00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.26
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10:48:16 <madwork> SEAforth looks neat.
10:48:54 <virl> when there would be some data on the website like tools and so on, it would be neater.
10:49:41 <madwork> Chuck Moore was involved. Cool.
10:50:01 <virl> I hope I get one of them
10:50:19 <madwork> Instruction set: http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/12692/Figure_02.jpg
10:50:59 <madwork> They are fairly cheap... $19?
10:51:24 <Quartus_> This is the latest thing Fox was being a total dink about in c.l.f.
10:51:25 <virl> I hope you get one of them as a privat person, like me
10:51:45 <madwork> Quartus_, heh... how so?
10:51:54 <virl> wah, they need to update their website, how lame are they?
10:51:56 <madwork> virl, as opposed to what? A public person?
10:52:01 <madwork> Or company?
10:52:20 <virl> a normal person
10:52:28 <virl> not a fucking company
10:53:12 <madwork> What does it matter?
10:53:26 <madwork> We all need to make a living, after all.
10:54:20 <PoppaVic> money is nice
10:54:53 <virl> wtf?
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10:57:02 <Quiznos> re
10:57:16 <PoppaVic> virl: money enables you to "make a living" - is this an odd concept?
10:58:02 <madwork> It's not the 24th century just yet. 
10:58:02 <virl> are you so stupid?
10:58:51 <PoppaVic> madwork: I guess I'm stupid - thinking of a living versus virls-ideal
10:58:55 <virl> I meant that I'm a normal person, so not a company, so I CANT buy things which are only sold to COMPANIES
10:59:03 <PoppaVic> ahhh
10:59:18 <PoppaVic> Then SAY that that, the "context" was important.
10:59:20 <Quiznos> hi, miss me?
10:59:22 <Quiznos> :)
10:59:24 <virl> and that for examples are things like microcontrollers
10:59:36 <madwork> Quiznos, yes, we were getting hungry.
10:59:42 <Quiznos> :)
10:59:43 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: only in comparison to virl or ##C ;-)
10:59:53 <Quiznos> good
11:00:24 <PoppaVic> virl: there are a lot of cpu - so what?
11:00:42 <virl> what the hell do you mean?
11:01:21 <PoppaVic> virl: you know? Yer rudeness and foulness really does not offset yer value.
11:01:44 <PoppaVic> I responded to a few of your comments. Period.
11:01:50 <Quiznos> PoppaVic actually, roodness and foulness would discount a value ;)
11:02:14 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: they better be adjectives to stack posts.
11:02:58 <Quartus_> madwork, as usual with Fox there's too much inanity to quickly summarize -- check out the thread.
11:03:01 <PoppaVic> virl: you OFTEN get really pissed and defensive. It gets tiresome.
11:03:08 <Quiznos> PoppaVic heh
11:03:30 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: well, I am not an advocate of XML.
11:03:31 <virl> that hasn't anything todo with microcontrollers
11:03:37 <Quiznos> nor am i
11:03:41 * PoppaVic sighs
11:03:48 <Quiznos> it's a three letter commerce
11:04:00 <virl> *ugh* you won't learn it.
11:04:18 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: and, I don't recall any box I've ever had a shell on that suffered MCPU
11:04:44 <Quiznos> "suffered"?
11:05:06 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: someone, somewhere is still coordinating - and "XML" is not on my agenda ;-)
11:05:22 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: yeah, nice quote
11:06:00 <madwork> Xtreem Markup Language!
11:06:17 <virl> why the fucking hell, everytime me.
11:06:26 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: been one of those days - I've gotten peeved with newbies in ##C talking about threads and processors - NOT processes - and all the shit that twists them into knots.
11:06:27 <Quiznos> PoppaVic i'm sorry to report that you might be suffering from heat stroke; i have no idear what you're talkin about :)-
11:06:36 <Quiznos> PoppaVic gotcha!
11:06:48 <Quiznos> there was a missing context
11:07:08 <PoppaVic> yep, even the term "context" seems to bother folks all over
11:07:23 <Quiznos> heh
11:07:24 <Quiznos> k
11:07:39 <virl> what does that have todo with the seaforth cpu. I don't understand your mind
11:08:02 <PoppaVic> virl: goddamnit, you started the fuckin' cursing - and we all tried to ascertain goddamned-why.
11:08:24 <Quiznos> ding ding ding -- back to your corners!
11:08:28 <Quiznos> clean separation!
11:08:40 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: yeah, with sibs - I have practice ;-)
11:08:47 <Quiznos> there ya go
11:08:57 <Quiznos> or y'all both can ignore the other for a day.
11:09:03 <PoppaVic> sure
11:09:17 <Quiznos> it's too hot to be as hot as you both are atm
11:09:29 <virl> I started no cursing.
