00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.17 04:22:40 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool236-57.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:25:36 --- nick: segher_ -> segher 05:53:29 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 05:53:33 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 05:55:01 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-3pool158-27.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 07:17:37 --- quit: iano () 07:29:28 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-43-76.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 07:34:12 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #forth 07:34:31 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:49:03 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:53:27 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 09:18:18 --- quit: tattrdkat ("bah") 09:18:42 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-71-53-74-48.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) joined #forth 09:35:35 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #forth 09:49:32 --- quit: timlarson_ (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:49:34 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth 10:09:26 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:11:11 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-159-037.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 11:21:58 --- quit: segher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:35:07 --- join: astrobe (n=astrobe@c-real.rouen-wireless.net) joined #forth 13:00:18 --- quit: astrobe ("Wow! What a great client! Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]") 13:28:21 --- quit: timlarson__ ("Leaving") 13:40:20 --- quit: saon (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:19:56 --- join: vatic (n=charlest@pool-162-83-254-201.ny5030.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:33:25 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #forth 15:35:33 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 15:53:35 --- quit: vatic ("Chatzilla 0.9.71 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]") 16:46:06 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:52:37 tathi: found an e-book reader with an eInk display: http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Print?ProductSKU=PRS500 16:58:55 cool 16:59:07 didn't know they'd released anything in the U.S. yet 16:59:38 I don't know that you can buy it... 16:59:59 searching their site found nothing. I found that page on google 17:00:21 ah 17:00:48 seems odd. I went to sonystyle.com and searched for prs-500 17:00:52 that's the name of the product... 17:01:05 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:08:43 yeah... doesn't look like you can buy it 18:10:03 ok released 1.18b 18:10:27 released a partial port of the API for Sealevel parallel io boards 18:55:06 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:02:10 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 19:02:31 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection) 19:02:33 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-229-015.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:30:59 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-137-042.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:39:43 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 19:39:48 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 19:53:28 --- join: reuben (n=ben@leb-cr1-220-16.peak.org) joined #forth 19:53:47 what do interpret and compile mode mean in forth? 19:58:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth#Mixing_compilation_state_and_interpretation_state 20:00:59 compilation is creating machine codes (mostly jumps to those contained in primitive words) and copying them to memory. interpreting is looking up machine code and executing it directly. 20:02:09 somewhat like $() or `` in ksh 20:02:33 right 20:02:53 : myfunc swap dup drop ; 20:02:56 is a compilation 20:03:14 swap dup drop 20:03:23 is an interpreted line 20:03:49 but : myfunc [ swap ] dup drop ; will mix the two 20:04:06 : myfunc [ swap dup drop ] ; is synonymous with swap dup drop : myfunc ; 20:04:14 right 20:04:56 why not just write swap : myfunc dup drop ; then? 20:05:17 in certain cases it makes the code a lot more readable 20:05:47 swap : myfunc literal drop ; is less readable than : myfunc [ swap ] drop ; 20:06:00 er forgot to add literal there 20:06:23 : myfunc [ swap ] literal drop ; 20:07:47 or something like : myfunc [ myvar @ ] literal . ; 20:09:37 literal is an immediate word, as it takes a value from the stack at the compilation time. 20:12:44 mini-oof is hurting my brain, but i am afraid to use it without understanding it 20:14:26 what are you using it for? 20:14:47 i wrote forth code to read fat12 filesystems 20:15:12 i am interested in trying to encapsulate it in an object 20:15:24 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=jason@66.213.202.50) joined #forth 20:15:28 hi 20:15:33 then i can try to be lazy and make multiple stances to copy from one filesystem to another 20:15:36 hi LOOP-HOG 20:15:38 instances 20:17:04 any thoughts on the new Forth chips? 20:17:06 oop stuff always hurts my brain :P 20:17:18 I read that they will be available in 4Q 20:17:22 But who knows? 20:17:31 tables are meant to be the gods decree 20:17:36 :) 20:17:40 loop-hog: where? 20:17:58 ?? 20:18:07 where did you read about them? 20:18:15 At some Russian Forth board 20:18:27 I would have to go look for it again, I quit by browser 20:18:40 I have been reading about them here and there, do you want urls? 20:18:52 i read fantastical claims about forth being a productivity booster, but i find it the opposite =) so long as it is fun, it is all good 20:19:07 loop-hog: one url would be enough for me 20:20:02 http://www.intellasys.net/ 20:20:07 Chuck and Jeff work there 20:20:12 It's chucks chip 20:20:21 Looks like it may actually come out this time 20:20:29 nice 20:21:12 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-16-148-97.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:21:43 intel is sheding 1000 management positions 20:21:55 I guess people are just not buying new PCs like they used to 20:22:05 is the computer revolution over? 20:22:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 20:22:18 are there any new ideas? 