00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.11
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09:13:26 <ASau> Dobry vecer!
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11:11:24 <ayrnieu> http://paste.lisp.org/display/22415
11:34:52 <tathi> bah.  they're both wrong
11:35:03 <tathi> yyyy-mm-dd is the only format that really makes sense
11:35:17 <tathi> then they sort lexically in the proper order
11:36:07 <tathi> and what the heck is "VFB standard date format", anyway?
11:36:33 <Quartus> I have no idea.  You're right, yyyy-mm-dd is the most sensible.
11:37:14 <Quartus> Gotta love the meaningless reference to 'cache misses', as though the scanning of dates in memory is done in a tight, hand-coded optimized loop. :)
11:38:02 <ayrnieu> I mentioned this elsewhere, and someone pointed me to http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
11:38:37 <virl> not only..
11:38:49 <virl> also dd-mm-yyyy
11:38:59 <ayrnieu> lexical sorts matter little when you write on paper, anyway.  I prefer 11 Jul 2006
11:39:27 <ayrnieu> later in that thread, someone claims to use roman numerals for the month
11:39:57 <Quartus> What discussion group is that that concentrates that many silly people in one place? :)
11:40:04 <ayrnieu> alt.sysadmin.recovery
11:40:08 <JasonWoof> lexical sorting matters for filenames
11:40:23 <tathi> yes, he said "when you write on paper"
11:40:32 <Quartus> ayrnieu, huh, I'd expect them to be more sensible.
11:41:06 <Quartus> Unless it's a group for people recovering from being lousy sysadmins? :)
11:41:07 <tathi> if they were sensible, they would have proper backups and recovery stuff, and they wouldn't need the newsgroup :)
11:41:20 <Quartus> heh
11:41:26 <ayrnieu> Quartus - what would they do if they were more sensible?
11:43:23 <Quartus> There'd be a significant reduction in Roman numerals and the discussion of 'cache misses' as regards date formats.
11:44:56 <Quartus> In fact, there'd be XXIV times fewer of each.
11:47:14 <JasonWoof> construction crew next door is a bit distracting
11:47:18 <JasonWoof> they're taking out the gass station
11:47:37 <JasonWoof> now it looks like they're working on getting the huge tank onto a flatbead trailer
11:47:42 <JasonWoof> flatbed
11:47:55 <JasonWoof> I just watched them lift a guy up onto it with the backhoe
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11:57:53 <Ray_work> Quartus: lol dude you break me up.
11:58:10 <Ray_work> JasonWoof: what are they doing now. /me distracted by JasonWoof's distraction...
11:58:22 <Ray_work> And what about the big-dig.
11:58:35 <Ray_work> lucky you live clear across the state.
11:58:49 <JasonWoof> standing around :)
12:00:34 * docl is exploring gnu screen's capabilities and limitations.
12:01:17 <docl> apparently there's no provision for moving a process from one screen session to another.
12:14:00 <JasonWoof> screen is very cool
12:14:16 <JasonWoof> you may enjoy dtach as well
12:14:17 <docl> sure is
12:14:26 <JasonWoof> it is similar in some ways, but has different features/limitations
12:14:30 * docl may try that
12:15:12 <docl> seems like a screen window should be more transplantable
12:15:42 <JasonWoof> the trouble with screen is there's no good way to say which screen session you'd like to attach to
12:15:51 <JasonWoof> from a script
12:15:59 <JasonWoof> screen expects the user to look over the list and pick one
12:16:16 <JasonWoof> dtach on the other hand is perfect for scripts, as you must specify a filename where the session can be addressed
12:16:32 <docl> neat
12:17:10 <docl> I take it they can be used together powerfully?
12:18:00 <docl> hmm, with ion I guess the need for screen's other features is greatly diminished
12:19:10 <JasonWoof> I've used them together once
12:19:24 <JasonWoof> dtach for making the session accessible, and screen to cache the screen contents and history
12:19:46 <JasonWoof> I'm trying to remember what I did that for.
12:19:48 <JasonWoof> perhaps my mail logs
12:19:56 <JasonWoof> I'm not doing it anymore
12:20:09 <JasonWoof> think I switched to the djb logger thing
12:21:23 <docl> screen is awesome with irssi
12:21:46 <docl> not sure about it's logging features, having to go into a special mode to scroll back is a pain
12:22:47 <JasonWoof> yes, but it's the only method I know that works
12:22:51 <JasonWoof> dtach is better for irssi
12:23:03 <JasonWoof> I use dtach for irssi and mutt
12:23:08 <JasonWoof> and bittorrent
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12:23:37 <JasonWoof> dtach is better than screen for things that maintain their own screen display/history (like vim, irssi, etc)
12:23:49 <JasonWoof> and which you only want to have one of
12:24:03 <JasonWoof> maybe not so useful for vim
12:24:07 <JasonWoof> but I love it for irssi
12:24:08 <JasonWoof> and mutt
12:24:22 <JasonWoof> I hit F3 and I get a new window with my irssi session in it
12:24:27 <JasonWoof> when I'm done I just close it
12:28:59 <docl> nice
12:34:07 <docl> does irssi have any feature for switching from one console/session to another without losing it's connection?