11:09:38 <Quiznos> i dont care who started it
11:09:39 <PoppaVic> 90% of the time, I like talking with virl or Quartus - doesn't mean I'd invite them into my home and cater, though
11:09:51 <Quiznos> heh
11:09:57 <virl> how stupid must a company be when they shot them into their own flesh?
11:10:09 <PoppaVic> virl: you did. You got upset well before I tweaked yer nose with XML
11:10:11 <Quiznos> who shot?
11:10:27 <PoppaVic> "shot"??
11:10:29 <madwork> XMLForth... now THAT is an idea right there.
11:10:38 <Quiznos> ew
11:10:53 <Quiznos> PoppaVic i duno, someone writ somethin
11:11:01 <virl> PoppaVic, it was your first shot not mine.
11:11:09 <PoppaVic> madwork: virl wants such - it's just.... weird... Ideas w/o the right reasons, near as I can tell
11:11:37 <PoppaVic> <madwork> Or company?
11:11:37 <PoppaVic> <virl> a normal person
11:11:37 <PoppaVic> <virl> not a fucking company
11:11:38 <virl> PoppaVic, you know nothing, you know nothing at all about what I want
11:12:23 <madwork> <colon><name>foo</name><manipulator>dup</manipulator><math>+</math></colon>
11:12:39 <madwork> That would work so great interactively.
11:12:44 <Quiznos> madwork lol
11:12:46 <PoppaVic> virl: I want to be independently wealthy and a prick - so what? I have no not a clue why you get defensive at random and I do NOT like XML to begin with.
11:12:48 <JasonWoof> go xml
11:12:53 <Quiznos> madwork pervert :)
11:12:56 <Quiznos> lol
11:12:56 <madwork> :D
11:13:04 <Quiznos> go asm!
11:13:28 <PoppaVic> madwork: CLASS/klasses
11:13:32 <madwork> <opcode>LOAD</opcode><register>A</register>...
11:13:36 <virl> PoppaVic, I can't describe it in other words, but you are stupid.
11:13:43 <Quiznos> madwork lol
11:14:05 <PoppaVic> virl: thankyou. That simplifies my i/o. Live well
11:14:06 <virl> only because I hacked something with xml, it doesn't mean that I like it. hell, I never said that.
11:14:12 <JasonWoof> xml is usually even worse than that though
11:14:41 <madwork> PoppaVic, use "brand" or "ilk" instead of "class". ;)
11:14:52 <PoppaVic> xml is usually about 100-200 percent more verbose than the next-lower solution.
11:15:06 <PoppaVic> madwork: I call them Klass
11:15:14 <madwork> JasonWoof, yes, much worse. I was being nice, really.
11:15:16 <virl> why, the hell. everytime he begins with this stupid shit.
11:15:24 <PoppaVic> Somewhere, somehow - shit is klass-based.
11:15:31 <JasonWoof> <definition name="foo" namespace="test"><word namespace="manipulator">dup</word><word namespace="math">+</word><word namespace="core">;</word></definition>
11:15:33 <madwork> virl, you could try to relax a little.
11:15:55 * madwork looks at JasonWoof's XML solution paradigm and aneurisms.
11:16:01 <JasonWoof> heh
11:16:08 <JasonWoof> maybe the namespace bit is unsessesary
11:16:20 <madwork> JasonWoof, nothing is unnecessary in XML. :)
11:16:23 <PoppaVic> a namespace itself is a "klass"
11:16:27 <JasonWoof> heh
11:16:33 <madwork> I still like "ilk."
11:16:38 <JasonWoof> it's still insufficient though
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11:16:48 <virl> I don't like XML, hell, why doesn't anybody recognises that!
11:16:53 <JasonWoof> the whole "definition" thing is kinda ambiguous
11:16:58 <PoppaVic> madwork: sure, if I wanted to suffer the whole core of any ANS forth or gforth/pfe
11:17:01 <madwork> virl, we're not saying you like XML.
11:17:08 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: exactly
11:17:22 <madwork> virl, we've gone beyond teasing you and are teasing XML directly. Why not join in?
11:17:31 <JasonWoof> if you're going to store forth in a structured way, you need to know what the elements are
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11:19:40 <JasonWoof> <word action="define_word">foo</word><word action="call">dup</word><word action="call">+</word><word action="call">;</word>
11:19:55 <PoppaVic> no
11:20:00 <JasonWoof> needless to say I've come up with a better way of storing structured source than this :)
11:20:11 <PoppaVic> you only need the id, and handlers.
11:21:06 <PoppaVic> sorry, they call it id/name->xt and THEN we get to code or "handlers"
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11:22:03 <PoppaVic> somewhere, somehow, you look-up "name" and then "run "foo" on the "bar" that name promised.
11:22:33 <Quiznos> paakku anything else?
11:22:49 <PoppaVic> I've been beating the leadin, name, lookup, and termination shit.
