() for type
14:09:16 <Quiznos> that'll be easy
14:09:34 <virl> nice 579 bytes..
14:09:41 <virl> eh 570
14:09:46 <Quiznos> yea, it'll get larger tho
14:10:23 <Quiznos> plus i'm also working on a recovered pc that was dropped off here about 1.5h ago
14:10:38 <Quiznos> new toy to me
14:11:20 <virl> hmm? a pc which one?
14:12:08 <Quiznos> so far i've figered out: celeron-400M with 128meg, 4g, atx mobo in a BIG 7bay tower
14:12:48 <Quiznos> extra fan, 4usb ports split front and back
14:12:52 <Quiznos> cdrom
14:13:03 <Quiznos> it's pretty clean inside the box
14:13:12 <Quiznos> just a few cobs, no bunnies at all
14:13:33 <virl> bunnies?
14:13:40 <Quiznos> apparently previous owner was either lawyer or involved in employment
14:13:43 <Quiznos> dust bunnies
14:14:05 <Quiznos> one flop
14:14:23 <Quiznos> no eth but i have a nic card lyin around
14:14:54 <Quiznos> winme is on the hd now, with the cabs, so i might save that to cdrw
14:15:00 <virl> 570 bytes, which assembler and how much lines?
14:15:07 <Quiznos> k
14:15:33 <Quiznos> so far it's: 212 lines of asm writ for the fasm assembler (nasm fork)
14:15:46 <Quiznos> 3101 text bytes
14:15:52 <Quiznos> with modest commenting
14:15:57 <slava> what CPU?
14:16:02 <Quiznos> a macro for NEXT
14:16:20 <virl> nasm fork? eh, when fasm is a fork of nasm then it would be written in C, but it's not.
14:16:26 <Quiznos> for 386+ minimally
14:16:39 <Quiznos> virl ty for correction
14:16:48 <Quiznos> fasm is an assembler writ in asm for several host os
14:16:58 <Quiznos> yasm is the nasm fork
14:17:05 <Quiznos> i get my asm's confussled
14:17:09 <Quiznos> :)
14:17:14 <slava> what makes your forth different from other x86 forths?
14:17:16 <virl> ok..
14:17:33 <virl> slava, it's HIS forth ;-)
14:17:41 <ayrnieu> there are many forths like it, but this forth is mine.
14:18:00 <Quiznos> slava atm nothing, it's not ready for prime-time; i'm still building it up but it'll have at least one uniq feature 
14:18:11 <Quiznos> virl that's tru, it's my forth atm
14:18:15 <Quiznos> my vision
14:19:57 <Quiznos> ax.dx for tos, si=IP, sp=SP, bp=RP
14:20:18 <Quiznos> i think using ax instead of bx makes the difference in code-size
14:20:50 <virl> ayrnieu, that reads like a scene from the movie full metal jacket
14:21:05 <Quiznos> i need to adjust the macros to put the word-name before nfa so nfa is an actual pointer
14:21:19 <Quiznos> same with the cf and pfa's
14:21:51 <slava> 16 bit?
14:21:58 <Quiznos> 32
14:22:13 <Quiznos> but i wanna use relative offsets instead of absolute addresses
14:22:41 <Quiznos> and incorporate the fpu/sse/mmx register-files too
14:22:59 <Quiznos> there are alot of 0-operand opcodes not being used
14:23:05 <slava> if you only care about new cpus, don't support the x87 fpu
14:23:13 <Quiznos> why?
14:23:17 <slava> sse is easier to program for and faster
14:23:21 <Quiznos> you mean 286 and older?
14:23:23 <Quiznos> oh
14:23:35 <Quiznos> ok i'll look into that
14:23:36 <slava> sse2 is present on pentium 4 chips and newer (core duo etc0
14:23:44 <Quiznos> k
14:24:05 <Quiznos> i dont have P4 yet
14:47:59 <virl> 335 bytes for a helloworld, java, we love you..
14:48:11 <Quiznos> heh
14:48:25 <Quiznos> that's impressive; is that a native host compile of java?
14:49:12 <slava> probably a class file
14:50:05 <slava> java bytecode uses 8-bit instructions, and one of the original goals was to be compact, but i think they abandoned that one ;)
14:50:32 <Quiznos> mayhaps
14:50:33 <ayrnieu> or they now restrict it to J2ME
14:56:00 <Quiznos> can i paste a 15line macro here for comment?
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14:56:47 <virl> they have even a big header for every class file..
14:56:55 <slava> its not that big
14:57:20 <slava> java is big because there's a lot of code and a lot of duplication, the bytecode format is relatively compact
14:57:25 <slava> if it was natively compiled it would be 2-3x bigger
14:57:29 <ayrnieu> quiznos - paste a URL to it.
14:57:33 <Quiznos> k
14:58:44 <virl> maybe that it's not that big, but it's not little.
14:58:55 <slava> sun doesn't claim it is
14:58:56 <virl> little would be only the magic number and nothing more..
14:59:12 <virl> but java was also designed for size..
14:59:28 <slava> originally, but it hasn't been a goal for them for the last few years, i'm sure
14:59:34 <slava> the jdk gets much bigger with every release
14:59:42 <slava> its a ~100mb download these days for linux, i think
15:00:06 <virl> overwhelming..
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15:02:15 <virl> it's quite interesting how a class file is structured
15:03:26 <Quiznos> http://pastebin.ca for comments please?