12:34:39 * docl notices the --session=PATH option
12:43:10 <JasonWoof> huh?
12:43:26 <JasonWoof> don't think so
12:43:42 <JasonWoof> you mean closing the tty and attaching to another?
12:44:20 <JasonWoof> if you run irssi inside dtach, you can connect any terminal to dtach and see irssi
12:45:35 <JasonWoof> heh, my donation expired
12:47:08 <JasonWoof> man, I've been getting spam over icq since I re-installed bitlbee
12:48:30 <docl> I guess that means I'll have to quit irssi to get it running in dtach. :(
12:48:56 <docl> you'd think linux would have solved that issue long ago.
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12:53:29 <JasonWoof> docl: I think the linux terminals are purposely hard to mess with, so that it's hard to snoop on people typing their passwords
12:54:04 <JasonWoof> that and the whole os design is what? 30 years old?
12:54:17 <docl> heh, yeah
12:54:33 <docl> but the design is modular enough it *should* be both possible and trivial.
12:54:47 <docl> (imnsho :P)
12:55:04 <JasonWoof> no problem, just run everything inside dtach :)
12:55:08 <docl> ah well, I'm in a dtach now
12:55:49 <docl> hmm, maybe I could put this in my bashrc or something :)
12:55:50 <JasonWoof> I like dtach
12:55:56 <JasonWoof> now I wish I could do the same with graphical programs :)
12:56:12 <JasonWoof> docl: you running X?
12:56:15 <docl> yeah
12:56:35 <JasonWoof> you could modify your hotkey/whatever that starts up a terminal to run dtach automatically
12:56:47 <docl> that'd work
12:57:30 <JasonWoof> rxvt -title "dtach $$" -e "dtach -c ~/.dtach/$$ bash"
12:58:00 <JasonWoof> or some such
12:58:49 <docl> ooh, nice
12:59:47 <JasonWoof> might have to put it in a bash script to get the $$ to give a unique value. I'm not sure
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13:10:36 <docl> $(date +%s) does it
13:13:33 <JasonWoof> just don't hold down the key :)
13:14:46 <docl> yeah :)
13:16:08 <docl> actually $$ works fine with a hotkey
13:21:20 <JasonWoof> cool
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15:21:09 <I440r> .msg tcn
15:21:13 <I440r> yo!
15:21:15 <I440r> argh
15:21:23 <I440r> damn i cant type
15:21:27 <I440r> and i gotta log in grrr
15:21:30 <tcn> hey
15:21:35 <I440r> hi :)
15:21:45 <I440r> was gona /msg you but u gotta log in to do that now
15:21:49 <I440r> hows it going ?
15:21:58 <tcn> not bad.. kinda hot and muggy here
15:22:04 <I440r> heh
15:22:10 <I440r> thats what ac's are for :)
15:22:25 <tcn> yeah, we're thinking about getting one for downstairs
15:22:33 <I440r> you dont have one at all ?
15:22:34 <I440r> eek!
15:22:37 <tcn> upstairs
15:22:42 <I440r> i'd be living in my car lol
15:22:53 <tcn> aren't you in texas now?
15:23:04 <I440r> no im in south carolina working a contract
15:23:08 <I440r> but i live in san antonio
15:23:11 <tcn> close enough
15:23:16 <I440r> :)
15:23:33 <I440r> so what would it take to get you back onboard with isforth :)
15:23:34 <tcn> i'm only in massachusetts
15:23:44 <I440r> yea i know boston isnt it ?
15:24:14 <tcn> greenfield.. it's out there
15:24:44 <tcn> practically vermont
15:24:48 <I440r> ok
15:25:00 <tcn> i was born in san antonio
15:25:14 <I440r> no shit?
15:25:24 <I440r> i like sa
15:25:28 <tcn> yeah.. then we moved back to NY
15:26:10 <I440r> u didnt answer my question :)
15:26:13 <tcn> I talked like a texan for the next 5-10 years
15:26:33 <I440r> lol 
15:26:45 <tcn> well.. what have you done with Isforth since I worked on it?
15:26:53 <I440r> a hell of alot
15:27:02 <I440r> ive got a memory manager
15:27:07 <I440r> so i can allocate and free
15:27:26 <I440r> i got terminfo parsing so i can run in almost any terminal and do curses stuff without ncurses
15:27:32 <I440r> thats not perfect tho 
15:27:43 <I440r> i just added signal handling as you know
15:27:53 <I440r> and an awesome debugger
15:27:58 <I440r> thats also a work in progress
15:28:04 <tcn> wow
15:28:13 <I440r> i just added what im tenativly calling semaphores
15:28:15 <I440r> i can do...