11:25:19 <PoppaVic> Frankly, I think 99% of the issue is that there is - classicly - "a parser"
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11:29:48 <madwork> How "structured" does it need to be?
11:29:49 <PoppaVic> I personally feel that every word past "foo[whitespace]" may well change the lexer, parser and handling. AND - why would this matter in RT or "as an interpreter"?
11:30:41 <PoppaVic> maybe the above is just an argv or ASSUMED.
11:31:53 <PoppaVic> "structured" has several levels of meaning.
11:32:41 <PoppaVic> When folks use "domain", I get worried.
11:33:19 <PoppaVic> "domain" to who? a URI parser?
11:39:16 <Quartus_> Ladies and gentlemen, Andy Rooney.
11:39:27 <Quiznos> where?
11:39:36 * Quiznos looks
11:39:36 <virl> oh, dear. intellasys, should really review it's homepage. 
11:39:55 <virl> how stupid can a company be *grml*
11:41:08 <virl> when it will survive then it's a wonder.
11:42:47 <virl> or hopefully they do their business better than their homepage.
11:43:03 <JasonWoof> I think they should just do what I want
11:43:32 <JasonWoof> madwork: in my recent forths (herkforth and fronds) I store the source in a pre-parsed format
11:44:00 <JasonWoof> and by pre-parsed I meen that compiling/interpreting requries _no_ dictionary lookups
11:45:07 <Quartus_> I'm guessing such pre-parsed stuff wouldn't survive moving to a new build of the kernel, or another platform.
11:46:13 <PoppaVic> ehhehe
11:46:58 <JasonWoof> eh?
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11:47:39 <JasonWoof> the kernel source is stored that way too
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11:48:09 <Quartus_> in terms of sharing source -- is that pre-parsed format transportable ad infinitum? Or would communication to others, or between revisions, require text again?
11:48:21 <JasonWoof> ahh
11:48:28 <JasonWoof> it's not currently transportable
11:48:56 <Quartus_> that's one virtue of source texts.
11:48:58 <JasonWoof> this will be fixed
11:49:00 <JasonWoof> yes
11:49:03 <JasonWoof> a major advantage
11:49:26 <JasonWoof> they can easily be pasted, e-mailed, grepped, etc
11:49:38 <JasonWoof> svn...
11:49:55 <Quartus_> right. I see the problems colorForth people have communicating.
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11:50:16 <madwork> Isn't Forth compilation quick enough as-is?
11:50:57 <Quartus_> that was my thought too. Lookups at compile-time are so fast, I wouldn't think of it as a useful thing to eliminate.
11:52:06 <Quartus_> I know C environments sometimes have pre-compiled headers, for speed.
11:53:04 <Quartus_> usually in those circumstances there are a huge number of .h files. Still, the precompiled headers are a source of confusion and problems; first thing support asks you to do is flush them.
11:53:44 <PoppaVic> hehe
11:58:39 <JasonWoof> speed isn't a big issue
11:59:01 <JasonWoof> although it's something I hope to capitalize on
11:59:05 <Quartus_> to my mind, such a database must be an internal format derived from the original source which must be, for reasons of communication and transportability, in text form.
11:59:07 <PoppaVic> interfacing sure is
11:59:13 <JasonWoof> a bigger benifit is that I never get word-not-found errors
11:59:54 <Quartus_> is that a significant benefit? Do you get those a lot in normal Forth?
12:00:08 <JasonWoof> and that it is very easy to write an editor that follow references and pull up useful relivant data to display for you
12:00:27 <JasonWoof> and you can follow the source as though everything were a link to it's definition (which it is in my case)
12:00:28 <madwork> JasonWoof, I can see that benefit, was thinking the same thing.
12:01:05 <madwork> But not sure that storing pre-parsed source anywhere other than in memory gives much benefit.
12:01:08 <JasonWoof> Quartus_: it's a piece, of something I consider a huge benifit: streamlining the development cycle (I'll explain)
12:01:26 <madwork> JasonWoof, hyperlinked words etc.
12:01:53 <JasonWoof> in normal forth I have a source file open, I make changes, I save, I quit or switch windows over to the interpreter, I run the interpreter, I get an error (quite often a typo), I go back to the editor
12:02:20 <madwork> The edit/compile/debug cycle all over again.
12:02:22 <JasonWoof> in my new system, most typos are cought as I type them (unless I actually type the wrong word)
12:02:42 <JasonWoof> and there's no switching. I type, I hit a key to save, and then run the new code
12:02:46 <madwork> JasonWoof, how well does that work with parsing/defining words?
12:02:47 <JasonWoof> the system compiles it for me first
12:03:13 <madwork> Do you replace existing word definitions, or rebuild the whole dictionary?
12:03:13 <JasonWoof> no parsing words
12:03:34 <JasonWoof> I'm using color coding instead of symbols
12:03:51 <Quartus_> sure. An integrated editor smooths that out, if you find that useful. I code a bit slower than I think, or even type, so I have found I don't mind the cycle.
