00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.08.09
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04:02:59 <virl> hi vatic 
04:07:10 <vatic> virl: hey! (making b'fast...)
04:12:18 <virl> hmm?
04:14:36 <virl> making what fast?
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04:21:03 <vatic> virl: b (reak) fast...
04:21:54 <virl> ah ok..
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10:45:51 <Quartus> Hey.
11:39:48 <Quartus__> quiet out there... A little TOO quiet.
12:18:38 <juri_> hio.
12:18:44 * juri_ fallls over.
12:40:16 <Quartus__> how's the learning-of-forth going, juri?
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14:36:59 <juri_> horrible? i've been given a week to do a three week job, and everything that could go wrong has.
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15:19:30 <k4jcw> juri_,  That's a normal week for any programmer.
15:19:38 <k4jcw> What's your real excuse?
15:29:18 <virl> YEAH developing software in a time which is completly unrealistic! YEAH! and then everybody wonders why the software is a big patchwork!
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16:40:17 <juri_> concidering the job is bandwidth limited... (raid recovery)..
16:40:29 <juri_> and aparently thermally limited (office gets too hot later in the day)
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18:06:42 <nighty_> re :)
18:06:55 <Raystm2> hi nighty_ :)
18:27:59 <Quartus> Hey.
18:29:09 <k4jcw> moo
18:30:12 <Quartus> k4, I didn't realize you were a cow.
18:30:17 <Quartus> How goes the Forthing?
18:30:42 <k4jcw> Sidetracked.  Been having to update documents, and fix a console app.  So nothing for the last 2 days.
18:52:14 <Quartus> Excuse noted and logged. :)
18:52:35 <Raystm2> hey Quartus! :)
18:52:45 <Quartus> Hey Raystm2.
18:53:21 <Raystm2> I said hey yesterday but ya'll were just to engrossed to notice so I just left it alone :)
18:53:37 <Quartus> Sorry about that.  I had some connection issues, I might have missed it.
18:55:31 <Raystm2> it's quite alright. Ya'll are very obviously friends and I really didn't wanna break up the convo, so I kept quiet. :)
18:56:17 <Quartus> How are things?
18:59:14 <Raystm2> cool. working ( supposed to be working ) on the RxChess manual.
18:59:54 <Raystm2> the board is down to one execution command and takes a consistant stream of base 18 number data or 'characters.
18:59:56 <Quartus> A manual, eh? So you've finalized what the program is and does?
19:00:31 <Raystm2> not finalized but as a smart-board, it's totally usable, always has been I suppose, from inception.
19:00:54 <Raystm2> no this will take a decade or so...
19:01:05 <Raystm2> :)
19:01:30 <Raystm2> you know, start with something that works, and keep on making it work better.
19:06:32 <Raystm2> is QuartusForth finished? does it have a manual that you update with every change?
19:07:55 <Quartus> It does.  I thought you were still in early stages, though.
19:08:06 <Quartus> Experimenting with approaches, etc.
19:08:19 <Raystm2> yes, it is early,m but it still works great, if I say so myself.
19:08:28 <Quartus> I don't doubt it.  That wasn't why I asked.
19:09:12 <Raystm2> but I've done most of the testing in B18Chess and in the colorforth chesses I've developed since learning forth. Chess is my hello world and i'm learning retroforth :)
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19:09:40 <Raystm2> you'll get a chess out of me yet when I learn Quartus.
19:10:13 <Raystm2> I owe Isforth and factor first. I'm thinking of developing the three together.
19:10:31 <Raystm2> have to learn factor first.
19:10:55 <Quartus> Quartus is a Standard Forth, so an ANS version should do the trick.
19:11:03 <Raystm2> :) cool.
19:11:22 <Raystm2> I'd love to develop something in ANS
19:11:57 * Raystm2 is a language whore and doesn't give a rats behind about standards wars.
19:12:41 <Raystm2> well, b18Chess is Gforth and Win32forth, so I suppose i've done ANS already, but not on a neat mobile device.
19:12:53 <Quartus> Oh. Didn't realize you'd done a Gforth version. Where can I see it?
19:13:02 <Raystm2> umm...