15:28:21 <I440r> : blah ...... ;
15:28:23 <tcn> can you add runtime data typing?
15:28:39 <I440r> ### ' blah +semaphore
15:29:01 <I440r> then any time someone does ### >semaphore blah and all other functions on that number get run
15:29:11 <I440r> forth doesnt do data types
15:29:25 <I440r> but
15:29:33 <I440r> yes it could be added
15:29:39 <I440r> it just wouldnt be right lol
15:30:08 <I440r> oh yea
15:30:12 <I440r> i also got basic sockets 
15:30:31 <tcn> well.. i'm working on a better infix parser..
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15:31:01 <I440r> thats my forth compiler 
15:31:08 <I440r> running a do nothing irc bot coded in forth
15:31:22 <tcn> Forth: 5 .
15:31:24 <I440r> i could convert it to a proper irc bot
15:31:34 <I440r> the plan was to allow you to do that
15:31:35 <tcn> forth: 5 . cr
15:31:42 <I440r> it wont respond
15:31:43 <tcn> hahaha
15:31:45 <I440r> that parts not coded
15:31:55 <I440r> i wanted to give you the ability to actually CODE stuff thru the bot
15:31:57 <tcn> i'm not much of an IRC user
15:32:09 <I440r> the plan is to have it be a forth help bot
15:32:10 <tcn> we used to have a bot like that
15:33:11 <I440r> i wrote that long ago, she needs to be recoded :)
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15:33:56 <I440r> extended isforth is now almost 80k in size 
15:34:06 <tcn> bloated ;)
15:34:08 <I440r> the kernel is about 17k
15:34:14 <I440r> yea theres alot in there thats totally optional
15:34:19 <I440r> stuff im working on
15:34:32 <I440r> but my ncurses code is a whopping FOUR K
15:34:38 <I440r> and actually thats not that bloated
15:34:43 <I440r> this is a 32 bit forth
15:34:53 <I440r> it would be about half that size on a 16 bit forth
15:34:56 <tcn> still direct threaded?
15:34:59 <I440r> yes
15:35:23 <tcn> So I wonder if that's really faster than subroutine threading
15:35:50 <I440r> no
15:35:57 <tcn> not even close?
15:36:06 <I440r> its not faster but its easier for a beginner to get to grips with
15:36:16 <I440r> with subroutine threading you can do ALOT of neat tricks
15:36:19 <I440r> that are complex
15:36:27 <I440r> like... inline all primatives
15:36:39 <I440r> instead of inlining a call to dup you assemble a push ebx
15:36:46 <I440r> way more efficient
15:37:00 <I440r> but the compiler is alot less trivial than the one i have here
15:37:03 <tcn> i did some stuff like that in an old version of retro
15:37:05 <I440r> and im not THAT slow
15:37:21 <I440r> i can compile over 2 megs of source per second with isforth on this box
15:37:25 <I440r> thats a guesstimate
15:37:40 <tcn> anyway, i have this compiler that outputs RPN code.. DTC might be a good choice for it..
15:38:19 <tcn> i'd sorta like to have an untyped, forth-compatible version as well as a dynamic-typed version like Python or Lua
15:38:58 <I440r> :)
15:39:10 <I440r> data types are a crutch for poor programmers
15:39:11 <tcn> Lua is pretty cool.. it's up there with Forth in terms of elegance
15:39:14 <I440r>   --- chuck moore
15:39:27 <I440r> yea ive heared things along those lines
15:39:38 <I440r> data typoes are annoying to me
15:39:49 <tcn> didn't chuck end up eating those words later?
15:40:04 <I440r> "no you cant store that CHAR data in that address because that address is reserved for BYTE data"
15:40:07 <I440r> ugh
15:40:09 <I440r> i doubt it
15:40:30 <I440r> he may have said sorry to anyone he offended but that didnt mean he changed his mind about it lol
15:40:59 <I440r> data types are basically a way for the compiler to play mommy and hold your hand...
15:41:14 <I440r> its a way to prevent you from accidently shootinbg yourself in the foot
15:41:29 <tcn> I like runtime typing, even though it's slower.. it makes for more compact code.. unless you're doing system programming
15:41:43 <I440r> how can it make for more compact code
15:41:50 <I440r> brb, getting a JD
15:42:33 <tcn> it's compact because you don't have to say "this is an int, this is a string, convert this, typecast that, etc.."
15:43:25 <I440r> well forth has no typing and the addition thereof would make the code larger and slower
15:43:31 <I440r> and more complex
15:43:40 <I440r> methunks
15:44:42 <I440r> i need an assembler 
15:44:45 <tcn> well.. you know how Forth code has lots of stuff like CELL+ 4+ W+ 1+ , c, 4, .... if it had types, that'd be unnecessary
15:44:57 <I440r> i dont do that crap
15:45:09 <I440r> i added cell cells cell+ cell- etc under protest
15:45:19 <tcn> what do you prefer then?