12:03:54 <JasonWoof> so it's just as terse to have the word you want to define in create-color and follow it by a word that compiles a definition for it
12:04:14 <JasonWoof> here's how you'd do it that way in regular forth:
12:04:42 <JasonWoof> : does:adder [postpone] + ;    : foo [ adder
12:05:13 <JasonWoof> with colored source, the : and [ symbols are gone, so it's just two words long and the meaning is very clear
12:05:29 <PoppaVic> color means dick
12:05:31 <JasonWoof> foo is red, so you know it's defining a word, and adder is yellow to indicate it is executing
12:05:48 <JasonWoof> in traditional forth you'd make adder a defining word so you could do this sort of thing:   adder: foo
12:06:01 <PoppaVic> I despise that color-sighted forth.
12:07:32 <PoppaVic> I keep wondering why colors, therin, are not cases or classes - and presentations are NOT words
12:08:04 <JasonWoof> a lot of the benifits I link to it are possible without pre-parsed source
12:08:16 <JasonWoof> but pre-parsed source makes it much easier to create the dev environment I did
12:08:34 * PoppaVic sighs
12:08:36 <JasonWoof> otoh there are some things where storing source pre-parsed is required afaik
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12:08:42 <JasonWoof> like having the system be able to compile dependancies for you
12:08:54 <JasonWoof> I got very sick of wasting time trying to make it so things got compiled in the right order
12:09:09 <JasonWoof> as herkforth got bigger this became a bigger and bigger time waster for me
12:10:02 <JasonWoof> in my new system you tell it you want to execute something (say "edit") and if it's not compiled yet, it recurses through the source tree compiling all the dependancies that aren't compiled yet
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12:12:29 <JasonWoof> even though I haven't finished the dev environment yet, this has already been very useful
12:13:25 <JasonWoof> I can stick some debugging functions into the kernel, and when I save it automagically compile all the nessesary words (like output and formatting code) into the kernel so it works
12:13:42 <JasonWoof> with herkforth I often felt restricted in this regard
12:14:30 <madwork> It's a cool idea, makes for a nice IDE.
12:14:36 <JasonWoof> yeah :)
12:14:41 <madwork> I have an alternate idea for this, too.
12:14:55 <JasonWoof> I really really like having a key that saves and resets the system _completly_
12:15:37 <madwork> It would remain entirely interactive. So yea, you can type a wrong word, but you'd get your parsing/definition words as well.
12:16:27 <madwork> The default behaviour for creating a word would replace the last existing word, not create a new one.
12:17:07 <madwork> Also, when defining a new word, it would store the source code for it in memory. Then you can save the dictionary at any point.
12:17:40 <madwork> More or less an interactive version of JasonWoof's idea, without the preparsing and syntax checking.
12:18:09 <madwork> akin to the line-numbered BASIC days in terms of development cycle.
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12:30:45 <JasonWoof> you can do what I've done with text
12:30:51 <JasonWoof> except for the dependancy compiling
12:31:34 <JasonWoof> and it would be very tricky to make it so you can jump to the definition of any word
12:31:39 <JasonWoof> (given all the creating words and such)
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12:37:38 <madwork> Yes, you'd have to know more about the context of the word in the interpreter, but my alternate method of using vocabularies makes it reasonably painless.
12:43:29 <docl> source logging has always seemed a good idea to me.
12:57:09 <madwork> source logging = ?
12:57:28 <virl> logging the difference?
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13:04:40 <madwork> docl! 
13:04:54 <madwork> U ANSWER NOW GWAI-LO!
13:05:19 <virl> madwork, want it to know *hrhr*
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13:06:57 <virl> and Raystm2_ where is the parts list?
13:11:20 <docl> sorry, got distracted :)
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13:12:35 <docl> well, if you log everything typed before executing it, you have a copy you can use to regenerate the current system
13:12:52 <madwork> Oh. Yes. Basically what I was describing. Almost.
13:13:36 <docl> although sounds like you had some improvements in mind
13:15:00 <madwork> Yes, but there are also gotchas with my idea.
13:15:50 <madwork> Things like variables and constants source may have to be generated from compiled code, for instance. So, a variable's current value would be what gets saved for its initialization.
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13:16:12 <madwork> And defining words could potentially cause problems. 
13:17:37 <Quiznos> bl00p
13:17:50 <Quiznos> someone ping me please?
13:17:58 <docl> Quiznos: ping
13:18:05 <Quiznos> ty
13:18:16 <madwork> Damn autocomplete.
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13:19:56 <docl> a convo between Quiznos and Quartus looks like a monologue if you don't pay close attention :P
13:21:04 <madwork> Yes, I was complaining about that yesterday.
13:21:23 <madwork> Quiznos should change his name to either "Sandwich" or "DonCherry".