19:13:23 <Raystm2> I know, I'll put it with the RxChess along with the colorforth ones so I can give a history.
19:13:38 <Raystm2> it doesn't have a PGN translator yet.
19:13:47 <Quartus> Ok.
19:14:04 <Raystm2> but it does lots of the things you mentioned the other day.
19:14:24 <Raystm2> like destination only pawn moves...
19:14:57 <Raystm2> automatic en passant pawn taking...
19:15:13 <Raystm2> it has persistance, you can close or crash and come back to the game where you left off.
19:15:59 <Quartus> Automatic en passant pawn taking?
19:16:00 <Raystm2> AND ( /me is sorta proud so please bear with ) I figured it all out myself after reading the MVP tutorial and starting forth.
19:17:19 <Raystm2> ya, well actually that's this new board that does that. I suppose I meant to say that you have an en passant command " ep" and all you give is the moving pawns file and the ep is executed automatically.
19:17:47 <Raystm2> like ep e or e ep as well as you might forget the order of command
19:18:46 <Quartus> Oh ok.  In pgn you'd just list a xe5 or whatever as though the target pawn was there even though it isn't.
19:22:59 <Raystm2> is that so. I'm still learning PGN.
19:23:30 <Raystm2> I thought it was ep alone, but when you need to disambiguate you give the file.
19:23:50 <Raystm2> ep-e or something like that.
19:24:20 <Raystm2> why do I splay disinformation /me google real quick and learns instead.
19:24:47 <Raystm2> http://retroforth.net/board/index.php/topic,208.0.html
19:24:58 <Raystm2> prob'ly should have read this before reading the code.
19:28:33 <Raystm2> ya you're right. xe6 would be an ep entry as if the offending pawn were on the ep-target square.
19:29:00 <Raystm2> ep only  occures on the 6th rank when white is taking or 3rd for black.
19:29:18 <Raystm2> but you knew this.
19:34:56 <Quartus> I did. :)
19:37:22 <Raystm2> http://retroforth.org/projects/RxChess/ this is the new idea
19:37:53 <Raystm2> the manual won't help you. go directly to the repo for the code.
19:38:26 <nighty_> Quartus: I got all your emails :)
19:38:37 <nighty_> Quartus: they were where I thought they would be :)
19:41:06 <Quartus> Just one, right?
19:43:01 <nighty_> Raystm2: does it have a UI ? 
19:43:27 <nighty_> Raystm2: or it is just outputting raw moves ? 
19:44:29 <nighty_> Raystm2: if someone makes a better one 
19:44:51 <nighty_> Raystm2: and they all are able to start an IRC session /query
19:45:03 <nighty_> Raystm2: we could have tournaments or chess programs :)
19:45:09 <nighty_> s/or/of
19:45:53 <nighty_> provided they all have a standard way to exchange moves :)
19:46:05 <nighty_> actually this would be pretty neat
19:46:16 <nighty_> maybe it already exists ? 
19:47:48 <Quartus> ICS.
19:49:17 <Raystm2> yes nighty_, retroforth has and irc client that i will use. 
19:49:40 <Raystm2> also, their is a ui for ascii-graphical...
19:49:59 <Raystm2> that can be easily vectored to become picto-graphical.
19:50:32 <Raystm2> I'm working on game mechanics currently but prettier boards are down the road.
19:51:14 <Raystm2> best thing about retroforth is that it already works on 99% of all computers built and in so many os's that I don't know them all, and it can run native.
19:51:37 <Raystm2> code once--share with the world.
19:52:37 <Raystm2> i'll expand this simple board next, then begin the PGN translator layer. oh yeah and persistance, that's comming soon because i use it for undo.
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21:39:02 <Quartus> nighty_, some reviews here: http://www.canadiandriver.com/overviews/index.php
21:39:13 <Quartus> cost info available (subscription) here: http://carcostcanada.com/1/en/
21:41:08 <nighty_> :)
21:41:09 <nighty_> thanks 
21:41:35 * nighty_ is resorting to some heavy duty object hacking 
21:41:37 <nighty_> in ruby
21:43:29 <Raystm2> Quartus: Is there a such thing as a Canadian Vehical?
21:44:38 * Raystm2 realizes that most GM cars are made in some carriage house in Canada, name escapes me now.
