00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.29 00:00:11 i'll tell you what the essence of forth is: 00:00:17 it is spirit. 00:00:19 :) 00:02:39 :) 00:03:33 hey 00:03:52 what is going on? 00:04:00 look up. 00:04:08 oh 00:04:32 get it? :) 01:22:34 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed") 01:26:30 --- part: LOOP-HOG left #forth 03:59:11 --- join: johnnowak (n=johnnowa@ool-4354daab.dyn.optonline.net) joined #forth 04:00:30 --- quit: virl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:06:18 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth 04:08:34 --- join: pleasure2008 (n=zhnangxi@221.206.246.111) joined #forth 04:11:52 --- part: pleasure2008 left #forth 04:31:11 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool65-81.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:38:13 --- quit: johnnowak () 04:40:27 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 05:49:57 hmm.. I think I got the basic API.. maybe. Now, need the engine-API/FFI.. I think. 05:52:24 oh.. wait.. Darn. 06:36:27 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 07:24:28 --- quit: Zymurgy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:26:57 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 07:27:15 --- join: Zymurgy (i=zymurgy@64.62.231.194) joined #forth 07:29:07 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-11.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:33:58 --- join: Zymurgy_ (i=zymurgy@cat.delfax.net) joined #forth 07:42:01 --- quit: Zymurgy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:10:47 good morning 08:11:34 howdy 08:31:16 --- join: JasonWoof (n=jason@c-71-192-33-206.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:31:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o JasonWoof 08:40:45 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@adsl-70-241-19-241.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 08:49:03 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-148-227.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 08:56:42 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:25:01 --- join: bjorkBSD (n=bjork@ip70-178-169-173.ks.ks.cox.net) joined #forth 09:25:47 --- part: bjorkBSD left #forth 09:42:58 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:12:28 ok, time to hack konqueror to get rid of that #&*@^*$@&# dialog that asks about saving my passwords all the time 10:19:15 JasonWoof dont forget to SHARE! :)- 10:19:58 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Vazooom!") 10:22:03 you want the diff now? or do you want to wait until I compile and test it? 10:25:22 I'll let you choose... http://jasonwoof.com/downloads/kdelibs-3.5.3-nosavepass.diff 10:25:30 I'll report back later today when it's done compiling 10:26:13 note that I left the line in that adds the url to the list of sites to never save passwords for 10:26:22 ie it acts as though you clicked "never for this site" 12:02:36 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #forth 12:04:30 --- quit: Quartus_ (Client Quit) 12:08:20 suprise, suprise 12:08:25 ie6 doesn't display my css properly 12:08:29 pretty close though... 12:09:11 been playing with the stylesheets for my wiki 12:09:12 http://jasonwoof.org/jason_s_diffs 12:09:26 put the background and border on the h2/h3 tags 12:09:35 and made images float instead of sticking them in a table 12:09:39 http://mendel.livejournal.com/123719.html 12:09:56 in my ie6 (under wine =)) the border at the top is double thick 12:09:59 can't figure out why 12:10:33 border-top: 0px seems pretty clear to me 12:12:56 ayrnieu: :) that was a fun read 12:14:25 if anybody can test my site with safari and send me a screenshot that'd be cool 12:30:53 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-186-078.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:39:01 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:39:11 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:20:34 ok 2.6.17 tickless is ready to go; pray that i return 13:20:47 --- quit: Quiznos ("Connection reset by queer") 13:21:00 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-36-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 13:26:18 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:13:49 --- join: Quiznos (i=1000@69-168-231-199.bflony.adelphia.net) joined #forth 14:13:56 re\ 14:13:58 re 14:25:38 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:47:51 wow, konqueror prints an error that it couldn't load khtml 14:48:09 (probably because I recompiled kdelibs with gcc 4 14:48:27 and now it doesn't render pages, but displays the html source beautifully 14:48:54 which is funny, because before when konqueror worked, the "view source" feature didn't work at all (didn't do anything) 14:52:03 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-36-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 14:52:26 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:18:34 --- nick: Quiznos -> GoogleMaster 15:19:28 --- nick: GoogleMaster -> PissedPurpleSmur 15:19:41 --- nick: PissedPurpleSmur -> PurpleSmurf 15:20:13 --- nick: PurpleSmurf -> MetaAnanias 15:21:28 --- nick: MetaAnanias -> Quibbler 15:31:43 --- nick: Quibbler -> Quiznos 15:34:26 --- nick: Quiznos -> Quibbler 15:34:28 --- nick: Quibbler -> Quiznos 16:16:40 fascinating. 16:44:43 what is? 16:45:53 your nick changes. 16:46:04 oh sorry, i was showing off ;) 17:10:54 ayrnieu, is this you in comp.lang.forth ": 0allot ( n -- ) here swap dup allot erase ; 17:11:04 -- with the no-space-after-comment-close ? 17:11:18 Oh hang on, maybe there is one there. 17:11:45 Ok, my font issue. Looks like no space. 