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13:21:32 <Quiznos> docl yea, he did have a one tract mind during that thread 
13:22:34 <Quartus_> a monologue where half the time the spelling is considerably better, at least.
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13:24:02 <madwork> Who is this Quartus_ imposter?
13:24:17 <Quartus_> mobile me.
13:24:20 <madwork> He's not easily confused with Quiznos enough for me.
13:25:12 <Quartus_> Quartus is the name of my business for the last 9 years; I claim jurisdiction. Pressure sandwich-boy to change.
13:25:34 <madwork> I did.
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13:25:46 <Quartus_> good. :)
13:25:47 <madwork> You obviously confused "Quiznos" with "Quartus" above. ;)
13:26:04 <Quartus_> heh
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13:58:29 <Quartus> Imposter gone.
13:59:33 <madwork> Was that Quartus "underscore" or Quartus "underbar?"
14:00:04 <Quartus> Wunderbar.
14:00:55 <madwork> Mmm, peanuty goodness.
14:01:00 <Quartus> Ok, here's a guy who outscores the worst here for incomprehensibility: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.forth/browse_frm/thread/2cd6a747de2bb1e1/feeb2a7c3d63f1c7#feeb2a7c3d63f1c7
14:02:52 <madwork> Heh, uh, WTF.
14:04:04 <Quartus> His profile has 74 messages in comp.lang.forth alone, quite a read..
14:06:46 <madwork> His NewForth idea is intruiging, fast, and with out the inward complex of not of the OpSys ! I garner to him a sandwich of his choice of sauces.
14:07:42 <Quartus> Intriguing? Some new use of the word.
14:08:11 <Quartus> His very first foray into UseNet (trackable to his current id, anyway), was to thoroughly piss-off the HP48 guys.  Here's a good one: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/188df4dd80abcbdb
14:08:56 <madwork> I'm so glad that we can all be searched online, back to the earliest days of stupid usenet posts.
14:10:00 <madwork> Heh. That werty has definitely got a q loose.
14:10:54 <Quartus> Yes, and in the last year he hasn't changed one iota.
14:13:58 <virl> what's the best known name for the inner interpreter of a Forth system?
14:14:56 <madwork> "Inner interpreter," I thought...
14:15:43 <madwork> Unless you mean the address interpreter, for ITC Forths.
14:15:54 <virl> so would this C name for the interpreter in pix a good one? pix_interpreter_inner?
14:16:10 <madwork> Sounds good to me.
14:16:33 <madwork> Alternatively, "inner loop."
14:16:55 <virl> well, I go through the metacompilation way for creating my forth system
14:17:24 <virl> and C is nowadays a relative good choice here.
14:18:15 <Quartus> I call mine EXECUTE.
14:18:40 <madwork> virl, There is no such thing as a FORTH to C or vice versa  cross compiler . 
14:18:41 <madwork>  You are fools !!    FORTH is a solution to C , so no one will cross 
14:18:41 <madwork> compile anything from C to FORTH !!  The very reason you'd use Forth 
14:18:41 <madwork> is for the stupid obtuse of C ,  so how would you learn enough about 
14:18:41 <madwork>  the way your C app works to CROSS ?!!!   Think !!!
14:18:49 <Quartus> Think !!!
14:19:21 <Quartus> You are fools !!
14:19:25 <madwork> EXECUTE is the word for executing XT's though, so isn't that confusing?
14:19:33 <Quartus> No, it's the same animal.
14:19:55 <Quartus> Wait, are you talking about the parse, lookup, and execute?  INTERPRET in that case.
14:20:10 <virl> madwork, what are you yelling and praying?
14:20:21 <Quartus> THINK !!!!
14:20:33 <madwork> virl, it's from Quartus's link, above.
14:20:35 <virl> what should I THINK !!!!
14:20:44 <Quartus> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/188df4dd80abcbdb
14:21:05 <madwork> The very reason you'd use Forth is for the stupid obtuse of C , so how would you learn enough about the way your C app works to CROSS ?!!!
14:21:27 <Quartus> The very reason you'd use Forth is for the stupid obtuse of C .
14:21:54 * virl looks up what 'obtuse' means
14:21:58 <Quartus> No one will cross compile anything from C to FORTH !!  TOGETHER WE WILL RULE THE WOOOOOOOORLD!
14:22:00 <Quartus> (last part mine)
14:22:44 <madwork> Quartus, FORTH is a solution to C , so no one will cross compile anything from C to FORTH !! Sandwich shop !!!
14:22:47 <virl> 'aha' well, where are those fancy pants WOOOOOOOORLD rulers?
14:22:53 <Quartus> Onion bun!
14:22:56 <Quartus> !!
14:22:57 <madwork> virl, THINK !!!
14:23:06 <madwork> Ugh, I hate onions.