21:44:48 <Raystm2> Fisher.
21:44:50 <Quartus> Raystm2, I don't know.
21:46:32 <Raystm2> Are Pickup trucks popular in Canada?
21:46:41 <Quartus> I see more of them outside of Toronto than in it.
21:46:57 <Raystm2> That makes perfect sense.
21:47:12 <Raystm2> Texas is big on all kinds of trucks.
21:47:33 <Quartus> There's less of the 'big vehicle' thing going on up here generally than there is in the US.
21:47:41 <Raystm2> ya.
21:47:49 <Raystm2> smart.
21:47:59 <Raystm2> Big vehicals make big wrecks.
21:48:17 <Raystm2> little vehicals nearly bounce off of snow embankments.
21:48:39 <Quartus> We do get snow.
21:48:51 * Raystm2 remembers snow
21:49:15 <Quartus> We get all the seasons.  Strong on summer right now, too hot up here.
21:49:55 <Raystm2> one day and i mean one day since my kids were born, they gathered up all the snow in the adjacent yards and got there snowman in the paper.
21:50:11 <Raystm2> their even
21:50:19 <Raystm2> ya I bet it's hot.
21:50:25 <Raystm2> 103 here today.
21:50:32 <Raystm2> whats that c
21:50:37 <Raystm2> like 35 or so?
21:51:06 <Quartus> 39.4.
21:51:10 <Raystm2> is it 40? or is that way too high
21:51:11 <Raystm2> ya
21:51:43 <Raystm2> our warehouse is like an oven and I don't envy those employees.
21:52:28 <Quartus> : F>C ( F -- C )  32 - 5 9 */ ;
21:52:43 <Raystm2> :) okay okay i'll stop being so lazy :)
21:53:02 <Quartus> : C>F ( C -- F )  9 5 */ 32 + ;
21:53:08 * Raystm2 was doing it in head when I got 40
21:53:16 <Quartus> Not being critical, just putting some Forth in the channel. :)
21:53:35 <Raystm2> :)
21:53:56 <ayrnieu> hosers add: Raystm2
21:54:40 * Raystm2 is Canadian French on fathers fathers side.
21:54:52 <Raystm2> 1/2 even.
21:55:03 <Raystm2> other half Spanish and Irish.
21:56:42 <Raystm2> I'm told our people stopped in MA when the Arcadians were moving to become Cajons.
21:57:03 * Raystm2 saved from being a Coonass.
21:58:41 <Quartus> This guy jacko in c.l.f. is almost as incoherent as werty.
21:58:52 * Raystm2 gave up on the list. 
21:58:55 <Raystm2> I should go back.
21:59:08 <Quartus> There's some entertainment value.
21:59:19 <Raystm2> I'm likeing the more focused IRC chats. 
21:59:23 <Raystm2> I agree with you there.
21:59:42 <Quartus> We only get the somewhat-demented in here, the real nutters are elsewhere.
21:59:55 <Raystm2> that's true.
22:00:11 <Raystm2> fools don't suffer long.
22:00:11 <Quartus> Where is Quiznos tonight, anyway?
22:00:16 <Raystm2> ooooh.
22:00:18 <Raystm2> shhhh.
22:00:37 <ayrnieu> no, fools suffer longer than any other kind.
22:00:51 <Raystm2> :)
22:02:50 <Quartus> Somebody passed me a link to a satirical piece about 'coding for God' or something like that -- never test your code, as your hand was guided by the Almighty; accept any errors in the code as part of His great design, etc.  Mildly amusing.
22:03:21 <Raystm2> I like that kind of humor.
22:03:48 <Raystm2> "If it's not in the bible, it can't be done" kinda stuff.
22:03:53 <Raystm2> or manual right.
22:04:16 <Quartus> Like I said last time, remember what the Apostle Paul wrote about programming --
22:04:20 <Quartus> NOTHING WHATSOEVER.
22:05:50 <Raystm2> have you seen this thing about the Aug 22 date being important in the muslim world? and that something is expected to happen then?
22:06:06 <Quartus> No, I haven't.
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22:08:10 <Raystm2> Something about the Profit's journey or the like. An important date. Analists are speculating an important guesture like maybe Iran testing a bomb but in a very inconvenient place.