20:22:18 heh, maybe it's time for the retro revolution to start :) 20:22:19 intellasys has an interesting team 20:22:53 loop-hog: i am the wrong person to talk to about new ideas, i think that the revolution was 3/4 snake oil 20:23:04 loop-hog: like the railroad building craze 20:23:47 there was alot of hype 20:23:56 now people want to get into VoIP, which sucks anyway 20:24:36 and alot of money lost 20:25:27 people don't know what they want any more. which is why they need snake oil salesmen to tell them what they want... 20:25:34 i don't see why voip can't be superior to mobile phones 20:26:20 well when I used it, there was one channel that both talkers needed to share, and there was no way to tell when one person ceased talking and antother one started, drive me nuts 20:26:51 i use it daily at work, and it is only slightly better than mobile phone quality 20:27:21 when i am talking with someone far away, sometimes their networking will have blips and the audio quality will suffer 20:28:01 it doesn't drop the connection, but occasionally we hang up and call on a real line 20:28:24 mainly when the other end is hanging off consumer internet like a cable modem 20:29:08 too technical, people just want to talk 20:29:20 maybe it's good for techies, but the average joe isn't going to go for it 20:29:26 sort of like Unix boxes in the home 20:30:09 i think the current non-techie adoption is due to economics 20:30:19 calling your buddy in europe is a heck of a lot cheaper with voip 20:32:31 what's wrong with unix boxes in the home? 20:33:55 too hard to use, if you shut them down wrong they get messed up and need fixing 20:34:00 docl: my inlaws think they are technically inclined and they have trouble keeping things smooth just keeping up with mozilla, opera, and ie on the same machine 20:34:09 sorry I have to go 20:34:11 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ("Leaving") 20:34:14 docl: i wouldn't push any kind of unix on them 20:34:31 heh, they need to delete mozilla and IE :P 20:34:56 too bad there's not an ultra simple one-size-fits all linux distro out there 20:35:20 (at least they all try to be...) 20:35:49 mandrake is fairly newbie-usable 20:43:43 : myfunc [ swap dup drop ] ; is synonymous with swap dup drop : myfunc ; --- no it's not. 20:44:17 : myfunc may well leave items on the stack. The subsequent [ swap dup drop ] will mess around with those, leaving ; in an uncertain condition. 20:46:09 thank you for the help, this channel is great 20:46:33 --- quit: reuben ("peace") 20:50:51 good point, Quartus. it would depend how : is defined, and how it parses the name. 20:55:21 I can't see the name-parsing being a problem, but for sure : commonly leaves stuff on the control-flow stack. 21:00:02 is the data stack used in some instances? 21:02:26 I guess it could be, so it probably is. 21:02:45 It's pretty much always the data stack. 21:03:29 swap dup drop would definately affect it in that case. 21:04:41 retroforth uses the return stack for flow control, so the commands would be equivilent in that case. 21:04:47 I find it a bit odd that somebody who claims to have written a FAT filesystem reader in Forth doesn't already know the difference between interpreting and compiling. 21:04:57 The return stack? How does it manage that? 21:05:00 * docl does as well 21:07:15 well, I thought it did. not sure really. 21:07:35 it doesn't use the data stack, I know that. 21:11:18 Maybe it keeps a separate stack. I haven't looked at the internals. 21:12:25 you should, it's a clean read 21:13:21 it has a state variable, and it calls parse as part of the colon definition which is in the fasm part 21:19:43 Wouldn't any : call parse? 21:19:51 Or parse-word, or whatever? 21:21:49 I've just looked at the retro8 I still have here... it has a separate compile loop, like I think the old FIG did. Not a standard-style system. I haven't dug in to see if it even keeps any colon-sys type of data. 21:22:46 From what I can see it doesn't. 21:26:01 probably not. it keeps track of states and (in 9.2 anyways) has a class word. the forth equivilent of the asm code that is used seems to be : : create: as .class x: ] ; 21:29:41 I don't follow that just from the syntax, I'd have to know more about retro than I do. 21:30:36 The retro8 I'm looking at here seems to be a simple, antique-style Forth compiler with a separate compile loop. 21:32:09 basically, parse, make an entry, link to the presently selected class (.forth or .macro), then change the state variable to -1. if the state is -1, the interpret loop runs compile on .forth classed words. 21:39:52 Curiously complex. 21:42:47 Though in that form, closer to the Standard than the retrol8 I have here -- what you describe has one interpret loop that changes from interpreting to compiling based on state, which is closer to standard practice. 21:43:20 The multiple-wordlist approach always seemed needlessly complex to me. 21:43:37 yeah 21:43:50 http://retroforth.org/repos/902/rx/rx is the code I'm looking at 21:44:07 I'll have to take a look at retro8 and see what it was like there. 21:47:25 I just had a look at the link. I can't speak to any class stuff, as I don't see it there, but that's pretty normal modern Forth behaviour, setting state and having the interpret loop do the right thing. 21:48:30 cool 21:51:17 classes are words which designate whether created word is treated as data (constant/variable), macro (immediate word) or forth (normal word) 21:51:55 their definitions are near the top of the rx asm file 21:56:56 So, in separate wordlists, effectively. 21:57:08 That seems like a complicated way to avoid using an immediate flag. 21:57:29 Is there any added benefit? 22:00:54 there is the possibility of user-defined classes which use the interpreter loop in other ways 22:02:08 I see. 22:08:31 an example of this is the .vocab class, used to create seperate wordlists for specific purposes. 22:08:49 * docl is not entirely clear on exactly how it works yet 22:12:11 gotta go to bed, nice chatting 22:13:33 ciao 22:29:43 this weather is warming me up to the idea of moving to Maine 22:36:29 --- quit: ohub (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:30 --- quit: Raystm2_ (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:30 --- quit: Zymurgy (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:31 --- quit: ayrnieu (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:31 --- quit: Snoopy42 (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:31 --- quit: uiuiuiu (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:32 --- quit: segher_ (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:33 --- quit: warpzero (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:36:33 --- quit: ccfg (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:38:01 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-137-042.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-229-015.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: segher_ (n=segher@dslb-084-056-159-037.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-69-149-43-76.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: Zymurgy (i=zymurgy@cat.delfax.net) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: ayrnieu (i=julian@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/ayrnieu) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: ohub (n=oherrala@sikw1.oulu.fi) joined #forth 22:38:01 --- join: ccfg (n=ccfg@80.222.138.21) joined #forth 23:07:02 --- quit: segher_ ("Leaving") 23:55:36 --- join: LOOP-HOG (n=jason@66.213.202.50) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.17