00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.22
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04:16:44 <Quiznos> anyone doin work with functional args in forth?
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06:39:39 <Quiznos> mornin
06:40:03 <I440r> hi
06:40:30 <PoppaVic> Howdy
06:40:59 <PoppaVic> Boy, the reverse-logic of assert() makes me nuts ;-/
06:44:32 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: any progress?
06:48:10 <I440r> what reverse logic
06:48:49 <PoppaVic> I usually write a mere runtime if( ...) - with assert() I have to remind myself we'll abort on true
06:48:54 <Quiznos> PoppaVic on what?
06:49:20 <PoppaVic> Quiznos: well, you were all wound up the other day on that source, the notes, and whatnot.
06:49:47 <Quiznos> i've read the page
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07:11:37 <Quiznos> tata
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11:03:02 <crc> good afternoon
11:04:04 <Quiznos> C!
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11:18:46 <warpzero> CYCLIC REDUNDANCY CHECK
11:32:31 <I440r> ?
11:34:16 <I440r> ok, anyone wanna check out 1.21b and tell me if the command history works right ?
11:34:27 <I440r> and if cursor down from within the debugger moves a green cursor ?
11:34:31 <Quartus> what was poppavic on about?  assert() trips on false, not true.
11:35:15 <tathi> who knows?
11:37:46 <Quartus> Nobody, seems likely. :)
11:41:40 <Quiznos> Quartus he wanted reversed-action
11:41:55 <Quiznos> with an if-guard to reverse assert's action
11:42:47 <crc> I440r: works for me now
11:43:52 <Quartus> Quiznos, that makes no sense whatsoever, but that's to be expected.
11:44:05 <Quiznos> hey, i dont make this stuff up
11:44:15 <Quiznos> i dont make the news, i just report it
11:44:25 <I440r> cool
11:44:34 <I440r> both command history and the debugger ?
11:45:16 <Quiznos> so, if i name my forth `I441s' does that mean that mine's better than "yours"? :)-
11:45:20 <Quartus> I'm not even clear on what an "if-guard" is.
11:45:32 <Quiznos> if( bool) statements;
11:45:38 <crc> I440r: yes
11:45:48 <Quartus> More PoppaVic terminoligification?
11:45:50 <Quiznos> that's the technical name of that dohicky
11:46:00 <Quiznos> no. it's a real computer science term
11:46:00 <I440r> cool
11:46:13 <Quiznos> aka guarded statements
11:46:15 <Quartus> So, instead of calling it an if, you call it an if-guard?  What, if-shnizzle was taken?
11:46:25 <Quiznos> wow, dont be a hata
11:46:40 <Quiznos> anyway
11:47:13 <JasonWoof> I440r: your datestamps are more than a week in the future in isforth-1.21b.tgz
11:47:28 <Quiznos> i dont fully get why Vic was wanting to reverse the sense of the assert either; asserts are just cruft to if-guards that can perform the same function as asserts() 
11:48:05 <I440r> argh i keep forgetting that carp
11:48:14 <I440r> my laptop NEVER keeps time
11:48:23 <I440r> i can set it now and when i reboot its b0rked again
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11:48:29 <I440r> let me redo the zip tho
11:49:21 <JasonWoof> I440r: I did: make; ./extend; ./isforth
11:49:42 <JasonWoof> the history allows me to go back with the up arrow, but not forward again to more recent history lines with down arrow
11:49:51 <JasonWoof> this is the x86 version btw
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11:50:37 <iano> Hi! Anyone else here doing the ICFP contest this year?
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11:52:15 <I440r> why is it that whenever i run ntp-client i totally lose all ability to change focus in x
11:53:23 <I440r> btw the linux x86 version is the only one being maintained atm
11:53:30 <I440r> tho the fbsd one is gona be updated
11:55:41 <I440r> bbl
12:09:53 <ayrnieu> iano - I'm going to get back on it in a few hours.  I've seen maybe three versions of the vm posted to comp.lang.forth
12:30:16 <iano> yeah, mine is working nicely.  I'm Grandeus. Some of the puzzles are pretty hard.
12:31:20 <Quiznos> grandiose
12:46:12 <Quiznos> ...
12:46:35 <Quiznos> normal, regex, extended, sensitive, non-sens.
12:46:41 <Quiznos> all of em
12:46:48 <Quiznos> that are available
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12:56:51 <tathi> so...what the heck *is* the ICFP contest task?
12:57:02 <ayrnieu> tathi - icfpcontest.org
12:57:39 <tathi> yes, I've read everything there
12:57:43 <tathi> it doesn't make much sense to me.
12:57:56 <tathi> I understand that you're supposed to implement that VM, but then what?
12:58:40 <ayrnieu> you're expected to make more sense out of it as you continue.
