00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.25
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04:44:09 <Quiznos> vic.
04:45:32 <PoppaVic> Hi
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05:52:58 <PoppaVic> whee.. the dlopen installer, and the plug list and nodes are all workin' properly.
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06:28:56 <snowrichard> hello
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06:29:36 <PoppaVic> howdy
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07:38:08 <madwork> Yo! All tha Forth people in tha hizouse say DUP! Aww yeaaa.
07:39:56 <PoppaVic> Fortunately, I despise rap-crap and hip-hop almost as much as country.
07:40:56 <PoppaVic> madwork: it's a lovely thing when yer code works, (even if trivial), with dlopen and abstracted lists/looks, etc ;-)
07:41:04 * juri_ says nothing.
07:41:05 <PoppaVic> looks/lookups
07:42:07 <madwork> Yes, working code is lovely.
07:43:19 <PoppaVic> well, it proves I can load and list-nodes of plugins, as well as prove they can and do run installers. This is sorta' nice.
07:43:59 <PoppaVic> Next, I need to deal with Klass-registrations and then opcodes/operations.
07:46:33 <madwork> PoppaVic, I hate rap too. ;)
07:47:29 <PoppaVic> Not only does it suggest a lot of stupid concepts, it encourages a lunatic and twisted view - and it ain't MUSIC
07:48:10 <PoppaVic> I'd rather listen to classical, or folk, or Rock. Although, even then - the latter is sorta' limited.
07:48:58 <madwork> I like classical, especially the baroque era. I've raised my kid up on it, and he's such an awesome little dude. :) Doesn't want to bust no caps in anybody's ass.
07:49:44 <madwork> I also like some classic rock, and experimental electronic stuff (not the dancy techno crap though).
07:50:38 <PoppaVic> I can understand terminations, hunting and revenge - as well as classical and rock.. I have zero tolerance for "momma' just died and my horse got out of prison" or "shoot a cop, I'm bad!"
07:50:57 <PoppaVic> madwork: early Moog stuff?
07:51:42 <PoppaVic> "A well-tempered synthesizer" for example?
07:53:55 <madwork> Yea, I like that old synth stuff, Jarre, etc. but also current stuff. There's a lot of free experimental music that I get from the net.
07:56:40 <PoppaVic> I either want to relax, (and that can even mean Brazil-66 or the Tiauana Brass or Bach), or I want to nurse some anger (certain AC/DC, etc), or I listen quietly to The Doors, Queen, Tull, or even Floyd.
07:57:18 <PoppaVic> I just can't tolerate "music" that apparently has no meaning and just plays crap over and over.
07:57:57 <PoppaVic> At least SOME of the Rock group I mentioned had degrees in music, and it was GOLD, and/or they could write poetry.
07:58:52 <PoppaVic> Personally, I think hip-hop/house/rap-crap is a lot like saying: "I can't play, read or sing - but I can-does speak eubonics!"
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08:22:06 <madwork> PoppaVic, a lot of the rap stuff is just about machismo, presenting the bling and trying to get laid while scaring off the competition.
08:22:25 <madwork> What do those guys do when they grow up, heh?
08:22:36 <madwork> Do you see any middle aged rapper mac daddies? :)
08:23:43 <PoppaVic> madwork: I think they pimp, sell dope or go broke, myself.
08:24:04 <madwork> Ahh well, not my thing anyway.
08:24:09 <PoppaVic> indeed
08:24:53 <PoppaVic> I live for pre-80's rock, and classical or "pop" (if you can call instrumentals that)
08:25:20 <PoppaVic> A few exceptions, but not as much as I prefer the earlier stuff
08:25:34 * madwork is mostly a Rush guy for rock.
08:26:10 <PoppaVic> Tush is ok, several albums here - 2112 was really a faster, HARDER Doors
08:26:18 <PoppaVic> Rush, sorry
08:26:36 <PoppaVic> Poetry and music and mood.
08:28:19 <juri_> i moved away from american music, other than the occasional techno album. most my music is german techno, german rock, or anime soundtracks.
08:29:43 <madwork> I also like video game music and remixes, heh.
08:29:46 <madwork> Especially C64.
08:30:23 <juri_> o/~ we are here to protect you.. pushing will protect you.. pushing will protect you from the terible secret of space.. o/~
08:30:33 <PoppaVic> the c64 had a nice synth - the mac powerbooks also seem decent
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09:00:23 <Quiznos> back.
09:19:15 <juri_> front.
09:19:43 <segher> side?
09:30:05 <madwork> top.
09:32:02 <Quiznos> wanna laf?
09:32:42 <madwork> Quiznos, why are you named after a sandwich?
09:33:19 <Quiznos> Fraser Crane and 3 people are in his car and there's engine trouble; he says to his brother "Niles, i'll pop the hood and we'll go look." Niles says "that won't void warranty will it?" 
09:33:21 <Quiznos> lol
09:33:56 <madwork> heh
09:34:05 <Quiznos> madwork i'm not food. i'm about questions -- i do my real loitering in ##Linux
09:35:21 <Quiznos> but in the spirit of tv Americana
09:35:34 <Quiznos> madwork NO FOOD, ONE YEAR!!!
09:35:36 <Quiznos> heh
09:35:48 <madwork> http://couponsalacarte.com/orlando/coupons/artwork/quiznoart.jpg
09:36:04 <Quiznos> i dont even eat there
09:36:07 <Quiznos> nor the other place
09:47:04 <Quartus> There is absolutely nobody who will think "Quiznos" has anything to do with questions. 
09:47:33 <Quiznos> that's why people ask the question.
09:47:37 <Quartus> They'll think you work at a sandwich store.
09:47:45 <Quiznos> not after i answer
09:47:51 <Quartus> I just saw you answer the question, I still think you work at a sandwich store.
09:47:57 <Quiznos> i dont
09:48:05 <Quiznos> and i dont eat there or the other place ieither
09:48:05 <madwork> So do I.
09:48:36 <Quartus> It's the better of the two choices.  The other choice is that you think having the name of a sandwich as your handle is somehow clever and thought-provoking.
09:48:49 <Quiznos> wow
09:48:56 <Quiznos> lighten up, just a wee bit? :)
09:49:01 <Quiznos> heh
09:49:02 <Quartus> Make me a sandwich.
09:49:05 <madwork> Hahah
09:49:07 <PoppaVic> sadly, Quartus is right.
09:49:15 <madwork> Not only that...
09:49:26 <madwork> But when Quartus and Quiznos are chatting, I can never tell them apart.
09:49:27 <Quartus> Charitably, I used to assume you owned a Quiznos franchise.  Now even that illusion is gone.
09:49:58 <madwork> Quartus: Oh yea?
09:49:58 <madwork> Quiznos: yea!
09:49:58 <madwork> Quartus: Yea?
09:49:58 <madwork> Quiznos: no!
09:49:59 <Quiznos> that is kind of you but your azoomshun was just that.
09:50:05 <Quiznos> heh
09:50:09 <madwork> That just hurts my eyes.
09:50:10 <PoppaVic> madwork: I can't comment too much - I got nuked in the wiki, and refuse to open a door to nukes in #forth ;-)
09:50:16 <Quiznos> it's easier to ask a question.
09:50:35 <madwork> What wiki?
09:50:44 <PoppaVic> madwork: don't ask
09:50:57 <madwork> ...
09:50:58 <Quiznos> what did you write on the wiki?
09:50:58 <madwork> What wiki?
09:50:59 <madwork> ;)
09:51:00 <PoppaVic> <- is a racist bastard mofo
09:51:04 <Quiznos> come on, confess :)
09:51:08 <Quiznos> lolol
09:51:21 <Quiznos> mayhaps a dumbass too? :)
09:51:23 <madwork> Forthfreak, or Herk's wiki?
09:51:23 <Quiznos> lol
09:51:54 <PoppaVic> I had some posts in Quartus wiki, commented in here a few times, and got nuked: I can live w/o the controversy
09:51:58 <Quiznos> Vic, that's really funi
09:52:16 <Quiznos> msg me what you wrote? please?
09:52:25 <Quiznos> i need a belly laf
09:52:36 <Quiznos> this is a medical emergency
09:52:38 <Quiznos> gime
09:52:40 <Quiznos> heh
09:53:02 <Quiznos> hey, you know how most lighters are "adult-proof"?
09:53:39 <Quiznos> well, i finally found a place that sells "adult-thumb-friendly" lighters for a 25 cents
09:53:44 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: no, funny is that I defended a deceased grandfather and his behavior and comments, and became a racist, and verbotne. <shrug> I can barely make-way with forthers, lispers and c'ers/
09:53:56 <Quiznos> ok
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09:54:43 <PoppaVic> Ma' bought me some sorta' battery-powered nudie-lighter using butane, I still use it on the porch, (near her) ;-)
09:55:15 <Quiznos> heh
09:55:32 <Quiznos> that's good but i feel jipped out of my impending belly-laf
09:55:34 <Quiznos> lol
09:55:38 <PoppaVic> She's happy we use her purchase, I aim to please
09:55:46 <Quiznos> heh
09:58:37 <PoppaVic> In the last decade, we've lost her father, her husband, and at least one sib is lurking like a vampire for her to croak: yeah. I tend to get a trifle defensive ABOUT her and a trifle irksome TO her.
09:59:02 <Quiznos> so your the irker?
09:59:07 <Quiznos> you're?
09:59:18 <PoppaVic> this is the sorta' 'intra-personal" shit that makes me homicidal.
09:59:26 <Quiznos> lol
09:59:38 <Quiznos> now tell us how you really feel. :)~
10:00:06 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: nah, I got a brother - #2 son, that feels he somehow should be replacing Dad and all of us are out to screw him.
10:00:28 <Quiznos> a few days ago a regular of ##Linux came in all bitchy and stuff about a bad client; he and i chatted and at the end he said
10:00:43 <Quiznos> "thanks for the ##linux therapy that I can charge her for."
10:00:44 <Quiznos> lol
10:00:49 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: indeed, that's why I prefer not to discuss this shit with folks: it's all too mundane, painful and plain-stupid.
10:01:23 <Quiznos> hey, it hapens to all of us and chatting with a non-interested 3rd-paty can help :)
10:01:29 <Quiznos> paty/party
10:01:53 <PoppaVic> I know, but you now understand some of the background/abi and arguments.
10:01:58 * PoppaVic sighs
10:02:06 <Quiznos> sure
10:02:15 <Quiznos> it's called "baggabe"
10:02:19 <Quiznos> and "garbaj"
10:02:24 <Quiznos> and we all have it
10:02:25 <Quiznos> lol
10:02:30 <madwork> Can we get back to the good ol' SWAP DROP DUP now? :)
10:02:49 <Quiznos> so, i think i figered out how to code the unexec()
10:02:53 <Quiznos> for eforthl
10:02:55 <PoppaVic> I have no desire to wax #2 son and make him "disappear", but goddamnit... He seems to think we are all out to rape Ma' and screw _him_
10:03:11 <PoppaVic> madwork: lord, I hope so.
10:03:18 <Quiznos> well, tell him simply, "we love her, now quit your belly-aching"
10:03:23 <Quiznos> lol
10:03:41 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: that'd be sensible - it doesn't apply.
10:04:03 <Quiznos> k
10:04:12 <Quiznos> ph34r sux too
10:04:15 <Quiznos> his
10:04:22 <Quiznos> makes ppl irrational
10:05:02 <PoppaVic> #2 is usually of the opinion that EVERYONE "owes him money" - and the reasons and such all vary. ALL I can say is: he must be a damn-fool to loan that cash out.
10:05:17 <Quiznos> hmm yea
10:05:29 <PoppaVic> madwork: still working on Klass and Instance ;-)
10:05:45 * madwork is wrestling with .NET. :9
10:05:47 <madwork> :(
10:05:50 <Quiznos> madwork did you see my alt-topic comment to you?
10:05:51 <PoppaVic> ewwww
10:05:54 <Quiznos> heh
10:06:05 <madwork> I know. :'(
10:06:22 <virl> madgarden, you poor
10:06:37 <virl> why the hell you must using .net?
10:06:41 <madwork> Work.
10:06:54 <PoppaVic> It's not pretty, but everytime I hear lispers bray about lisp I keep hugging forths and c -)
10:07:10 <madwork> .NET, XML, SOAP via gSOAP... just kill me now. The bloat... oh, the bloat. :'(
10:07:21 <PoppaVic> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww
10:08:18 <PoppaVic> madwork: keep notes about how you would parse/interpret it immediate and compile.
10:08:49 <virl> ouch, SOAP
10:09:01 <PoppaVic> anyway, I needs-must run off to clean and cook - stay well, folks.
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10:09:22 <virl> and what's gSOAP?
10:11:21 <virl> madwork, which taste of .net do you use? C#?
10:11:22 <madwork> gSOAP is a tool for generating C/C++/Java SOAP interfaces.
10:11:29 <madwork> virl, C++.
10:11:31 <madwork> And C.
10:11:41 <madwork> I prefer C, when I have the choice.
10:11:48 <virl> ah.. someone who has a brain
10:12:01 <virl> :-)
10:13:29 <madwork> Heh.
10:13:39 <virl> the C# is ugly isn't it?
10:13:50 <virl> +stuf
10:13:52 <virl> +stuff
10:14:00 <madwork> Yea, I find it funny how the mathy geniuses tend to love the extra complication of all these nested layers of crap.
10:14:30 <madwork> I haven't used C#, luckily.
10:15:09 <virl> oh, the OOP hell nowadays
10:17:06 <madwork> Yes.
10:17:15 <madwork> I can do OO just fine in C.
10:17:28 <madwork> But screw all the restrictions of C++ and its ilk.
10:17:28 <virl> it's used with no brain
10:21:43 <virl> the bad thing is, that it's used everywhere and that it's used shortsighted
10:33:41 <madwork> I tend to disagree with the strict philosophies of OOP, and opt for a more OBP approach.
10:34:04 <virl> Object B? Programming?
10:34:31 <virl> B=?
10:34:39 <virl> Binary?
10:34:47 <madwork> Object Based Programming. It's just OO without all the restriction, basically. :) 
10:35:04 <virl> ah...
10:35:25 <virl> well, right
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10:44:38 <madwork> virl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Object-based_model
10:44:44 <madwork> IMO, less restrictions are better.
10:46:43 <virl> do you mean the object-based-model?
10:48:04 <madwork> "An object-based language is a language that has most of the properties of an object-oriented language, but may lack some. For example Visual Basic lacks inheritance, while a Prototype-based programming language relies on prototypes instead of classes to create objects."
10:49:01 <virl> madwork, what are for you objects?
10:49:39 <virl> because I define 'objects' even structures, functions, ints, or exactly any logically unit.
10:49:55 <virl> so, for me are also words in forths objects
10:50:56 <madwork> virl, I'm pretty lax with the definitions too, yes. 