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15:04:27 <virl> bah, a simple helloworld program has so much bloat information in java
15:04:42 <slava> how's xell coming along?
15:05:19 <virl> it's sure that it will beat that helloworld size
15:05:31 <ayrnieu> nobody cares about helloworld size, however.
15:06:04 <virl> I can't say much about it's future, but that's for sure.
15:06:16 <Quiznos> comments on my macro?
15:07:22 <virl> which macro?
15:07:29 <Quiznos> on pastebin.ca
15:07:35 <Quiznos> via my nick
15:07:46 <Quiznos> there's only one macro pasted
15:16:50 <Quiznos> virl new version on pastebin.ca
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15:41:45 <Quiznos> ray
15:44:55 <Quiznos> has anyone seen my post to comment? 
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16:24:06 <Quiznos> ray
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17:01:26 <Quiznos> re nighty
17:01:37 <nighty> Hello Quiznos 
17:02:12 <nighty> I'm full I ate  6 crumpets
17:02:22 <nighty> :)
17:02:46 <Quiznos> what! no tea?
17:02:51 <Quiznos> :)
17:02:58 <Quiznos> bad colonist
17:03:31 <nighty> Yes with tea
17:03:40 <Quiznos> oh ok
17:03:40 <nighty> 1 cup
17:03:43 <Quiznos> that's proper then
17:03:44 <Quiznos> lol
17:03:48 <Quartus> Hi nighty.
17:03:57 <nighty> quartus: hi :)
17:04:47 <nighty> I go crazy on the crumpets , i love these things 
17:04:53 <nighty> :)
17:06:19 <Quartus> Heh.
17:06:48 <Quiznos> lol
17:06:58 <nighty> and Maple sirup
17:07:29 <Quiznos> mmm
17:07:33 <Quiznos> i want pancakes
17:07:41 <nighty> and butter 
17:07:53 <nighty> pancakes are for wimps
17:08:00 <nighty> crumpets I say 
17:08:03 <nighty> :)
17:08:27 <Quiznos> pancakes are very special to me; like a gift
17:08:44 <nighty> a gift from who ?
17:09:08 <Quiznos> from me to me
17:09:17 <nighty> nice:)
17:09:21 <Quiznos> i goto a restaurant for them
17:09:25 <Quiznos> not often at all
17:09:27 <Quiznos> yea
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17:19:41 <snowrichard> hello
17:20:12 <Quiznos> re
17:20:34 <snowrichard> how are you today quiznos
17:20:45 <Quiznos> i'm winding down for the night
17:20:59 <snowrichard> oh... only 7:20 pm here
17:21:05 <Quiznos> +1h here
17:22:03 <snowrichard> listening to hitchhikers guide to the galaxy dvd just got a dvd-writer
17:22:36 <Quiznos> cool
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17:23:35 <snowrichard> windows XP pro didn't recognize it because it was a slave on the secondary.   had to switch to master
17:24:03 <snowrichard> linux had no problem
17:25:35 <Quiznos> yea lin is like that
17:26:56 <snowrichard> i burned a 4GB single-layer with most of my mp3 files
17:27:10 <Quiznos> cool
17:27:46 <snowrichard> had to drop a couple of the longer files out
17:33:06 <Quiznos> nite all
17:33:07 <Quiznos> gone.
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19:49:32 <snowrichard> hey guitar man
19:49:41 <snowrichard> I400r is your guitar right?
19:51:26 <I440r> ya
19:51:37 <snowrichard> you did the isforth?
19:51:49 <I440r> yes and no
19:51:52 <I440r> still DOING hehe
19:51:54 <snowrichard> well started it
19:51:57 <I440r> its not done yet :P
19:52:34 <snowrichard> I just got a dual-layer DVD burner today
19:52:52 <I440r> me 2
19:52:52 <snowrichard> I'm thinking of packaging one of my apps on a bootable disk
19:52:59 <I440r> and an athlon fx-60
19:53:10 <I440r> and a BFV video card
19:53:13 <snowrichard> dual core?
19:53:30 <I440r> and a VERY NICE 550 watt power supply that went kaboom the instant i powered it up
19:53:33 <I440r> yup
19:53:47 <snowrichard> you lost the power supply? :( 
19:53:47 <I440r> had to go buy a crappy 350 watt till i can get this RMA'd
19:53:55 <I440r> ill get it back :/
19:54:57 <I440r> motherboard is an asus a8n32-sli
19:55:52 <snowrichard> do you know a decent nasm / 386 asm tutorial? 
19:56:08 <snowrichard> other than the intel docs, they are huge
19:56:51 <I440r> well the only book i would recommend is the ORIGINAL "the 8086 book (includes the 8088)"
19:57:10 <I440r> thats the ONLY x86 assembler book that is worth a damn
19:57:29 <snowrichard> really.  Amazon have it?
19:57:47 <I440r> every other book ive looked at is 4 inches thicj. the first 2 inches go into great detail on the different assemnblers. followed by an inch and a half on hex binary and decimal
19:57:53 <I440r> leaving half an inch for assembler
19:57:59 <I440r> ya they probably have it
19:59:05 <snowrichard> or I could just read your code :) 
19:59:12 <I440r> ya
20:00:12 <I440r> brb
20:00:18 <snowrichard> I've done assembly on IBM 360, 6502, 6800, 6809, Z80, one more could not be that hard
20:02:31 <I440r> you shouldnt have any problem
20:03:21 <snowrichard> oh yeah and a 68K 
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20:25:21 <snowrichard> hi
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.08.12