12:58:59 <tathi> weird
12:59:13 <tathi> seems like more of a puzzle-solving thing than a programming thing, but whatever
13:00:04 <ayrnieu> exploratory programming.
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13:11:30 <ayrnieu> : key key dup 0< if bye then ;  : b->l begin key key key key emit emit emit emit again ;  ( decided to stop fixing endianness on the fly.  The unix filter I have now is much simpler, too. )
13:12:28 <Quartus> Redefining KEY is a bit severe.  No better name for it?
13:13:27 <ayrnieu> It's not severe in a two-line program.  I normally call it 'unixkey', but here I think redefinition makes it clearer.
13:14:47 <Quiznos> what does unixkey do?
13:14:59 <ayrnieu> I normally call the KEY that I define right there, UNIXKEY
13:15:07 <Quiznos> ok
13:15:17 <ayrnieu> ('unixkey' because, somehow, I've only ever needed it in a unix filter)
13:15:42 <Quiznos> and key is recusive?
13:15:57 <ayrnieu> no.
13:16:11 <Quiznos> what is the meaning of `b->l'?
13:16:13 <ayrnieu> : foo 1 . ; : foo foo 2 . ; : foo foo 3 . ; foo
13:16:29 <Quiznos> oh enian
13:16:31 <Quiznos> endian
13:16:33 <Quiznos> k
13:20:22 <Quartus> Neither KEY nor unixkey are good names for a KEY that can close down the entire Forth.
13:21:05 <Quartus> In a program of any lenght.
13:22:53 <ayrnieu> You'd prefer it if b->l read  KEY ?BYE KEY ?BYE KEY ?BYE KEY ?BYE  ?
13:23:09 <Quiznos> Quartus your mention of "name spaces" yesterday has piqued my interest. thanks
13:23:32 <ayrnieu> it's a unix filter.  As soon as it runs out of input, it needs to think about what it should do.  Immediate termination is a common answer.
13:24:19 <Quartus> ayrnieu, that would only be preferable to leaving the KEY redefined.  Better would be to intelligently name your redefined KEY.
13:24:26 <Quartus> Quiznos, glad to pique.
13:24:30 <Quiznos> :)
13:24:52 <Quartus> I use a nestable module/public:/private:/end-module system for named modules.
13:25:06 <Quartus> It's described in the Quartus Forth user manual, if you're interested.
13:25:09 <ayrnieu> Quartus - I could name it K , and at least stop people from looking away from  KEY DUP 0< IF BYE THEN  for meaning.
13:25:25 <Quiznos> seriously, i've been wiking wiki-ing? that term, it led straight into functional programming and higher-order coding
13:25:38 <Quartus> K is a lousy name too.  But this is only my opinion, it's your code.
13:26:03 <Quartus> Well, name spaces have a role to play in many programming languages.  C lacks them.
13:26:06 <Quiznos> and i can almost imagine a way to incorporate runtime type info into namespaces
13:27:30 <Quiznos> lackage doesnt mean non-existence
13:27:51 <ayrnieu> Quartus - I think a source of disagreement between us on naming is that I treat names with very small 'scopes', which are used by very spacially compact words, the way I treat very local variables in other languages.  The code itself tells you what 'i' means, and calling it 'the-iterator-I-use-for-blah-stopping-at-blah' only makes everything less readable.
13:27:55 <Quartus> Well, in English it does, and in fact they are non-existent in C.
13:28:18 <Quiznos> nah
13:28:51 <Quartus> ayrnieu, redefining existing words so they have side-effects, or completely different effects, is confusing.  Naming words 'K', or something equally non-communicative, obscures the code.  If it's throw-away code, go nuts.  If it isn't, do better.  That's my advice.
13:29:28 <Quiznos> namespaces also led to Plan9
13:29:30 <Quartus> I have nowhere recommended 'the-iterator-I-use-for-blah-stopping-at-blah', nor anything like it.
13:29:38 <Quiznos> and filesystems and their layout
13:29:51 <Quartus> Quiznos, whatever 'nah' means, C doesn't have multiple namespaces.
13:29:53 <Quiznos> and lingustics briefly
13:29:56 <ayrnieu> it's isn't 'throw-away' code, it's just code that's entirely encapsulated in those two lines.  And /no/ naming of that word can obscure that code.
13:30:14 <Quartus> So the whole program is two lines?
13:30:22 <Quiznos> Quartus good compilers have at least two, one for structs and another for non-structs
13:30:35 <ayrnieu> aye.
13:31:12 <Quartus> Quiznos, you're splitting hairs.  There's no programmer-accessible namespaces.
13:32:11 <ayrnieu> in 'struct foo', the 'struct' can't be separated from the name.
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14:50:06 <I440r> back
14:50:17 <slava> hi I440r 
14:50:30 <I440r> hi
15:08:30 <I440r> slava did u try the new isforth ?