10:51:10 <virl> :-)
10:51:50 <madwork> This is why I don't dig OOP, because they seem to be very anal and specific about every last detail. If you deviate... BAM! That's not OOP! Henceforth, you are to be shunned!
10:54:18 <virl> and when you take a closer look on todays 'OOP' you see that's simply the way simula solved it, it's not for example smalltalk OOP
10:55:23 <juri_> i still dont buy OOP. i'm a C programmer to the bone. ;)
10:55:27 <virl> and OOP even changes from Python, C++ and co and ruby. so you have each time a new surrounding system, which has the same name 'OOP'. confusing
10:56:12 <madwork> I much prefer prototyped OO to anything else.
10:56:28 <virl> so, you like =?
10:56:33 <virl> classes?
10:56:49 <madwork> No, no classes.
10:56:51 <madwork> Only objects.
10:57:02 <virl> so like the C structs?
10:57:14 <madwork> C structs are more like classes.
10:57:18 <madwork> Think tables.
10:57:42 <virl> think tables, hmm, so C arrays?
10:59:48 <madwork> Hash tables, or associative arrays, yes.
11:02:01 <virl> aha, ok? why hash tables? I mean they represent more a link, because you put into them a key and then you get it's content
11:10:35 <madwork> You can also put function pointers into hash tables. :)
11:10:59 <madwork> So then, you construct an object as a table of functions and data.
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11:11:44 <madwork> Then, if you want to "derive" from it, you just clone it and make changes to it.
11:17:04 <virl> ok, so you define an object as a hash table
11:17:29 <madwork> It doesn't have to be a hash table, but it's a common way to do it.
11:17:57 <madwork> The main point is that you make an object, and then make a copy of it and change the copy to extend the object.
11:18:05 <madwork> And this is dynamic.
11:18:20 <virl> ok
11:20:14 <madwork> It also can allow things like "duck typing."
11:36:05 <Quartus> Ducks don't type well.
11:37:56 <madwork> Quack for yourself!
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11:54:37 <tathi> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1998-October/017019.html
11:55:34 <tathi> oops, that's not the one I thought it was
11:57:47 <madwork> And for that... YOU DIE!
11:58:24 <tathi> well, it is the message where Alan Kay says he's sorry he coined the term "objects" because it gets people focused on the wrong thing
11:58:37 <tathi> and that it's really all about "messaging"
11:58:40 <madwork> Ahh.
11:59:01 <madwork> I think "messaging" is just as misleading as objects, to be honest. ;)
11:59:03 <madwork> But hey.
11:59:10 <tathi> I just think that he put it better somewhere else
11:59:41 <tathi> really?
12:00:32 <tathi> yeah, I suppose so, especially with multiple dispatch
12:00:33 <madwork> Since I think in terms of functions and data... yes.
12:00:48 <madwork> I have some stuff. I want to change the stuff. I call a function on the stuff to change it. Stuff changed.
12:01:39 <virl> messaging, you don't know, objects you don't know. but you know what a word is in forth.
12:01:49 <virl> could we say that forth is better defined than the rest?
12:02:22 <madwork> Of course. Forth is the end-all-be-all of EVERYTHING! Silly question, tathi.
12:02:26 <madwork> ;)
12:02:35 <tathi> heh.
12:02:39 <madwork> Er, virl.
12:02:47 <virl> madwork, ?
12:02:48 <madwork> How the hell I got you two mixed up, I dunno.
12:03:15 <virl> before I can answer I need to know what the hell 'mixed up' means
12:03:42 <docl> switched around in one's head, confused
12:03:46 <madwork> I confused you two.
12:04:10 <virl> you confused me? well, if so, then I don't know.
12:04:10 <tathi> I think in your terms, what Kay really means by "messaging" is that when you call a function by name, the computation that is actually performed is depends on the type of stuff that you're trying to change.
12:04:21 <madwork> I went to type virl, but hit "tathi" by accident. The letters are like all right next to each other. ;)
12:05:05 <virl> madwork, well, must be the american keyboard layout 
12:05:47 <madwork> :)
12:06:08 <virl> end-all-be-all?
12:06:09 <madwork> tathi, sounds like operator overloading.
12:07:19 <madwork> virl, sorry, it's another non-portable English phrase. "End-all-be-all" just means that it's the best, ever, anywhere! The only thing you could ever need.
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12:08:12 <tathi> see?  portability is a myth! :)
12:08:29 <Quartus_> wireless again.
12:08:45 <Quartus_> heh
12:09:42 <segher> tathi: no, portability just means that you have to severely restrict yourself in your expressiveness
12:10:17 <tathi> yah
12:10:52 <tathi> er...well...sometimes it's not all *that* restrictive
12:15:22 <Quartus_> true. The Standard covers a lot of ground, language-wise.
12:16:21 <virl> madwork, heh, forth isn't everything. but it seems better defined than some other languages.
12:16:59 <virl> highlevel languages tend to be not good defined but lowlevel ones tend to be
12:17:45 <segher> ans forth is very much non-restrictive, yeah
12:18:12 <segher> ...which is why some people like it, instead of bitching about it
12:19:09 <Quartus_> I'm impressed by it. I followed it from the first available BASIS documents. They did a hell of a good job.
12:20:15 <virl> oh, a pain.
12:20:17 <tathi> I tend to want it to be things that it's not, but I have to agree that they did a good job.
12:20:24 <Quartus_> When you consider how intrenched, recalcitrant, and irascible many of the members were, it's doubly impressive.
12:20:41 <tathi> heh.  I can imagine.
12:21:31 <Quartus_> Moore came to an early meeting, and stormed out. Came back next time, apologized, and then gave a talk that showed he completely misunderstood what a Standard is for.
12:21:44 <Quartus_> that's a rocky start. 
12:21:50 <segher> heh wow
12:22:34 <Quartus_> I'm not sure he understands to this day what a standard is for, or why it's valuable.
12:23:30 <virl> where is that mentioned? (me want's to read that too)
12:24:16 <Quartus_> He stormed out during a really pointless discussion over whether MOVE should be mandated to move data in blocks of a certain size, which would have annoyed me too, mind you. :)
12:24:41 <Quartus_> virl, I'm not at home so I don't have the reference. Think Taygeta has it.
12:25:41 <virl> well, how old is the standard now?
12:25:58 <Quartus_> finalized in 94.
12:25:59 <Quiznos> woot Taygeta!
12:26:08 * Quiznos dances the dance of Taygetas
12:26:14 <Quiznos> hopa
12:26:31 <Quartus_> don't you have sandwiches to make?
12:26:36 <Quiznos> nop
12:26:43 <Quiznos> they makes demselvs
12:27:17 <virl> puh, so it's 12 years old. if that's not a time span of redoing things, then I don't know.
12:27:59 <Quiznos> as an exercise in "prowess" (yea right) i shall now attempt to translate usr/include/a.out.h to forth.
12:27:59 <Quartus_> you're welcome to reform the committee if you wish. It costs money, so start seeking a sponsor.
12:28:12 <virl> personally I think there two types of Forth systems out there: old systems and new ones
12:28:15 <Quiznos> 6 cells aout-struct <cr>
12:28:19 <Quiznos> woot finished
12:28:20 <Quiznos> lol
12:28:27 <Quiznos> 8 cells
12:28:37 <Quiznos> that was v0.0.1
12:28:50 <Quiznos> the -6 +8 makes it 0.0.2
12:28:52 <Quiznos> :)
12:29:03 <virl> I'm not intending to reform this committee or to support what they produced.
12:29:12 <Quiznos> can i join?
12:29:28 <Quartus_> then why grouse about it being time for review?
12:29:31 <juri_> i wanna join. i've never written a line of forth. ;P
12:29:36 <Quiznos> get in line!
12:29:45 <madwork> Quiznos, I'll have an assorted submarine sandwich on honey-oat, with lettuce, tomato, mayonnaise, and hot peppers.
12:29:49 <Quiznos> write this back (no moising around)
12:29:53 <Quiznos> : 1+ 1  + ;
12:29:55 <Quiznos> WRITE THAT
12:29:57 <virl> Quartus_, not a review, a big cut, between old shit and new good design.
12:30:05 <juri_> uhm, whats it *mean*? ;P
12:30:08 <Quiznos> madwork you dont want lettuce
12:30:21 <Quiznos> no nutrional value wahtsoever
12:30:25 <Quiznos> nturitional
12:30:26 <Quartus_> virl, call it what you like; if you think it's worth doing, step up.
12:30:44 <virl> old shit = old bloat which was produced by a lot of forth systems, new good design = the current way new forths are going.
12:30:45 <madwork> Quiznos, OK then add olives instead.
12:30:59 <Quiznos> okidoke
12:31:03 <Quiznos> mu-stard?
12:31:06 <madwork> And tell Don Cherry to screw off already.
12:31:13 <Quiznos> whodat?
12:31:17 <Quartus_> quiznos, are you drunk?
12:31:33 <Quiznos> [burp]
12:31:35 <Quiznos> no
12:31:48 <virl> it's worth doing a reform, but I can't change this bloat old systems are, because it needs to be portable. so we have this bunch of idiotness like the intel chips.
12:31:49 <Quartus_> a shame, it'd at least be an excuse.
12:31:58 <Quiznos> i need no excuse
12:32:06 <Quiznos> virl why a reform?
12:32:19 <virl> hmm, ANS Forth = intel chips can be good compared, both stupid, both a pain in the ass.
12:32:37 <Quartus_> oh. So it's overdue and worth doing, but it's impossible, is that it?
12:33:02 <timlarson> virl, from your thinking so far, what would be your key changes?
12:33:03 <virl> because I don't like ANS Forth, period
12:33:25 <Quartus_> timlarson, what thinking?
12:33:28 <timlarson> or to phrase that better, what would constitute a good system now.
12:33:31 <Quiznos> virl can you be spezivic?
12:34:37 <timlarson> for example, would you prefer compile-only?
12:34:49 <timlarson> instead of state
12:35:03 <juri_> is there an equivilent book to 'mastering algorithms in c' for forth?
12:35:10 <virl> lowcase letters, clear words.
12:35:22 <Quiznos> juri_ taygeta has lots of good code to study from
12:35:27 <juri_> or a book on forth compiler design?
12:35:33 <Quiznos> virl instad of upcased words?
12:35:51 <timlarson> juri_, no, you are expected to do all the research first-hand and write the book and code yourself (or at least some seem to think so)
12:35:53 <Quiznos> juri_ there are NO good books left in print; ask ebay and amazon
12:36:05 <Quiznos> all the good books were printed in the 80s
12:36:11 <Quiznos> and i think i have most of them
12:36:21 <juri_> tim: werent you starting on something?
12:36:35 <Quartus_> juri, there are several books on Forth compiler design, none presently in print that I'm aware of. There's online material at Forth UK that's not bad.
12:36:39 <virl> juri_, I don't think so, because Forth seems to a language which isn't worth writing books today.
12:36:48 <virl> hmm, perhaps I should write a book...
12:37:00 <Quiznos> juri_ google does return a good list of anchors for +forth +programming
12:37:10 <Quartus_> yes, use all lower case and clear words.
12:37:30 <Quiznos> i still have Loeliger's book somewhere
12:37:35 <Quiznos> that's one of the earliest
12:37:38 <Quiznos> late 70s
12:37:58 <Quartus_> TIL isn't a terribly useful book.
12:38:01 <timlarson> juri_, on a more serious note I am doing research, so anything I would write would probably not be accepted by people used to ANS.
12:38:02 <Quiznos> for a threaded langauge writ for z80 
12:38:04 <virl> and somehow I think nowadays a good forth has a bunch of colorforths concepts.
12:38:11 <Quiznos> quartus, it's good to larn from
12:38:38 <Quartus_> larn.
12:38:41 <Quiznos> i also had the two volume paperbooks but i cant find one of the volums
12:38:44 <timlarson> virl, comments on compile-only forths?
12:38:45 <virl> I think chuck summarized it in colorforths words pretty well what I think a good forth is.
12:38:46 <Quiznos> anyone have that set?
12:39:12 <Quiznos> i think the set focused on the FIG model
12:39:23 <Quiznos> had thick paper printed on it
12:39:33 <Quiznos> rather, used thick paper for printing
12:39:35 <virl> timlarson, compile-only forths? so forths which don't have the flexibility of switching between states?
12:39:56 <timlarson> not exactly...
12:40:27 <virl> ok, then what?
12:40:30 <Quiznos> compile-only? isnt that what non-forth compilers are?
12:40:47 <timlarson> they are always compiling, just sometimes to a named word to be called much later and other times to an anonymous, throw-away word to be executed immediately.
12:41:01 <Quiznos> those are called lambdas
12:41:14 <virl> if it's ment so then I would call that a forth-N translator and not a forth
12:41:21 <timlarson> so things like looping are always available, not just in compile mode, for example.
12:41:34 <Quiznos> there are forth compilers available
12:41:46 <timlarson> Quiznos, true it does bring it closer to lisp.
12:41:47 <Quartus_> but conditional compilation is impossible.
12:41:55 <Quiznos> timlarson not just lips
12:42:07 <Quiznos> lambdas arent limited to lisp
12:42:12 <timlarson> lets not get all gushy here, Quiznos 
12:42:17 * Quiznos oozes
12:42:57 <Quiznos> i really need to build libary cases for all my books
12:43:23 <timlarson> a compile-only forth gives you one good language that works at compile time and runtime, etc. instead of one good runtime language and a half-baked complex language for compile time.
12:43:41 <Quiznos> wait till you try to write a meta compiler :)
12:43:51 <Quartus_> Half-baked?
12:44:14 <timlarson> half-baked -> personal opinion, you do not have to subscribe to it.
12:44:22 <Quartus_> are you drinking John Doty's koolaid?
12:44:46 <timlarson> had the ideas long ago, just using his terminology.
12:45:17 <Quartus_> indeed, I do not. You, however, having publically advanced the opinion, might reasonably be expected to support it with example.
12:45:33 <timlarson> ok...
12:46:36 <timlarson> forth starts out as a simple (uncomplicated) language...then we add state and state-smart words, etc. and it becomes very complicated (which you may stop noticing with enough practice, but this does not negate the complexity).
12:46:55 <Quiznos> state schmate
12:46:58 <Quartus_> for example?
12:47:14 <timlarson> it goes from something that you can grasp on first meeting it in a few minutes to something that takes quite a while to get comfortable with.
12:47:29 <Quiznos> that's why writing your own forth is prefereable
12:47:51 <timlarson> which I have several times...(of course you would expect that, right?)
12:47:56 <Quartus_> still waiting for an example of 'half-baked', and now also 'extremely complex due to state'.
12:48:10 <Quiznos> IMO the only good thing about ANS is that it establishes the meaning of words but not their definition.  that's a coder's job
12:48:18 <virl> the good thing with states is that you can compute things and then put it into the word, so how do you want to solve such things a compile-only forth?