15:45:27 <I440r> i KNOW my cell size
15:45:29 <I440r> 4+
15:45:31 <I440r> 4-
15:45:32 <I440r> 4*
15:45:34 <I440r> etc
15:45:55 <tcn> do you have structs?
15:46:00 <I440r> yes
15:46:04 <I440r> and linked lists
15:46:13 <I440r> how would i do a memory manager without lol
15:46:13 <tcn> so.. how do you go to the next item in a struct array?
15:46:21 <I440r> next@ :)
15:46:51 <I440r> do you have a linux or fbsd box ?
15:46:56 <I440r> isforth runs in fbsd too
15:47:00 <tcn> so you struct code automates some of your data type issues
15:47:04 <I440r> but ive not updated it
15:47:13 <tcn> i'm using linux
15:47:22 <I440r> its not strictly data types
15:47:34 <I440r> its not like typedef struct lol
15:47:43 <I440r> actually CM dislines c style structs in forth
15:47:47 <tcn> what Linux are you running?
15:47:49 <I440r> gentoo
15:48:11 <tcn> same here.. just installed Archlinux on my other box though.. so much easier
15:48:25 <I440r> arch is easier ?
15:48:33 <I440r> i like gentoo
15:48:34 <tcn> binary packages.. i686 only though
15:48:35 <I440r> ALOT
15:48:40 <I440r> oh ok :)
15:48:53 <I440r> gentoo is a meta distro
15:49:01 <tcn> and the bootscripts and stuff are faster & simpler than gentoo
15:49:09 <I440r> so download isforth 1.17b at isforth.clss.net
15:49:17 <I440r> it was released a cpl of days ago
15:49:28 <I440r> and im working towards another release 
15:49:28 <tcn> oh I thought I got that about 3 years ago :)
15:49:39 <I440r> no 1.16b
15:50:08 <I440r> 1.17b was released just now
15:50:14 <I440r> unless i made a booboo lol
15:50:25 <I440r> and released two versions with the same number
15:50:28 <I440r> i dont believe so tho
15:50:29 <tcn> the files are timestamped in the future :)
15:50:34 <I440r> yea i know
15:50:40 <I440r> my freekin laptop clock is fubar
15:50:42 <I440r> grr
15:51:03 <I440r> after extending do this
15:51:09 <I440r> 123 debug allocate
15:51:22 <I440r> then press cursor down till the green highlight is on the ;
15:51:30 <I440r> then press shifted h
15:51:36 <I440r> :)
15:51:52 <I440r> alot of the words in there are headerless so they decompile as
15:51:53 <I440r> : ???
15:51:56 <I440r>  ..... ;
15:53:33 <tcn> wow.. sweet
15:53:36 <I440r> :)
15:53:47 <tcn> why 123?
15:53:48 <I440r> she still has some minor issues
15:53:57 <I440r> any mumber will do
15:54:07 <I440r> the allocator allocates anything for you
15:54:26 <I440r> it allocates a heap and will give you chunks of said heap with a granularity of 16 bytes
15:54:41 <I440r> and if you try allocate more memory that is left in a heap it will allocate a new heap for you
15:54:52 <I440r> you could try ./isforth -fload src/mmtest.f
15:55:09 <I440r> that allocates 20 thousand buffers of random size from 16 bytes to 16k
15:55:11 <tcn> this thing is slow.. is there a faster way to skip down to ';'
15:55:24 <I440r> then frees them up in a random order
15:55:26 <I440r> press space
15:55:32 <I440r> cursor to the ;
15:55:44 <I440r> then press h unshifted
15:55:49 <I440r> and it will run at almost full speed
15:55:56 <I440r> space single steps
15:56:03 <I440r> enter will nest into any nestable definitions
15:56:13 <I440r> including defered words that are vectored to : defs
15:56:15 <I440r> etc etc etc
15:56:33 <I440r> i need to add code to handle nesting into execute when top of stack points to a : def
15:56:49 <I440r> press escape to quit out 
15:57:00 <I440r> try fload src/mmtest
15:57:31 <I440r> that will allocate lots of buffers - you will end up with about 8 heaps allocated but they will all be freed up when you deallocate
15:57:42 <I440r> if you deallocate all buffers in a heap the heap itself is freed
15:58:10 <I440r> if you hit m it will take the top of stack as the memory window address
15:58:14 <I440r> non destructivly
15:58:21 <I440r> it doesnt eat the item on the stack
15:58:27 <I440r> it just views that address
15:59:39 <I440r> oh.. are you running mmtest ?
15:59:44 <tcn> whoa.. i only have 64M RAM!!!
15:59:50 <I440r> lol
15:59:57 <tcn> 512 on the other box
16:00:07 <I440r> is it just displaying numbers or is ther a bunc of nice columns of stuff ?