15:08:42 <slava> not yet
15:09:00 <I440r> k i THINK ive fixed the keyboard problems i was having before lol
15:09:10 <I440r> one person so far says it works this time
15:13:54 <Quiznos> in terms of namespaces and aside from vocabularies, has anyone developed a textual indicator to allow the fully-qualified specifiying of a word in one particular vocabulary from another?  (recall how java and c++ have multiple name spaces and how they allow fully qualified name specification)
15:14:40 <Quiznos> this post of course about adding namespaces to forth; the simple question being, how would a fully qualified name from a foreign namespace be indicated
15:15:11 <ayrnieu> Quiznos - I've ::' and ::. words for that, although I haven't used them recently.  ::' ( "module" "name" -- xt )  ::. ( ... "module" "name" -- ... )
15:15:26 <Quiznos> ok. how's the parsing on that?
15:15:36 <ayrnieu> I don't know how to answer that question, Quiznos.
15:15:42 <Quiznos> ok; ...
15:16:22 <Quiznos> so for ::' tick a word in a particular module?
15:16:27 <Quiznos> what is ::.?
15:16:45 <ayrnieu> : .:: ':: STATE @ if compile, exit then execute ; immediate
15:16:52 <Quiznos> ok
15:19:29 <ayrnieu> http://sagacity.merseine.nu:8080/misc/modulesys.fs  Normally used in libraries as:  module: ansicolor >module ansicolor definitions ... <module  and in applications as: include modulesys.fs import rot13.fs import unix-filter.fs ':: rot13 rotchar ':: unix-filter filter-line catch bye
15:19:45 <Quiznos> ty
15:20:05 <Quiznos> what's your opinion of your code?  does it integrate well with standard forth?
15:21:21 <ayrnieu> I don't think I need to bother with a seperate wordlist of modules and such the way I did there.  Also, in practice, I've mostly just put another vocabulary on the search-path long enough to make locally-meaningful aliases of its words.
15:21:57 <Quiznos> ok
15:22:54 <ayrnieu> for instance, I had a library that implemented a stack-like structure.  The application code had two stacks, and only imported that library long enough to rename them to quiz-push and such.  I think this has the neat effect that you can name structure-words naturally, like 'new' and 'push', without worrying about the application namespace.
15:23:56 <ayrnieu> I don't know how to talk about 'integration', though.
15:24:35 <Quiznos> integration: did all the new stuff you wrote and used fit well with the core stuff in actual usage
15:25:34 <ayrnieu> sorry, I don't know what you're asking.
15:25:54 <Quiznos> k, one more try:
15:26:05 <Quiznos> why arent you using the new stuff now?
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15:28:36 <ayrnieu> since then I've experimented with networking applications where I keep all the layers (from "import these low-level socket words" to "build these Forth-like wrappers" to "set up the tasks" to "actually do something useful") in one file, to lessen any barriers to going back and changing lower-level words at the convenience of higher level words.
15:30:45 <Quiznos> but wouldnt the lower level code be the most common across all apps? ie, libc, kernel code, other shared libraries?
15:30:50 <ayrnieu> although I see several places, not even in the networking stuff, where I could shove words into a module.
15:31:52 <Quiznos> common code is the stuff we're sposed to be factoring and (adding mine to this) moving into the main vocabulary for easy reuse 
15:32:08 <ayrnieu> Quiznos - in practice, I've made very few changes to the low-level code.  Still, I'm not confident of it yet.  Also, I never resolved my issue with modulesys.fs -- I decided I could probably make it more normal, using Forth vocabularies and such, but never went back and worked on this.
15:32:21 <Quiznos> kk
15:33:31 <Quiznos> i can see where some programmatic analysis would be well-suited to finding code that should be refactored; ie, duplication  higher-up of lower, more common code that is already named
15:34:20 <Quiznos> and possibly finding code strings that eval to NULL, ie, ``dup swap drop''
15:34:55 <ayrnieu> that's the job of a peephole optimizer.  I don't care much about it.
15:35:01 <Quiznos> k
15:37:33 <ayrnieu> gforth might be reversing argument lists somewhere in its FFI to make them read logically, and according to the manpages.  I immediately turn them about (and remove some arguments) to suit Forth conventions.  Parts of my code later on goes through gyrations to make sure that it passes things correctly.  A whole-program optimizer could compile the topmost word straight down to the syscall, removing stack manipulation.
15:38:31 <Quiznos> ok; i've been reading ancient lisp docs and all my thoughts have ben coalescing
15:38:42 <Quiznos> and other stuff, uniq and estoeric, too
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16:03:32 <Quartus_> wireless again!
16:03:53 <Quiznos> woot
16:05:00 <I440r> lol 
16:06:43 <Quartus_> ...