12:48:30 <Quiznos> that's true too
12:48:31 <timlarson> half-baked refered to the idea of taking something simple and making it complex when there are simple options that could have been chosen instead.
12:48:38 <Quiznos> [ 1 3 + ] @ ,
12:48:43 <Quiznos> peekage
12:48:43 <Quartus_> for example?
12:48:55 <Quiznos> timlarson better feed the Quartus
12:49:25 <Quartus_> Sandwich store, that snippet makes no sense.
12:49:38 <Quiznos> the pseudo-nick is sammich
12:49:52 <Quiznos> and i'm encouraging tim to answer your request
12:50:18 <timlarson> first, compiling may mean to bytecode, or to machine code, etc.
12:50:32 <Quartus_> your snippet.  [ 1 3 + ] @  doesn't make sense.
12:51:13 <juri_> tim: would it make sense to have one forth standard for compiled forths, and another standard for interpreted forths?
12:51:18 <Quiznos> i may have the ][ backwards but the point is to switch to interpret mode, add and switch back to compile, fetch and ,
12:51:33 <Quartus_> tim, what does implementation internals have to do with what you've already said?
12:51:35 <timlarson> second, always compiling does not prevent pre-computing things to put them into a word...it just splits out another time for this separate from parse time.
12:51:43 <virl> you could solve this with following construct, when you inline every word explicitly, so: : word 4 2 3 + * , ' blah c, ;
12:53:17 <virl> so we don't have states. the source 'communicates' interactively with the interpreter
12:53:38 <virl> hmm... that's quite pretty
12:54:52 <timlarson> "compile-only" to me means that we never parse and execute in one step, but due to anonymous throw-away words we still have interactivity and can still pre-compute things to put into our saved/named words.
12:54:54 <virl> so we don't compile everything but we interpret the most and that's what a forth system normally does
12:55:56 <virl> timlarson, well I see a better thing than compile-only and that was what I showed, you only showed me the opportunity for this idea.
12:56:25 <timlarson> great :)
12:56:39 <Quartus_> tim, have you ever worked with such a system? try building something useful and simple like tester.fs with it.
12:56:56 <timlarson> I would rather be improved on than only be stagnantly (possibly) right.
12:56:57 <virl> and that was: running the interpreter the whole time and removing the compile state
12:57:34 <Quartus_> and I'm still waiting for either example. Unless, as I strongly suspect, you're just throwing out emotionally-weighted unsupportable allegations.
12:57:43 <timlarson> a compile-only system looks like it is running the interpreter the whole time... that is the impression it gives the programmer.
12:57:55 <virl> haha. I think I put that concept into xell. it supports xell stream nature.
12:58:30 <tathi> timlarson: I don't see that.  how about an example?
13:00:40 <Quartus_> I advise against holding your breath while waiting.
13:02:45 <tathi> heh.  I just switched back to this window and I *was* holding my breath.  hiccups. :)
13:03:02 <Quartus_> heh
13:04:28 <Quartus_> I hope you're breathing now, 'cause it's a long wait for a train that isn't coming.
13:05:09 <tathi> yah
13:07:08 <Quartus_> from what I saw, Doty's whole argument was that words like CHAR and [CHAR], ' and ['] were redundant. The flaw in this was pointed out, but I don't know if he absorbed it.
13:09:22 <madwork> pForth is compile-only, IIRC.
13:09:35 <Quiznos> 4thcmp too
13:09:36 <timlarson> could you repeat that "pointing out" here, please?
13:09:39 <Quiznos> true compiler
13:10:04 <timlarson> tathi, what is it that you do not see
13:10:38 <tathi> I don't see why separating compiling from parsing gives the illusion that it is running the interpreter the whole time
13:10:58 <tathi> or why you think that it would make any user-visible difference -- seems like an implementation detail to me.
13:11:27 <Quartus_> you can find it in Liz Rather's reply to Doty. [CHAR] and CHAR are similarly named, and have similar purpose, but not the same.  CHAR does not exist for the sole purpose of use at the console. A defined word may well wish to parse a character from input.
13:13:25 <timlarson> tathi,  I doubt that arguing it here is going to lead to much...I would probably forget some important detail and run into trouble...when I finish my current system then perhaps I could discuss this more understandably.
13:14:46 <Quartus_> so no examples, no discussion, just some emotive language about Forth being 'half-baked', and you shut down. Helpful.
13:14:51 <timlarson> and with an actual running system to back the idea we will see if it really works well.
13:15:44 <madwork> timlarson, so it's just a theory at this point.
13:16:12 <Quartus_> with apologies to the word 'theory'.
13:16:57 <timlarson> I have running code for most of this, but until I write detailed tests to check for unhandled edge cases I do not want to make too strong a claim past your word "theory"
13:22:19 <madwork> You're still going to need immediate words and such... it's just rather that words that are usually compile-only will work (in a temporary fashion) at interpret-time. 
13:23:10 <Quartus_> And words that work while interpreting will all have to have immediate versions made available.
13:24:06 <Quartus_> or eliminated completely, as would be the case with the conditional compilation words.
13:25:31 <Quartus_> Somehow this will complete the baking process.
13:25:36 <timlarson> now you are making progress, expressing individual issues and solutions instead of attacking the "theoretician".
13:26:12 <Quartus_> tim, we asked for even one example to justify your bold assertion. You've provided none.
13:26:23 <timlarson> keep this up and we will have a friendly channel that moves forward.
13:26:25 <madwork> Heh. You guys, just quiddit. :P
13:26:39 <timlarson> well until that last Q comment.
13:27:27 <Quartus_> How about this for friendly: if you have a theory to put forward, do that. Don't use emotive language, be prepared to discuss your theory, and respond when asked questions.
13:27:42 <timlarson> don't ruffle your feathers at bold assertions (that just makes arguments)...work with the ideas instead to see what new things you could make and what their tradeoffs are.
13:27:50 <virl> hmm. it's interesting.
13:28:42 <Quartus_> In other (your) words, don't come around half-baked, and then complain when that's pointed out to you.
13:29:12 <vatic> madwork: I don't believe pForth is compile-only. It follows the ANS standard.
13:29:17 <virl> if I look at my old docs about xell, there was already that idea. wow, I'm such a genius ;-)
13:29:34 <Quartus_> I thought pForth was ANS too, unless there's more than one.
13:29:50 <timlarson> it is not too new an idea, but that does not affect whether you are a genius or not.
13:30:03 <timlarson> ;)
13:30:11 <vatic> Quartus_: Just Phil Burk's AFAIK...
13:30:24 <virl> timlarson, it was a joke 
13:30:37 <timlarson> I know, I know, hence the ;)
13:30:50 <Quartus_> there was a godawful weeknd palm forth called pforth, or maybe ppforth.
13:31:36 <vatic> Quartus_: at least you didn't change the name to DragonForth...
13:31:45 <timlarson> remember the core idea of php?
13:32:32 <Quartus_> hey, I'm an unwilling contributor to DragonForth, the originator directly lifted some of my library code back when DF was still a commercial venture.
13:34:02 <vatic> Quartus_: urgh...
13:34:18 <Quiznos> that sux
13:34:23 <vatic> Quartus_: there are efforts to revive it...
13:34:35 <Quartus_> That was the noise I made. He also came onto the Quartus forum repeatedly to advertise it.
13:35:38 <madwork> I may be wrong on which forth has the compiling interpret-mode. I'll double-check.
13:37:41 <Quartus_> how would you even define a variable or constant in a compile-only system?
13:38:12 <madwork> PForth V21
13:38:12 <madwork> pForth loading dictionary from file pforth.dic
13:38:12 <madwork>      File format version is 8
13:38:12 <madwork>      Name space size = 120000
13:38:12 <madwork>      Code space size = 300000
13:38:13 <madwork>      Entry Point     = 0
13:38:14 <madwork>      Little  Endian Dictionary
13:38:16 <madwork> Begin AUTO.INIT ------
13:38:18 <madwork> 1 if ." foo!" then
13:38:21 <madwork> foo!   ok
13:38:22 <madwork> Stack<10>
13:39:13 <Quartus_> madwork, I think that may be some hybrid, dropping into a temporary namelesss definition only when a compiling word is encountered.
13:39:48 <madwork> "pForth is a portable ANS style Forth written in 'C' and designed..."
13:41:35 <madwork> "Smart Conditionals
13:41:35 <madwork> In pForth, you can use IF THEN DO LOOP and other conditionals outside of colon definitions. PForth will switch temporarily into the compile state, then automatically execute the conditional code. (Thank you Mitch Bradley) For example, just enter this at the keyboard. 
13:41:35 <madwork> 10 0 DO I . LOOP"
13:42:03 <Quiznos> -1
13:42:07 <madwork> Anyway, I think *that* is a great idea, and have considered it myself.
13:42:09 <vatic> madwork: I think smart_if.fth enables conditionals outside the compilation...
13:42:12 <Quartus_> and then executing the nameless word once the control-flow stack is rebalanced. I built one like that back in '93.
13:42:47 <madwork> timlarson, is this behaviour less than what you had in mind for your compile-only Forth?
13:43:29 <timlarson> that is the start of it, but there is more...for my version sadly you will have to wait till I finish it.
13:43:35 <Quiznos> tim, what's the output a your forth?
13:43:47 <Quiznos> of your
13:43:48 <timlarson> but I am glad to see that you like at least this part :)
13:44:00 <timlarson> currently a type of bytecode.
13:44:06 <Quiznos> k
13:44:24 <madwork> timlarson, it makes perfect sense to allow useful compile-time words at the prompt.
13:44:26 <Quiznos> what type?
13:46:21 <timlarson> I get the formal terms mixed up (one of the reasons I like simplicty) but currently a number for each base word and a base word number and an address for each call.
13:46:33 <timlarson> does that answer close enough to what you wanted to know?
13:47:28 <Quiznos> well you wrote 'a type of'
13:47:41 <madwork> timlarson, you intend the bytecode to be portable? Is there a reason not to just go with a more efficient threaded code directly, and then perhaps "pickle" the state of the machine when you want a binary?
13:47:43 <timlarson> madwork, and by "at the prompt" in this case I would think you would also include "in source code" outside of colon defs, right?
13:47:54 <madwork> timlarson, yep.
13:48:14 --- join: test123 (n=test123@69.15.118.250) joined #forth
13:48:58 <timlarson> madwork, the bytecode is just to get it working quickly...I may at some point borrow code from one of the pd forths (retro or free for example) to compile it native.
13:49:05 <test123> can anyone recommend a microcontroller for learning forth?  lego mindstorms?
13:49:55 <madwork> LEGO mindstorms + Forth sounds great to me. :)
13:50:00 <madwork> No experience with it yet, though.
13:50:15 <Quartus_> using a mindstorms brick to learn Forth strikes me as a difficult approach. Why do you want to learn it on an embedded system?
13:50:22 <Quiznos> test123 what choices are there?
13:50:40 <madwork> timlarson, still, it seems that bytecode would be more work than just going direct to TIL.
13:50:53 <test123> i'm interested in learning robotics concepts
13:51:22 <test123> i know its an interdisciplinary endeavour.
13:51:43 <timlarson> madwork, you may be right, I will look at that possibility the next time I look at the code.
13:54:10 <test123> quiznos choices for embedded systems?
13:54:46 <Quiznos> you asked about forth
13:54:52 <test123> i don't know about forth, but i learned a little assembly language programming PIC
13:56:45 <timlarson> time to go, cya later.
13:56:45 <madwork> test123, have you found the pbForth home page?
13:56:56 <madwork> timlarson, bye
13:57:11 --- quit: timlarson ("Leaving")
13:57:32 <test123> found it.
13:57:32 <virl> bah, I'm so frustrated, here aren't much people who are interested in doing forth.
13:58:20 <test123> are you referring to the one at http://www.hempeldesigngroup.com/lego/pbForth/homePage.html
13:58:38 <madwork> virl, ?
13:59:01 <virl> at the location where I'm
13:59:03 <Quiznos> virl teach a man to code and he'll code for a day. teach a man to think in forth and he'll code for life.
13:59:15 <test123> LOL
13:59:17 <Quiznos> -- me
13:59:20 <madwork> virl, oh. 
13:59:21 <Quiznos> that's mine!
13:59:24 <Quiznos> :)
13:59:32 <virl> Quiznos, what has that todo with what I wrote?
13:59:38 <test123> coding seems to be a broader skill, therefore more enduring
14:00:08 <Quiznos> you're lamenting the disinterested instead of expresing show for knowing forth and those who also share your interest.
14:00:16 <Quiznos> your glass is half-empty.
14:01:00 <test123> the javascript channel has 179 users vs. 29 the forth channe.
14:01:02 <test123> l
14:01:16 <Quiznos> dont be jealous of what others have
14:01:17 <virl> Quartus, do you have a problem with that?
14:02:03 <virl> eh Quiznos
14:02:10 <Quiznos> with what?
14:02:28 <virl> 'your glass is half-empty'
14:02:42 <madwork> Someone drop into the javascript channel and proclaim that "FROTH SI TEH KEWL!!1111 JION TEH #FORTH CHANEL!!!!11" and then we'll be flooded with eager script kiddies. :)
14:02:56 <test123> what is taught in computer science?  perl and C?
14:03:00 <Quiznos> a problem? no, i'm just saying what your perspective is.
14:03:10 <tathi> Java
14:03:14 <Quiznos> heh
14:03:23 <virl> Quiznos, I see that because others have it easier
14:03:27 <tathi> well, when I was in school anyway
14:03:40 <test123> how long ago was that?
14:03:51 <tathi> a couple years
14:04:08 <tathi> no, wait.  five years
14:04:08 <test123> ok not long ago
14:04:11 <test123> LOL
14:04:12 <Quiznos> virl you more than most know how to forth-code.  you know what the productivity level of forth is.  non-forthers have it harder.
14:04:32 <Quiznos> dont be jealous over what they apparently have; they work harder for it, not smarter.
14:05:01 <virl> well, Quiznos I know that I lose.
14:05:30 <Quiznos> our problem with forth is that it lacks "scaffolding" and "foundation"; excepts include fpc and gforth and maybe i440's pkg
14:05:44 <Quiznos> code for yourself, not others.
14:06:43 <virl> yeah, I code for myself, but you can't go everytimes the lonley-man way
14:06:54 <Quiznos> then choose your way.
14:08:05 --- quit: test123 (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-")
14:08:09 <virl> I know I could try, but will fail to interest others, because if there isn't an interest in lowlevel coding then you lose with such a language like forth, you could perhaps only interest them for factor
14:08:37 <Quiznos> wow virl, respectfully, you need to squint alittle instead of pondering your lack
14:08:49 <Quiznos> stop looking at what you dont have
14:09:22 <virl> my lack?