16:00:23 <tcn> it counted up to 12000 and started swapping
16:00:30 <I440r> ok
16:00:41 <I440r> its not displaying all the info hang on
16:00:46 <I440r> i forgot i did that to it lol
16:00:49 <I440r> i was testing something
16:00:55 <I440r> ok
16:01:00 <I440r> edit src/mmtest.f
16:01:07 <I440r> and change the 20000 to some other number
16:01:17 <I440r> then look for two lines that are commented out
16:01:23 <tcn> hang on i'm turning on the other one
16:01:28 <I440r> that call .meminfo
16:01:29 <I440r> ok
16:01:39 <I440r> uncomment the two lines that call .meminfo
16:02:02 <tcn> she uses it for watching DVDs and stuff mostly, on the TV.. I use this old thing as sort of a dumb terminal
16:02:19 <I440r> :)
16:02:23 <tcn> with a 17" LCD
16:02:26 <I440r> how fast is that old thing ?
16:02:31 <tcn> 350mhz
16:02:36 <I440r> oooh nice!
16:02:40 <I440r> do time ./extend
16:02:43 <I440r> how long does it take?
16:02:45 <I440r> hehe
16:02:58 <tcn> 1.3s
16:03:23 <I440r> thats 300k+ of source in 1.3 seconds
16:03:24 <tcn> and make takes 2.6s
16:03:33 <I440r> still not too bad
16:03:40 <I440r> i wish i had a meg or 2 of source code
16:03:44 <I440r> some day :)
16:03:46 <tcn> and this is an AMD
16:04:14 <I440r> cool :)
16:04:26 <I440r> on my amd k6-3/550 i did 800k per second
16:04:29 <I440r> ish
16:04:40 <tcn> hmm
16:05:06 <tcn> extend took 0.9 sec the second time
16:05:15 <I440r> yea
16:05:17 <I440r> its cached 
16:05:20 <I440r> by linux
16:05:36 <tcn> yeah, i'm taking the HD out  the equation
16:05:46 <I440r> aha ok :)
16:06:07 <tcn> you do any graphics stuff?
16:06:29 <I440r> not yet
16:06:38 <tcn> run X, even?
16:06:39 <I440r> but i want to get x protocol stuff done
16:06:42 <I440r> not yet
16:06:47 <I440r> its majorly on the todo list
16:06:50 <I440r> oh
16:06:52 <I440r> i run x here
16:06:58 <I440r> but isforth doesnt yet
16:06:58 --- part: tcn left #forth
16:06:59 <I440r> hehe
16:07:04 --- join: tcn (n=user@pool-72-70-247-128.spfdma.east.verizon.net) joined #forth
16:07:06 <I440r> wb
16:07:08 <tcn> oops
16:07:11 <I440r> lol
16:07:34 <tcn> ^K in this client is 'kill channel'
16:07:52 <I440r> lol
16:07:52 <tcn> forgot about that :)
16:08:03 <tcn> usually it's 'erase line'
16:08:06 <JasonWoof> isn't that supposed to change the color?
16:08:10 <JasonWoof> ahh
16:08:20 <JasonWoof> oh right ^C for color...
16:08:32 <tcn> that's 'kill program' :)
16:08:34 <JasonWoof> I changed it though, because ^C is for killing things
16:08:48 <I440r> only if you havent disabled it lol
16:08:53 <I440r> control c wont kill isforth
16:09:18 <tcn> killed my isforth
16:09:21 <JasonWoof> I440r: why not?
16:09:38 <I440r> because i disabled it lol
16:09:43 <I440r> it did ?
16:09:54 <I440r> it never kills isforth
16:10:20 <I440r> did you make those changes to mmtest.f ?
16:14:52 <JasonWoof> not how, why?
16:15:25 <I440r> because i didnt have signal handling at the time and i didnt want a control c quitting 
16:15:34 <I440r> unless i could do it elegantly
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16:15:59 <tcn> ok... 28 seconds for 5000 buffers..
16:16:03 <JasonWoof> oh, like returning the terminal to it's rightful state?
16:16:14 <I440r> tada
16:16:25 <I440r> not too bad
16:16:31 <I440r> not very fast but its all forth
16:16:45 <I440r> i saw an optimization i could to to it earlier today :)
16:16:52 <I440r> but i wanna recode parts of it in assembler
16:16:59 <I440r> freeing up buffers is the truely slow part
16:18:27 <I440r> did u uncomment the commented out lines ?
16:18:35 <I440r> that info display slows it down alot too lol
16:18:39 <I440r> but it looks cool :P:
16:19:44 <I440r> damn it segfaults here when its finished
16:20:57 <tcn> heh
16:21:59 <I440r> lol
16:22:11 <I440r> its a bug - ill track it down later :P
16:22:23 <I440r> some things you cant debug with the debugger btw - this might be one of them
16:22:26 <I440r> not sure
16:22:54 <I440r> yea
16:23:12 <I440r> i was sorta working on fixing that 
16:25:00 <I440r> query tcn
16:25:04 <I440r> ugh
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16:39:50 <tcn> hey, this thing segfaults on my other box
16:40:05 <I440r> do you have terminfo on the other box ?