14:23:07 <Quartus> You are FOOLS !!!
14:23:09 <madwork> Even on buns.
14:24:02 <virl> puh, I think this guy has a big brainfart. perhaps as a kid someone opened his skull and eh.. did his business there ...
14:24:15 <madwork> you are teh FOOLS !!!storestorestore
14:24:18 <Quartus> He's only about twice as bad as the worst zealots we get in here.
14:24:50 <k4jcw> Hey, don't talk about me like th... oh.
14:24:52 * virl looks up zealots
14:25:07 * juri_ 's picture is next to the definition.
14:25:22 <Quartus> juri_, you need to use more !!!!.
14:25:25 <virl> ah.. zealots, stupid bastards with bombs
14:25:30 <madwork> juri_, THINK !!!!
14:25:38 <Quartus> What, do you have the Fox News Network dictionary?
14:25:47 <madwork> Jeff Fox News Network?
14:25:49 <juri_> quartus: i'm not a RAVING ZEALOT, only a zealot. i have my cause. ;)
14:26:12 <Quartus> Ah. Ok, in that case your use of only one ! is acceptable.
14:26:39 <Quartus> But if you do become raving, comply with the requirement, or I shall be forced to go to the larder and unseal a tin of whoop-ass.
14:26:49 <virl> using more exclamation points doesn't show intelligence
14:27:18 <madwork> WHAT U SAY !!!!!
14:27:20 <juri_> if you're interested, i am going to be porting some of my smaller programs to gforth. for the practice. for instance, the first step of GNU GIFT's image recognition system.
14:27:35 <Quartus> I am interested, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
14:27:40 <juri_> expect it to be nasty. ;)
14:27:54 <virl> ui, nasty.. I like that word
14:27:58 <Quartus> Then it'll have to call you Miss Jackson.
14:28:32 <Quartus> If you're interested in feedback, let us know.
14:29:08 <juri_> i will be. my forth will be hideous, and i'll probably have to make gforth smarter.
14:29:13 <Quartus> I was just looking over the available Forth->C translators.
14:29:24 <Quartus> You know gforth can access external libs.
14:29:58 <juri_> yes, but automatic vectorization, and more specifically, automatic window vectorization is something GCC hasnt been taught yet.
14:30:09 <virl> bah, I never liked it when a language doesn't compile directly to something binary
14:30:16 <Quartus> Oh I see.  "Making gforth smarter" we'd generally call "writing a Forth application". :)
14:30:37 <juri_> yes, i'm making up words. you'd understand if you tried to read my sse2 optimized code.
14:30:48 <virl> hmm, gforth. G for the G point
14:30:58 <Quartus> heh. No, I mean I took what you said to mean you'd need to rebuild gforth with extra innards.
14:31:12 <juri_> i think i might. ;P
14:31:28 <Quartus> To add vectorization?  I wouldn't think so.  But see how it goes.
14:32:04 <juri_> is gforth smart enough to vectorize a fixed for loop?
14:32:20 <Quartus> It has been said that the process of writing a Forth application is to write a language, a set of words that describes and is specific to your problem domain, and then write your application in that.
14:32:25 <juri_> by vectorize, i mean use all sse2 registers and instructions, for the contents.
14:32:36 <Quartus> juri_, gforth doesn't write native code at all.
14:32:39 <virl> I ask myself really how it's possible to code in gforth anything useful
14:32:52 <juri_> quartus: there may be a performance issue there. ;)
14:33:04 <Quartus> Indeed.  You may have to use the assembler to optimize selected parts.
14:33:15 <juri_> i dont have to, in C. ;)
14:33:55 <Quartus> Nor would likely have to using a Forth that generates optimized native code.
14:34:23 <juri_> what about i440's forth engine? does it do dynamic recompilation?
14:34:37 <Quartus> I have yet to encounter a Forth that does.
14:34:50 <Quartus> C doesn't do dynamic recompilation either, though.
14:35:06 <juri_> no, but i've seen the innards of C applications which do.
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14:35:33 <Quartus> But it's not a feature of C, any more than it's a feature of Forth. 
14:35:40 <juri_> true that.
14:36:31 <Quartus> If I were coding that close to the metal with that kind of requirement for performance, I'd be working at the assembler/machine-code level.  What language the wrapper code was in would be relatively unimportant.
14:37:02 <juri_> i suppose you could say i've been writing to the compiler, to force the assembly to be something reasonable.
14:37:35 <juri_> now you see why i'm so hesitant to learn forth. its interpreted, but sometimes its not, and they use the word 'compile' where i'd use 'macro' a lot. ;)
14:37:47 <Quartus> If you're restricting yourself to gforth, you should understand that by itself it does not write native code.  There is an assembler available, and perhaps something interesting could come of that, but it'll be an uphill climb to achieve that while learning Forth at the same time.