14:09:31 <Quiznos> wht others have that you dont
14:09:57 <virl> and what do others have and I don't?
14:10:15 <Quiznos> everything you complained about a few moments ago
14:10:36 <virl> I see it only realistic nothing more
14:10:49 <Quiznos> it's not good to be jealous because of what you lack
14:12:12 <virl> I don't see your point
14:12:23 <Quiznos> ok
14:12:29 <Quiznos> ponder it then
14:12:56 <virl> why I should ponder that? it hasn't to be pondered
14:14:48 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:17:08 <virl> not needed to be pondered
14:18:35 <Quiznos> it's good advice.
14:18:55 <virl> no it's a useless one
14:19:04 <Quiznos> then you dont know what it is.
14:19:48 <virl> it's simply brainless
14:20:08 <Quiznos> wow
14:20:09 <Quiznos> ok
14:20:34 <Quiznos> it's too easy to spit upon things unrecogised
14:22:02 <virl> you simply don't see the problem
14:22:31 <Quiznos> nor do you, but i'd never spit on their words.
14:22:49 <Quiznos> i'd be grateful for at least offering what they had to say.
14:25:31 <virl> my problem is simply the lack of interested people in my location, only that is my problem.
14:26:30 --- nick: madwork -> QUIDDIT
14:26:40 <Quartus> You complain that Forth is not more popular, but you aggressively oppose standardization, and in fact have built your own fringe implementation, thus moving you as far away from any popular Forth as possible.
14:26:42 --- nick: QUIDDIT -> madwork
14:27:28 <virl> because that is exactly Forth and not the mainstream
14:27:28 <Quiznos> that's a different complaint
14:27:39 <Quiznos> the previous post
14:28:05 <virl> besides that I admitted that others have it easier in finding people, having less pain and so on.
14:34:54 <virl> Forth is simply not the current mainstream
14:35:29 <Quartus> And what of it there is that's remotely close to mainstream, you don't want any part of.
14:36:46 <Quartus> Given that, it's not surprising you find a lack of community, both in real life and online.
14:37:53 <docl> hey I know, we could write our own *better* specification :P
14:38:00 <virl> here you don't find Forth interests no matter of which fucking dialect
14:38:12 <virl> docl, that's right
14:38:13 <madwork> Forth needs the killer apps, not the specifications.
14:38:25 <virl> Forth needs both
14:38:29 <madwork> Do cool stuff with Forth, people will use it.
14:38:43 <madwork> Sure, but for mainstream acceptance, it mostly needs more visibility.
14:39:03 <docl> if it passes both virl and Quartus' approval it'd be pretty darned good ;)
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14:39:22 <madwork> MUCK with its MUF language is an example.
14:39:30 <docl> good point
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14:40:20 <virl> madwork, look, there are also assembler guys who do nice stuff in assembler but is that enough for other people to learn assembler? no.
14:40:27 <madwork> Sure it is.
14:40:33 <docl> virl: assembler is tough to learn
14:40:36 <madwork> Just don't expect everybody to learn it.
14:40:45 <virl> I haven't seen any person which did that
14:41:04 <virl> I don't expect anything like 'everbody'
14:41:14 <virl> I only hope that a couple like it.
14:41:17 <docl> also, it is sooo chip-specific. although with everything turning x86 these days that's getting better.
14:41:39 <I440r> ok dangit who is it in here thats a gentoo developer ?
14:41:50 <docl> hey, maybe 386 asm will be the wave of the future, and everyone will forget all that C garbage :)
14:41:53 <Quartus> I find quite a few people interested in Forth, actually.
14:42:10 <virl> docl, you are really optimistic
14:42:24 <virl> not here...
14:42:30 <virl> Quartus, not here ...
14:43:33 <virl> well, I hope I get some interested, two seemed interested.
14:43:48 <madwork> virl, you've polled the entire country, and found nobody interested in Forth (or ASM)?
14:44:00 <docl> which country? :)
14:44:03 <madwork> virl's
14:44:43 <madwork> Seems to be lots of ASM coders here, BTW: http://www.pouet.net/
14:44:45 <AI_coder> I know a little gentoo...
14:44:47 <Quartus> Here? You mean the town where you live?
14:45:26 <madwork> Quartus, is there a Forth interest group in Toronto?
14:45:30 <virl> not the country only the city, that's something I know better than the country
14:45:43 <Quartus> madwork, possibly.  There used to be.  I stopped attending.
14:45:54 <madwork> virl, put up some posters and ads for Forth users, start a group.
14:46:13 <docl> some people are vocally *dis*interested in what they percieve as unhip.
14:46:17 <virl> I tried it, but failed at the first try.
14:46:22 <madwork> Quartus, stopped attending... was it like a local version of c.l.f or something? ;)
14:46:23 <I440r> no - someone in here is a registered gentoo developer but i cant remember who
14:46:24 <I440r> lol
14:46:43 <virl> I announced a Forth workshop, nobody wanted it.
14:46:45 <Quartus> madwork, one very weird guy, and another one who became some kind of extremely annoying Genetix convert.
14:46:49 <madwork> virl, I tried fishing, and I failed the first try. There are no fish in the lake that are interested in biting my hook.
14:47:03 <Quartus> A few others who were fine, but the online community had more to offer without the same hassles.
14:47:24 <virl> I tried to get over anton ertl for forth interests and failed
14:47:50 <virl> so exactly I tried two times.
14:47:54 <I440r> what do u mean get over him ?
14:48:09 <madwork> Quartus, aggressively weird people suck.
14:48:11 <virl> to get contacts from him
14:48:17 <Quartus> madwork, they do.
14:48:30 <madwork> And they mostly eat at Quiznos.
14:48:48 <Quartus> And having been asked to consult on an article about Genetix, and thus knowing far more than I would have liked about it, I couldn't bear the drivel coming out of the other guy.
14:49:24 <madwork> Unfortunately, Forth seems to attract some zealots.
14:49:46 <virl> and even anton ertl said, that all his students weren't interested into it
14:50:05 <virl> in it? or into it?
14:50:14 <madwork> in it
14:50:19 <madwork> Or, weren't into it.
14:50:21 <Quartus> Maybe he didn't want to give out contact info for his students to a stranger who wanted to meet them in person.
14:50:21 <virl> ok, then in it
14:50:51 <virl> well, we met and talked three hours or so
14:51:00 <virl> he is btw. a nice guy
14:51:05 <madwork> Quartus, he probably feared a sneak annoyance attack from the Genetix guy on his students.
14:51:25 <Quartus> The Genetix guy is in Canada, or was.
14:51:43 <madwork> "was?"
14:51:48 <madwork> So, where's the shallow grave located?
14:52:01 <Quartus> I have to assume you kept the 'ANS SUX0RS' conversation to a minimum, because Ertl would counterargue you into a small grease spot if you tried.
14:52:25 <Quartus> madwork, heh. He could still be alive.  This was years back, he could be anywhere by now, still filling out paperwork for government grants.
14:52:36 <Quartus> I'm trying to remember his name. Let me do a search.
14:52:57 <virl> well, I don't say ANS SUX0RS, what do you think I'm a fucking script kiddie? or what?
14:53:01 <Quartus> I mean the Genetix 'guy', not the guy at the meetings.
14:53:02 <Quartus> "Bernard A. Hodson".
14:53:39 <AI_coder> Does anyone have an opinion on development time for forth projects?
14:54:03 <Quartus> Yes, virl, I think your attitudes toward Forth are quite similar in tone to those held about a lot of things by script kiddies.
14:54:17 <Quartus> AI_coder, I think your question is too specific, you need to broaden it a bit. :)
14:54:29 <AI_coder> My sarcasm meter is going nuts again.
14:54:42 <Quartus> Shorten it to "Does anyone have an opinion?" :)
14:55:36 <AI_coder> Quartus: Are you the guy from Canada we teased a while back in #c?
14:55:55 <Quartus> AI_coder, I'm from Canada.  I don't remember being teased in #c.
14:56:03 <virl> Quartus, what is my attitude!? I take this humiliation personally
14:56:49 <AI_coder> I remember making a comment about Canadians being funny and you had a good sense of humor, but you were like, "Yeah we're all the same up here, Canadians are all like one another."
14:57:11 <AI_coder> Then we told you that you were one unfunny Canadian and kinda bitter about it.
14:57:18 <Quartus> Oh, I vaguely remember someone making dumbass generalizations about the whole country. Was that you?
14:57:35 <AI_coder> Quartus: Nah, I think you were just being defensive.
14:57:54 <AI_coder> Were you the guy that was taking insults from idle chat?
14:58:05 <Quartus> When someone's being offensive, being defensive is an appropriate response.
14:58:17 <Quartus> What are 'insults from idle chat'?
14:58:43 <AI_coder> That's when someone gets all pissy over listless banter.
14:59:12 <Quartus> Listen, I barely remember the whole exchange.  Get over it.
14:59:26 <AI_coder> Quartus: You seem to be the one all uptight.
14:59:35 <AI_coder> I was just laughing about it.
14:59:41 <Quartus> I'm not the one who brought it up.
14:59:55 <AI_coder> Ok, sorry mrs. pms.
15:00:04 <AI_coder> Sand in your vagina?
15:00:10 <Quartus> Juvenile.  Keep it to yourself, please.
15:00:56 <AI_coder> Hey, you pissed yourself off, nobody made you angry but yourself.
15:01:11 <Quartus> Do you have something to contribute here? Or just more of this?
15:01:12 <AI_coder> You're in the wrong place if you have thin skin.
15:01:43 <tathi> AI_coder: will you just drop it already?
15:01:45 <AI_coder> Sure, how does forth compare to other programming languages in development time?
15:01:52 <madwork> I wonder how far into the future the conversations in #forth logs will be searchable online.
15:02:13 <docl> hmm, is defensiveness really the appropriate response to offensiveness?
15:02:38 <madwork> docl, if you block too much, you'll get hit eventually. It's best to counterattack. :)
15:02:52 <docl> so, a good offense :)
15:02:54 <AI_coder> Yeah, isn't being defensive on par with getting your butt kicked?
15:02:55 <tathi> yeah, offensiveness seems to be a more common response :)
15:03:28 <madwork> AI_coder, well it's possible to play possum, draw the opponent in, and then go for a quick submission.
15:03:45 <AI_coder> madwork: I like that one, but it's tough to do.
15:04:04 <AI_coder> You have to have a real dolt for it to work, in that case it's not worth doing.
15:04:50 <madwork> Sure it is, if you're looking to win the fight and move on.
15:05:08 <madwork> Otherwise, you risk getting taken out by a puncher's chance.
15:05:18 <AI_coder> Bah, winning is for losers, challenges are what kings are made out of.
15:05:24 --- part: tathi left #forth
15:05:26 <madwork> Dead kings. ;)
15:05:29 <AI_coder> hehe
15:05:51 <docl> well, offensive behaviour in public is not really appropriate.
15:06:02 <AI_coder> docl: I believe we chased off the lady.
15:06:10 <AI_coder> How unfortunate...
15:06:33 <Quiznos> forth needs underlayment
15:06:46 <Quiznos> a subfloor
15:06:46 <AI_coder> I agree with the above stated fact.
15:06:58 <AI_coder> Forth needs killer apps, then killer developers will come.
15:07:09 <Quiznos> forth needs a foundation first
15:07:19 <AI_coder> Forth has a foundation, that's why we're here.
15:07:32 <AI_coder> It needs some good code now.
15:08:01 <Quiznos> now the problem is that those sub-under-foundations arent usually provided in free packages; fpc, f83 the notable exceptions, and whatever packages also provide them 
15:08:05 <AI_coder> I suck at it, but I got interested after seeing it spank the other languages in concurrency on the language shootout.
15:08:36 <madwork> AI_coder, got link?
15:08:41 <AI_coder> Let me find it.
15:09:02 <Quiznos> AI_coder i asure you that is only the tip of forthified possibilities
15:09:41 <AI_coder> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=chameneos&lang=all
15:09:45 <docl> Quiznos: what kind of a foundation are you envisioning?
15:09:52 <AI_coder> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=message&lang=all
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15:10:26 <Quiznos> docl nothing missing and nothing broken :)
15:10:32 <Quiznos> everything needed.
15:10:55 <Quiznos> flexibility, responsiveness and the kitchen sink
15:10:57 <docl> i.e. a subset of forth words to build the rest from?
15:10:59 <AI_coder> Also, the clean, concise, readable syntax drew me in.
15:11:00 <Quiznos> nah
15:11:05 <Quiznos> why think small?
15:11:15 <Quiznos> the think that is small is the kernel itself.
15:11:22 <Quiznos> we gotta fill out that puppy
15:11:22 <docl> an emacs-like forth?
15:11:26 <Quiznos> a replacement
15:11:34 <Quiznos> forth can do so much more than emacs
15:11:41 <docl> of course :)
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15:11:45 <AI_coder> Curiously haskell did suprisingly well.
15:11:51 <Quiznos> emacs is the pinnacle; and there are other unoccupied pinnacles
15:12:03 <madwork> Wow, Lua did well.
15:12:05 <Quiznos> i must grab one
15:13:18 <docl> what are some unoccupied pinnacles?
15:13:37 <madwork> Wow, Python did crappily.
15:14:07 <AI_coder> madwork: Yeah, I decided to study other programming languages once I saw that C and Perl had serious competition in run speeds and usability, as well as a new way to think of programming.
15:14:22 <Quiznos> docl they just are.  pinnacles are an inexhaustible resource :)
15:14:30 <AI_coder> madwork: Well python is interpreted, the secret would be to tie a python front-end to a gcc back-end.
15:14:38 <AI_coder> But ssshhhh, don't tell anyone.
15:14:43 <Quiznos> forth ->gcc too
15:14:55 <madwork> AI_coder, Lua is interpreted also, and written in C, yet it beat C out.
15:15:20 <AI_coder> madwork: Only some applications.
15:15:30 <madwork> I'm just looking at concurrency.
15:16:00 <AI_coder> In fact, C was mostly 10-15X better than lua at almost every task than lua.
15:16:16 <madwork> That sounds reasonable.
15:17:21 <docl> Quiznos: I'd like to see a forth-based Opera clone
15:17:30 <Quiznos> heh, in time
15:17:36 <madwork> There's no reason why Lua should beat any C equivalent.
15:17:44 <I440r> i want to do a console based web browser in isforth
15:17:49 <I440r> i cant stand links or lynx
15:17:55 <docl> I440r: that'd be sweet
15:17:57 <Quiznos> docl i dont know any limits to what is possible with forth
15:18:20 <madwork> I want to make an interactive game programming environment that uses Forth.
15:18:31 <I440r> ya
15:18:44 <madwork> Indoctrinate a new generation of young Forthers. ;)
15:18:48 <I440r> now that i have signals figured out i can do alot better with the sockets part of isforth
15:18:50 <docl> yay :)
15:18:56 <I440r> need to get the dns resolver finished
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15:20:44 <Quartus> madwork, that was Phil Burk's pforth you were talking about earlier?