17:13:49 get a better kerning font 17:13:56 or, get a font that has better kerning 17:20:29 aye, that's me. 17:20:41 hehe 17:21:05 I thought at first you were using "kerning" as a clever replacement for the f word 17:21:27 You thought you were facing the right direction for 'clever' to be happening? 17:21:28 "Can't stand these kerning java freaks!" 17:21:38 http://www.lyzrdstomp.com/tutorial_kerning/ 17:22:29 I know what kerning is 17:22:33 I just thought it was a noun 17:22:55 http://del.icio.us/search/?all=kerning 17:23:36 I feel vaguely impatient 17:24:21 I'll take a shower... maybe that'll help ;) 17:24:51 JasonWoof - read this paper: http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/cs.MA/0603125 17:26:14 I find the synopsis sufficiently opaque to keep me from attempting the entire article. 17:27:35 Read the article anyway. The synopsis covers everything, whereas the introduction introducts. 17:28:07 I disagree with the first sentence in the synopsis. 17:28:34 I think I disagree with the second one, but it becomes more difficult to tell, because the bullshit level ramps up. 17:28:57 The introduction handles the first assertion well, I think. 17:29:05 Sentence 3 is probably also bullshit, being that it's between sentence 2 and sentence 4, but I can't be sure about that either. 17:29:27 Sentence 4 and 5 are clearly bullshit. So the article frightens me. 17:30:24 * docl agrees with Quartus on this one 17:30:54 Well, you don't need me to help you discover things you'd prefer to not read against my recommendation to someone else. 17:31:10 * docl is reading the article 17:31:12 Hang on, I need about an hour to unpack that sentence. :) 17:31:53 ...cross out all pairs of apparently consistent negatives... carry the one... divide by my shoe size... 17:31:57 nope, still can't figure it out :) 17:32:38 Well, you still have 59 minutes. 17:33:44 ayrnieu: could you explain what you got out of the article? 17:33:47 Here's something more thoroughly, in-your-face bullshit: http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/cs.GL/0607022 17:39:04 Not written by a CS grad student who just watched the Matrix, at least. 17:39:08 * docl finally figured out what the heck was making it undreadable 17:39:26 docl - not really, no. I focused on the part prior to where it starts on agents, with computation and tools for computation. I was initially enchanted by the tree-in-a-forest questions. Also, I'd heard recently of a Japanese water-purity system wherein computers monitor the behavior patterns of a certain type of fish, kept in a tank. The fish swim in predictable ways in response to water toxins. 17:39:56 12C04=99 17:40:04 THINK !!! 17:40:09 But I don't know what you'd look for in what I 'got out of it'. 17:40:55 ..." precision principled practice modeling" 17:41:12 docl, is that from the article? I made the right choice. 17:41:21 yup 17:41:33 take a look at the first sentance of the pdf 17:41:43 Ok. 17:41:57 ayrnieu: I can't make any sense of that paper 17:42:00 Today the software industry is isolated, inward looking, insular, inbred, and inertial. 17:42:28 docl, which first sentence? The title annoys me enough. The first sentence of the abstract? 17:42:36 * docl gets the feeling the paper wasn't intended to be taken all that seriously 17:42:58 the introduction (the second article ayrnieu mentioned) 17:43:01 Oh, the second one. 17:43:50 from the first: 2.1 A brief history of the internalization and then the externalization of thought 17:43:55 docl, high marks for using words starting with i, though. 17:45:39 not bad 17:45:49 I did a short performance once using only words that start with I 17:45:50 Better would be 'introverted' rather than 'inward looking'. 17:46:19 very short :) 17:46:35 introverted has too much baggage. 17:46:52 ayrnieu: as opposed to "inbred"?!? 17:46:57 Baggage is the sole raison d'etre of both of those bilious PDFs. 17:47:03 also, 'inward looking' keeps up the step of blatantly negative terms. 17:47:23 what's "keeps up the step" mean? 17:47:41 connotations are the thing 17:47:46 "inertial" isnt' a negatively-weighted term. 17:48:00 just weighted, ya know? 17:48:17 the whole point of that sentance is to say how badly things are going 17:48:18 Quartus - if someone pushes you down a hill and you just go with inertia, an observer might wonder negatively of you. 17:48:23 what's so bad about being negative, anyway? 17:48:43 ayrnieu, maybe. That's not relevant to the use of the word in this sentence. 17:49:03 Quartus - sure, except that it is, being exactly the meaning intended. 17:49:20 I guess having no real square root would be kinda wierd 17:50:07 Inertial. He was reaching for a word that started with I so he could round out his straight flush. After 'inbred', nobody with a clue is still reading, so whatever you perceive to be his actual i-based intention is completely unimportant. 17:50:11 Quartus - 'inertial' here is another way of saying 'stupid'. The robot never engages its I-mode. 17:50:54 Robot? 17:52:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach talks about 'modes'. 'The robot' is just part of my example. 17:52:10 inertial was probably intended to mean inflexible, i.e. unwilling to change direction. 17:52:32 docl, maybe. After 'inbred' the author has lost me as an audience. 17:52:44 * docl understands fully :) 17:53:31 Being formatted using LaTeX and published as a PDF is just not the badge of honour it used to be. :) 17:53:57 Quartus - I forget the terms the book used, but if in F-mode you can process a list of instructions "add 1 to foo", with fifty such instructions, all "add 1 to foo" on one page, with two thousand pages, and continue through it incrementing a foo for each instruction individually until you finish -- then in I-mode you can say "wait, this is stupid. I can, um, just count the number of pages, and then multiply by 50." 