16:40:15 <tcn> hmm
16:40:22 <tcn> even ./kernel.com segfaults..
16:40:31 <I440r> ok i know what the problem is
16:40:43 <tcn> VIA cpu?
16:40:47 <I440r> edit src/isforth.f
16:40:57 <I440r> erno
16:41:07 <I440r> edit src/kernel/isforth.asm
16:41:19 <tcn> ok
16:41:25 <I440r> %define _addr0 _addr1-0a0h      ;points to start of elf header
16:41:34 <I440r> change that like to -080h
16:41:41 <I440r> and re assemble the kernel
16:42:17 <tcn> that's it
16:42:20 <I440r> it pisses me off
16:42:25 <tcn> what's the deal there?
16:42:33 <I440r> its the size of the elf headers
16:42:51 <I440r> on some versions of linux the elf header is the $80 bytes
16:42:55 <I440r> on others its $a0 bytes
16:43:00 <I440r> and ive no fscking idea why
16:43:15 <I440r> when im meta compiling this whole problem will go away
16:43:28 <tcn> so you're using ld
16:43:31 <I440r> but i need an assembler so far
16:43:32 <I440r> no
16:43:33 <I440r> nasm is
16:44:28 <tcn> since you're only linking one .o file you don't really need ld
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16:44:56 <tcn> use 'nasm -f bin' and generate your own elf headers
16:44:59 <slava> hi
16:45:05 <slava> I440r: are you around?
16:45:12 <slava> I440r: the new isforth segfaults
16:45:13 <I440r> ill fix that when im metacompiling
16:45:17 <I440r> hehe
16:45:31 <I440r> u running linux ?
16:45:36 <slava> yes
16:45:46 <slava> slava@tawhiti:~/isforth-1.17b$ ./kernel.com
16:45:46 <slava> Segmentation fault
16:45:47 <I440r> ok - look in src/kernel/isforth.asm
16:45:52 <I440r> %define _addr0 _addr1-0a0h      ;points to start of elf header
16:46:00 <slava> yes
16:46:02 <I440r> change that line to -080h
16:46:11 <I440r> and rebuild the kernel
16:46:20 <slava> woohoo
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16:46:24 <I440r> :)
16:46:35 <slava> extend worked too
16:46:39 <I440r> ya
16:46:46 <I440r> check out the debugger
16:46:49 <I440r> ./isforth
16:46:52 <I440r> 123
16:46:52 <slava> wait the status bar doesn't show list/head/depth/base numbers
16:46:59 <I440r> debug allocate
16:47:02 <I440r> it doesnt ?
16:47:07 <I440r> argh
16:47:12 <I440r> do you have terminfo installed ?
16:47:13 <slava> what is the ??? in the debugger
16:47:18 <I440r> headerless words
16:47:22 <slava> oh
16:47:23 <I440r> press cursor down
16:47:25 <slava> hmm this is nice
16:47:32 <slava> doesn't do anything
16:47:33 <I440r> till the green highlight is on the ;
16:47:38 <slava> space advances though
16:47:42 <I440r> space steps
16:47:47 <I440r> enter nests into
16:47:57 <I440r> cursor down should move a green highlight
16:48:06 <slava> nope
16:48:18 <I440r> what terminal are u running in ?
16:48:26 <slava> xterm
16:48:40 <I440r> i think my terminal code is a big flaky in xterm
16:48:45 <I440r> do you have eterm ?
16:48:49 <slava> no
16:48:51 <slava> but this is still slick
16:48:53 <I440r> i need to investigate that
16:48:58 <I440r> the cursor IS there
16:49:07 <I440r> press cursor down about 20 times
16:49:11 <I440r> then press shift H
16:49:23 <slava> does nothing
16:49:24 <I440r> it still has bugs in it
16:49:34 <I440r> erm your computer is fubar lol
16:49:57 <slava> no, your terminfo parser is :)
16:50:01 <I440r> or my code is lol
16:50:09 <I440r> what distro ?
16:50:13 <slava> debian
16:50:22 <slava> recently i got factor running on mac intel
16:50:29 <I440r> cool
16:50:35 <slava> so i support three cpus and four oses
16:50:41 <I440r> i need to fix all these glitchifications in isforth :/
16:50:46 <slava> except for impossible combos like windows/ppc
16:50:56 <slava> oh wait, five oses, there's solaris support in there
16:51:25 <slava> isforth is nice, it needs an integrated editor and help reader
16:51:54 <I440r> im working on a block file editor but im not going to write a forth editor
16:52:01 <slava> heh
16:52:03 <slava> you like blocks?
16:52:15 <I440r> i planned on making isforth launch $EDITOR when you wanted to edit something
16:52:18 <slava> i was thinking variable-size blocks with tokenized source + shadow blocks with formatted docs would be nice
16:52:25 <I440r> i want my online help in block files
16:52:26 <slava> I440r: does isforth remember line #'s where words are defined?