15:20:54 <madwork> Yes, I believe so.
15:21:16 <madwork> http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/
15:21:22 <Quartus> Thanks. Just found that.
15:21:51 <Quartus> I am trying to remember across 13 years what issue I found with doing what pforth does, triggering temporary compilation on branch constructs.
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15:23:58 <juri_> personally, i'd like to see a forth frontend to gcc first.
15:24:20 <juri_> from what i hear, gforth is nothing near.
15:24:34 <Quartus> What form do you imagine that taking?  Forth is interactive, after all.  You mean a Forth that would target-compile to C code?
15:24:37 <madwork> Quartus, I gather there's a whole new level of state to be managed. Sounds like a pain in the ass.
15:25:10 <Quartus> madwork, I can't recall if I found a specific wierdness with it, or if I just decided against it because it would lead me to doing things that wouldn't work in other Forths.
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15:27:45 <Quartus> One thing was that it complicated error detection for certain kinds of errors.  If you missed out a : you might get very odd results instead of a simple message about acting outside of a definition.
15:28:04 <docl> juri_: there's a c lib in retroforth that might be hackable into that
15:30:13 <docl> Quiznos: might there be some psychological limitation?
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15:34:24 <juri_> i'd just like to have a forth engine that compiled code, instead of being interactive, that way i could compare it to C in my day-to-day. then again, i'm so not familiar with forth. ;)
15:34:49 <madwork> Look at Swiftforth or something.
15:34:49 <docl> you thinking a translation engine that produces c code?
15:34:58 <Quartus> I think Hans Bezemer (spelling?) writes a target-only compiler called 4th.
15:35:19 <juri_> no, gcc's idea of frontend is a little off. just something that uses gcc to compile the code. c is not an intermediary.
15:36:05 <Quartus> And in smaller scale, Tom Almy's older compilers for DOS are quite neat.
15:36:12 <juri_> that way you can have sse2 optimizations, and stuff like that automatic-like.
15:37:07 <juri_> again, i'm an outsider looking in. but i have a severe distaste for interpreted languages, except for my pet one, that is. ;P
15:37:38 <Quartus> hmm, well, Forth isn't an interpreted language, as such.  It's an interactive incremental compiler.
15:40:02 <Quartus> Compiled code *might* be what could be called interpreted in some Forth implementations, but in a bytecode sort of way.  But that's not the only, nor the most currently prevalent, mode of compilation for Forth.
15:40:37 <juri_> thats halfway down the 'slippery slope'. i'm not quite comfortable trying out a language that.. different from my normals. tho i am here to learn about it. call it morbid curiosity. ;)
15:41:01 <Quartus> Well, there are interactive incremental C implementations, too.  I have one here.
15:41:21 <virl> Quartus, what's my attitude you?
15:41:58 <Quartus> virl, don't worry about it.  We've had this conversation before and it goes nowhere.  Sorry I responsed.
15:42:02 <Quartus> er, responded.
15:43:10 <juri_> quartus: thats an odd thing. but i prefer clean compiled, or clean interpreted. its easier for me to debug, and fit into my 'normal boxes'.
15:43:31 <juri_> i'm just suprised there isnt a pure compiler for it.
15:43:41 <virl> hmm, madwork you want a game engine?
15:43:54 <virl> it's my target with my xell project
15:44:05 <Quartus> You can certainly regard Forth as 'clean compiled' if you like, in general terms.  What would be a declaration in C,  say     int foo;    is actually an active process in Forth,          variable foo
15:44:09 <Quartus> Looks like a declaration, but isn't.
15:44:18 <madwork> virl, yes, but I want my own. ;) Will be interested to see what you come up with though.
15:44:31 <Quartus> If you are somehow more comfortable with compiled-only, check out 4th, it's the one that first comes to mind.
15:44:46 <docl> madwork: you've looked at crc's if engine, right?
15:45:20 <juri_> quartus: but is there a 'compiler' i can call to turn a .forth file into a object file, or an executable, under linux?
15:45:46 <virl> ok, no cooperation, bah. it could be easier.
15:45:54 <juri_> pardon my newbie questions. ;)
15:45:59 <Quartus> juri, I believe 4th is Windows-based, not linux.  I haven't needed to do turnkey generation of Forth under linux, so I can't speak to that.  I440r, does isforth create turnkeys?
15:46:32 <I440r> yes
15:46:39 <Quartus> juri_, often as not to execute a Forth program, the source is fed each time into the engine; it compiles so fast you can't tell.
15:46:40 <virl> juri_, well, there aren't really free forths which do that
15:46:47 <I440r> it saves list space without headers
15:46:55 <Quartus> So you can make an executable with isforth under linux?
15:46:56 <madwork> docl, no...
15:47:06 <I440r> when im metacompiling im going to have every vocabulary compile into its own memory space
15:47:16 <docl> actually librx in retro might to what juri_ is asking for
15:47:22 <I440r> and turnkey will have the ability to discard selected vocabularies
15:47:27 <madwork> virl, I just have too many of my own ideas, and they don't usually work well with others. ;)
15:47:28 <I440r> like the compiler vocabulary etc
15:47:46 <I440r> but thats a pipe dream till i can metacompile
15:48:02 <Quartus> I know gforth can save turnkeys of a sort, too, but they're not ELF or a.out format, they need gforth to run.
15:48:03 <virl> madwork, well a couple could work, like optimizations...
15:48:35 <virl> that's the imagefiles thing
15:49:01 <juri_> so, no. ;P
15:49:03 <Quartus> Hey juri_, just checked out 4th, I think it does work under Linux.
15:49:04 * juri_ googles. ;)
15:49:06 <virl> juri_, yep.
15:49:17 <Quartus> http://hansoft.come.to/
15:49:25 <virl> I'm thinking about doing that in retroforth
15:49:37 <I440r> juri isforth allows you to save out your application as a stand alone executable
15:49:39 <virl> should be theoretically relatively easy
15:50:08 <I440r> you can fsave it (leave the entire compiler intact) or turnkey it - turnkey strips all forth word headers prior to saving the target file
15:50:15 <virl> I440r, that's turnkey right?
15:50:19 <I440r> yes
15:50:24 <I440r> what you would do is 
15:50:30 <I440r>  ' my-app-main is quit
15:50:37 <I440r> turnkey my-application-file-name
15:50:46 <Quartus> juri_, I can't tell at a quick glance if it actually generates stand-alone executables.
15:51:00 <I440r> that leaves the default initialization chain intact 
15:51:04 <I440r> if you dont want that you can do
15:51:06 <Quartus> 4th, that is.
15:51:12 <I440r>  ' my-main is default
15:51:16 <I440r>  turnkey my-app
15:52:00 <Quartus> Ok. So juri_, you've got isforth (which is an interactive Forth) that can make standalone turnkeys, and 4th (which is not an interactive Forth, but rather a target compiler) that may or may not be able to generate standalone turnkeys.
15:52:05 <Quartus> Both under Linux.
15:52:21 <juri_> so, nothing i can call in a Makefile. ;P
15:52:33 <Quartus> You could call isforth from a makefile.
15:52:55 <I440r> you dont need a makefile in forth
15:53:15 <Quartus> No, you don't.  But you could use it that way if you felt it helped you in some odd fashion.
15:53:15 <I440r> isforth cant yet produce object files for linking into other applications
15:53:22 <I440r> i see no point in that at all
15:54:20 <virl> I440r, perhaps living in the C world?
15:54:20 <juri_> its about standardization. i'd like to build a project in forth, with several different algorithms implimented from my standard C algorithms book.
15:54:28 <I440r> would be nice to figure out how to get isforth to link into existing object files tho
15:54:34 <Quartus> You might be better off stepping out of your comfort zone and learning Forth for what it actually is, juri_.
15:54:35 * juri_ lives in C. :)
15:54:47 <I440r> virl thats the whole point of isforth. to HELL with the C world
15:55:07 <I440r> and anything you can do in c you can do in forth 
15:55:10 <I440r> smaller and better
15:55:15 <Quartus> Converting C line-by-line to Forth will result in some of the worst Forth code the world has yet seen.  It's not just another algol dialect.
15:55:19 <I440r> not always faster but who cares
15:55:37 <juri_> sounds great... but i cant autoconf, and build makefiles. sounds broken, from my viewpoint. ;)
15:55:48 <I440r> quartus the curent version of isforth has an almost direct port of the sealevel IO API hehe
15:55:54 <I440r> for their DIO cards
15:55:56 <Quartus> Ok. Well, it's not hard to talk yourself out of learning something new.
15:56:01 <I440r> well. only a partial port
15:56:07 <I440r> its not pretty but it works
15:56:10 <Quartus> sealevel?
15:56:17 <juri_> no, its not. think i'll continue to sit on the fence for a bit. ;)
15:56:19 <I440r> sealevel systems
15:56:29 * juri_ continues googling.
15:56:35 <I440r> they do alot of data acquisition stuff and digital I/O stuff
15:56:38 <Quartus> good luck, juri_. If you're interested in broadening your horizons and have any questions about Forth, let us know.
15:56:39 <I440r> pci cards etc
15:56:50 <Quartus> I440r, not familiar with those.
15:57:13 <I440r> they arent bad, they are also quite well known hehe
15:57:27 <Quartus> I must be out of the loop. :)
15:57:38 <I440r> so was I till i needed to use them :P
15:57:44 <I440r> their cards are supported in linux
15:58:04 <juri_> quartus: i'm reading the isforth pages right now.
15:58:16 <Quartus> I440r is the man to talk to for that, it's his implementation.
15:58:29 <I440r> juri im going to be working on the isforth documentation some times
15:58:35 <I440r> some time soon even
15:58:36 <juri_> oh, its his? ;)
15:58:40 <I440r> ya
15:59:02 <I440r> will gforth create turnkey apps ?
15:59:05 <I440r> or bigforth ?
15:59:34 <juri_> unix is primarily a C world, with makefiles, and object files. if forth could do that, it would probably be much easier to convert us unix heathens. ;)
15:59:37 <Quartus> gforth can save an image. I tried it once many moons ago.
16:00:16 <I440r> lol
16:00:22 <I440r> sounds like it was painfull for you
16:00:27 <Quartus> juri_, unix has a lot of C, but also Perl, bash, TCL, and increasing amounts of Ruby, Python, etc.
16:00:29 <segher> i think gforth can do turnkey, yeah.  you can also do gforth like unix shell scripts though, a lot nicer most of the time
16:00:35 <virl> juri_, well, when nobody before me finished it will be part of my project.
16:00:46 <I440r> juri you wouldnt be converted then though would you :)
16:01:18 <Quartus> juri_, segher is right -- #! /usr/local/gforth/gforth is a dandy way to write code using gforth.
16:01:19 <I440r> juri - how long would it take gcc to compile 250k of source ?
16:01:22 <juri_> i44: converted, no. but it would let us kick the tires a lot easier.
16:02:02 <I440r> isforth just compiled 248338 bytes in .165 seconds
16:02:07 <Quartus> I440r, I don't recall the pain level, just that it's possible. :)
16:02:13 <I440r> heh
16:02:46 <I440r> immagine being able to totally rebuild the linux kernel in 2 seconds flat on a 500 mhz p3
16:02:52 <docl> http://rx-core.org/ has the code for librx
16:03:14 <virl> I440r, you are dreaming, when you want to dump the whole source of linux
16:03:20 <juri_> compiler speed dosent impress me, sorry. its nice to know big programs are writen in it... but still. without object level compatibility, its hard to write a small piece in forth, and the rest in something else.
16:03:24 <I440r> or rebuilding openoffice in 3 minuts on the same
16:03:46 <virl> juri_, I know :|
16:03:55 <juri_> and thats what i'm looking for. :/
16:04:01 <Quartus> juri_, if it's code you need to produce right now, use the languages you already know well.  
16:04:17 <juri_> i'm not trying to be critical, i just wanted to be able to kick the tires, as it were.
16:04:17 <I440r> juri why would you need to write the rest in something else. you could do it easier, faster and BETTER in forth
16:04:28 <Quartus> If you want to stretch your mind and learn some new ways of thinking about programming, Forth is an excellent way to do that.
16:04:28 <virl> juri_, perhaps you can come back in a couple of years and then there is something here..
16:04:40 <I440r> juri code me a minimalish replacement for libncurses in 4k in c
16:04:44 <I440r> you got 2 days to do it
16:04:51 <juri_> i44: compatibility. optimizing a function thats written in C, for instance. ;)
16:04:56 <segher> my whole system (+ a lot of application code) normally compiles in 0.002
16:04:58 <I440r> thats what it took me to get the basics of my ncursesish code up and running
16:05:08 <I440r> and that was after 2 hours of man 5 terminfo
16:05:18 <docl> juri_: I *think* librx is what you're looking for. at the very least it should be interesting.
16:05:25 * juri_ googles.
16:05:27 <I440r> im against COMPILER optimizations 
16:05:32 <segher> ...well okay, the forth part is compiled at runtime.  way fast enough
16:05:35 <virl> and that's why Forth isn't in broad use not the standard.
16:05:36 <Quartus> juri_, there's nothing about not producing a .o file that will stop you from learning Forth.  Unless you've decided that the only way you'll learn Forth is if it can create a .o file, in which case the restriction and limitation is self-imposed.
16:05:47 <docl> juri_: rx-core.org
16:06:03 <I440r> juri put yourself on the development team of mozilla firefox or open office
16:06:08 <I440r> where your constantly doing rebuilds
16:06:15 <Quartus> I'm sure you know some Perl.  How is it at creating stand-alone linkable object files?
16:06:21 <I440r> and constantly taking coffee breaks waiting for it to finish building
16:06:45 <I440r> no more thumb twiddling waiting for compiles
16:07:07 <I440r> perl is interpreted only
16:07:07 <virl> Quartus, Perl is a scripting language
16:07:13 <I440r> virl so is forth
16:07:24 <I440r> but it has the added extra.... you can compile it to stand alone executables
16:07:25 <Quartus> Perl is a programming language that is commonly used to create scripts.
16:07:27 <I440r> COMPILE
16:07:32 <virl> I440r, not in my view.
16:07:41 <Quartus> It compiles to an internal p-code not unlike the way some Forths do.
16:07:52 <juri_> i440: been there, done that. ;)
16:07:55 <I440r> your not exactly speaking from any real knowledge base on the subject tho lol
16:08:03 <Quartus> I *believe* there's a p2c that'll turn Perl into C source that links with a large library.
16:08:20 <I440r> forth is as good a scripting language as ANY other you can find
16:08:25 <Quartus> Whether that is closer to the sort of thing juri_ thinks he wants, I can't say.
16:09:15 <virl> for me are scripting languages, languages for quick and dirty things and not much more.