22:09:12 <Quartus> That would be tactically imprudent, but then there's not a lot of rational thought in that camp.
22:09:19 <ayrnieu> prophet.  analysts.
22:09:33 <Raystm2> thack you :) hehe
22:09:49 * Raystm2 hasn't had to spell in years.
22:10:45 <ayrnieu> your spelling makes it sound as if you got this wonderful intel from some source too contemptuous of the subject.
22:11:00 <Raystm2> ooohh. 
22:11:08 <Quartus> Is it possible to be too contemptuous of this subject?
22:11:13 * Raystm2 tries a little more respect of the language.
22:11:39 <ayrnieu> Quartus - yes.  See intentional use of 'Profit' vice 'Prophet' and 'Analists' vice 'Analysts'.
22:12:07 <Raystm2> mine really were spelling errors...
22:12:50 <Quartus> Even if intentional, at best it's an ill-guided expression of contempt, but I don't think there's an upper allowable limit for contempt for bloody-minded religious zealots intent on destroying anyone who disagrees with them.
22:12:57 <Raystm2> but I now see a problem with being taken wrong by creative usage of spelling.
22:13:47 <Raystm2> It's education. I know you know that but it is. And they will never see the world as we do.
22:14:13 <Raystm2> and we are too invested to go back.
22:14:20 <Raystm2> Impass.
22:14:48 <ayrnieu> All 'impasses' are temporary.
22:14:58 <Raystm2> I hope so.
22:15:26 <Raystm2> Tv. the great equalizer.
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22:16:01 <ayrnieu> you mispelled 'the internet', and you're still wrong.
22:16:55 <Raystm2> hi cheery. 
22:17:14 <Raystm2> I misspelled "the internet"? When, when I said tv?
22:17:20 * ayrnieu discovers http://hymn-project.org/
22:17:34 <Raystm2> dare I link over?
22:18:17 <ayrnieu> pirata et lupa de colle ambulant.
22:18:46 <Quartus> Raystm2, it's apparently just a poor choice of name for a project to free iTunes music from its DRM.
22:19:18 <Raystm2> I do like the O'Connor quote, but I'm feeling generous about now.
22:20:20 <ayrnieu> Quartus - why is the name poor?
22:21:40 <Quartus> Obvious Christian connotations.
22:22:17 <Quartus> And it's not descriptive of the project in any way; you have to read what's at the site to have any clue about it.
22:23:25 * ayrnieu shrugs.
22:23:32 <Raystm2> Christians prob'ly find this sight more than anybody else and might even have a problem with the concept, never useing it.
22:24:25 <Quartus> I don't know.  I read through the page expecting some mention of Jesus somewhere.  I'm still not entirely sure why the name.
22:25:28 <Raystm2> Holy-er-then-thou point of view is enough for me.
22:25:57 <Raystm2> Associating with a moral high ground.
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22:27:17 <Raystm2> Did we offend, maybe?
22:27:34 <Quartus> I poked around two FAQs from that site, and I can't see any rationale for the choice of name for the software. 
22:27:36 <Quartus> Oh, probably, Raystm2.
22:28:05 <Raystm2> Hymn being the moral music...
22:29:00 <Quartus> Songs of praise and adulation to a god.  Somehow related to 'information wants to be free'.  A crusade against the heathen DRMers?
22:29:18 <Raystm2> ya. that's what i'm thinkin'
22:30:29 <Quartus> The first paragraph of the documentation makes it clear that the intent of the project is not to promote piracy. :)
22:30:59 <Raystm2> Umm, ya right. What else does it do, besides?
22:31:28 <Quartus> Well, you have to understand, people are forced to buy music from iTunes.
22:31:30 <Quartus> Oh wait, no they're not.
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22:31:54 <Raystm2> hahahaha
22:32:19 <Raystm2> You mean people no longer tape from Radio?
22:32:41 <Quartus> It's a mystery to me.  If you disagree with somebody's approach to doing business, don't give them your money.
22:32:51 <Raystm2> yup.
22:33:24 <Raystm2> doesn't every semi decent tape player have a dup deck right on board?