16:52:35 <I440r> isforth uses variable sized blocks
16:52:45 <I440r> no
16:52:51 <slava> if you add that feature the rest is trivial
16:52:53 <I440r> thers no view fielkd
16:52:55 <I440r> field
16:53:24 <slava> what editor do you use?
16:53:27 <I440r> joe
16:53:32 <slava> heh
16:53:35 <slava> write an editor in forth
16:53:36 <I440r> its the only editor worth using in linux
16:53:39 <I440r> maybe
16:53:50 <I440r> its not high on my list of things to do tho
16:55:02 <slava> i'm writing an editor right now
16:55:10 <slava> its just a basic multiline text widget for a gui though
16:55:13 <I440r> port it to isforth hehe
16:55:26 <slava> you won't like it, it displays using opengl
16:55:33 <I440r> lol
16:56:05 <slava> anti-aliased text
16:56:19 <I440r> no sub pixle rendering ??? :)
16:56:31 <slava> yes, freetype can do that
16:56:42 <I440r> yea... they invented it ;)
16:57:45 <slava> i figured out a trick that will make my C lib calls faster
16:57:52 <I440r> yea ?
16:58:10 <slava> I440r: you should support /dev/fb instead of ncurses
16:58:22 <I440r> eventually
16:58:26 <slava> or SDL
16:58:31 <I440r> bleh
16:58:33 <slava> heh
16:58:40 <slava> framebuffer would be cool
16:58:41 <I440r> get x protocol first
16:58:44 <slava> ugh
16:59:02 <I440r> :)
16:59:08 <slava> i have an xlib binding with like 1000 words in it
16:59:10 <slava> its mostly complete
16:59:14 <I440r> actually i need to fix all the places where isforth barfs first
16:59:16 <slava> some structs and calls are missing
16:59:23 <slava> x11 sucks
16:59:28 <I440r> i wont touch xlib
16:59:32 <I440r> or libc
16:59:36 <slava> x protocol is no better to do by hand
16:59:38 <I440r> or ANY OTHER LIB
16:59:55 <slava> clx for common lisp doesn't call xlib
16:59:55 <I440r> yea thats what everyone told me about doing syscalls
16:59:59 <I440r> and that was bullshit too
17:00:13 <slava> what was the elf header bug
17:00:24 <I440r> its not a bug
17:00:31 <I440r> its a fucktard linux ld thing
17:00:39 <slava> C programs work :)
17:00:44 <I440r> this distro has an elf header of size 0x80
17:00:52 <I440r> that distro has an elf header of size 0xa0
17:01:04 <I440r> when im metacompiling i wont give a fuck what size LD uses
17:01:10 <I440r> because i wont be using LD at all
17:01:16 <slava> ok
17:01:31 <tcn> I bet it's a GCC 4.0 thing
17:01:45 <I440r> maybe
17:01:50 <I440r> its an inconsistency
17:01:50 <tcn> well at least they made it smaller
17:02:13 <tcn> gcc (GCC) 4.1.1
17:02:18 <tcn> header size 0x80
17:02:28 <I440r> which is CORRECT
17:02:36 <I440r> the other stuff belongs at the END of the file
17:02:39 <I440r> actually
17:02:48 <I440r> its perfectly ok for it to be where they put it
17:02:56 <I440r> its not outside the elf standard for it to be there
17:02:59 <I440r> its just annoying
17:03:58 <slava> I440r: eventually my C part will be reduced to basically an OS-independent dynamic linker
17:04:24 <tcn> I think kernel.asm:init_mem needs to look at the ELF header to get that number
17:04:25 <slava> I440r: its precisely to avoid this type of crap
17:04:39 <slava> I440r: if i can have an 8kb wrapper in C that saves trouble, its worth it :)
17:04:42 <slava> right now the runtime is ~100kb
17:04:49 <I440r> tcn yea i know i can do that
17:04:53 <I440r> but its cruft
17:05:01 <tcn> it won't add much
17:05:03 <I440r> thats not needed once im metacompiling
17:05:26 <tcn> you just can't ASSume it'll always be 0xA0
17:05:41 <I440r> its a post fsave runtime problem
17:05:55 <slava> did you start your assembler yeT?
17:06:00 <I440r> when you try run the result ive blown it up if the elf header isnt what i expect it to be
17:06:13 <I440r> when im metacompiling ill KNOW the exact size of my headers
17:06:24 <I440r> no im totally stuck on how to do the assembler
17:06:34 <tcn> I started a Python assembler
17:06:57 <I440r> i wont use any assembler that wont take the existing kernel sources + the aditiuon of some spaces here and there
17:07:14 <I440r> the colon defs in the kernel will of corse be converted to REAL colon defs
17:07:24 <slava> so how much assembly remains?