14:38:25 <Quartus> I understand your confusion, but I don't know why it would make you hesitant.  At any rate, in Forth, as elsewhere, 'compile' means to turn readable source into a machine executable.
14:38:28 <juri_> well, i'll do a 'pure gforth' port to begin with, just to have something to be criticized. i can come up with justifications to not learn forth all day. ;)
14:38:33 <Quartus> That executable may take many forms, depending on the Forth.
14:38:53 <Quartus> Compilation in Forth may sometimes be a macro expansion, but that's not the common case at all.
14:40:50 <Quartus> Well, to fine-tune that, compilation in Forth may sometimes involve a macro expansion, or inlining.  Again, not the common case. 
14:41:49 <Quartus> There's a gforth-fast executable as well, by the way, that runs faster than the straight-up gforth.
14:42:21 <juri_> i noticed that.
14:42:36 <juri_> i'll work on performance, once i get functionality. functionality first. ;)
14:43:01 <Quartus> I believe (without checking the docs) that it isn't compiled to use stack frames or something similar, for speed, but thus can't backtrace as readily.  There's notes about it.
14:43:58 <Quartus> Ok.  Bear in mind that gforth is not built to be the fastest possible Forth compiler for any given platform.  It's built to be portable across platforms.
14:44:31 <juri_> i'll save criticizing the speed for after the port. ;)
14:45:13 <juri_> (tho, i am going to be comparing and contrasting to an sse2 optimized C application, written to the compiler. ;)
14:45:15 <Quartus> I'm not trying to apologize for gforth -- just letting you know the lay of the land, as it were.
14:45:25 <juri_> accepted.
14:47:06 <Quartus> I expect you'll see a factor of 2 or worse slowdown from most Forth systems as compared to an optimized C application, written with equal skill.  That number may fall to approaching C's speed in the case of a heavily optimizing system, like MPE's VFX Forth.
14:49:37 <virl> but on the other hand other languages are slower
14:49:51 <Quartus> General practice in Forth is to optimize only the bottlenecks, commonly by re-writing those bottlenecks in assembler.
14:50:08 <virl> it's probably the fastest interpreted/compiled language around
14:50:33 <docl> Quartus: or raw machine codes :)
14:50:40 <Quartus> docl, same thing, only with more masochism.
14:51:03 <Quartus> Yes, even MPE's VFX Forth isn't slow to compile.
14:52:36 <Quartus> One benefit of Forth is that the assembler is also written in Forth, and you can easily intermix words written in either Forth or assembler, seamlessly.  In contrast, if you were to, picking a random example, write a Perl app and need to optimize a routine, you'd have to write the routine in another language and call it from Perl.
14:54:47 <madgarden> http://www.thesurrealist.co.uk/trivia.pl?subject=Forth&gender=n
14:55:44 <virl> and the nice thing also, you could also dump the compiled words to a file and voila you have a binary which could come very very close to C 
14:56:48 <madgarden> The risk of being struck by Forth is one occurence every 9,300 years.
14:59:31 <Quartus> Antarctica is the only continent without madgarden.
15:00:00 <madgarden> Michelangelo finished his great statue of Quartus in 1504, after eighteen months work!
15:00:52 <Quartus> PoppaVic is the world's largest rodent.
15:01:04 <Quartus> About 100 people choke to death on PoppaVic each year.
15:01:20 <Quartus> Oranges, lemons, watermelons, pineapples and PoppaVic are all berries!
15:02:41 <Quartus> It takes a lobster approximately 7 years to grow to be Quiznos.
15:02:58 <Quartus> To check whether virl is safe to eat, drop him in a bowl of water; rotten virl will sink, and fresh virl will float.
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15:05:55 <JasonWoof> lol
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16:22:59 <docl> so... an assembler is a set of names attached to numeric values. that could be a set of forth constants
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16:48:57 <JasonWoof> docl: eh?
16:49:15 <JasonWoof> an assembler translates a text file into machine code
16:52:05 <docl> it couldn't be interactive?
16:52:27 <JasonWoof> that would be an interpreter
16:52:51 <JasonWoof> assemblers are generally very low level
16:52:56 <JasonWoof> except in the case of x86 of course
16:54:31 <docl> if you inline opcodes in forth, does that make it an interactive assembler?
17:02:29 <virl> docl, I think it makes it to that
17:03:33 <docl> it's an intembler :)
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18:34:44 <madgarden> All shrimp are born as JasonWoof, but gradually mature into females
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19:43:01 <Quartus> werty's got about six new ones today. He's a busy fellow.
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19:50:25 <madgarden> Who let HIS dog out?
19:51:05 <Quartus> Do you know the origin of that phrase?
19:51:38 <madgarden> In Japan it is considered rude to talk with werty in your mouth.
19:52:10 <madgarden> Er... no. Who originated it? Who? Who who who?
19:53:14 <madgarden> werty reminds me a little of the MindForth guy.