22:33:37 <Raystm2> like since the early 80's or so?
22:33:45 <Quartus> Heh. Last one I owned did, but that was awhile ago.  Tapes are pretty hard to find nowadays.
22:34:08 <Raystm2> sure but same concept different year, tech, what have you.
22:34:42 <Raystm2> I don't remember anybody worried about losing money then. Maybe it's just easier now.
22:34:57 <Raystm2> Happens faster.
22:35:03 <Quartus> Maybe so.
22:38:54 <Raystm2> If you do ever look at the RxChess, please give me your frank opinion. I'm interested in making this good, and value you your experiance. 
22:39:15 <Quartus> Sure.  Is the Gforth version up anywhere for looking at?
22:39:33 <nighty_> good night :)
22:39:35 <Raystm2> oh yes indeed. it's different but here ya go.
22:39:42 <Raystm2> good night nighty_ :)
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22:40:40 <Raystm2> http://retroforth.net/board/index.php/topic,208.0.html 
22:40:48 <Raystm2> third entry has the link
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22:41:59 <Quartus> At first glance, that is some cryptic Forth.  :)  I'll have to dig into it further.
22:43:29 <Raystm2> Ya, it's all wrong really.
22:43:36 <Raystm2> no design to speak of 
22:44:03 <Raystm2> it's my very first forth code.
22:44:27 <Raystm2> the retroforth one is much better.
22:46:30 <Quartus> Unfortunately I'm not well-versed in retroforth.  I looked at a version a few months ago, but I understand it's changed somewhat since.
22:46:53 <Raystm2> yes. 
22:47:02 <Raystm2> I truely like where crc is taking his forth.
22:47:24 <Raystm2> it's tight, tiny, and expressive.
22:47:59 <Raystm2> I guess you could say that about forth in general, but...
22:48:03 <Quartus> I recall there was some work underway to allow for ANS compatibility, which would interest me.
22:48:42 <Raystm2> crc has an ANS extension. It's not complete.
22:49:31 <Raystm2> crc is not opposed to ANS in any way, just somethings he sees doing different for Retro.
22:49:52 <Quartus> Sure, it's not a criticism. 
22:50:23 <Raystm2> He has a list of what is and is not included. 
22:54:22 <Raystm2> http://www.retroforth.org/repos/library/files/ans.forth 
22:54:32 <Raystm2> found ans.forth for retroforth
22:56:23 <Quartus> Where's the list of the is/is not?
23:07:30 <Raystm2> column "included in" 
23:07:37 <Raystm2> --- = is not
23:07:53 <Raystm2> otherwise it reports where to find it. 
23:07:59 <Raystm2> or in the case of library 
23:08:11 <Raystm2> defines it right there in the file.
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23:09:11 <Raystm2>  Rx means it's in the core lib that can be used in c proggies.
23:10:20 <Raystm2> sorry, "Implemented In" 
23:11:14 <Quartus> That column of "included in" is where?
23:11:50 <Raystm2> sorry it's "Implemented in" 
23:12:00 <Quartus> oh, in that source file. Ok. But it doesn't have a "not implemented", does it?
23:12:10 <Raystm2> ya - - -
23:12:16 <Raystm2> not many are missing.
23:12:33 <Quartus> Oh I see. Ok, I can grep that.
23:12:39 <Raystm2> ya
23:13:32 <Quartus> The exceptions strike me as trivial to implmenet.
23:13:34 <Quartus> er, implement.
23:14:12 <Quartus> EVALUATE stands out.  I wonder why that's not something RetroForth can do?
23:16:13 <Raystm2> don't know the answer to that one.
23:16:40 <Quartus> Google suggests there's an 'eval' word.
23:16:52 <Raystm2> ya, might be different tho.
23:17:25 <Quartus> From the short glossary description, seems the same.  Maybe it can't nest another instance of eval, or something.
23:17:49 <Raystm2> ya. 
23:17:58 <Raystm2> maybe an omission.
23:18:34 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-20-242.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
23:20:45 <Quartus> Don't know.  I just tried the latest build, it seems to work.
23:23:14 <Quartus> Is    include <file>  the retroforth way?
23:24:25 --- quit: segher (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:24:50 <Quartus> I ask because including that ans file crashes it hard.