17:07:24 <I440r> but i wont hack the coded defs AT ALL
17:07:42 <I440r> about 60% of the kernel is assembler i think
17:09:03 <I440r>  mov eax, [ebx]  converted to move eax, [ ebx ]  is an acceptable edit
17:09:09 <tcn> hey, I have a 7k ELF loader written in C.. and it does linking & relocation too
17:09:15 <tcn> so stop complaining :)
17:09:18 <I440r> heh
17:09:35 <slava> I440r: my assembler doesn't read ahead from the input because the compiler allocates registers and so has to pass them on the stack
17:09:36 <I440r> could you recode it in isforth and let isforth dynamically link to libc ??? :)
17:09:37 <I440r> ugh
17:09:43 <I440r> i dont want it but some users might
17:09:52 <slava> so that code example looks like  EAX EBX [] MOV
17:10:13 <I440r> i wont use ANYTHING except standard intex syntax plus a few spaces
17:10:22 <I440r> i hate backwrds assemblers in forth
17:10:28 <I440r> as much as i hate ans forth
17:10:35 <slava> mine isn't designed for users writing large swaths of assembler, though. its just there for the compiler
17:10:36 <I440r> but thats not the problem
17:10:41 <I440r> brb
17:11:16 <tcn> he needs a special parser written in forth
17:17:26 <tcn> shift-reduce parser.. faster than top-down.. but complicated
17:18:08 <tcn> if you can use the "shunting yard algorithm" to parse intel asm, then it's not so complicated
17:23:16 <Quartus> Why hate postfix assemblers?
17:23:35 <I440r> back
17:24:17 <I440r> because i cant get my head arround them - before i was ever a forth coder i was an assembler coder
17:24:25 <Quartus> It's not a huge conceptual shift.
17:24:28 <I440r> on ANY processor
17:24:46 <Quartus> I started way back on traditional assemblers too, but postfix assemblers aren't hard to adjust to.
17:24:53 <I440r> no. im not modifying my existing sources just to accomodate an assembler
17:24:58 <I440r> not worht my time
17:25:57 <I440r> plus then i have to learn a whole new syntax and that just adds inordinate ammounts of confusion factor
17:25:59 <I440r> does
17:26:09 <I440r> eax ebx move move eax to ebx or does it move ebx to eax ?
17:26:11 <I440r> bah
17:26:23 <Quartus> A question asked and answered once.
17:26:41 <I440r> i do not like backwards assemblers
17:26:42 <tcn> well, I've got other stuff to do.. see ya
17:26:46 <I440r> never have and never will
17:27:00 <I440r> i dont like asn forth bullshit either 
17:27:05 <I440r> never have and never will
17:27:25 <slava> no need to get so agitated :)
17:27:29 <I440r> i have a very exact image of what i want in isforth and im working towards it
17:27:44 <I440r> not agitated - just emphatic
17:28:09 <slava> hey i'm going to add support for having the caret beyond EOL here
17:28:11 <Quartus> It would be pleasant if you could discuss your reasoning surrounding such things without resorting to chanting dogmatic refusals.
17:28:40 <I440r> how about i dont want anything i dont like
17:28:49 <I440r> i told you i have a very exact picture of what i want.
17:29:07 <Quartus> Yes, and when anybody tries to discuss it with you you behave like a stampy two-year-old.
17:29:34 <I440r> not so
17:29:51 <I440r> i DO get defensive when other people get OFFENSIVE however
17:29:58 <I440r> like the above statement
17:30:21 <Quartus> Go ahead, chant some more, get it out of your system.
17:30:41 <I440r> seems to me like you are being deliberatly antagonistic here
17:31:28 <Quartus> Just tired of you bringing up issues in a discussion forum, and then answering any attempts at discussion with a wall of dogmatic noise.
17:31:52 <Quartus> If you don't want to discuss things, don't bring 'em up.  It's not like you're willing to admit any new ideas into your universe anyway.
17:32:01 <I440r> and im tired of answering the same questions over and over about why i dont want this or that or why i DO what this or that
17:32:11 <I440r> why do i need to defend MY fucking decisions to YOU
17:34:54 <I440r> i dont sell my forth compiler nor do i hide my sources. maybe my compiler isnt as complete as yours
17:34:58 <I440r> but its MY compiler
17:35:12 <I440r> so what i want for it is what I want for it
17:35:15 <I440r> nuff sed
17:38:12 <slava> i like isforth because it is so different to other forths :)
17:38:31 <I440r> not so different from fpc
17:38:37 <slava> never used it
17:38:41 <I440r> tho... its not a 16 bit forth of corse
17:39:02 <slava> did fpc have an editor?
17:39:07 <I440r> yes
17:39:11 <slava> block?
17:39:13 <I440r> not a bad one either
17:39:31 <I440r> no flat file
17:40:23 <slava> how did it work?
17:41:22 <I440r> i didnt try figure it out
17:44:22 <I440r> and its not new ideas i object to - isforth has ALOT of new ideas
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