19:53:44 <Quartus> The MindForth guy is nuts, but he isn't this incoherent.
19:54:07 <Quartus> "Who let the dogs out" is slang that means "Who brought the ugly girls to the party".  Charmingly misogynistic.
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20:01:51 <madgarden> Heh.
20:02:09 <madgarden> So, why do the crazy ones have to end up obsessing over Forth? :/
20:02:37 <madgarden> It gives us mildly unbalanced Forthers a bad name.
20:03:44 <Quartus> I assume there are crazies in every group.
20:04:59 <madgarden> Yea, but we're already crazy by default, dammit! So when *we* think a guy is nutso, he's really flown the coop.
20:05:19 <madgarden> Anyway, time for nighty-night.
20:05:55 <Quartus> See ya!
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20:41:36 <docl> OpSys will be free . M$ is dead along with Linux .   S/W will be done by hobbyists , not paid programmers ...
20:42:53 <docl> the guy sure knows how to punctuate . 
20:48:25 <Quartus> THINK !!!
20:48:29 <Quartus> You are all FOOLS !!
20:48:31 <Quartus> :)
20:49:20 <docl> these are so fun to read! :)
20:49:37 <docl>  So i must define C based Forths as 
20:49:40 <docl>     LUDDITE ( General Ned Ludd , trade unionist )
20:49:52 <Quartus> I can't figure out what colour the sky is in his world.  From bits & pieces of his insane spew, it appears he believes the ARM cpu will displace everything else, and that locals are preferable to stacks.
20:50:48 <Quartus> Apparently he also believes the ANS Standard is fantastically complex.
20:51:05 <docl> also:  Im the worlds top sys prog , free advice ....
20:51:11 <Quartus> And as you point out, he thinks C is the root of a considerable amount of evil.
20:53:28 <Quartus> Maybe 'sys prog' means 'systematic prognosticator' in this case. :)
20:54:17 <docl> there ya go :)
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20:54:38 <docl> that punctuations style , rocks !
20:56:35 <docl> in the future , we will no longer be needing English , at all . it will all be Forth !
21:00:24 <docl> so, without stacks how would a forth operate?
21:30:00 <Quartus> It wouldn't.
21:31:24 <docl> maybe you could get away with a single-element stack...
21:31:47 <Quartus> Eh?
21:34:01 <docl> not really. but with prefixes you could maybe make it look like there was only one element at a time.
21:34:23 <Quartus> Why?
21:34:28 <docl> : foo variable: bar @bar . ;
21:34:39 <docl> for the heck of it, of course
21:36:01 <docl> then you'd have to deal with arithmetic and stuff like @bar +baz or some such
21:37:02 <docl> anything that moves complexity to a less obtrusive location can be an advantage
21:37:41 <Quartus> And how would this do that?
21:37:57 <docl> no more stack juggling
21:38:10 <Quartus> In exchange for no stack.  Somewhat less than a win.
21:38:41 <docl> maybe :/
21:38:54 <Quartus> I'm not in any doubt about it.
21:39:08 <docl> you could have the stack and just hardly ever use it
21:39:44 <Quartus> You could strap wheels to the bottom and call it a pushcart.
21:40:18 <docl> now yer getting the idea :P
21:43:46 <docl> what would be the real disadvantages though? efficiency? flexibility? would it even work?
21:44:22 <Quartus> If you have need of a pushcart, there are better ones available.
21:48:08 <docl> I Shall Embed Forth into a PushCart and it Shall roll 90% more Efficient !
21:50:54 * JasonWoof would preffer a shaggin' waggin
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21:57:54 <ayrnieu> woops, sorry.
21:58:54 * ayrnieu sighs
21:59:17 <docl> better
22:01:05 <ayrnieu> using a Forth IRC client, but it's still a bit messy.
22:01:49 <docl> cool
22:01:58 * docl using irssi
22:03:52 <docl> ok, just hacked my retroforth copy to allow +foo and -foo prefixes
22:08:18 <docl> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=68  + and -, now works in defines
22:08:47 <docl> whups meant to paste that in #retro
22:10:38 <ayrnieu> you didn't alow them before?  Or do you mean that they're now special?
22:11:53 <docl> they're now prefix-able
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22:12:24 <docl> sorry, didn't notice you just now joined :)
22:13:22 <docl> now you can do +foo ans it adds the top element to the current value of the variable
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22:37:13 <JasonWoof> what's the difference between meta and alt?
22:38:00 <ayrnieu> completely different keys, but modern PC keyboard modifier-scarcity helps to conflate them.  Look at xmodmap
22:38:45 <JasonWoof> well, my keyboard has three modifier keys on the left in the bottom row: control, option(alt) and apple
22:39:12 <JasonWoof> before my option key was sending ALT, but now it's sending META
22:45:57 <Quartus> I never meta key I didn't like.
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