17:55:05 ayrnieu, ok. I was referring to this feeb using five adjectives all starting with 'i', but I'm sure that other thing is just great too. 17:55:06 IAC, I offered the second paper as bullshit. The first paper is still wonderful. 17:56:04 hmm 17:57:09 basically it's saying that computations are not inherently meaningful? 17:57:41 Actually from what I can see, the second paper may actually have something to say, although it's said very badly. The first paper is so soaked in bullshit that it becomes completely immediately impenetrable. 17:57:43 but that's a subjective statement, because "meaning" is something we assign as humans 17:57:56 Quartus - oh, nonsense. 17:58:07 whereas computers assign only values 17:58:43 but not *value* values :P 17:59:26 docl - it talks about assigning meaning to natural processes which can be seen to engage in 'unconvential computations'. 17:59:53 well, computers are every bit as natural. why is unconventional any different from "conventional"? 18:00:25 docl - I take that as an undefined term. It doesn't matter, but probably elsewhere in this field there's literature classifying computation in this way. 18:00:57 so it's basically about a piece of jargon 18:01:27 philosophical jargon + computer jargon = ? 18:01:53 I don't care about the jargon name you have for jargon. 18:02:15 well, I'd call it 'CS jargon' with nothing else to go by. 18:02:48 bs jargon? 18:02:59 :P 18:03:36 Oh yeah. 18:03:37 docl - yes, the paper also talks about computers. I recall liking some emphasis it put on setting up an environment for computation to take place. 18:03:56 Like those Japanese fish, above. 18:04:06 thing is you can define reality to include only your subjective experience if you *want* to. but that only makes it an imperfect definition, perhaps useful in some circumstances. 18:04:19 And what connection do you draw between that paper and a bunch of Japanese fish-poisoners? 18:05:23 it is a good point that you can't generally get useful computations without setting up a specialized environment for it take place in. 18:05:34 Quartus - just that the Japanese have a machine that detects water toxins. Just like I could plant a tree and have a machine that counts the years my newly-constructed house has been in existence -- supposing that anyone makes the connection later on. 18:06:03 Well, that's low on bullshit words, but I really don't follow. 18:06:21 hey, I've a really cool paper that talks about this. 18:06:31 here: http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/cs.MA/0603125 18:06:38 How is having a machine that detects water toxins 'just like' planting a tree, with or without the intention of it acting as a timepiece? 18:07:26 having the machine, he meant 18:08:04 you set up the right machine and you can do just about anything. 18:08:17 And? 18:08:24 google for news about NORAD today. i saw something in a newspaper this morning. 18:10:36 WOPR is on QPAX 18:11:10 http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/uglymyspace/ # shooting fish in a barrel 18:13:20 Poisoned Japenese fish, no doubt. 18:13:33 and actually, yeah, I also enjoyed the second paper. Particularly when it talks about pattern design versus principled design. 18:15:19 perfect principled patterned design :) 18:16:43 http://patricklogan.blogspot.com/2006/03/first-class-nonsense.html 18:33:48 ( even less relatedly: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=253 ) 19:05:10 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:05:59 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 19:06:01 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-230-227.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:23:59 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 20:05:02 --- join: segher__ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-143-115.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 20:17:07 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:40:34 I wish my clients knew how to use their e-mail programs 21:40:36 I really do 21:41:46 The life of a technician is never an easy one, Jason. 21:43:09 well, actually I have a couple clients that don't do e-mail at all. That I'm perfectly happy with 21:43:27 I just resent time wasted trying to decifer their e-mails 21:43:51 Add it to the bill. 21:43:56 because they can't seem to make a visible distiction between what they are saying and what I (or other people) said 21:44:15 I do, but that doesn't make me feel much better 21:44:54 If they were competent, they might not need you. 21:48:02 I don't expect them to be competant at creating web pages 21:48:07 that's what they are paying me for 21:48:20 I do expect them to be able to use the communication mediums that _they_ choose 21:48:35 Plenty of folks are lousy at that. 21:48:42 I'm perfectly happy to do all the communication over the phone 21:48:53 IM 21:48:59 in person... 21:49:00 whatever 21:49:08 I'm sure they could be just as vague and confusing in other media. 21:49:30 well, an advantage of a phone conversation is I can tell who's saying what 21:49:50 It lacks the benefit of a historical trail. 21:49:54 yep 21:50:04 I like e-mail for sending details I want them to remember 23:23:59 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-143-207.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 23:36:55 --- quit: segher__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:51:31 morning 23:58:38 morning 23:58:51 still night here :) 23:59:09 mmm... I should go to bed though 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.29