16:09:29 <Quartus> Some very sophisticated and large-scale things have been done in Perl.
16:09:30 <I440r> forth does that well
16:09:49 <I440r> but unline traditional scripting languages its not limited to this
16:09:58 <I440r> in fact its not limited in any way ive seen at all
16:10:05 <I440r> forth has NO limitations
16:10:11 <I440r> other than the users ability 
16:10:28 <I440r> which all languages suffer from. specially c
16:10:28 <docl> I440r: that's the problem :)
16:10:31 <Quartus> well, I440r, unless you are hell-bent on producing a .o under linux, apparently. :)
16:10:39 * I440r points to the linux sources as an example :)
16:11:03 <juri_> so, theres no forth interpreter that has a debian package?
16:11:08 <Quartus> Gforth.
16:11:11 <I440r> gforth
16:11:14 <juri_> oh, duh. ;)
16:11:17 <I440r> and IMHO thats not a true forth
16:11:19 <madwork> I440r, I think that C++ would have made for worse linux sources than C.
16:11:25 <juri_> sorry, very newbie here. ;)
16:11:32 <segher> perl is compiled.  always.
16:11:36 <Quartus> I440r, you're not being helpful.  Gforth is a Standard Forth implementation written in C, works quite well.
16:11:43 <I440r> juri newbie is not discouraged here "_
16:11:57 <juri_> yea, but i hate reeking of it anyways. ;)
16:12:20 <virl> as I said that are the reasons
16:12:24 <I440r> quartus. the biggest PLUS forth has going for it is that its soruces are NOT obfuscated. c based forthalikes are very complex
16:12:24 <Quartus> I would imagine an obstacle to creating linkable .o files from Forth source is that Forth needs its (very tiny) VM.  
16:12:28 <I440r> forth is not complex
16:12:44 <Quartus> I440r, complex or not, gforth works quite nicely from the perspective of a developer wanting to learn/write Forth.
16:12:48 <virl> juri_, how do you like the forth sources?
16:13:02 <juri_> virl: havent read them? ;)
16:13:15 <virl> so even not a helloworld?
16:13:23 <juri_> nope. not a line.
16:13:40 <I440r> quartus i dont think so personally because learning the internals of the compiler is what makes learning forth easy
16:13:47 <I440r> you know forth you know the internals of your compiler
16:13:47 <virl> ok, then does RPN says something to you? juri_ 
16:13:56 <Quartus> I440r, it is entirely possible to learn Forth without delving into how the compiler works.
16:13:58 <juri_> yepyep.
16:14:02 <I440r> you dont know the internals of your compiler your working from a crippled base
16:14:19 <docl> hehe
16:14:21 <I440r> possible to learn it to a degree. 
16:14:29 <juri_> actually, i've done C compiler work. ;P
16:14:33 <virl> juri_, that's Forths syntax
16:14:56 <I440r> quartus - my readme talks about this
16:14:57 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke")
16:14:58 <juri_> yea, but i havent seen anything more complicated than whats in this channel. ;)
16:14:58 <virl> juri_, so no brackets like in C
16:15:03 <I440r> i spent years not really knowing forth
16:15:13 <I440r> i couold for instance use does> etc
16:15:16 <I440r> but didnt know how does> worked
16:15:20 <Quartus> I440r, you've got a newcomer on your hands.  He wants to learn Forth, and you tell him he can't until he learns how the entire compiler works?  Way to drive people away.
16:15:21 <docl> the channel is more active than usual today :)
16:15:23 <virl> juri_, what would you call complicated?
16:15:35 <I440r> quartus. not what i was saying lol
16:15:38 <juri_> virl: i write image recognition code in C. ;P
16:15:47 <I440r> but being able to look at the sources for + - / * and other primatives
16:15:52 <I440r> is a HUGE help
16:15:59 <Quartus> Then let the man download gforth, and look at and write some Forth code.  I betcha he can figure out what + does without having to decompile it.
16:16:06 <juri_> i was hoping to get a forth compiler, so i could look through the assembly output. ;)
16:16:18 <I440r> unless those primatives are buried insode some 40 page c function nested to the umpteenth level with if/and/but loops
16:16:21 <virl> juri_, the problem is that Forth is in a down-phase, so old ideas, old stupid concepts and so on which prevent a new rise
16:16:32 <juri_> Quartus: i might mention, the name is julia longtin. google it. ;P
16:16:44 <I440r> juri forth doesnt always create assembly output :)
16:16:46 <I440r> isforth doesnt
16:16:54 <juri_> i'm getting that. ;)
16:17:01 <Quartus> Fair enough, juri.  Rare we get any female representation, hope you'll forgive the confusion. :)
16:17:10 <docl> retroforth has a disassembler
16:17:13 <I440r> juri isforths kernel is an assembler source file. 
16:17:26 <I440r> juri is a female ?
16:17:28 <Quartus> Ok, brace yourself for the gforth-fast disassembly of +.
16:17:29 <Quartus> ( $40171C )  mov     eax , dword ptr 4 [esi]  \ $8B $46 $4
16:17:29 <Quartus> ( $40171F )  add     ebx , # 4  \ $83 $C3 $4
16:17:29 <Quartus> ( $401722 )  add     esi , # 4  \ $83 $C6 $4
16:17:29 <Quartus> ( $401725 )  add     ecx , eax  \ $1 $C1
16:17:32 <virl> it's relative easy displaying the code to what it assemble
16:17:34 <juri_> quartus: hapens all the time. ;)
16:17:36 <Quartus> Pretty straightforward.
16:17:36 <I440r> watch out for the undersexed geeks in here lol
16:18:09 <I440r> juri male OR female - your welcome in here :)
16:18:23 <juri_> well, i mostly reek of newbie. ;P
16:18:39 <I440r> juri you think we were all born experts ????? :)
16:18:40 <I440r> lol
16:18:58 <I440r> juri if you code assembler you should take a look at isforth
16:18:58 <madwork> MALE FEMALE OR WELCOME HERE !
16:19:01 <Quartus> juri, I googled -- didn't find the gallery of seductive photos I was hoping for! :)
16:19:18 <I440r> lol
16:19:24 * I440r thwaps quartus
16:19:27 <I440r> i saw her first!
16:19:28 <I440r> lol
16:19:37 <Quartus> In fact the first thing that comes up is some kind of diary entry from 2002.
16:19:42 <juri_> quartus: they'd be less seductive than you think. and my boyfriend might disagree with a page like that anyways. ;P
16:19:52 <Quartus> Well, send him in here, we'll sort him out.
16:19:53 <I440r> lol
16:20:05 <virl> oh my god.. and I thought I'm frustrated..
16:20:06 <I440r> quartus NOW who is scaring her away ?
16:20:07 <I440r> lol
16:20:10 <Quartus> hehehe.
16:20:25 <Quartus> So I440r, as you can see the gforth implementation isn't all that scary.
16:20:27 * juri_ kicks all of you.
16:20:33 <juri_> get to work on a compiler, damnit. :P
16:20:34 <Quartus> What's the isforth implementation of +?
16:20:38 <I440r> juri the other big plus for isforth is that im always here to answer questions
16:20:54 <juri_> thats true. but i cant apt-get it. so i'd have to create a package...
16:21:02 <I440r> juri i just had a JD... coding is not an option lol
16:21:14 <I440r> juri you cant create a package for isforth yet
16:21:35 <Quartus> juri_, as I mentioned above, creating a .o is slightly problematic (though probably can be overcome), because Forth code expects a small virtual-machine environment -- two stacks, a dataspace, a few other bits & pieces.
16:21:35 <juri_> i cant anyways. not a debian developer.
16:21:56 <I440r> juri download it as user. extract it - install the nasm assembler
16:21:58 <I440r> and your set
16:22:29 <I440r> juri you shud probably study a little bit about how forth threading works tho - then read the kernel sources
16:22:44 <madwork> juri_, I found FICL was a good starting point.
16:23:07 <madwork> It's written in C, and you can fairly easily follow what's going on in the code.
16:23:23 <I440r> yea nd unfortunatly i alienated the author a few years back
16:23:28 <I440r> or he would be a regular in here lol
16:23:40 <madwork> I440r, ur teh bastard
16:23:59 <I440r> }:)  <-- evil grin (tm)
16:24:05 * madwork alienates I440r with Forth-in-C interpreters.
16:24:17 <I440r> not ppssible
16:24:20 <I440r> they dont exist
16:24:26 <madwork> Yes they do.
16:24:37 * madwork lalalalalas
16:25:02 <virl> juri_, the problem is that Forth is in a down-phase, so old ideas, old stupid concepts and so on which prevent a new rise
16:25:18 <I440r> not so
16:25:22 <Quartus> Indeed, not so.
16:26:32 <virl> you two acknowledge that to your best, that it's so.
16:27:37 <Quartus> what?
16:28:03 <I440r> say again? in english ?
16:28:07 <I440r> lol
16:28:54 <docl> virl: what stupid concepts are you thinking of?
16:29:15 <I440r> actually, i think forth is in a up phase
16:29:21 <docl> direct memory access, stack manipulation, etc. is cool :)
16:29:24 <virl> docl, lots of words for example?
16:29:26 <I440r> and what CM is doing these days can only help that
16:29:40 <virl> docl, yeah, that's good.
16:30:00 <I440r> virl you want 20 hugely complex functions or 400 very very simple primatives ?
16:30:02 <I440r> pick one
16:30:17 <I440r> i know which one is easier to maintain
16:30:31 <docl> huge numbers of words... well there's fat forths and thin ones. I like thin, but that's a personal preference...
16:30:31 <I440r> try working as a consultant software engineer for 10 to 15 years before answering that tho
16:30:38 <virl> I think it's in down-phase with potential to move upwards or keep at the level and I try to push it into the uphase
16:31:34 <I440r> virl this channel had ONE user in it for about 2 years
16:31:36 <I440r> ME
16:31:37 <virl> I440r, you don't have a glue of what I think
16:31:42 <I440r> how many regulars are there in here ?
16:31:56 <juri_> i'll be here for a bit. ;)
16:32:05 <I440r> juri stay a while
16:32:08 <I440r> stay FOREVER !!!!
16:32:23 <I440r> anyone know what game thats from ??? :)
16:32:26 <docl> juri_: darn, there must be a reason we don't have any girls here. I wonder why...
16:32:30 <juri_> i doubt that, since i cant creat .obj files. ;P
16:32:44 <I440r> juri learn forth and you will learn thats not a bad thing :)
16:32:53 <juri_> docl: yea, i get that alot. tho not quite as bad as these two yahoos. ;P
16:32:55 <I440r> juri i challenge you to learn forth :)
16:32:59 <docl> lol
16:33:11 <I440r> lets see if a mere GIRL can learn forth (like say.. eliz rather? :) hehe
16:33:19 <juri_> i440 spent too much time alone in this channel. ;P
16:33:20 <docl> retroforth is a Real Man's forth :P
16:33:51 <I440r> juri im not hitting on you, i dont think ill get sekz with you any time soon... i would genuinly like you to learn forth tho
16:33:59 <I440r> that would make you ONE MORE convert
16:34:01 <I440r> always a plus
16:34:52 <virl> I440r, don't talk like a bunch of lisp idiots
16:35:19 <juri_> oh god, lisp people are worse?
16:35:19 <Quartus> I440r, an old c64 adventure dealie.  Incredible Mission or something.
16:35:25 * juri_ crosses #lisp off of the list.
16:35:33 <I440r> impossible mission
16:35:41 <I440r> but you were close ennuff :)
16:35:44 <Quartus> Hey, am I a yahoo?  Sorry.  Was only teasing ya, juri_. :)
16:35:49 <Quartus> Now I440r, he's a yahoo.
16:35:50 <madwork> I440r, I was about to answer. I'm teh C64 master.
16:35:51 <I440r> it was a platform type game
16:35:57 <madwork> Destroy him my robots!
16:36:07 <I440r> im a rednek yahoo with a gun
16:36:09 <madwork> AAAAaaaaaaaAAAAAaaaaah...
16:36:13 <I440r> errr make that 5 or 6 guns
16:36:15 <Quartus> well, yeah.
16:36:18 <virl> juri_, well they tend to be more 'leet' 
16:36:19 <madwork> BZZZzzZZzzzzzZZzZzZ
16:36:22 <Quartus> madwork, that sounds like Forbidden Forest to me.
16:36:40 <I440r> no he has the sound effects right heh
16:36:41 <madwork> "Destroy him my robots" sounds like Forbidden Forest?
16:36:47 <Quartus> No.
16:36:49 <I440r> but it was more a gadzzzzztssss
16:36:50 <Quartus> The other part.
16:37:07 <madwork> I440r, there's some random variation in the bzzzz.
16:37:14 <I440r> yea
16:37:21 <madwork> Forbidden Forest only has a few sound effects, and some music.
16:37:24 <I440r> and the voice was all BIT BANGED !!!!
16:37:30 <I440r> that was freeking amazing lol
16:37:37 <madwork> Blazin' Forth on the C64 is cool.
16:37:44 <madwork> And yea, IM was way ahead of its time.
16:37:47 <madwork> Still a great game.
16:38:06 <I440r> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_Mission
16:38:55 <madwork> Oh no!
16:38:58 <madwork> I just had a crazy idea.
16:39:12 <I440r> recode it for linux ?
16:39:13 <I440r> hehe
16:39:15 <madwork> Do a remake of Impossible Mission, but where you hack the terminals, doors, elevator, and robots in Forth code. :D
16:39:46 <madwork> Learn Forth, or DIE!
16:39:56 <Quiznos> strings on PBS tonight
16:40:20 <Quartus> madwork, I thought maybe you were doing the music for FF there.
16:40:24 <Raystm2> Howdy from Tejas me amigos. What a convo today.
16:40:39 <I440r> OOOHHHH they might do a DS version of the game@!
16:40:44 <I440r> now THAT ill buy :)
16:40:47 <madwork> Quartus, no, sorry. That is some great music though.
16:41:07 <madwork> Hi Ray.
16:41:11 <madwork> A DS version of IM?
16:41:15 <Raystm2> Hi madwork
16:41:24 <I440r> Raystm2, when i get back to san antonio im gona hafta hunt you down :)
16:41:43 <virl> I440r, crazy?
16:41:50 <I440r> me ?
16:41:52 <I440r> dont be silly
16:41:55 <virl> yep.
16:41:56 <I440r> *twitch*
16:42:07 <virl> Raystm2, codes in Forth
16:42:18 <Quiznos> so, what have i missed?
16:42:22 <I440r> yea and he lives close(ish) to me
16:42:25 <I440r> tho im not in tx atm
16:42:56 <I440r> not much :)
16:42:58 <virl> Raystm2, did you put the best hw for cf on your site?