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16:07:28 <Quiznos> you insulted him
16:07:38 <I440r> u scared him
16:07:44 <Quiznos> i only wooted
16:07:49 <Quiznos> lol
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16:46:04 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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16:49:56 <ayrnieu> hi
16:49:59 <ayrnieu> /quit
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17:22:11 <LOOP-HOG> hi
17:23:23 <I440r> !
17:23:36 <I440r> LOOP-HOG,  do u use isforth ? :)
17:23:55 <LOOP-HOG> no
17:24:02 <LOOP-HOG> I just use SwiftForth right now
17:24:29 <LOOP-HOG> I want to learn windows programing with callbacks, but it is a hairy concept
17:24:52 <LOOP-HOG> you like give vectors to Windows for them to execute, so Windows is executing you
17:24:55 <LOOP-HOG> something like that
17:25:07 <crc> Win32 is hairy no matter how you approach it ;)
17:25:13 <LOOP-HOG> I had to take a break
17:25:20 <LOOP-HOG> from something that I was doing
17:25:58 <LOOP-HOG> It is weird, I think that windows really puts the burden on the programmer, even for things that Windows itself should be doing for you
17:26:05 <LOOP-HOG> I wasn't impressed
17:26:39 <LOOP-HOG> Anybody playing any online RPGs?
17:29:34 <tathi> nope :)
17:30:09 <tathi> my brother probably is though
17:30:41 <LOOP-HOG> I was thinking of trying out the new D&D, but I would have to upgrade my PC
17:30:44 <LOOP-HOG> I am cheap
17:31:00 <tathi> heh
17:31:16 <LOOP-HOG> I wonder if it is any good
17:31:50 <LOOP-HOG> Maybe it would be nicer than EQ insomuch as it is simpler, I think that EQ has gotten too complex
17:32:08 <LOOP-HOG> Those online RPGs really want the latest h/w
17:32:13 <LOOP-HOG> especially SL
17:32:17 <tathi> ya
17:32:20 <tathi> SL ?
17:32:38 <tathi> oh, Second Life
17:33:19 <LOOP-HOG> yes
17:33:26 <LOOP-HOG> I hear that it's a real resource hog
17:33:43 <LOOP-HOG> but people like the idea of an online rpg that the players can modify themselves
17:33:52 <tathi> dunno.
17:33:54 <LOOP-HOG> and it is non-combative
17:34:04 * tathi doesn't play video games, except little silly ones
17:34:51 <LOOP-HOG> like what?
17:34:58 <LOOP-HOG> It is a real time killer though
17:37:35 <LOOP-HOG> like the beat up the Olsen Twins game?
17:37:40 <I440r> i play online rpg's
17:37:43 <I440r> but not atm
17:37:54 <LOOP-HOG> which ones?
17:38:00 <LOOP-HOG> did you play at one time?
17:38:28 <Quiznos> i just run usr/games/rain
17:38:31 <I440r> materia magica and another that ive not played in about a year and i cant remember what its called heh
17:38:40 <Quiznos> and mayhaps worms
17:38:54 <Quiznos> and prime
17:38:58 <Quiznos> and factors
17:39:02 <Quiznos> and hangman
17:39:13 <Quiznos> basically, i'm easily entertained
17:39:20 <LOOP-HOG> what is usr/games/rain ?
17:39:30 <Quiznos> the future mrs Quiznos is not gonna have a difficult time
17:39:40 <LOOP-HOG> you are getting married?
17:39:42 <Quiznos> drops on tty console
17:39:46 <Quiznos> eventually
17:40:54 <tathi> LOOP-HOG: I like games like xkobo, wok, A Trip on the Funny Boat, vor
17:41:04 <Quiznos> xbill is fun
17:41:07 <tathi> cuyo and enigma had some fun levels
17:41:27 <tathi> :)
17:42:32 <LOOP-HOG> I liked Larn
17:42:40 <LOOP-HOG> I like pinball
17:42:58 <LOOP-HOG> "im not playing much of anything right now
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21:40:16 <ayrnieu> the gforth manpage has this for gforth-fast : Use it  for  debugged,  performance-critical programs such as benchmarks.
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23:48:35 <AI_coder> Is anyone familiar with mind4th?
23:50:06 <ayrnieu> I remember some business about <lang>MIND, mainly consisting of graphs with cognitively-named boxes.
23:50:21 <ayrnieu> but not familiar, no.
23:52:18 <AI_coder> Me neither, but they claim they have "solved ai" on june 7th this year. I was just curious about it.
23:52:56 <ayrnieu> well, if they've claimed it, ask them about it.
23:56:30 <AI_coder> ayrnieu: Yeah, I'm reading about it, the more I read the more I notice the same names posting the material in newsgroups and forums, probably just self-serving attention grabbing.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.22