23:25:04 <Quartus> It does seem to include it, but it bombs out at the first \ line.
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23:25:32 <Quartus> Yup.
23:25:39 <Quartus> ' | is \  \ hello        crashes rf under windows.
23:27:06 <Quartus> Looks like any word I create with "is" crashes rf under windows.
23:27:09 <Raystm2> ooh sorry yes.
23:27:12 <Raystm2> umm 
23:27:14 <Raystm2> it's 
23:27:23 <Raystm2> include <file> \f
23:27:38 <Raystm2> or possibly ( sorry again) 
23:27:46 <Raystm2> include <file> -f
23:27:55 <Quartus> That's not the trouble... I can include it just fine, but the first use of \ crashes.
23:28:02 <Quartus> As I said:         ' | is \  \ hello        crashes rf under windows.
23:28:04 <Quartus> So does
23:28:12 <Quartus> : foo ." Hello" type ;  ' foo is bar    bar
23:28:50 <Raystm2> hmm /me lights up 9.2.6
23:29:45 <Raystm2> sure does doesn't it :)
23:30:04 * Raystm2 makes a note to crc
23:30:20 <Quartus> I recommend automated regression testing.
23:31:57 <Raystm2> 9.2.6 came out yesterday.
23:32:04 <Raystm2> I think.
23:32:29 <Raystm2> ya regression testing good.
23:32:32 <Quartus> I ran automated regression tests on every modification to Quartus Forth -- that's the only way I could know that new work didn't break the existing foundations. :)
23:32:42 <Raystm2> cool.
23:32:54 <Raystm2> sounds complicated and fun at the same time.
23:33:22 <Quartus> Really, really simple.  Built around tester.fs.  Started with coretest.fs, added new  { before -> after }  test lines to it as I went.
23:35:48 <Quartus> If I fixed a bug, I added a { -> } test to confirm it was gone and stayed gone.
23:37:07 <Raystm2> very cool. /me must remember to do such a thing.
23:37:20 <Raystm2> Nan is home now. she craves attention :)
23:37:22 <Quartus> I do the same thing in app development.
23:37:33 <Quartus> Ok :) Do what must be done.
23:37:41 <Raystm2> makes sence.
23:37:42 --- quit: Quartus__ ("used jmIrc")
23:37:48 <Quartus> See ya later.
23:37:56 <Raystm2> and she left the room.
23:38:02 <Raystm2> I must remember those files.
23:38:20 <Quartus> Tester is a really simple facility based around EVALUATE.
23:38:30 <Raystm2> she's leaving the building.
23:38:36 <Raystm2> cool.
23:42:00 <Quartus> What's the rf version of do/loop?
23:43:39 <Quartus> I'm trying to port tester.fs, but running into weirdness at every step.  I moved DEPTH in from the ANS file, and did the same with DO I and LOOP, but can't make a simple  : t 9 0 do i . loop ;   work.
23:45:03 <Raystm2> hmm i've not used do/loop yet. I do for/next.
23:45:50 <Quartus> Ok, I'll try that.  What reads the top of the return stack inside a for/next?  I tried r@.  I want i.
23:45:53 <Raystm2> the count in a for/next is r
23:46:14 <Quartus> Ah. No doubt the shorter name saves a lot of typing at only the cost of breaking 36 years of tradition. :)
23:46:35 <Raystm2> He's not worried about tradition :)
23:46:55 <Quartus> Or testing.
23:47:03 <Raystm2> He's not opposed to change either.
23:47:27 <Raystm2> I'm sure if someone mentioned a test suite he'd use it.
23:48:04 <Raystm2> his /mod used to return backwards.
23:48:11 <Raystm2> he changed it.
23:48:17 <Raystm2> He's reasonable.
23:55:25 <Quartus> I see tib, is there a way to find the length of the current input line?
23:57:00 <Raystm2> I'll see if I can find.
23:58:22 <Quartus> I'm messing around with >in and parse but so far very odd things are happening.
23:58:36 <Quartus> I think it pulls in included files as one long line.
23:59:29 <Quartus> Is there any equivalent to abort?
23:59:43 <Quartus> Ah, I see something in the ans stuff.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.08.09