16:43:24 <madwork> http://www.digitpress.com/dpsoundz/destroyhimrobots.wav
16:43:50 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@ppp-70-248-33-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
16:43:55 <madwork> http://members.tripod.com/~impossible_mission/voice.wav
16:44:17 <docl> virl: hunt doesn't necessarily imply with a gun :P
16:44:58 <Raystm2_> I440r where are you now?
16:45:02 <Raystm2_> dang it I split there for a sec...
16:45:47 <I440r> im in south carolina 
16:45:51 <I440r> on a contract
16:45:55 <Raystm2_> ok
16:46:00 <Raystm2_> didn't know that :)
16:46:06 <Raystm2_> when do you return?
16:46:17 <Raystm2_> I ready to party down 6th
16:46:32 <Raystm2_> oh wait that's Austin
16:46:45 <Raystm2_> I'm ready to party down the Riverwalk.
16:46:56 <Raystm2_> there thats San Antonio
16:50:32 --- quit: Raystm2 (Nick collision from services.)
16:50:46 <virl> is there an c64 image of this game?
16:51:02 <virl> (so I could feed it into an emulator)
16:51:08 * juri_ ponders the logistics of a forth compiler.
16:51:30 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2
16:51:30 <virl> logistics?
16:52:38 <Quiznos> ram cpu crt are the logistics
16:52:41 <docl> well, technically it's all compiled as soon as you press return
16:53:43 <docl> each word is looked up in the dictionary and the corresponding address is compiled into the memory sequence that becomes the new word.
16:54:03 <docl> madwork: http://forthworks.com/if.f
16:54:10 <docl> it's a bit dated
16:54:28 <juri_> yea, i'm thinking something similar to a snapshot of things after grammar checking, before interpretation. like you just hit enter on the file..
16:55:08 * docl thinks a code logger would be good, so you don't lose stuff written in interactive mode.
16:55:14 <Quartus> juri_, each space-delimited word is dealt with in turn.  First it's looked for in the Forth dictionary; if found, it's executed.  If not found, it's checked to see if it's a literal value; if it is, it goes on the data stack.  If it isn't, you get an error.
16:55:57 <Quartus> : is a word that puts the Forth system into compilation mode.  Subsequent words are compiled into code, rather than executed.
16:56:18 <Quartus> It's a bit more subtle than that, but that's the bird's-eye view.
16:57:26 <I440r> Raystm2, i dont know when the contract finishes
16:57:30 <I440r> not too soon i hope lol
16:57:39 <Raystm2> and Birdseye makes great frozen peas
16:58:03 <I440r> i love peas !!!
16:58:22 <Raystm2> I440r: well Mark, you let me know when you get back. I'm looking forward to tossing a couple back with ya, bro.
16:58:30 <I440r> :)
16:58:37 <I440r> make mine a JD hehe
16:59:05 <I440r> i dont drink beer
16:59:11 <I440r> puh.. puh...
16:59:11 * Raystm2 only drinks on special occasions, make mine a Drambuie and Shiner chaser.
16:59:50 <I440r> :)
17:00:10 <juri_> from what i see, the : command is more like a macro add. i have something similar in tintin++.
17:00:28 <juri_> it defines a function.
17:00:31 <I440r> juri thats a good start :)
17:00:52 <I440r> : xyz lots of forth code goes here ;
17:01:05 <juri_> in that line the ; means?
17:01:06 <I440r> xyz  <-- you can now test xyz interactivly
17:01:11 --- part: Quiznos left #forth
17:01:12 <docl> yeah words are functions/methods/subroutines/processes/etc...
17:01:14 <I440r> it terminates the definition
17:01:17 --- join: Quiznos (i=1000@69-168-231-199.bflony.adelphia.net) joined #forth
17:01:18 <juri_> i'm reading through a beginners guide..
17:01:22 <I440r> cool
17:01:30 <I440r> google "starting forth"
17:01:39 <juri_> so, its not quite compiler, any more than my #function {} in tintin++.
17:01:41 <I440r> its alot dated now but its still a damned good place to start
17:01:47 <Quartus> tintin++?
17:01:57 <juri_> quartus: my "real" scripting engine.
17:02:13 <docl> mud client, right?
17:02:32 <Quartus> Different Forths employ different compiliation techniques.  Some generate optimized native code, some generate threaded lists of addresses, some generate tokens or bytecode.
17:02:33 <juri_> code does not start at the top, and go to the bottom. the engine instead memorizes all the functions, and what its supposed to react to, then searches in a big loop. very forth like, in that respect.
17:02:37 <juri_> yepyep.
17:02:40 <I440r> juri forth is compiled - but the interpreter is what does the compiling
17:03:08 <I440r> thats more like MIRC scripting :)
17:03:19 <docl> cool, we have lots of mudders here.
17:03:44 <juri_> tintin rules. and if it dosent, i'll make it rule. ;)
17:03:48 <I440r> doing a mud server in isforth was on my todo list from day 1
17:03:51 <Quartus> Forth doesn't work in a big circular event loop, if I follow what you're saying.
17:03:59 <I440r> juri thats the right attitude :)
17:04:08 <I440r> we do these things NOT because they are easy....
17:04:46 <juri_> quartus: agreed, but thats due to its more programmatical nature. you're responding to a keyboard/disk. i'm responding to a stream or streams of mud data.
17:05:10 <Quartus> Ok.  But Forth is definitely a procedural language, linear, quite straightforward that way.
17:05:19 <juri_> the keyboard is the same, but forth pays attention to mass storage.
17:06:04 <juri_> yea. you have to *write* the linear stuff into tintin. its just not there. #action {blah} {if {blahhasbeenrun == 0 } { bleh } }
17:06:05 <docl> yeah, forth is very direct-memory oriented
17:06:16 <Quartus> You have to write it into Forth, too.
17:06:27 <juri_> tintin uses shell style variables, and c style syntax.
17:07:00 <I440r> bill o has a total MORON on his show 
17:07:31 <docl> to use streams you generally have to deal with buffers. perhaps this is why I have so much trouble with thinkinf of forth as a scripting language.
17:07:47 <docl> shell style variables are awesome
17:07:48 <I440r> i have a theory as to why they call it the fox news network too
17:07:59 <I440r> Ann Coulter  <----- !!!!!
17:08:12 <juri_> tintin uses single lines as buffers. a single line is the buffer, when someone hits return.
17:09:14 * docl hasn't kept in touch with "mainstream" conservative politics, so has barely a clue who that is. (isn't mainstream conservative an oxymoron?)
17:09:31 <juri_> can someone point me to a 'large' forth program, so i can read through it?
17:09:51 <I440r> docl google ann coulter she has a body to die for, a brain that can kill and the balls to use both
17:10:04 <I440r> and the liberals hate her
17:10:07 <docl> http://retroforth.org/repos/902/modules/edit
17:10:20 <I440r> i have a book of hers that i got at 25% off because some moron wrote "slut" on it
17:10:36 <I440r> which she isnt
17:10:41 <Raystm2> juri_ do you Chess, cuz I got a forth chess client...
17:10:41 <Quartus> juri, there's a tetris implementation with gforth, along with a few other things, that might be educational.
17:10:55 <Quartus> Raystm2, you've got a forth chess client written in Bizzaro-Forth. She's new.
17:11:01 <juri_> tetris sounds like more fun to dissassemble. ;)
17:11:08 <Raystm2> its not bizzaro it  Gforth.
17:11:16 <Quartus> Oh. Thought it was colorForth. i stand corrected. :)
17:11:18 <Raystm2> but thanks :)(
17:11:24 <Quartus> heh
17:11:36 <Raystm2> I'm not uni-forth centric as you may have thought.
17:11:46 <I440r> colorforth is weird
17:11:49 <Quartus> I think you're faking all this liberalism.
17:11:52 <I440r> i would say its not truely forth too
17:11:59 <I440r> its forth-ng mayb
17:12:00 <I440r> e
17:12:05 * Raystm2 is doing one in retro as we speak.
17:12:26 <I440r> wheres my isforth chess :P
17:12:39 <Raystm2> after retro, I promissed crc first.
17:12:46 <I440r> :)
17:12:56 <Raystm2> Quartus, I'm giveing forth engines away...
17:13:05 <Quartus> juri_, tt.fs in the gforth distro, only 370 lines long but a start.
17:13:11 <Raystm2> dang it I ment chess engines
17:13:32 <Raystm2> B18 Chess is 999 lines long.
17:13:43 <Raystm2> cuz if you can do it in 1000...
17:13:46 <Quartus> I was looking at the colorForth postings on my wiki today. They look like the second coming of the VIC-20. :)
17:13:53 <Raystm2> hahahah
17:14:01 <Raystm2> the pappavic 20
17:14:22 <Quartus> hehehe
17:14:36 <I440r> i liked the vic-20 hehe
17:14:42 <I440r> tho the c64 was way better
17:14:43 <Raystm2> no the pappavic 50 more like it.
17:15:06 <docl> the block editor is for editing memory blocks of ascii text. it used to be 8*64, but we're currently experimenting with other layouts.
17:15:20 <Raystm2> yikes /me is actually cutting someone down. You guys are a bad influenza
17:16:56 <docl> right now it's 16*32 in two pages, so you tend to write better factored and indented code.
17:17:04 <virl> Raystm2, which hardware loves cf?
17:17:38 <Raystm2> "All of my hardware loves colorforth." /end-commercial
17:18:17 <Raystm2> virl I got it running on a couple generic P2's and a Compaq P4 2.8 gig blah blah blah with all of the 
17:18:17 * juri_ tries to run the bloody thing.
17:18:39 <Quiznos> i'm sick of compiled code as applied to non-forth coding
17:18:47 <Quiznos> auto tools are really pissing me off
17:18:47 <Raystm2> things most machines need cards for as controllers on the mobo.
17:19:18 <Quiznos> i'm trying to get autoconf to compile a package that can use javascript and ./configre wont
17:19:33 <Quiznos> i think i got it beat tho
17:19:52 <Quiznos> is there a c to forth translator?
17:20:09 <virl> wah, translators...
17:20:33 <juri_> c to forth? i could, but no. ;P
17:20:45 <I440r> juri_, tries to run what ?
17:20:49 <Quiznos> it doesnt have to be perfect, it needs to be a helper
17:20:49 <virl> C -> Forth oh man, that would look terrible.
17:21:10 <juri_> i44: i'll figgure it out. ;P
17:21:11 <docl> http://rx-core.org/librx.tar.gz
17:21:16 <I440r> :)
17:21:17 <I440r> ok
17:21:43 <Raystm2> the core babies, the rx-core for c coders, that link that docl put up.
17:21:43 <virl> I even hate those gui edit things which produce an output src file
17:22:00 <Quartus> PoppaVIC-64, Raystm2.
17:22:05 <Quartus> er, sorr.  PoppaVIC-46.
17:23:20 <I440r> build a moat the length of the mexican border. use the dirt to raise the levis in new orleans. put the florida aligatos in the moat
17:23:33 <Raystm2> thanks Quartus :)
17:23:40 <Raystm2> you know more about it then I.
17:23:57 <Quartus> That's all I know. It's too much.
17:24:12 <Raystm2> juri_ I'm just slightly less newb to forth then you. but you have me beat in C
17:24:12 --- join: k4jcw (n=jcw@adsl-065-006-151-062.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) joined #forth
17:24:25 <k4jcw> 'ello.
17:24:42 <Raystm2> ( crickets) 
17:24:46 <Raystm2> Hey k4jcw :)
17:24:54 <Quartus> Hey k4jcw.
17:25:32 <k4jcw> What's the most accepted commenting notation to indicate the next input stream token is consumed?  Like for 'variable'? 
17:26:09 <I440r> i dont think there is one
17:26:23 <Raystm2> There will be one before this convo ends...
17:26:45 <I440r> :)
17:26:56 <I440r> ( eats )  <--- :)
17:27:03 <I440r> ( hungry ) :)
17:27:34 * Raystm2 is looking at Nan with eyes that say, I'm too lame to feed myself. :)
17:28:37 <k4jcw> Not-a-number?
17:28:50 <Raystm2> Oh she's a number alright lol
17:28:56 <k4jcw> pictures!
17:29:14 <Raystm2> hahaha MINE :)
17:29:42 <Raystm2> lets see, numbers to describe Nanette... 
17:29:45 <Raystm2> 1 in my book
17:29:54 <Raystm2> 11 out of 10 in bed...
17:30:05 <Raystm2> and break the nob off.
17:30:07 --- join: crc (n=crc@pdpc/supporter/active/crc) joined #forth
17:30:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
17:30:16 <Raystm2> CRC!!!
17:32:18 <virl> Raystm2, so what's the exact config of the boxes? which chips do the mobos have?
17:32:56 <Raystm2> virl, the generics are twins. they have on board... lets see if I can remember here....
17:33:31 <Quartus> k4jcw, I use      VARIABLE <name>
17:33:48 <Quartus> In something typeset, I'd say   VARIABLE name    where name was italicized.
17:34:19 <Raystm2> virl: I'll crack open a box here, give a sec.
17:34:21 <Quartus> In a stack diagram, I use      VARIABLE ( "<name>" -- )
17:34:49 <virl> does anybody know pci graphics card which has a full datasheet?
17:35:10 <k4jcw> hm.  I think 'VARIABLE <name> ( -- )' is what I'll use.   In my Forth "xxx" means string, which is a native type.
17:36:07 <virl> was/is there any graphics card which is good documented?
17:36:09 <Quartus> I think you'd be clearer to put <name> inside the stack diagram somehow, to indicate that this is something the word expects and consumed. 
17:36:13 <Quartus> er, consumes.
17:36:31 <vatic> virl: aren't the ATIs documented?
17:37:33 <Raystm2> virl: /me getting out a screwdriver... :)
17:37:33 <k4jcw> Yea, except variable isn't consuming a stack item, it's consuming an input stream item.
17:37:50 <Quartus> Agreed.  But that's the conventional spot.
17:38:00 <k4jcw> hmm.
17:38:09 <k4jcw> I'll try it a couple ways.  You've given me some good suggestions.
17:38:26 <virl> I have here an old Diamond Stealth 64 seems not to have any docs about it.
17:38:28 <virl> damned
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17:38:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
17:40:43 <Raystm2> virl: I'm going to post the list of componants on #c4th for the internet-log.
17:40:52 <Raystm2> my reasons are two-fold.
17:40:54 <Raystm2> :)
17:41:03 <k4jcw> What is #c4th for?
17:41:06 <Raystm2> on cuz nobody else here cares
17:41:09 <Raystm2> colorforth
17:41:10 <vatic> virl: https://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894&task=knowledge&folderID=27
17:41:22 <k4jcw> ugh.  I tried colorforth a couple times.  No way.
17:41:27 <Raystm2> 2 because I wanna beable to look it up, next time.
17:41:33 <Raystm2> hehe
17:41:57 <Raystm2> Yes! more colorforth for me. :) lol
17:42:26 <Raystm2> Look ya'll, I luv ya and stuff, but don't be hogging all the colorforth.
17:42:49 <Raystm2> In not good enough at anything else so I NEED this niche, Capice?
17:42:50 <k4jcw> colourforth, if you're on the wrong side of the pond.
17:42:58 <Raystm2> :)
17:43:06 <virl> vatic, that are drivers?
17:43:36 <Raystm2> virl, I'll send you the parts list link when I'm finished.
17:44:36 <vatic> virl: trying  to find the info. The older diamond cards have FLOSS drivers for Xfree...
17:47:30 <vatic> virl: you seen this? http://www.xfree.org/current/manindex4.html
17:47:34 <virl> vatic, 1) FLOSS? 2) I don't need drivers
17:50:07 <vatic> virl: your don't think the driver header files would tell you something  about the card?
17:54:14 <virl> ehm, sry. today I'm confused
17:59:50 <I440r> how many democrats does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
17:59:59 <I440r> it doesnt matter, they will never see the light anyway!
18:00:35 <k4jcw> That's also true for republicans.
18:00:52 <k4jcw> So vote libertarian.
18:06:56 <I440r> well i gtg zzz
18:06:58 <I440r> nite ppl
18:07:01 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
18:10:41 * docl will trade a libertarian vote in a red state for a republican one in a swing state.
18:11:35 <k4jcw> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/24/MNGIHK4CSQ1.DTL
18:14:43 <docl> scary
18:15:07 <docl> but that would be the way to change it. let the states make their own minds up.
18:21:28 <Quiznos> wow ##political-forth
18:21:32 <Quiznos> cool
18:28:25 <docl> :)
18:42:52 <juri_> docl: hmm. i might take you up on that. this is arkansas. what state are you in?
18:43:45 <Quartus> k4jcw, Canadians use 'colour' as well. :)
18:44:00 <k4jcw> Only in Quebec though, right?
18:44:38 <Quartus> Pretty much the inverse of that, actually.
18:45:09 <Quartus> English in the rest of the country, Quebecois there. 
18:50:46 <docl> idaho
18:52:52 --- quit: ayrnieu (Remote closed the connection)
18:54:03 <juri_> well, in two years, keep in touch ;P
18:54:23 <docl> ok :)
18:58:14 <docl> last time I tried this the guy didn't make it to the polls, so I wound up voting libertarian for free.
19:04:51 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection)
19:04:53 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-224-132.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
19:20:22 <Raystm2> docl: Idaho? You the one selling your vote. You da ho. :)
19:21:26 <docl> ya know? funny thing is, noone in ID thinks of that joke. :)
19:22:23 <docl> I guess you get to using a word in an everyday basis and it's easy enough to remember that you don't think of puns
19:24:23 * docl would almost prefer libertarian. provided they didn't legalize drugs and premarital sex, of course.
19:25:33 <k4jcw> One or the other is OK, just not both?
19:27:21 <Quartus> It's the premarital drugs you really want to worry about.
19:31:57 <juri_> i want them to illegalize extramarital affairs.
19:32:18 <juri_> my sister's evil, and should be punished somehow, for the trail of ruined lives she leaves behind. :/
19:32:41 <k4jcw> You could always shatter her kneecaps with a baseball bat.
19:32:41 <Quartus> A homewrecker?
19:33:19 <juri_> certainly. i concider her true evil. :/
19:33:26 <docl> darn
19:33:34 <juri_> "live for pleasure". :/
19:33:40 <Quartus> The married men she commits her evil on are presumably willing victims in the process.
19:34:24 <docl> Quartus: that's no excuse. for either of them.
19:34:48 <docl> actually, I'm willing to see anyone as a victim of their own psychological problems.
19:35:00 --- quit: virsys (Remote closed the connection)
19:35:12 <juri_> concidering she married the last two guys she was cheating with... and cheated on them..
19:35:22 <juri_> and she's marrying another one...
19:35:41 <juri_> and she's 25. :/
19:35:46 <k4jcw> Maybe you should tell him about her past.
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19:36:58 <juri_> i have. they dont listen. i'm an older overweight programmer. i dont have her cuteness to sway, so they just ignore me. :/
19:37:12 <docl> guys are generally suckers when a hot woman is involved. they mistake attraction for desire.
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19:38:19 <madgarden> juri_, you need pictures.
19:38:27 <madgarden> For blackmail.
19:38:35 <madgarden> Hire a PI or something.
19:38:54 <juri_> i actually took some. her boyfriend broke in, stole a laptop, and took my memory card from my camera.
19:39:01 <juri_> she's great at getting boys to do whatever.
19:39:38 <madgarden> Gotta get the data online.
19:39:51 <juri_> the laptop was borrowed from an employer who "didnt want to get involved", so i couldnt even press charges.
19:40:38 <k4jcw> Isn't the a website for this kind of thing?
19:41:44 <k4jcw> http://dontdatehimgirl.com/   There's a version of this for guys, too.
19:42:27 <juri_> flash is evil. ;)
19:42:56 <k4jcw> Yea, I like it too.
19:45:12 <Quartus> docl, not offering it as an excuse, just saying any blame is shared.
19:45:24 <docl> yeah true
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20:30:21 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.71 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
20:55:34 * juri_ learns some forth.
20:58:44 <docl> cool, how's it coming?
20:59:50 <k4jcw> There is a contingent of non-Forth programmers that hang out in #forth?
21:00:21 <juri_> just me, far as i know.
21:00:49 <juri_> i've alwys concidered myself a 'computer linguist', so not having some forth knowlege just sounds kinda wrong.
21:00:54 <docl> k4jcw: actually there are quite a few
21:01:02 <juri_> i suppose eventually, i'll learn elisp. ;)
21:01:20 <k4jcw> Sort me, too.  I can program in Forth, but I'm not anywhere near as fluent as I am in C.  
21:02:00 <k4jcw> Which really bugs me, in some ways.  I've been a Forth evangelizer for years, but written very few complete and useful programs.
21:02:00 <docl> yeah, forth and lisp are easy, yet not very many people know them (relatively speaking).
21:02:34 <k4jcw> Mostly because I'm more of an embedded systems person, and the most of the free embedded Forths really suck rocks.
21:03:02 <k4jcw> And I learn *so* much better when I'm getting paid by a client.
21:03:31 <docl> helps keep your focus, doesn't it?
21:03:43 * docl has never been paid to program
21:03:51 <k4jcw> You should try it some time.
21:03:55 <k4jcw> You can buy more beer.
21:04:29 <juri_> programming without application dosent make for good technologies. ;)
21:05:25 <docl> yeah. well, there's lots of little apps in forth. they all work in the forth they were written for, and are about 1 screen long. :)
21:05:54 <juri_> its a powerful language. thats why i'm here. ;)
21:05:58 <k4jcw> I still have to think too hard about what's on the stack when and where.
21:06:26 <docl> yeah. the real trick is to keep 3 or less elements at all times.
21:06:49 <docl> (elements in active use that is. in nested loops you can let it get longer.)
21:07:17 <juri_> i wonder what my image recognition code would look like in forth...
21:07:29 <k4jcw> When I worked at Hayes Microcomputer, I rewrote the command interpreter for the Optima Business Class modem.  It's 8051 assembly at it's best.  We played every trick in the book to make V.42 work on that 44Mhz processor.  At one time, we were looking at switch processors, and I was pushing a Forth CPU.
21:07:48 <k4jcw> I took the time to write the command interpreter and some of the basic commands in Forth to demo it.
21:07:50 <k4jcw> I had no takers.
21:08:23 <k4jcw> juri_,  what sort of images does your image recognizer recognize?
21:08:51 <juri_> k4jcw: its "find like image" code. but i'm trying to convert the technology into 3d interpolation.
21:09:18 <k4jcw> Ah.  I wrote a primitive kaptcha cracker in Perl.
21:09:38 <juri_> this could be perverted that way. ;)
21:10:14 <k4jcw> http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=124732
21:10:16 * docl has no clue about image manipulation
21:11:03 <k4jcw> Me neither, beyond simple 2D stuff.
21:11:12 <k4jcw> I never could make the wire-frame box spin.
21:11:52 <juri_> heh. i was doing 3d wireframe stuff.. 15 years ago. ;)
21:12:09 <Quartus> Over the years I've done production code in Forth, APL, Rexx, QBasic, compiled .BAT files (really), and a variety of other things. Trick is not to ask permission. :)
21:12:13 <juri_> wrote my own raytracer, with 'ray-cacheing' back in 92.
21:14:36 <juri_> i got out of image work, when 3d hardware accelerators came out. they were just disgusting, compared to what my fixed-frame stuff looked like.
21:14:51 <k4jcw> Back when I was a young whippersnapper, and CDC Cyber 6600's were state of the art, I learned APL.  Luckily, I have managed to purge that, and free those brain cells for important things.
21:14:53 <k4jcw> Like pr0n.
21:15:55 <juri_> technology is starting to get to the point where i can work in realtime. its exciting. ;)
21:16:01 <Quartus> That's what the P in APL stands for, k4jcw.
21:16:08 <k4jcw> heh
21:16:35 <k4jcw> I was wondering the other day if 'Quartus' had anything to do with the Quartus Forth for Palms.
21:16:56 <k4jcw> And why hasn't anyone come up with the Psalm Pilot for the religious right?
21:18:27 <docl> or a napalm pilot for the nonreligious right
21:19:01 <k4jcw> Seems like they're the ones dropping bombs all over Iraq.
21:19:09 <k4jcw> Well, back when we had a good bomb run.
21:25:18 <Quartus> k4jcw -- yes, that's me.
21:29:31 <Quartus> Since... 1997, I think. :)
21:45:32 <Raystm2> From Peter Knaggs Thesis http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/staff/pknaggs/thesis/    C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language.
21:45:32 <Raystm2> Forth makes you think that you're the world's greatest programmer.
21:49:39 <juri_> but what if you already think you're the worlds greatest programmer? ;)
21:50:02 <Quartus> Then nothing happens. :)
21:58:57 <docl> just so long as you don't try to convince everyone else of it, because they all know they are better :)
22:04:19 <Quartus> Some people who get into Forth have a kind of religious epiphany when they suddenly understand it. I've seen something similar in OO converts, but it's usually not as profound; Forth's minimalist approach seems to amplify the effect.  Some of these people go on to preach about Forth, ramble on about Zen, and it scares people. :)
22:07:03 <Quartus> I think Ting did no favours by so ardently associating Forth with eastern mysticism.
22:07:18 <docl> Who's Ting?
22:08:11 <Quartus> He was (still is) a vocal Forth proponent from around the time of Forth 83.
22:08:28 * docl googles
22:09:28 <Quartus> www.offete.com
22:09:56 <docl> yeah mixing spiritualistic stuff with technical can be distracting
22:10:30 <Quartus> Chuck Moore has a wonderful plan for your life.
22:12:33 <Raystm2> simprify
22:12:58 <docl> on the other hand, to some extent the spiritual experience is what draws many us to it.
22:13:31 <Quartus> There are still people today who post on comp.lang.forth putting forward that "Forth is meant to be <fill in the blank>", usually some combination of pure, simple, efficient, something like that.  E. Rather has stepped in on occasion to put it point blank that Forth was intended to be no such things, it was Chuck's toolkit, successively refined.  Didn't have any high and mighty principles from which it was descended
22:13:54 <docl> the subconscious uses stacks, pointers, and word definitions.
22:14:11 <Raystm2> Ohmmmm money commmme frommm progammmming
22:14:18 <Quartus> Iterated pragmatism, which in and of itself is a beautiful thing.
22:14:43 <Raystm2> Scratch that itch.
22:14:54 <Quartus> Raystm2, there are females present.
22:14:56 <docl> I think the fact is forth makes the similarity of the computer and the subconscious more easily discerned, which can be disturbing or enlightening
22:15:13 <Quartus> Probably that's the mental process, yes.
22:15:30 <Quartus> It amazes some people with experience in other languages that an entire compiler can be so simple.
22:15:42 <Raystm2> Females scratch itches. Itche knee chi one.
22:16:27 <Raystm2> Or held in one mind
22:16:39 <docl> perhaps c provides some degree of psychological comfort by hiding the similarities.
22:16:53 <Raystm2> That you can know what all of the software on your machine does, cuz you did it.
22:18:02 <Raystm2> If you knew as much about forth as you do all of computing... It was the only language... You would still beable to do all that is being done with computing today. No?
22:19:01 <docl> Raystm2: do you honestly want to know all there is to know about computing?
22:19:12 <Raystm2> No, not possible, I assume.
22:19:15 <Quartus> I don't know, docl.  By comparison, C is considerably complex.  I think the sheer complexity of the thing makes people who learn it extraordinarily proud on some level.  There's a preponderance of C 'language lawyers' who are all too happy to expound on the details of the language specification.
22:19:40 <Raystm2> BUT you'd still chat and watch movies and compose and decompose and ...
22:19:44 <docl> Quartus: that's the thing, it's reduced to something too complex to identify with, but not too complex to learn
22:20:20 <docl> Raystm2: imagine for a second that it is possible. do you want this knowledge? or would it drive you mad?
22:22:52 <Raystm2> There is just a very few fundemental tasks that a computing machine is physically capable of. I think that it could be held in one head. But if your asking would I want to know all of the code writen to do all of the things?? That might not be necessary in a group of coders.
22:23:24 <docl> what if every library on your whole computer was 8 lines or so long... would people be as comfortable with that as they are with the hugely bloated systems that are currently used?
22:24:43 <Raystm2> in colorforth it only takes a couple blocks to describe many of the drivers, and many of those blocks are only 8 word definitions... so yes.
22:25:11 <Quartus> docl, not a whole lot of useful libraries are 8 lines long. :)
22:26:04 <Raystm2> really, displaying anything is just a format of dump, I think.
22:27:00 <Raystm2> You want an editor, reformat your dump progy till it has all the bells and whistles, but i guarentee you can live with less then what you have, and accomplish much.
22:30:58 <docl> well, 16 lines with 32 cols works. you can do a lot in a screenful of forth.
22:32:39 <docl> hypothesis: people want the bells and whistles to separate their psyche from the computer's. getting too close creates a psychological discomfort, which the enlightenment feeling is the response to.
22:33:57 <docl> sleep dep does something too. goodnight folks :)
22:34:19 <Quartus> Goodnight.
22:34:45 <Raystm2> :)
22:35:04 <Quartus> I think, and of course this is a layman's guess, that it might have something to do with being able to bring linguistic thinking to bear directly, once Forth 'clicks' in.  Being able to leverage an existing well-developed skillset.
22:37:34 <Quartus> I remember finding the apple-counting example in Thinking Forth quite eye-opening (to avoid using the 'enlightning' word). :)
23:15:01 <AI_coder> Does anyone know if forth compiles to motorola m68k?
23:15:44 <Quartus> Some do.  Quartus Forth does.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.25